Learning Sa for six months !

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 06 Aug 2010, 08:56

This article makes interesting reading.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fr/2010/08/06 ... 870300.htm

Pushkar Lele says,
It was my singular privilege to have had the chance to learn from Pt. Vijay Sardeshmukh, a senior disciple of Kumarji. When I started learning from him, he made me sing just â€˜sa' for six long months! It was utterly frustrating after having learnt for 15 years. But one day, when I hit the â€˜sa' he wanted, he smiled and I realised that I had, till then, never hit the centre of a note before! Learning from Vijayji was like changing my religion. I had to unlearn many things.

Is there any counterpart in Carnatic Music ?

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 06 Aug 2010, 10:16

The Fims Divsion Documentary that was screened at Satyam a few years ago showed a Student of Gangubai Hangal who had quit his job as a clerk in some village panchayath office . He was seen mentioning that Gangubai had not allowed him to go beyond Yaman and Yaman alone and he was in his sixth year of learning under the maestro !!!!
Chaurasia too shifted to left hand playing as a mark of convincing Annapurandevi that he was willing to start afresh in learning and not not bringing in any of his old techniques to play. Shifting from right to left . Can there be a bigger price to pay ?

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 06 Aug 2010, 11:17

It is customary for Hindustani musicians to talk of spiritualism and a dreamy private world of music. Sanjay once mentioned in the Jaya TV programme, that one has to ask Sri Sri about spirituality, etc., He was just a musician!! He is an excellent artist too, proving that CM can exist without the support of spirituality. Good CM however is always an elevating experience to thousands of rasikas, besides the artists themselves.

CM is better than HM, if not for anything else, for the simple reason that we definitely learn a bit more than Sa in six months!!

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 06 Aug 2010, 11:44

kssr,
To understand what Hindustani musicians say , one should have heard quite a bit of Hindustani Music.
When Pt. Vijay Sardeshmukh makes a student sing "SA" for 6 months, it shows the tremendous effort on their part to seek the "Perfect SA". An effort which I certainly would not disparage.
I for one can meditate on "SA" in my puja room and it may surprise you to know that this can be a spiritually elevating experience

However I am not getting into CM versus HM comparisions and ofcourse I agree with you when you say that Good CM elevates thousands of rasikas :tmi: After all "SA" belongs to CM too

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 06 Aug 2010, 12:26

It is customary for Hindustani musicians to talk of spiritualism

Quite the Contrary .
The spiritualism aspect is going to be a burden on CM as we pass into the future.
It already is , in terms of evolving with the times .
At least the HM artists do not show off their Vibhuthis and Namams .
The next CM evangelist will free it from the burdens of this false show.
Damn it. No one sings the lyrics properly. Nor fully. No one lives up to those ideals anymore . Very few in the audience even understand the language in which most of it is sung. Announcers pronounce a word like Marakoti as Marakothee ( monkey on a tree ) . Singers do a neraval on Garbhineeee

But this is another fascinating subject for discussion.
The fact that CM is looking for directions from the next path finder is evident in the way it is trying to mimic HM through its RTPs and Jugalbandis.It has run short of inspiration.
It has miserably failed on the composing front too , thanks to the " diety -religion -kshetra " aspect being beaten to death.
Pallavi singing has been reduced to shambles.
Thukkadas are on the rampage .... Artistry is out . Fusing of disparate elements is in.
The wiser ones are digging deep into the unexposed krithis of the past composers , but are only borrowing time in the process.
Compare this to the innocence of seeking infinity just in Sa .
Having said that , these example just show the degree of importance given to some aspects in HM.One should not read too much into it.

Going by the same argument I refuse to listen to CM that is not well aligned to a Sruthi. That kind of music , even if very cerebral , is just not Music , to me.
But it is just my way of looking at things, though. Each one to his taste.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 06 Aug 2010, 13:26

mankuthimma wrote:
Compare this to the innocence of seeking infinity just in Sa .
Having said that , these example just show the degree of importance given to some aspects in HM.One should not read too much into it.

Absolute innocence and sheer gurubhakti. But I cannot but sympathise with the real life tear jerker story of someone singing Sa for six months. I apologise for my lack of innocence and even irreverance.

cienu:
Yes I have also attempted listening to stalwarts (even concerts) of Bhimsen Joshi, Bismillah Khan and Chaurasia. They are no doubt simply amazing, esp Chaurasia. But still ,probably due to lack of training, cannot stand it for 3 hours. Even I attended one programme of one prominent HM musician followed by MS's concert at Palace grounds many years back. Could not stand even that 1.5 hrs of HM. Very nice in small quantities.

What I say is neither a comparison nor criticism of HM. Just an expression of the limitation of a typical CM rasika.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 06 Aug 2010, 14:07

What a long journey we have travelled since the early days of Rasikas.org.
The Hindustani section came after much pushing and prodding. Srkris went all the way to promote Hm here by making the page look 50-50 for CM-HM .
HM finally settled down to a cosy corner , as you can see today.
Yes this little world here is dominated by CM , and rightfully so.
But please dont let your HM world be made only by those three names.Only one of them is in my Hall of Fame. |(
The first of the other two...... you would have been luckier if you had chosen to listen to Anantlal .
The third , the flautist , is a poor shadow ( musically ) of his former self , ever since he became very very famous.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 06 Aug 2010, 15:03

mankuthimma wrote: But please dont let your HM world be made only by those three names.Only one of them is in my Hall of Fame. |(

I had to think hard even to generate these 3 names. Do not expect too much from me in this field!!!
The third , the flautist , is a poor shadow ( musically ) of his former self , ever since he became very very famous.

Was it after he turned left handed??

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 06 Aug 2010, 15:08

http://www.mediafire.com/?5cb5h2010bpsazm

Why dont you try this snippet between the 20th and 30th minute of a concert in my hometown ?
Long long ago.
Who knows what secret keys may unravel this mystery of HM to you.

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 06 Aug 2010, 16:36

cienu wrote: I for one can meditate on "SA" in my puja room and it may surprise you to know that this can be spiritually elevating experience

cienu- I totally agree with you.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 06 Aug 2010, 16:43

Sa - spritually aelevating .
erode's bug has bitten me

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 06 Aug 2010, 17:39

Talking about Sa, I have heard several people - i.e. otherwise knowledgable rasikas & artistes - refer to the note as 'shadjamam'!
Please, the correct word is 'shadjam'. (the confusion could be because of 'madhyamam', 'panchamam' etc)

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 06 Aug 2010, 18:51

sA for six months, Re for six month and so on Ni for last six months, if they get all these 7 swaras perfectly in 42 months, I would love to hear any artist, after all swaras is what I generally look out for in any concert?

gita · Post by **gita** » 06 Aug 2010, 19:25

'Shruti suddham ' and 'laya suddham'- i.e. purity of Shruti and purity of laya can be meditative. Just listening to some one practice the 'Sarali varisai' with absolute purity in shruti and laya can give tremendous peace,- esp. in an instrument, not necessarily a raga alapana or a composition.

Music · Post by **Music** » 06 Aug 2010, 19:33

Including both kinds of Ri, both kinds of Ga...all 12 swarasthanas would make it 72 months....6 years! If any artist in CM/HM has done this, you will hear the difference. Hitting a note with utmost perfection is not easy. The artist has to start listening to her/his own swara very keenly. Once that happens, one would realize about having imperfection and then start working on improvement. Without that keen ear (this applies both to the performer as well as the listener), the artist as well as the listener can turn out be blissfully ignorant of the perfect note and still enjoy the music.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Aug 2010, 19:43

They should not only be achieving perfection of pitch, they should be achieving perfection of tone and strength of voice as well. In the musical utopia you describe, the artist should also have achieved the mic-less projection of his/her voice to the limits of a fair-sized hall with no loss of quality!

Not that I have any right to be talking about sruti matters, having neither the knowledge nor the ear.

rajani_K · Post by **rajani_K** » 06 Aug 2010, 19:48

Reminds me of a joke..
There lived a Wife and Husband..Husband has a violin and he plays only Sa..
wife used to think that that's called music.She never was exposed to concerts or performances than her husband's "Saaaaa"..

One day, she went out for some reason and on her way back, she witnessed a Violin concert..
The violinist was playing with his nimble fingers and producing different sounds which were a surprise to the wife..

So she heads back home and narrates the incident to her husband and asks him
"I always saw you playing without moving your finger but that violinist was moving his fingers all over and producing different sounds, why so? "

To this Husband replied
"I found the note long back..but that poor guy is still searching for it"

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Aug 2010, 20:11

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 06 Aug 2010, 20:25

Although it is somewhat absurd to lift the idea of the "six month Sa" to CM, we should see how the anecdote can be made into an useful information for CM teachers. We are all very familiar about the teachers starting and ending their classes with a quick " saa.....paa.....SAA.......paa.....saa.....paa(lower) ....saa".
Instead we can at least try to see that our sruti aligns with the electronic box with some keen interest. This will definitely improve the overall performance of the students. In many cases sruti continues to haunt even long term performers of CM.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Aug 2010, 20:32

Rajani_k,

A good one, and not off key at all!

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 06 Aug 2010, 20:34

mankuthimma wrote: ... No one sings the lyrics properly ... Pallavi singing has been reduced to shambles ...

Muthuswami Dikshitar's Sanskrit kriti 'vAtApi gaNapatim bajEham' comes to mind. The pallavi line is sung as:-

vAtApi gaNapatim bajE!
ham vAtApi gaNapatim bajE!
ham vAtApi gaNapatim bajE!
ham vAtApi gaNapatim bajE ...!

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 06 Aug 2010, 20:51

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: ham vAtApi gaNapatim bajE ...!

It is correct only..., I say.

HUM (We) pray (bajE) vAtapi gaNapatim.

Very clear, Hai na?

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 06 Aug 2010, 21:01

Hindi + Sanskrit! Wow!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 06 Aug 2010, 21:07

Considering we are talking correct lyrics here, that should be "vAtApi gaNapatim bhajEham"
(although one does hear several artistes, esp from TN, pronounce it as 'bajEham')

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 06 Aug 2010, 21:24

Thanks for correcting.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Aug 2010, 21:27

Dear Thimma
I do recall your efforts in establishiing the HM section atthis Forum and the proposal to give equal time for HM.
You single handedly sustained the HM section with scintillating appropriate clips. Since the demise of your avatar the section somewhat languished. Maybe now you will infuse new life into it and also bring in Kedar to add young blood to our appreciation of HM.

However I shudder at the possible emergence of the past ghosts to derail our enjoyment.

Am I correct in stating that the shruti adherence is more vital in HM compared to CM because of the lack of
elaborate gamakams (one of the reasons Harmonium has vanished from CM) ?
Again what is meant by hitting sa precisely. Is it hittting the frequency say 131 Hz precisely, or the ability to stay within the permitted interval without encroaching on the neighbouring swaras?

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 06 Aug 2010, 22:28

cmlover wrote:
Am I correct in stating that the shruti adherence is more vital in HM compared to CM
No. Equally important.

lack of elaborate gamakams
Yes. In composition rendering in HM. But it is even more elaborate in aalaap.

(one of the reasons Harmonium has vanished from CM) ?
May be!

Again what is meant by hitting sa precisely. Is it hittting the frequency say 131 Hz precisely,
The freq of sa depends on the sruti selected and not always 131 Hz (correct me if Iam wrong). The hitting of sa is staying in that particular frequency

or the ability to stay within the permitted interval without encroaching on the neighbouring swaras?
I guess no "bandwidth" is allowed there. You hit the right freq of sa and stay put !

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Aug 2010, 00:48

A few years back Thimma shared some content from a book on Indian Music aesthetics. What I still remember from it and which gives me different interpretations depending on the context is this.. ( paraphrasing )

For a beginner and an ordinary musician, the swarasthana is like a tightrope. When you are on it, you struggle a lot ( 6 months, 6 weeks... ) so you do not fall down. Having mastered that and with experience, that tightrope is not a tightrope anymore but a balancing beam of a gymnast. You have quite bit of leeway in doing a lot of interesting things with it. The reason why you have to get past the tightrope stage is, without that reference the balanced beam is nothing more than a wide rope with a lot of slack and it does not give you any support to do interesting things with it.

That is the jist ( not the exact words ). Now that narrative is useful for Indian music in many different ways. As we all know, a swarasthana is not a note, is not just one frequency. kAnaDa ga needs to be lowered however slightly. If you do not know what the reference is, how do you know much much to lower it. Of course, oscillations of various kinds. Again without the reference oscillations can go haywire. Upward attack, downward attack, upward slide, downward slide, all this requires a reference to which you can slide to, you can oscillate on etc. That is a very difficult to thing to do, to dance around the reference ( balanced beam ) and in a flash stay on that reference (tightrope) on a long kArvai. That is so beautiful and soulful to listen to but a tough thing to pull if you do not have that reference personified inside you.

So, contrary to popular beliefs, the objective of the life long practice and meditation on a single note is not necessarily for singing that note straight but to attain the freedom so you can play around that note. That is one of the quintessential qualities of CM, HM and many other forms of Indian Music.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Aug 2010, 00:53

Thanks to you and Thimma for that insight. Really, an insight!

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 07 Aug 2010, 01:24

mankuthimma wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?5cb5h2010bpsazm

Why dont you try this snippet between the 20th and 30th minute of a concert in my hometown ?
Long long ago.
Who knows what secret keys may unravel this mystery of HM to you.

Coolji,

Who is the singer of this magic, the great Gangubai? Most of the phrases are ascending. What is this called in HM? Any particular phase of alaap? 0:49 - 0:55 !!!

I have already listened to it three times. It is stuck in my head.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 07 Aug 2010, 07:22

Lalith J Rao , singing in my hometown , Davangere. Sang this raga for over an hour .
Now folks may say Lalith Who ?
A BE - Electronics engineer, of the late 60 s who quit her career quite early after a stint in Canada ( I am speaking from memory , though ). Belongs to Agra Gharana.Learnt from the likes of Fayyaz Khan and Dinakar Kaikini
Settled in some corner of Bangalore now, I guess.
Never heard her sing in Chennai .So much for our collective tastes in hanging on to every repetition of Bhavani Dayani adnauseum :devil:
Cruel world .. Sethalpatti , Kalyanraman , MDR . ( All with fine sa's .
How many more can we afford ?
I will put up the full track later.I bet you wont move from your seat for the full hour, Enna Solven.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Aug 2010, 07:53

Thimma,
I have heard her in a house concert in the eighties here in the US. Really liked her singing and have wondered about her. Thanks for her music. Yes, when I asked around in India some years ago, no one had heard of her

Did she ever sing in Kolkota? Time for Nandagopal to join in!

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 07 Aug 2010, 10:24

I for one can meditate on "SA" in my puja room and it may surprise you to know that this can be a spiritually elevating experience

Yes Cienu.
I remember reading in Raghav Menons book on Kumar Gandharv about KG's fascination for tuning three tanpuras , in unison.I was then fascinated because it has a parallel in Machine Tool Manufacturing where concepts of perfect flatness have to be attempted. And here it is a proven concept that a flat surface can be termed perfect only if it shows perfection ( by matching ) to TWO SEPARATE DIFFERENT flat surfaces.Only then can one say all the three surfaces are perfectly flat .
That book also mentioned KG's desperate search for an illusory door opening up a passage, during those tuning sessions , which would be a pathway to the THE Ultimate Source.

Arasi.
BTW I have started to like being called Thimma.
Just Yesterday I received a Musical Bonanza from deep inside Andhra territory from a contact that I have made through these corridors.And guess what ? The courier was addressed to Coolkarni Garu ...... Nungambakkam . And it was delivered promptly

And so I sent another parcel addressed to Vidwan Na Keerthi , .And that too was delivered promptly.

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 07 Aug 2010, 15:20

Pt. Mallikarjun Mansur once said at a lecdem that all the learning he received from his guru was how to sing â€˜Saâ€™. He gave such an importance to singing Sa. He demonstrated his statement with a Tanpura and no one in the audience could discern his voice from the sound of the Tanpura. So finely was his voice merged in the sound of the Tanpura.

Ustad Bismillah Khan had an answer for remark that it would take several years to perfect each of the 7 (or12 ?) notes. He said â€œEk sadhe sub sadheâ€™ meaning thereby that if you master one you master all. If you master one note you can easily master all the others. If you master one Raga it is easy to master other ragas. There is a great truth behind this statement.

A mastery of Sa would come about only after achieving many things

1. The frequency of the note produced should match 100% with the one produced by tune source viz., the drone , sruthi box , or tune generator.
2. The vocal chords should be trained so much that it vibrates in a relaxed mode for a long time
3. Persons of science say that normally a human voice singing a note contains many frequencies other than that of the note sung. Lesser the other frequencies more melodious becomes the voice. The vocal chord should have a flawless vibration meaning thereby the frequencies let out should have only the harmonics of the Sa and no other frequency.
4. The voice should emanate from the nabhi, rather than the throat or the nose.
5. Knowledge of using the hollow of the mouth to produce the best of the sound.
6. Knowledge of arriving at Sa from other notes.

There may be many other factors but with my limited knowledge I could locate only these four.

Once you know the art and technique of reaching a particular note it should be possible to reach all the other notes with the same technique. If a person spends six months in training his vocal chord in this manner I am sure that its effect will permeate into all that he sings.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Aug 2010, 18:38

Thimma's story, related above by VK, puts this matter in a nutshell for me, but...

perhaps tangentially...

Isn't it the intervals between the notes that count more than the notes themselves?

A note with no neighbour is not music: it is a sound

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Aug 2010, 18:48

With all due respect to a great musician, I think he has misunderstood the science behind #3. All those other frequencies are exact multiples of sa (with some natural jitter that is inherent even in the most trained voice) and so they are already in consonance so to speak. No matter how much sadhakam/penance you do, you are never going to be able to achieve a "single tone" - I believe it is physiologically impossible. And even if you did, it aint going to be musical i.e. based on the human ear for music. The more the harmonics, the richer the sound per what humans consider music today. Otherwise, the recently maligned "sruthi poTTi" would give the sa-string of the tampura a solid beating

I think we all know what a "rock steady sa" is but I also think perhaps we may tend to get carried away and over-extend/over-extrapulate its import.

Humans are not going to be able generate a rock steady with 0% variation in frequency (or are all harmonics would be exactly 2, 3, 4 times a fundamental frequency). The reason is similar to you will never see a "perfect" square, circle etc. in nature. At the minute level, there would be variations even in the best of them. How much etc. does depend on the performer, but even the very best will have minute variations. Similarly the human ear may not tell a 100% steady tone (computer generated) vs. a tone that as say 0.000001% variation. i.e. there are "limits" to our hearing apparatus Again each person's capability varies on top of that.

But what humans can certainly achieve is a note that would be perceived as rock steady by even to the keenest ear. This does not mean there is zero tolerance - nor should be lose sleep over that fact

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Aug 2010, 18:53

Nick H wrote:Thimma's story, related above by VK, puts this matter in a nutshell for me, but...

perhaps tangentially...

Isn't it the intervals between the notes that count more than the notes themselves?

A note with no neighbour is not music: it is a sound

In fact "sa" itself has no meaning - since it implies it is "sa" that should match a reference frequency

- but I think that is understood.

All notes are defined w.r.t sa (and thus by neighbour) - but I am not convinced that for ALL of them there is one exact ideal spot that is agreed by everyone (we have been through this a lot) - perhaps even for the same raga. Certainly there is one sa, pa. One would also say ma (M1) - but lets say I happen to pick 140Hz as my frequency. The ma is 4/3 - now the "ideal" pitch is an irrational number and so would be inherently unachievable (even disregarding my earlier post) - would it not?

Arun

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 07 Aug 2010, 18:57

Putting the subject in a nutshell,
a. It was an overkill by the HM guru to make the sishya sing sa for 6 months. May be, he was too busy to continue the lessons.
b. CM teachers should give more importance to sruti (sa-pa-sa) right from the beginning, than they normally (as per my experience) do.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Aug 2010, 20:27

Thank you, arunk, for the interesting technical contributions, and kssr, for bringing us down to earth

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2010, 21:41

I am very much in synch with Arun and with Nick too!
That was the reason for my queries. The microtones (side bands (Arun can correct me)) are equally important. A pure note (say 131Hz) is not music. Humans cannot physiogically make pure notes!
Again other swaras will not automatically follow! One has to practise all the 22 shrutis individually. There is no magic to it. I have seen students hitting a perfect sa and then struggle with pa or ma.

Yes! the statement is a overkill!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 07 Aug 2010, 21:44

Don't forget the silences either... a la the great MDR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Aug 2010, 21:55

All the technical descriptions are correct. They are external and as measured by us.
The aesthetic descriptions above are correct. That is internal to the musician and as experienced by the musician.
So whether it is a single note training or interval training or swarasthana training, it is an internal process. ( We also perceive aesthetics, of course, but that is outside of this context )

I am trying hard to recall the book that Thimma quoted from. Mention of Raghav Menon kindled some memories, so it may have been from one of Shri.Menon's books. Thimma may be able to recall, but I know I am providing scant details to track it down.

Arun, about item 3 in Shivadasan's post ( #34 ), he is also referring to jitter. He specifically acknowledges that harmonics are the good things but jitter to other frequencies as bad. So the point there is about the vocal chords being trained to not cause too much jitter. I will also add to Sivadasan's list that control and change of timbre ( harmonics ) in addition to keeping the jitter as small as possible is part of the training.

So, the Sa for six months is about getting the vocal chords to achieve two things: a) Very minimal Jitter b) the right timbre. So the training is for controlling both the horizontal and the vertical. ( If we like, we can throw in packet loss!!, namely a steady and smooth tone without any perceptible breaks )

Solid and steady Timbre is needed for the same reason one needs solid and steady pitch, namely for playing around with it. Same with solid volume control, so you can play around with amplitude at will. So all this training is about having control of Pitch, Amplitude and Harmonics so you have freedom to play with them and not to keep them constant. As we know, music consists of variations in Pitch, Amptitude and Timbre ( and a few other parameters, including absence of all of the three, namely, silence). It is all about freedom and confidence about dynamics and not statics.

Timbre changes are part of ragas aesthetics definition. kAnaDa 'dha' ( or darbari kAnaDa 'dha' ) from pa has to be sensitively executed. I think what is called 'sensitive' in the aesthetic domain actually translates to hitting the frequency and timbre that is right for that Dha.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2010, 22:41

I have heard of HM teachers recommending breathing control exercises to their students.
None such recommended by CM teachers!
Actually there is the old-wives tale of standing in icecold pond water (a la movie sankarabharanam) to practise the swaras to generate the 'kampitam' but not steadiness of holding a note!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Aug 2010, 23:03

This may be the book by Raghava Menon: http://visionbooksindia.com/details.asp?isbn=8170942365

Even if not, from the description, it sounds like a good book to read.
....
....
"This book is an enriching experience for all those who are fascinated by Indian classical music. It offers an unusual insight into what makes Indian classical music what it is; many-splendoured, simple, yet subtle and impossible to pin down using conventional parameters."

"As the author points out, almost every Indian art is directed towards transforming those who are attracted to it; its allure and enchantment is only an incidental thing that happens. So Raghava Menon traces the inner journey of transformation that a musician must make as he rigorously searches for his music. In the process, the book explores the various pillars on which Indian classical music rests; the Swara, the Raga, Talas, Gayaki, Gharanas, and the alchemical process of personal, one-on-one transmission of the knowledge from the Guru."
....
....

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 08 Aug 2010, 07:34

http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Music-Magi ... 8170392292

It was this , VK

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 08 Aug 2010, 08:45

In our music we always need â€˜kampitamâ€™ or â€˜gamakamâ€™ of high-nature of â€˜kampitamâ€™ but never steadiness at all as we mostly have Shake Hussains or Shake Moulanas or Shake Sadiqs etc., etc., always shaking every note. Even in all electronic-tamburas even the two Shadjas of the same middle-octave differ with each other producing different sounds, though not apa-shruti. But, most surprisingly, many of our artists are unable even to locate this difference. If the HM-musicians prefer to learn â€˜Saâ€™ for 6 months, I cannot even imagine as to how much more time our CM-musicians need to learn the same. amsharma

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 08 Aug 2010, 10:14

much more time our CM-musicians need

can be drastically reduced if they decide to attend HM CONCERTS atleast

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Aug 2010, 11:27

mankuthimma wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Music-Magi ... 8170392292
It was this , VK

Ah..yes...thanks, Thimma.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 08 Aug 2010, 11:28

http://www.flipkart.com/ramayan-1-audio ... zvzkzrhtj4

An album for shelf of every Music lover here.
here is small introductory clip.
http://www.esnips.com/doc/c5c82e81-9614 ... /Channulal
at the Intro , Channulal talks a bit about the nirAkAr brahma .
In the album , He proceeds to sing Vathapi , praising CM for its Laya , on the way .
Vathapi .
Which he learnt from a neighbour when he had come on a personal visit to Sowcarpet Chennai, decades ago.A visit that extended for months , and none of us knew. ;(

One of the finest Masters in our midst today.Hope Kssr listens to this clip and .....

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 09 Aug 2010, 11:21

Again other swaras will not automatically follow! ....There is no magic to it. I have seen students hitting a perfect sa and then struggle with pa or ma.

I completely agree. It is not just sruti suddham but swarasthaana suddham that needs to be practised rigorously. And this needs to be done by practising the plain notes. Gamakams can come later. Once the locations of the plain notes are internalised, all the brighas and complicated gamakams in the world will not shake the swarasthaanasuddham.

We only have to listen to MS amma's long kaarvais at various notes, or the same played by Mali...the soothing pleasure of a perfectly tuned / perfectly sung note just pervades the whole body!

With all due respect to AMSharmaji, I must make a small correction to his statement:

Even in all electronic-tamburas even the two Shadjas of the same middle-octave differ with each other producing different sounds

This is a common mistake many people make. It could be an 'auditory illusion' similar to an optical illusion. This statement cannot be true for the simple reason that the Saarani note is repeated in the electronic tambura. It is not that another note is generated. If you check with a measuring instrument, it is the same identical frequency. Naturally!