Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

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bhavarasa
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Joined: 11 Nov 2009, 02:57

Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by bhavarasa »

I read an article on MSNBC last year.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25418919/

on people that were tone deaf vs. people that are tone mute. As a music teacher, you want obviously want students who can are neither. But how does one come to the conclusion that the student (especially young kids just starting to learn music) are good candidates for further instruction? More important, how do you tell when some kid is not and how do you let the kid and his/her parents know that music just ain't the thing for their kid? Is there a cutoff period when you have heard enough and can't anymore?

Interesting anecdote. There once was a music teacher (in the US) who was good at teaching young children. She started a new batch with 4 kids, one of whom was a young boy (5yrs old). This kid's mom used to sit right behind him during class and encourage him. A couple of months passed and 3 of the 4 kids had moved onto janta varusai, except for our little buddy here who was still being asked to sing Sarali Varusai. His mom got agitated and confronted the music teacher asking thus: "Why are you not letting my boy sing Janta Varusai? He is singing the entire Sarali varusai without looking at the book and without forgetting any notes AND with no errors". What was painfully hard for the teacher to explain to the mother was that the boy couldn't even sing Sa Pa Sa with the right swarasthAnams and that he was merely "reading" the notes and not singing them. Now what was hilariously funny to me as an observer of all this drama was that Mom was tone deaf too because if not she wouldn't have confronted the teacher.

I laughed but is being tone deaf/mute akin to being visually or mentally handicapped and so is it wrong on my part to laugh?

Anyhow... looking forward to the discussion and your own stories ;)

VK RAMAN
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by VK RAMAN »

Some are born tone deaf/mute and they believe singing whatever way is OK. God will accept it.

Nick H
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by Nick H »

I am a sad victim of the assumption that not being able to sing accurately indicates tone deafness.

OK, I have never claimed to have an very accurate ear, but I would have loved to have learnt an instrument, or at least had the chance to study some theory, as a child --- but, I could not sing, so did not have the opportunity.

hariniraghavan
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by hariniraghavan »

Actually if you have the interest and some bit of talent you can start learbning at any age. I know of a few persons who really started learning after 30-35 years. You can still pick it up. There are some who start at a very early age, yet they can never over come apaswaram and can never align themselves to the sruti.
Harini.

mankuthimma
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by mankuthimma »

Now what was hilariously funny to me as an observer of all this drama was that Mom was tone deaf too
....I laughed but is being tone deaf/mute akin to being visually or mentally handicapped and so is it wrong on my part to laugh?
Well I expect it NOT to be funny AFTER you realise that someone is visually / mentally handicapped / Tone deaf. The world has moved forward a great deal in sensitising the average person on the street by labelling them as special.
But I understand. You are honest with your question.
I can show you works of art by such people .. of a standard that you may not be able to achieve in your own lifetime.With all your strengths.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dipFMJckZOM
Time to see the Starry Starry Night again . Poor Vincent.
Vincent , Who never sold a single painting all his Life :(

Nick H
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by Nick H »

Ahh... indeed... people are welcome to try living with a simple touch of normal deafness.

...I ranted for several paragraphs, and then deleted it :)

I can see the "joke" in bhavarasa's story

bhavarasa
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Joined: 11 Nov 2009, 02:57

Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by bhavarasa »

My apologies if I wasn't lucid enough. I am not referring to hearing impaired of visually impaired persons here. I am referring to the tone-deaf and tone-mute

Tone Deaf - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_deafness
Tone Mute - Those that cannot carry a tune (apaswaram, wrong swarasthanams etc)

So to Cool and others: My apologies if the content came through differently than what I had intended.

@VKR: I have nothing against those that "sing" in their bathrooms OR directly to God. They are blessed souls indeed (those that sing to God). I'm referring to those that want to learn music in a formal manner but just don't have "it".

mankuthimma
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by mankuthimma »

Thanks Bhavarasa.
As I said earlier we had understood you were trying to say .

srikant1987
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by srikant1987 »

Now what was hilariously funny to me as an observer of all this drama was that Mom was tone deaf too
Love is blind. And deaf?

ragam-talam
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by ragam-talam »

Imagine a concert where a tone-mute 'musician' is performing, and the audience consists of tone-deaf 'rasikas'! And a 'language-shoonyam' critic writes a review!

Comedy of errors indeed!
(who knows, this may already be happening today... :D )

smala
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by smala »

Might want to re-phrase or do away with "Jnanasoonyams" - people have knowledge of something or the other -- so such a word is inapt, insensitive.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by vasanthakokilam »

sangeethaJnanasoonyam, SJS for short ;) Many people preface comments they make about music with 'I am a Jnanasoonyam in CM', so it only has a negative punch only when used in an accusatory sense.

arasi
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by arasi »

VK,
sjs or sgs? I write the middle word as gnAna.

bhavarasa
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by bhavarasa »

I attempted to write a clarifying post for my original but at 3 sentences for each word in the original, it was running way too long. Need to get better at writing socio-politically correct posts.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by vasanthakokilam »

sgs it is, for sangeethagnAnasoonyam!!!
bhavarasa, socio-political correctness is a double-edged sword, no need to fret over it.

braindrain
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by braindrain »

There is nobody who is 'tone-deaf' ! Listen to him..
http://www.ted.com/talks/benjamin_zande ... ssion.html

mankuthimma
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by mankuthimma »

Beeeeautiful !!! Brain Drain.
Feeling like catching the next Shatabdli to Blore and give you a hug.
You have made my day .You have made it look so beautiful.

mankuthimma
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Joined: 11 Jul 2010, 13:38

Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by mankuthimma »

And thanks bhavarasa . What you thought was an innocuous question is bringing out so many gems .

Nick H
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by Nick H »

Thanks, Braindrain. Words fail me :)

ram
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by ram »

Thanks so much braindrain! Can't thank you enough for that.

bhavarasa
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Joined: 11 Nov 2009, 02:57

Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by bhavarasa »

@BrainDrain
Very beautiful indeed. Like the Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna's dilemma.

Nick H
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by Nick H »

Not considering myself to have an accurate sense of pitch is one of the reasons that my excursion into being a music student was on the side of percussion. Yes, the mridangam has to be tuned, but I had no expectations of performing, whereas with voice or instrument, one must produce different pitches right from the start.

Guess what! I found that the ability to tune an instrument could be learned and improved with practice! Further evidence against tone deafness.

bhavarasa
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by bhavarasa »

While the philosopher in me wants to believe that there are no "tone deaf" persons, the scientist in me knows that there are indeed "tone deaf" people and within that group, there does exist a small percentage where even training and constant listening does not fully rectify the "tone deafness".

Now, all of this is subjective and relative I suppose.

Nick H
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by Nick H »

Can you explain, from the scientific standpoint, what is meant? Is it an ability to determine, given two pitches, which is higher, or is the ability to measure pitch? If the former, can a scientifically tone-deaf person tell male voices from female voices?

uday_shankar
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by uday_shankar »

bhavarasa wrote:While the philosopher in me wants to believe that there are no "tone deaf" persons, the scientist in me knows that there are indeed "tone deaf" people and within that group, there does exist a small percentage where even training and constant listening does not fully rectify the "tone deafness".
BS

Until Suzuki came along, "scientists" like you knew that 3 year olds couldn't be trained to play the violin.

There's no such thing as true "tone deafness", only lack of tone perception, for whatever reason.. This does not mean than everyone can be trained to become piano tuners, but certainly can be brought to a competent level. And anecdotally, back in college, over a period of time, I have personally trained seemingly "tone-deaf" people into tone-cognizant ones.

Enna_Solven
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by Enna_Solven »

This one is beautiful too:
http://www.ted.com/talks/evelyn_glennie ... isten.html

Scottish percussionist and composer Evelyn Glennie lost nearly all of her hearing by age 12. Rather than isolating her, it has given her a unique connection to her music.

In this soaring demonstration, deaf percussionist Evelyn Glennie illustrates how listening to music involves much more than simply letting sound waves hit your eardrums.

Radhika-Rajnarayan
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by Radhika-Rajnarayan »

Superb link from braindrain.

Just an experience I would like to share - we also thought that there are some people who are 'tone deaf' ( I know of a distant relative who 'learnt' the complete saveri varnam and then played it very happily back to the teacher in Sankarabharanam without realising that there was anything wrong at all - this is a true story); but in our experience, it is a matter of continuous training. The line operators at our factory who produce the electronic musical instruments initially do not know one note from another. But within the space of an year, they are able to perfectly tune those of our products that have notes that can be individually tuned. During the course of that year, of course, their ears are bombarded for 8 hours a day with the constant sound of the sruti being played - about 50 instruments at a time on test.

This can be done with beginners to inculcate the sruti sense. In addition to the regular lessons they should listen to the sruti for an extended period of time, several hours in fact. It works, at least in developing sruti sense. The rest of the lessons - how fast they pick up etc may be another issue.

bhavarasa
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by bhavarasa »

@Nick.

I believe it is lack of relative pitch when it comes to musical instruments and in some rare cases, the human voice. It is to be taken only within the context of music.

As regards male vs. female, there are other qualities of sound besides the pitch that is different - timbre for example. Obviously TM Krishna singing at a C# or D would sound very different from a Sanjay Subrahmanyam at the same shruti. So I don't think tone deafness affects the ability to distinguish between two voices.

Per Uday, the extreme cases might be correctable over a long and continuous period of training or exposure to music.

Nick H
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by Nick H »

Enna_Solven wrote:This one is beautiful too:
http://www.ted.com/talks/evelyn_glennie ... isten.html
I have been waiting since yesterday for the chance to watch that. The woman is nothing short of a miracle!

But, although at the beginning it is about being a deaf musician, it soon becomes about so very much more, about the very essence of making and listening to music.

Fabulous. Thanks for the link.

Enna_Solven
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Re: Tone Deaf vs. Tone Mute and Jnanasoonyams

Post by Enna_Solven »

You are welcome Nick.

That lady is simply wonderful. I do not normally go to ted.com; I get lost there going from one fascinating clip to another :tmi:

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