T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recording

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 18 Jul 2010, 14:36

He is performing tomorrow... but I don't think you are in Chennai?

No, I am thousands of miles away from Chennai.
Feel free to record the concert for us in case you are going...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jul 2010, 15:16

Please courier me a ragam-talam face mask --- so I can impersonate you

No... its a jugalbandi, on which I'm not so keen, anyway. I shan't go. Mind you, wasn't it Harimau that gave us the idea of concert attendance as anthropological/sociological experiment? Perhaps I should research the experience of a TMK concert!

I say nothing on musical grounds. There is only one carnatic artist, so far, whose music I actually don't like, and it is not TMK --- and not am I going to say, online, who it is.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 18 Jul 2010, 15:22

Tut, tut - see what all that curd rice has done to you!

C'mon Nick - keep up the spirit of the Old Blighty going!
On second thoughts, you're right - don't waste your time with such mediocre stuff. Esp of the jugalbandi variety.

I would have to drag myself to do the recording. Plus, I will be doing it pro bono! (meaning, you would normally have to pay me to attend his concert)
But all for a good cause, I guess.

laks1972 · Post by **laks1972** » 18 Jul 2010, 16:04

Nick H wrote:
In terms of internet sharing, it leaves us with a warning to know where the site is hosted, and thus what law applies. This one is hosted in USA --- where the law is fierce and the penalties substantial.

Nick,

that is not the case

If the site is hosted in USA it is even less of an issue. Sites like rasikas.org and sangeethapriya are protected by DMCA safe harbour clause which is applicable in the USA. That is how rapidshare, youtube and another dozen file sharing sites get away without being sued for so many copyrighted clips that get uploaded daily.

As per DMCA, if such a copyrighted material is uploaded to an internet site such as those mentioned above, the only thing the site has to do to become compliant is to remove the infringing content when a infringement notice is served by the legal copyright owner of the content.

Which shifts the onus of identifying such an infringing content , satsifying the requirement of legal copyright ownership of the content and communication to the site admin , all rest with the copyright owner.

So any user can upload anything to these sites and the sites are not held responsible for the content that the users upload.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jul 2010, 16:11

Thanks for that.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 18 Jul 2010, 16:57

--

Sorry, edited to delete a link which is superfluous.

I still think they way they came across was wrong. The message conveyed valid.

The choices are

1. Take up the legal challenge, record and see what the law says.
2. Go to their concerts and not record.
3. Ignore their concerts.

It wont be the first or last legal case in the history of CM. Still a long way to go before beating the case which involved a sishya suing his guru for not teaching him properly.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Jul 2010, 20:47

the case which involved a sishya suing his guru for not teaching him properly.

Interesting.

Mahesh, which one is that?

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 18 Jul 2010, 20:51

Nick, my father says:

"The sabha/org is essentially the venue for the performance. No copyright exists over the performers rights. The sabha/org merely has a contract with the performer in consideration of a fee to do a performance. The contract is mutually exclusive - the performer and or the sabha/org - may have an understanding as to how the performance be conducted - no photography, no recording. There is no copyright attached to that contract. The invitees/fee paying patrons maybe bound by the rules as a condition of entry. Any breach thereof does not constitute a breach of copyright when none existed. At the very most they may ask the patron to leave - they cannot call the police as this is a private function and there is no breach of the peace."

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 18 Jul 2010, 21:37

Indian Express plays a "beautiful cover drive".

Ragas, royalties, rasikas and robbers - T K Sreevalsan
First Published : 18 Jul 2010 10:26:00 AM IST

http://expressbuzz.com/magazine/ragas,- ... 90283.html

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 18 Jul 2010, 21:45

>>
they cannot call the police as this is a private function and there is no breach of the peace."<<

Well, if you are asked to leave and you refuse the sabha can call the police. It is unlawful behavior in a private property. Suppose you come to my home either by invitation or just on your own and "misbehave" in my eyes or get into an altercation with another guest, I will ask you to leave. If you refuse I can and will call the police. The police will respond. So, the sabha has its rules. When you go there your, implied contract (whether you read the rules or not) is you'd conduct yourself as per the decorum expected by the sabha.

Let us say the musician made the announcement at the start (or the sabha has written rules in their books prohibitng recording by the audience) that there shall be no recording of any kind other than what he has agreed to with the sabha, then it does not matter whether you heard the announcement or not. The sabha bouncer (if you let me use that term) can escort you out, just like they do in the bars. Copyright does not come into the picture at all in this instance.

There lies a simple solution to this controversy. The musician makes the announcement and the sabha enforces it. The rules of the sabha preempt the provision for recording for personal use. If the person wants to record the concert he has to do it outside the property limits of the sabha (in the street where the traffic noise will trump the concert noise (er, I mean nAdam).

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 18 Jul 2010, 22:04

vasanthakokilam wrote: the case which involved a sishya suing his guru for not teaching him properly.
Interesting.

Mahesh, which one is that?

It's in one of the Garland books, I have them to hand. Let me see if I can find it

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Jul 2010, 22:25

mahakavi - I also agree - this is actually not that complicated a problem as long as there is a business framework at play (which I suspect isnt that strong and thus is part of the problem).

This is how I see it (a non-lawyer and so this is still in a speculative realm - albeit I hope somewhat carefully thought out one

)
1. Musician(s) should have some business agreement with sabha about allowability recording(s) - this cannot be an informal vocal agreement - should be a contract. Note that even in the absence of such an agreement/contract, the sabha itself can have a rule against it since it owns the premises and can set rules (which dont violate basic fundamental/constitutional rights)
2. Sabha should convey this clearly (announcements/notice boards/rules on the ticket stub etc. are sufficient)
3. Any person recording then is in violation of 1 and 2, and can then be asked to stop so on clear legal grounds. Person refusing so (on fundamental rights etc.) can be ejected, with force if required, and using police (since at that time he/she can be deemed to be causing disturbance) etc. That person still can contest in the court citing provisions in copyright, fundamental rights etc.. I would wager that in most countries (including India) he/she will have zero chance of winning, if the 1 and 2 were followed. In most countries with no clause for personal recordings, you are dead, but even in India I would wager that 1 and 2 means you lose, unless it is somehow proven that the rules are "unconstitutional" i.e violates some fundamental right of citizen. I would be surprised if this is the case.

Now in the absence of either 1, and 2 (which I guess does exist nowadays in Chennai) i.e in clear legal terms (they are not that hard to put in place), it would be harder to say in India "you cannot record AT ALL because it is my copyright" - because India seems to allow for a private recording, and as long as you dont profit from it, you may be ok. But whether that applies to a concert in concert hall (as opposed to recording a radio broadcast, making a backup of a CD you bought etc.) I do not now. Also, there is the issue of "dissemination to a very wide audience" (i.e. sangeethapriya, musicindiaonline etc.). At least in US, this can be stopped because the copyright does belong to performer - even for such "non-commercial" recordings, and if the artist asks so (and is able to establish this), the site would be obligated to remove else face legal action.

BTW, i believe 1 and 2 are standard stuff in US and other countries. Anyone recording when these are in place clearly knows it isnt legal

- but in US there are other things (like making a backup copy) which isnt legal that many thing ought to be.

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jul 2010, 22:52

Bilahari, thanks again to your father.

As mentioned, I use to work with pictures. British copyright law has seen some revision since then so my information is not up to date, but the principles probably still hold good. The copyright in the picture is an entirely different property to the picture itself, and buying the original from the artist never includes the copyright unless that is specified in writing.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 19 Jul 2010, 06:36

arunk wrote:
mahakavi - I also agree - this is actually not that complicated a problem as long as there is a business framework at play (which I suspect isnt that strong and thus is part of the problem).

This is how I see it (a non-lawyer and so this is still in a speculative realm - albeit I hope somewhat carefully thought out one )
1. Musician(s) should have some business agreement with sabha about allowability recording(s) - this cannot be an informal vocal agreement - should be a contract. Note that even in the absence of such an agreement/contract, the sabha itself can have a rule against it since it owns the premises and can set rules (which dont violate basic fundamental/constitutional rights)
2. Sabha should convey this clearly (announcements/notice boards/rules on the ticket stub etc. are sufficient)

.........

BTW, i believe 1 and 2 are standard stuff in US and other countries. Anyone recording when these are in place clearly knows it isnt legal - but in US there are other things (like making a backup copy) which isnt legal that many thing ought to be.

Arun

This issue has been thrashed out in US courts.

The US makes a clear distinction between a contractor employed by an organization and an employee for hire.

In case of intellectual property developed by a contractor, unless there is explicit wording in the contract to the contrary, all intellectual property rights vest in the contractor. In the case of employees, all intellectual property developed while in the employment of a company belongs to the company (albeit with some quibbles about if it was done on company time, property, using company equipment, etc.)

The issue then becomes: is a person a contractor to a company/organization or is he an employee for hire?

The courts have determined that even when only a contractual relationship exists between a person providing a service and an entity paying for and receiving the service, the person performing the service may become an "employee for hire" under certain conditions.

Under current law, any person visiting the US on a Performer's visa is an "employee for hire" of the entity that sponsors him for the visa; no ifs, ands, or buts. Thus, a Carnatic musician from Chennai or a pole dancer from Russia (both of whom abound in the US and can be found in Chicago as well as in San Diego) are equally restrained from claiming any copyright over their performances. Their performances belong to their sponsors, the sponsor being the entity that petitioned for the visa in the first place and not the local music sabha or the local bar respectively in the case of the Carnatic musician and the pole dancer. Hence, you can go with your camcorder and/or audio recorder to either of these places (the sabha or the bar) and record the performance if the visa sponsor does not object. You will be able to get your way at the sabha though I strongly suspect that the bar's owner would think you are an underground policeman trying to record violations of local ordinances on indecency and have the bouncer throw you out after violently mishandling you.

As fas as I know, all the local sabhas in the US record the performances of visiting artists and make copies available to their members/general public for free or fee. I myself have copies of performances from places as diverse as Seattle, Detroit, Philadelphia, etc. Sri Siva-Vishnu Temple of Washington, DC displays racks of CDs containing concerts performed there for sale to the public. It would indeed be most interesting to read of a case in the Maryland District Court, Vijay Siva and T. M. Krishna v Trustees of the Sri Siva-Vishnu Temple , should the pair decide to make an example of an entity that in their opinion infringes on their copyright, though that title is not as entertaining as would be cases titled Vijay Siva v Lord Siva or T. M. Krishna v Lord Krishna!

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 19 Jul 2010, 07:41

The Maryland District Court, Vijay Siva and T. M. Krishna v Trustees of the Sri Siva-Vishnu Temple , should the pair decide to make an example of an entity that in their opinion infringes on their copyright, though that title is not as entertaining as would be cases titled Vijay Siva v Lord Siva or T. M. Krishna v Lord Krishna!

How 'bout Sri Siva-Vishnu v Sri Siva and Sri Krishna

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Jul 2010, 07:53

@harimau - Interesting. Thanks.

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 19 Jul 2010, 08:09

I have been reading this thread quietly till now. Here is my somewhat blunt take.

To those people that insist that they have a fundamental, legal right to record with or without the permission of the artist: You are no better than me who cannot control the mind-monkey during the concert. You sit there fiddling with your recording device instead of concentrating on the task at hand: losing yourself in the music. You are going to do something similar when 'listening' to your precious recording later.

If TMK/VS are wrong, you are doubly wrong. You have no right but to sit quietly and listen, and not disturb others with your antics.

Well, you have one right. To expect a wicker chair without bed-bugs (mooTTai-poochi). One more: decent air-conditioning. Third: comfortable speaker volume.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Jul 2010, 09:52

You sit there fiddling with your recording device instead of concentrating on the task at hand: losing yourself in the music

Would you like to accuse me of never attending to the music because I have a packet of sesame balls with me in a concert?

There may be one or two who prefer the gadgetry to the performance; many, probably, do not give it a second thought between "on" and "off" --- you paint with too broad a brush. For those who fuss continually, yes, they probably fuss over the playback too!

Have to admit, though, that I do not want to be bothered with the electronic gadget at all when at a concert. This is one of the reasons that I seldom record.

Progress in technology, with high-capacity memory cards, etc, increasingly allows recording without having to fuss over the machine.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 19 Jul 2010, 14:09

I guess what has galled a lot of folks is not whether TMK and VS were correct from a legal standpoint. I don't know and I don't care about the legality of the issue.

The real thing is, avarice and a calculative mindset are not exactly attributes that you readily associate a Carnatic musician with. A Carnatic kutcheri is not your western pop concert in the sense that in the latter, it is well understood that the musician is there to make a commercial profit. But in a Carnatic kutcheri, there is a certain spiritual touch to the music, and people are apt to assume that the performer of this music is also one who has imbibed those spiritual qualities. Any action or utterance by the artist which indicates anything contrary to this assumption is bound to arouse a feeling of disgust among rasikas. And that is what has happened here.

But I guess the times are a-changing and artists are now in it more for the money than anything else.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 19 Jul 2010, 14:58

Much has been written about the issue and glad that TMK has come with further explanation and a fee download concert. Thanks to him. But many times the artists themselves seek copies of their concerts. I would like to quote two incidences
It was some time in 1983 or 84 January 1. Swati Tirunal Sangeetha Sabha, TVM organised Purandaradasar Day concert of MLV with majority of them Purandaradas Kritis. Vocal support by Ms Sudha Raghunathan, Violin by Ms Kanyakumari. Mridangom I donot remember. It was a brilliant concert with Thodi as Main (Ninna nodi dhanyananeno of PD) and RTP in Kedaragowla- Sree Purandaragurum vande Dasa Shreshtam dayanidhim. I recorded the concert sitting in the audience with a small two in one in my lap not distrubing any one- not fiddling in between as somedbody has pointed out. The recording came reasonably well.Just after the concert, the Sabha Secretary called me from the stage. I was worried that my tapes will be confiscated. ( I did not take permission and from my experience, no artiste will give permission if asked). When I went to the stage, Ms Sudha and Ms KK handed me two casettes and requested me for a copy of the concert to be delivered in their hotel next day morning. I came home , borrowed another tape recorder from a friend, copied the concert through the night and delivered in Hotel Woodlands next day morning while going to office.
Another incident. KVN had sung the Uthsava Prabandham songs of Swati Tirunal in the AIR TVM with only tambura ccompaniment,. During the days of the Uthsavam in Padmanabhaswamy temple, this was relayed in the AIR at morning 6 AM in Udaya Geetham (the song and verses pertaining to that day). One year, I woke up daily at 6 AM and recorded the same continuously. It is a priceless treasure.Very shortly after KVN's demise, his friend in TVM who is my friend also, called me in Kolkata where I was put up at that time and said that Mrs KVN wants to have a copy of the same and it is not even now available with AIR, TVM. I copied in casette and couriered. It is because some of us are recording , it is available for posterity or the artists themselves when they need. There are many more such occasions.
IMHO, such types of recording will not affect CD sales. First, we will not attend to all the concerts and record them. Secondly even with the present day devices, it will not give you studio quality recording. So intense listeners will prefer to buy the CDs. Secondly, this is not a substitute for live concert experience. If I record one concert today, it will induce me to attend the next concert expecting that I may get a better musical experience.
Lastly I will say that through giving of my tapes for hearing, I have made many people as rasikas of concert music and I have helped some people to upgrade their level of listening.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 19 Jul 2010, 19:54

CRama: you make excellent points. My feeling on all this is that we serious rasikas will (and should) continue to record valuable music for posterity, while the rogue elements out there will go on bringing out spurious CDs and pocket the money for themselves. Sensible artistes will understand our point of view, while a few of them, who mistakenly think we are eating into their revenues, will keeping raising such 'issues'. Hopefully the latter group can develop the maturity to figure out who are wolves in sheep's clothings.

Another point - I have observed that several sabha organisers (in Madras at least) are so lackadaisical in the way they conduct concerts, that they hardly take any interest in the quality of the audio system, leave alone recording the concerts! If it were not for committed rasikas who do record them, many of the classic concerts would never have come to light!

TMK refers to the CM 'eco system' that's under fire from those who record concerts. Really? Then he has no clue about what the true eco system is all about. Our music lives in live concerts. Much like a magic show that no amount of copying can destroy, the live concert experience will live on. Now if he is talking about being able to display on his homepage things like "1 million CDs sold" etc, he is in the wrong business. If you take a look at his page you can see all that bombastic hard sell already there, so my feeling is that this is what he is aiming for.

Having said all this, I do respect TMK's vidwat. Two examples of recent video clips that I highly recommend are below. Now, if only he could combine that vidwat with some vinayam and humility! I sincerely wish him all the best on this front.
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFZkI5SYCys - the transition to Begada is lovely!
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmyylyzasS0 - the only jarring part is when he talks about bhakthi etc. Pleeeease!

Btw, can the admins consolidate the few threads on this topic that have been spawned already, before things become unwieldy? Thanks.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jul 2010, 20:14

I think another aspect is students training from these bootleg recordings... I know for a fact that Sri. Vijay Siva's concert recordings from the 90s were duplicated and distributed rampantly and were used as training material by a number of gurus... Of course without any attribution and recognition

I have a number of these myself...

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 19 Jul 2010, 20:45

R-T

"Our music lives in live concerts. Much like a magic show that no amount of copying can destroy, the live concert experience will live on."

"If it were not for committed rasikas who do record them, many of the classic concerts would never have come to light!".

Hmm, contradictory. And what's wrong with putting 1 million CD's sales on his website? Why is he in the wrong business? I don't understand. He wants to make money. It's his business, he had mouths to feed, he has to look at saving for the future, like everybody else. He is NO different that any other professional. It's like telling a software programmer, you are using Open Source, therefore you cannot expect payment for the software you have written.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jul 2010, 23:33

MaheshS wrote:
Much like a magic show that no amount of copying can destroy, the live concert experience will live on."

Some might say that the excessive copying of magic shows on TV has all but destroyed it.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Jul 2010, 23:50

...Only when they have used the copies to discover how the tricks were done!

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 20 Jul 2010, 00:32

Nick H wrote:...Only when they have used the copies to discover how the tricks were done!

Which would be akin to "learning" and is protected by by the Indian Copyright Law of 1957

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 20 Jul 2010, 02:49

MaheshS wrote:Hmm, contradictory.

I wish people could read with some intelligence. It's frustrating having to explain basic writing.

And what's wrong with putting 1 million CD's sales on his website?

What's ok for burgers may not be appropriate for our classical music. And if you aim for similar results, you could end up making your music into burgers.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 20 Jul 2010, 03:19

ragam-talam wrote:What's ok for burgers may not be appropriate for our classical music. And if you aim for similar results, you could end up making your music into burgers.

Hey, so YOU decide what's good for OUR " classical music" ? Didn't know that. You think for yourself R-T. I can think for me

And for god's sake, don't speak for the rest.

And please do explain basic writing. I tried reading with "intelligence", but what do I know? You aim for music and you get burgers.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 Jul 2010, 03:52

American expression probably,"steak is much better than burger" - not a good expression for brahmins

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Jul 2010, 13:13

I did wonder.

I know that some, worldwide are not quite as stringent about diet as they might want others to believe --- at least when outside the house!

Of course, that wouldn't apply to any member of this forum

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 20 Jul 2010, 15:50

The entire discussion assumes that the law becomes applicable if there is recording caused to be done of a public performance. Infringement of a right has to be established by filing a case as prescribed in the act and the facts and circumstances of the case have to be relied upon by the complainant to establish infringement in line with case law precedence.It would be for the concerned court to decide whether an infringement has been caused based on the circumstances ,precedences ,act and conduct of the parties.The forum to decide whether a right has been infringed is the concerned court and not personal conjectures.Years back a performer saw a critic whose reviews were often pungent and critical of performances. The performer called the sabha officials and informed that if the critic was present the performance would not commence.The Sabha officials simply informed the performer that he was duty bound to perform and they were in no position to evict the critic as he had purchased a ticket and his right could not be abrogated.The performer was either asked to commence the performance or they would make a public announcement that the performer refused to perform and the program was abandoned. The performance started subsequently. In tax laws there is a provision to refer questions of law between disputing parties and obtain an advance ruling, in limited circumstances. This ruling in so far as the disputing parties are concerned is final and bindingand no court including the Apex court interfere with this ruling Trademarks and Copyright lawyers can advise if such a provision exists in the relevant laws and if so the questions raised in the articles could be posed as legal issues and a ruling be obtained .This would give a very clear picture of the legal position of the issues under discussion. Ragjay

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 20 Jul 2010, 15:52

Nick H wrote: Of course, that wouldn't apply to any member of this forum

Nick, assume nothing

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 20 Jul 2010, 18:05

Ragjay wrote:The entire discussion assumes that the law becomes applicable if there is recording caused to be done of a public performance. Infringement of a right has to be established by filing a case as prescribed in the act and the facts and circumstances of the case have to be relied upon by the complainant to establish infringement in line with case law precedence.It would be for the concerned court to decide whether an infringement has been caused based on the circumstances ,precedences ,act and conduct of the parties........................Trademarks and Copyright lawyers can advise if such a provision exists in the relevant laws and if so the questions raised in the articles could be posed as legal issues and a ruling be obtained .This would give a very clear picture of the legal position of the issues under discussion. Ragjay

Ragjay:
You summed it up very well. When there is an "infraction" the person who feels aggrieved/affected has to file a case. If a random rasika goes to a concert, records it, and runs away, the aggrieved party has no recourse unless the identity of the person is known and evidence of his recording has been established by witnesses. The reason why TMK/VS are posturing is because it will be an expensive proposition to go to court even if the "culprit" is apprehended. They want to avoid that route. Besides, TMK has softened his tone now in his website. So let us be honor-bound to accede to this request.

Regarding the latter part of your comment, the so-called arbitration can set in only when a case has been filed at which point they can resort to arbitration and settle the case out of court. Also if the suit is between two organizations that process is possible. But even assuming such an arbitration is possible, how do you deal with future "infractions" by every other rasika who starts it anew? The only sure solution for this is for a determined rasika to defy the musician and record the concert (and not run away after recording) and for the musician to file a court case. The verdict would then either negate the musician's claims or forever forbid the recording. It can also be mixed verdict. Armchair theorizing is of no use at this point.

Even if a court ruling can be applied on the validity of the claims, it has to be done only after a case is filed. A judge cannot give a ruling in a hypothetical case (like you get a private ruling in a tax situation---I can state my specific circumstances and get a tax ruling from the IRS in the US). Besides, that ruling (if at all possible) is binding only between those two parties. Unless there is a law, which is also backed by court verdicts, private ruling is not an option.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 20 Jul 2010, 19:16

I happened to look at the original TMK-VS article again...

gosh, some of the recent comments there indicate it's gone a bit out of control!
>>mdrgnb: "copy right of sangathis should remain with the teacher and passed on to the direct student (not-tape) student."<<
Copyright for sangathis!! What will they think of next, copyright on korvais??

And there's a bit of confusion as to the 'real' Anand Siva! Is he a brother of VS? (I know VS has a brother named Manoj Siva, the mridangam artiste.)

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 20 Jul 2010, 19:26

r-t:
Pl don't bother with the comments section of that article. Lot of them are written by imposters and you can't tell who is the imposter and who is the real one either. The article is real and possibly a few comments. I would not pay attention to many comments there, especially with names resembling those of artistes.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 20 Jul 2010, 19:34

What copyrights are they talking about and what is debated here. It is so complex!!!!!

Tere Bin Laden (a latest Hindi movie) is already available for downloads. Any latest hindi movie songs are available for d/l from a site hosted in pakistan. Rolex watches are available for 5% of the normal price (look alike). Louis vuitton bags - the same. Go to Bangkok / Nepal - U get them in the streets and you cannot make out the difference. What are big corporates doing to preotect their interest. Nothing much - Once a while they trash it with a bull dozer on the high street. Are they able to control it. A BIG no. Therefore copying should not in anyway affect the sales of their music. Have they done any analysis to conclude on the impact !! It is all wishy washy statements made!

With the advent of tecnology and complexities it is difficult to control.

I guess we are all wasting our time debating such stupid but complex issue.

If they have confidence in their music, they should not be perturbed by what the audience is doing. Take artists like MDR / MMI or Voleti, heir music wa so intense and they were immersed in their music to such an extent that they would not have realized what was happening around them. WHERE ARE THESE ARTISTS TODAY. Happy listening to those GREAT GRAND MASTERS and do not get tickled by what these musicians write in the press

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 20 Jul 2010, 19:46

I agree, fduddy...all this is time pass!
I am reminded of the Zen saying "If a tree falls down in a forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Jul 2010, 20:19

ragam-talam wrote: And there's a bit of confusion as to the 'real' Anand Siva! Is he a brother of VS? (I know VS has a brother named Manoj Siva, the mridangam artiste.)

I thought you knew better... j/k ... Yeah, as mk said, do not trust any of the names in the comments..

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 20 Jul 2010, 22:53

Mahakavi I am not talking of arbitration . I am talking of a reference. There is an authority under the tax laws called Advance ruling authority, when ever a questions of law are referred to it they give a ruling which is binding The authority is headed by a Supreme Court Judge and their ruling as regards questions of law are final. I was wondering if such a provision is there in the Copyright Act then the questions raised in the article could be framed as questions of law and referred and a ruling obtained which would spell out the correct legal position for our understanding Ragjay

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Jul 2010, 23:16

Ragjay, we have a professional lawyer's opinion on the thread. That is good enough, I think, for most of us.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 21 Jul 2010, 01:38

Ragjay wrote:Mahakavi I was wondering if such a provision is there in the Copyright Act then the questions raised in the article could be framed as questions of law and referred and a ruling obtained which would spell out the correct legal position for our understanding Ragjay

Yes, I understood that too. Even if such a ruling is possible, it will not solve the problem. Whom is it binding? All the rasikas? How will they come to know if some Tom or Dick wants to record in the future? A ruling is not like a statute. It still can be contested in a court because all the specifics cannot be considered in a particular ruling as the ruling will only take into consideration some premises which will differ enormously as technology advances. I don't think this issue is that burning for any court to consider such ruling when so many heavy issues are languishing in the judicial forum.

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 21 Jul 2010, 10:24

Mahakavi Such rulings have been relied upon by the Supreme Court in handing down judgments,hence if rulings spell out the legal position of an issue in clear terms they are taken as precedence.The fact that such rulings bring finality to legal issues and even the Supreme Courts accept such rulings as final in so far as disputes are concerned . Regards Ragjay

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Jul 2010, 14:40

Who are you suggesting should take this to court? Litigation is not much fun, nor is it cheap!

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 21 Jul 2010, 19:33

Nick , My intention is not to file a case only make a reference of the questions raised as legal questions and get a ruling with reference to the article. By the way these rulings carry the weight of a court judgment and are relied upon by the highest court to further decide similar issues. the procedure is also summary.Only question to examine is whether the Copyright Act permits such a reference. Please mail my off line your telephone number so that we can speak on this issue It would be my pleasure to contact you ,my id is [email protected] Regards Ragjay

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 23 Jul 2010, 18:28

Interesting article on a related topic: Who, What, Why: Can a joke be copyrighted?
"However, Mr Harris adds that were the joke sufficiently similar to the one allegedly being plagiarised, the burden of proof would fall on the defendant rather than the complainant to demonstrate that he or she came up with the idea alone."

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 25 Jul 2010, 09:41

@uini......

the only thing that struck me was how do you manage to type in your username all the time?

)

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 25 Jul 2010, 14:41

Lovely article at cool-ji's blog. Lalgudi sir's words speak for themselves:
And I thought you guys were thieves !!!

We heard it in absolute silence and at last he took my hand gently.

"I used to think of you guys (ones who record) as thieves. In hindsight, it is clear that you have been working as historians.

Thanks for bringing me back a piece of my golden phase. Ah!! We musicians should be blessed with two Janmas.

You know why? Just as we realise that our minds have mastered the Art, we feel the pain of our bodies on the decline .And not being able to keep up with our thoughts.

Thank you dear. Now If you dont mind I will have these for myself."

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 25 Jul 2010, 15:04

And read this one for good measure. Another beauty from the desk of cool-ji:
http://chennairasika.wordpress.com/2010 ... us-colony/

My reverie was interrupted by one of the organisers who started scolding me for recording on the sly.
Soon there was a commotion around me.
...
Hearing the commotion, TSB peered towards the audience: What is happening there?
The lights on the stage were blinding him and so he could not see. So they took me near the dais. Leading me as though to a Guillotine. And that genial Vidwan cranes his neck to get a look at me andâ€¦..
Starts bursting into laughter.
â€Now what is the problem with you man? Look at this kid . The only guy who has black hair on his head here. All the rest of you have gone grey, but without the wisdom. Look again at this kid. He is our future!
Whyâ€¦..We should be welcoming him. Come near, Dear Boy, and record to your heart's content. What did you say your name was? Kulkarni? Another surprise!!! You have made my dayâ€¦.

I wish the VS-s and TMK-s of this world would read this.
And I hope the long and great tradition of rasikas recording concerts continues well into the future.
Future generations will be grateful for the work they do.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Jul 2010, 18:19

I used to think of you guys (ones who record) as thieves. In hindsight, it is clear that you have been working as historians.

Who else but LGJ can make such a statement!
...and who else but (our) coolkarni to whom such words be spoken!

I am simply touched!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 26 Jul 2010, 16:15

mankuthimma wrote:
Say a silent prayer in tribute for the likes of Kalavardhini who have been the first to acknowedge the need to showcase lesser known names .
Not convinced ? Drop in at karnatic Music store and You will find kalavardhini Cds at throwaway price of Rs 10 !!!
Names like Panthula, Vardhini , Jayaprada flute and so many more deserving artists.
If you are not careful you may be stepping on some of those cds hastily dumped in the lower shelves
Situation is quite complex with the music Companies having to sell and sell big time.
I find it strange that all those chaps who appear here to sell their labels are quiet on this subject

To paraphrase a different statement, never attribute to generosity what can be adequately explained by commercial considerations.

Kalavardhini is what would be called a vanity press in the US. A vanity press is one which would print and publish your magnum opus on any subject for a quite considerable fee.

Anyone can approach Kalavardhini and have their music recorded and published. Kalavardhini would take a fixed amount of money per CD produced with some minimum off-take quantity guaranteed by the musician. The musician can then sell the CDs on his own for whatever the market will bear.

When the currently popular Ranjani-Gayathri duo were trying to break into the vocal market in 2000 or so, they got Kalavardhini to produce a couple of CDs where they sing and also play the violin accompaniment. They produced a violin duet CD also under the Kalavardhini label. All because no commercial recording company would release any CDs by them.

The popular Akkarai Subbulakshmi has a couple of CDs under the Kalavardhini label. Clearly, there is no market for a violin solo by someone tagged as an accompanying artist.

So, if you saw a CD by any artist under the Kalavardhini label, you can be sure that the artist paid for the production of that CD as no recording company wanted to publish their music.

Almost all of today's musicians have no choice but to go to a Kalavardhini or other vanity publisher to get their music known to the public.

If these CDs are now on sale for Rs 10, that would be because the store wants to get rid of the slow-moving stock and has essentially "remaindered" the stock at a throw-away price. The list price would be Rs 125 or Rs 150.

While Kalavardhini is a well-known vanity publisher, almost all the recording companies have done vanity publishing at one time or another.