Learning Sa for six months !

[Shivadasan]

Vasanhakokilam appears to have understood the subject in the correct perspective. The subject is not about the perfecting the swarasthana or achieving a perfect note. It is about the art of producing the most pleasing or most melodic note through exercises of the vocal chords. It is all about subjecting the vocal chord to a training program and not about the practice of swarasthanas. It is like preparing a bow and arrow before a competition. Assuming that you are a skilled archer, once your instrument is perfect, attaining different targets is easy. It would not require a restart of the training for each target. If the student knows how to produce a particular note in all its variations in a precise manner it would require a little more adjustment and training for tackling the other notes of the scale. Such a training imparts an overall improvement to the quality of the voice. We may even examine whether such a training to a trained musician would result in a better quality of music or not. May be this is why many vidwans are now a days taking training in voice culture even if it is based on Western Music.

Arunk states
“No matter how much sadhakam/penance you do, you are never going to be able to achieve a "single tone" - I believe it is physiologically impossible.”

I had always wondered how the sopranos break wine glasses with their voice. I thought that they were able to sing the precise frequency of the wine glass. I would like to be educated on this subject by the scientist members whether they produce the exact note or the note with harmonics.

[arunk]

There is no doubt that one can adjust the timbre of the voice to make it sound "more musical" and that is part of voice training (besides being able to create a steady note). But the quote was "Persons of science say that normally a human voice singing a note contains many frequencies other than that of the note sung. Lesser the other frequencies more melodious becomes the voice.". He may have meant something else but to me it seems clearly confusing two different things. and thus ending being incorrect in more than one aspect.

W.r.t shattering wine glass - it has to do with resonance. It does require a very steady note pitch (again pitch here does not mean exactly one frequency component i.e. pitch from a human, bird, instrument etc. always has multiple components and is different from a "tone" with a single frequency component). Here is one article explaining it from a scientific perspective - http://www.barransclass.com/phys1090/circus/Halsey.html

Arun

[cmlover]

I think the shattering of glass takes place at supersonics!
There used to be complaints of windows breaking when supersonic aircrafts were introduced.
The supersonics pack a lot of power (a physicist can quote the equations)!
Those sounds are used to clean cloths and dishes without using water or detergents!
Pavaroti used to perform that trick!

[kssr]

Those sounds are used to clean cloths and dishes without using water or detergents!

Ultrasonic baths for cleaning laboratory glassware, etc.,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_cleaning

[vasanthakokilam]

>I think the shattering of glass takes place at supersonics!

No, not really. As the link Arun provided shows, tap lightly on the glass, it makes a sound. Make that same sound with high amplitude directed properly. That is all it takes, but it is not easy to pull off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTWDEsGlPO8

See her tapping it and listening to the sound and then matching that sound.

At the lowest frequency ( the resonant frequency ), the glass has the least number of nodes which twists it much beyond its elastic limits. At higher frequencies, the number of nodes are more, so the twists on the glass are more spread out and hence it does not take it beyond its elastic limits.

Another demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECNDpCYvaOc

[Nick H]

I wish I could do the washing up by singing a note!

Ultrasonic baths have been used by jewellers and watchmakers, both as part of the manufacturing process and for cleaning second-hand pieces, and, of course, as a service to customers. Wanted one, but couldn't afford it: now they are domestic units available.

Isn't the thing with the glass that you have to the frequency that it would give if you pinged it, or rub your finger around the rim (like a Tibetan singing bowl. Gosh, I had forgotten that trick) and then inject more energy into it, at that frequency, than it can handle.

Our local physicists will, I'm sure, correct me.

<cross-posted with VK: I don't seem to be so far off >

[vasanthakokilam]

>cross-posted with VK: I don't seem to be so far off
Yes.

>I wish I could do the washing up by singing a note!

Guru: "Thanks disciples. You were all in good form today. I feel so clean"
Mischievous Disciple: "Guru, we can do even better if you allow us to "tap" you to find your Adhara sruthi"

[uday_shankar]

It will take a long time and a lot of physics to clarify everything, but a few egregious conceptual clarifications:

1. "Frequency", harmonics, etc... have one meaning in physics, engineering, audio processing, etc... but take on a whole new mystical dimension when it comes to psyco-acoustics, i.e., how the whole thing is translated by the ear-brain combine. It is fascinating and nothing is obvious. Therefore, non-experts and musicians, who approach the problem from the musical side would be ill-advised to talk about "pure" frequencies, etc...Similarly, non-musicians and technologists should try to "go beyond the words" and try to find out if teh musician is talking about some tangible thing using a wrong word like "frequency".

To give just one quick example among thousands possible...the ear perceives sounds that are really not "there" such as in phantom subharmonics. You can play a combination of an even and odd harmonic, say 400Hz and 500Hz, and the human ear will perceive a "fundamental" 100Hz which is not there...

2. Supersonic vs subsonic vs ultrasonic vs infrasonic

Supersonic refers to speeds in excess of sound. That is possible for an aircraft or space shuttle but not for a sound wave in air ! Even the shock wave that creates sonic boom travels only at the velocity of sound. Subsonic refers to speeds below the speed of sound in air ~ 350 m/s. These terms are totally irrelevant to any discussion pertaining to sound and acoustics.

Ultrasonic refers to acoustic (it ceases to be "sound" if we cannot hear it ) waves beyond 20Khz the upper limit of human hearing. These are widely used in toothbrushes, cleaners, blah, blah... These waves too travel pretty much at 350 m/s through air. Infrasonic is more interesting...they are waves below 30hz, the approximate lower threshold of human hearing. Elephant rumble falls on either side of this boundary.

To summarize, supersonic and subsonic refer to speeds of objects (and not sound/acoustic waves) while ultrasonic and infrasonic refer to freqencies of sound/acoustic waves.

[Nick H]

You can play a combination of an even and odd harmonic, say 400Hz and 500Hz, and the human ear will perceive a "fundamental" 100Hz which is not there...

Is this related to the "beat" we hear when two notes are almost, but not quite, in tune?

[cacm]

Somewhat but BEAT is strictly when two frquencies are very close to one another & the energyy transfer results in RESONANCE effects which is somewhat what hapens in the case of Thambura& voice or instrument resulting in a special amplifying type effect. VKV

[uday_shankar]

Thanks vkv sir...Here's some more discussion...

As vkv pointed out, "beats" as it is normally referred to pertains to frequencies that are very close, say with a difference of less than a few Hz. Only then is there an audible perception of "beating" whose frequency is the difference between the two frequencies. If they differed by higher intervals, there would be a perception of a third musical "tone" (only in some cases) rather than a perception of "beating" which is an amplitude or intensity modulation effect on the ear. And indeed a third tone is what we hear in the phantom subharmonic case. There too there's constructive and destructive interference between the 400Hz and 500Hz but that happens to be at precisely 100Hz which also happens to be the frequency of a hypothetical fundamental of 100Hz whose 4th and 5th harmonics would have been at 400Hz and 500Hz !

To cautiously add a psychoacoustic warp to this discussion, think about the consonance effects on the brain. That's a complex subject but clearly the 4th harmonic (Sa) and the 5th harmonic (antara gandhara) are very consonant from our experience. So when the third tone is consonant with the generating tones, all the more pleasant ! So the human brain has a capacity to lock into pleasantness ! When you sound 400Hz and 500Hz, the resulting third "tone" is clearly perecived by the brain. On the other hand, when you sound some other arbitrary, unrelated combination, say 419Hz and 561Hz, the brain may just perceive them as two discordant notes, although there's a third "tone" in the picture here too!

I believe consonance is highly related to reinforcement of the "Sa effect". For example, reverse the subharmonic case and lets say we sound sa and pa together. That would be the fundamental and the lower octave of the 3rd harmonic (x and 3x/2). The "beat" frequency in the case would be 3x/2 - x = x/2 i.e., the subharmonic of the Sa or the mandhara Sa! So when you sound Sa and Pa together, you're effectively generating the mandhara Sa! Which is perfectly reinforcing the "Sa effect" ! Now you know why Sa Pa sound so good together, you get one more Sa !

(I may add that I've always had a weakness for "Sa", esp the ones that sound very pleasant . )

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Can we say that in a music programme, each rasika may 'hear' the song differently according to hearing capacity, 'perceive' differently according to the brain's capacity and 'enjoy' differently according to the musical knowledge?

[cmlover]

Yes Uday!
Music appreciation has a high psychological component. The music that chinese enjoy cannot be appreciated by us. Those trained on CM do find HM lopsided and too slow! There is a strong cultural factor. Again there is subtle programming that take place through 'suggestion'. We learn to appreciate CM largely by peer pressure. You are right about hearing 'ghost' sounds; sounds which are not there but the brain fills in. That is why established Reviewers could make or break budding performers! The psychology of music is a fascinating area. In fact many cures that are attributed to music are essentially 'psycho cures'!

[gita]

Talking of 'ghost sounds' in music, is there a possibility of sound coming from thin air? My daughter, while sleeping at a relative's place,used to hear 'golusu' or 'metti' sound as if some one was walking slowly in the middle of the night which no one could ever hear. She got so scared that she never went back to sleep there.
I am sorry if this is diverting, just thought some physicists may have some explanation.

[kssr]

Talking of 'ghost sounds' in music, is there a possibility of sound coming from thin air? My daughter, while sleeping at a relative's place,used to hear 'golusu' or 'metti' sound as if some one was walking slowly in the middle of the night which no one could ever hear. She got so scared that she never went back to sleep there.
I am sorry if this is diverting, just thought some physicists may have some explanation.

I can clarify this.
a. There was possibly a person actually walking with golusu or metti. Your daughter was awake whereas others were asleep.
b. In half sleep, we may not only see images in dreams, but also hear sounds.
c. She might have read a Marma kathai or seen a movie or TV serial -they are aplenty- of that type.
d. She may not like going to that place and hence the story- real or imagined. Kindly do not brush this most possible cause aside as rubbish. It does happen.
e. Let her sleep with others/you in the same room.

These are hallucinations and not much to do with physics. Less the encouragement,less will be such things, recurring.

[mankuthimma]

My son could hear a train approaching 30 seconds before the train would pass by our home in Guindy. Even to this day, after we have locked our flat and are at the gate of the building ,( Mind you not just our flat ) he will alert us - The -Landline-Phone is ringing !
I would never dare to take him to concerts because a sivranjini could make him start sobbing uncontrollably. Revathi used to scare him.
If I chew something by grinding my teeth with some extra pressure -even if it is a banana -, he gets uncomfortable and runs away from the room.I have to placate him with a Yaman that he has not heard yet
He has overcome those deficiencies ? though
Today we make it a point to listen to serious music and raise a finger when some extraordinary phrase is being sung or played . Or we just make an eye contact. And I can see that he has a headstart over me. I was 30 by the time I could bring myself to like such music , in its truest sense.
There is something in Music that I cannot describe , which gives me a feeling that I have belonged to somewhere else and am carrying those memories here.

[mankuthimma]

I too can clarify this.
Quote :
Childhood : That period in life when nightmares occur only in sleep
Unquote
:envy:

[kssr]

There is something in Music that I cannot describe , which gives me a feeling that I have belonged to somewhere else and am carrying those memories here.

I guess you are implying "Poorva Janmaththu vaasanai" or what we carry forward from our previous births.
The fact is that it comes from your genes- not poorva janmam. Our genes carry information handed down even by our distant forefathers. In your case it is doubtless the legacy from your dad who had such passion for music.

[mankuthimma]

http://www.mediafire.com/?cfwn5mp8wnxfl5q

kssr Thanks
I am still Hoping to convince you about HM : :envy:
The audience at Academy had all the big names of the day in 1983. It was early days after Bhimsen Joshis classic effort in the Kannada Movie Sandhyaraga where the title song is on similar lines.It has everything you may need.Booming Tanpuras.the longest alap I have heard from BJ , lots and lots of sargams. A classic in its own right.

[uday_shankar]

Music appreciation has a high psychological component. The music that chinese enjoy cannot be appreciated by us. Those trained on CM do find HM lopsided and too slow! There is a strong cultural factor. Again there is subtle programming that take place through 'suggestion'. We learn to appreciate CM largely by peer pressure. You are right about hearing 'ghost' sounds; sounds which are not there but the brain fills in. That is why established Reviewers could make or break budding performers! The psychology of music is a fascinating area. In fact many cures that are attributed to music are essentially 'psycho cures'!

All true. Just for clarity these are pure psychological and cultural acclamatization factors which are distinct from the science of pshychoacoustics. Psychoacoustics has nothing to do with cultural factors but is a universal phenomenomon wrt the human brain. When I mentioned that the "brain has a capacity to lock into pleasantness" I was specifically talking about consonance. The reason the brain is able to fill in 500 - 400 = 100Hz is precisely because of the pleasant consonance with the individual harmonics. On the other hand the brain does not fill in for an arbitrary combination 561-419= 142Hz. I wonder if we actually sounded the 142Hz for some "locking" help, then the brain would actually perceive the third tone due to persistence of the "illusion"...I just had an idea for an experiment .

"Ghost" sounds gives the impression of something mysterious and psychic. While psychoacoustics is fascinating and mysterious, there is absolutely nothing "psychic" about it. What I am talking about can be called "acoustic illusions" fully analagous to "optical illusions".

kssr has correctly clarified that "hearing" sounds at night is likely a purely psychological thing.

coolkarni's son hearing the train before anybody else may indicate a superior sense of hearing and more importantly, perception. When individuals have a superior sense, that can sometimes give the impression of psychic power.

Like coolkarni I cannot personally dismiss a "non-genetic" character to our experiences . At my core, I am totally into mysticism, and with Erwin Schroedinger believe in the universality of consciousness. So cool and I and all of us have "heard" these songs and sounds elsewhere in space and time ! In fact there's really no distinct cool or me !

[kssr]

At my core, I am totally into mysticism, and with Erwin Schroedinger believe in the universality of consciousness. So cool and I and all of us have "heard" these songs and sounds elsewhere in space and time ! In fact there's really no distinct cool or me !

No harm done in being and believing in mystical illusions and hallucinatory mysticism or whatever else. But be careful when you commit an offence or crime. You cannot get away saying that there is no distinct me!!
When people like me cannot even reach the rudimentary stage of identifying 80% of the ragams in concerts, why would we jump into the rarefied space of the "unknown". Or is it to be attempted because of that?!!

[ragam-talam]

The music that chinese enjoy cannot be appreciated by us.

Don't be so sure. If this case of a British woman speaking with Chinese accent after migraine attack is any indication, perhaps we all share a common genetic imprint, so it's not a big jump to appreciate an alien type of culture, music etc.
And be careful when you get your next migraine attack - it would indeed be strange (or maybe not!) if a CM artiste suddenly starts singing Chinese music!

[kssr]

Could it be the Genghis Khan effect

[ragam-talam]

The news article mentions that it's called 'Foreign Accent Syndrome'

[cmlover]

While I followedup on Uday I am writing about a different dimensions!
We have all heard about haunting melodies. You can actually hear them since the brain recreates those
melodies stored in memory. These are ghost sounds - unlike the pathological white noises we hear
with Tinnitus (hearing defects) which are physiologically induced. One means of overcoming Tinnitus
is to map them onto some pleasant melodies which would stop them from bothering permanently
Scizhophrenics always hear voices (and sometimes musical melodies) which are synthesized by the
brain (we don't know the mechanism). Some of them have become musical genius while there are many
who hate music! Under deep meditation there is a stage in Kundaliini arousal when one starts hearing pleasant melodies! All these may be generically dubbed 'ghost' sounds since they are personal and cannot be heard
by others or detected by sensitive instruments!

Then there is also precognition of sounds which can be explained only be invoking 'Tachyons' which our
VKV can explain better after consulting ECG Sudhardhan

[uday_shankar]

When people like me cannot even reach the rudimentary stage of identifying 80% of the ragams in concerts, why would we jump into the rarefied space of the "unknown".

Fair enough. The only thing that triggered my posts is the casual and tacit collusion among cmlover, yourself, Nick and others in conflating unrelated terms like supersonic, ultrasonic, etc...Sorry for the intrusion . Signing out.

cmlji,
Tinnitus is something I can talk about from personal experience. I have chronic tinnitus during all my waking hours. I cannot remember a time without it. In such chronic cases like myself, it is not an irritation but just a way of life. It does not come in the way of music playing or listening, even in the way of extreme "pitch" related exercises like listening to higher order harmonics, etc... It does compromise my hearing beyond 15Khz at which point I cannot tell of the sound is my tinnitus or from a source.

[cacm]

Watch the series on BRAIN by Charlie Rose on PBS! Its ALL explained there.....ECG may not wish to get involved at this level!.....VKV
UDAY, As long as you stay away from 5hertz you are O.K. That& high decibel
Rock& Roll forced Noreiga to SURRENDER TO US Forces! Today's Carnatic Music Concerts can equal or come close to it?....VKV

[uday_shankar]

Rock& Roll forced Noreiga to SURRENDER TO US Forces! Today's Carnatic Music Concerts can equal or come close to it?....VKV

Can Aruna Sayeeram force Pakistan to surrender ?

[cmlover]

Traditionally Muslims are supposed to eschew music as proposed by
Mohammed (PBUH)
Hence it can be any CM; not particuarly the cowherding or monkey songs of AS

[vasanthakokilam]

Uday wrote:
The reason the brain is able to fill in 500 - 400 = 100Hz is precisely because of the pleasant consonance with the individual harmonics. On the other hand the brain does not fill in for an arbitrary combination 561-419= 142Hz. I wonder if we actually sounded the 142Hz for some "locking" help, then the brain would actually perceive the third tone due to persistence of the "illusion"...I just had an idea for an experiment .

......What I am talking about can be called "acoustic illusions" fully analogous to "optical illusions".

I think I have some ideas on what your ideas for the experiment are Looking forward to it.

With respect to "acoustic illusions" in relation to latching on to consonance, I always felt that graha bedam is such an
acoustic illusion analogous to optical illusions, in the realm of psycho-acoustics you mention. Many optical illusions are caused by the "switch" of the background. If we consider raga to be a higher level consonance pattern, the sruthi and that consonance pattern are the backgrounds against which the incoming sounds are matched by our brain. If one plays tricks with the sruthi, our brain, in its quest for matching a consonance pattern, switches to another raga pattern it has in its background and perceives the incoming sounds to be a different raga.

Just trying to see if the consonance and psycho-acoustics you mention scales up to explaining the perception of raga as a consonance pattern. May be a stretch...

[cmlover]

VK
I wonder whther grahabhedam will qualify to be called an 'illusion'. One abandons the gamakas
of the base raga and adopts those of the shifted raga to create deliberately the raga effect. The shifted raga is there really and is not an illusion!

[Nick H]

Yes! We can enjoy Chinese music. I have heard some very enjoyable Chinese music. As is obvious to my forum-mates, the sound of Indian music, of various kinds, never sounded foreign to me, although, specifically, the amount of listening to Carnatic music (even without being able to identify raga) gives it that feeling-at-home-sigh sense for me.

Once I heard that a baby has the ability to form all the sounds of all the world's languages. As we grow, and learn our native tongue, we somehow loose that ability, making it then hard work to learn foreign languages with different sounds.

I wish my output system had the flexibility of my input system. I remain as linguistically impaired as I was at school.

Anyway, the point of this is to question just how much genetics has to play in such things as the making of sounds and the hearing of music.

[uday_shankar]

(apologies to kssr for continuing this discussion; but obliged to respond to vk)

With respect to "acoustic illusions" in relation to latching on to consonance, I always felt that graha bedam is such an acoustic illusion analogous to optical illusions, in the realm of psycho-acoustics you mention. Many optical illusions are caused by the "switch" of the background. If we consider raga to be a higher level consonance pattern, the sruthi and that consonance pattern are the backgrounds against which the incoming sounds are matched by our brain. If one plays tricks with the sruthi, our brain, in its quest for matching a consonance pattern, switches to another raga pattern it has in its background and perceives the incoming sounds to be a different raga.

Just trying to see if the consonance and psycho-acoustics you mention scales up to explaining the perception of raga as a consonance pattern. May be a stretch...

I think there are two classes of optical illusions:

1) The first kind is fundamental and derives directly from the evolution of the anatomy and physiology of vision. Familiar tricks like the blind spot problem (optic nerve joins retina) wherein a black spot disappears from our vision a precise distance from the eyes, the parallel lines curving illusion, the gray spots between black squares, the white square or black square bigger question, etc etc are examples of this kind of optical illusion. All that Ramachandran stuff, you know .

2) The second kind are higher order optical illusions which have nothing to do with our basic anatomy or physiology but rather have to do with our everyday experience with structure and form. The crazy paintings of MC Escher - where you see birds if you look at it one way and fish if you look at it another, the staircases that never end, etc etc are examples of this kind. Why, even the familiar transparent line drawing of a cube in isometric view is a simple example of this kind of optical illusion - depending on the way you look at the cube, either square can be considered the "face" in "front". Another example - a decade or more back, there used to be certain kinds of pictures exhibited and sold in malls that had a foreground picture but if you stared hard enough at them, you could "enter" the picture and see another pattern like a bird flying or a deer running (where did those paintings go?).


Probably illusions of type 1 above are common to humans and other higher order mammals but type 2 are exclusive to humankind. The kind of "acoustic illusions" (I should copyright the term ) I have referred to so far are analagous to type 1 - i.e., more visceral. I think grahabhedams, although deriving from consonance ideas, pertain more to structure, form and acculturation than to fundamental issues of psychoacoustics and therefore are of type 2. The idea of tonic, which is the cornerstone of any notion of "grahas", is itself not so fundamental (pun intended !) and is entirely cultural.

Inserting the missing phantom fundamental of 100Hz is an involuntary action common to eskimos, Chinese, Balinese and Canarese. However, shrutbhedams can go completely unperceived by people from other musical genres. Just as, hypothetically speaking, anybody who has never seen a fish will miss out on Escher's bird-fish illusions.

vkv sir
I understand the high decibel stuff. I am very sensitive to loud noises and try to avoid them. But 5Hz ?

[uday_shankar]

Its called "auditory illusions" and this link in wikipedia is good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_illusion

[vasanthakokilam]

Uday: Thanks. Yes, I was also thinking of graha bedam belonging to your type 2.. Btw, good and clear descriptions of the two types. The analogy with the foreground/background visual illusions like Escher's pictures works for me to speculate what may be going on with grahabedam on the auditory side.

CML, grahabedam does involve a bit of trickery and some people will fall for it and others will not. So in an audience, for the same music, one set of people might perceive the shifted raga and others may not.. In that sense there is some illusion going on.. but as Uday pointed out it is a higher level illusion ( type 2 ) and different from something that is heard that is not there at all ( type 1 ).

Our brain, culturally trained with matching sruthi anchored raga patterns, has this need to settle on a match when the anchor seems to shift. That need to match on the new raga amidst change in the perceived sruthi may have its origins on the basic need for quick classifications of things which is a survival instinct that evolution has provided us.. ( I am just hypothesizing rather wildly )

[kssr]

something that is heard that is not there at all ( type 1 ).

And something that is not heard (the original raga) which is always there!

VK: Your classifying grahabedam as auditory "illusion" is brilliant. I do not know if any one else has done it earlier. Except for the fact that the performer "leads" you in your illusion by changing over to the gamakas of the new raga, the analogy, in my opinion is really correct.

[Nick H]

On this one, I might be your perfect guinea pig for discovering if the non-Indian-trained ear recognises the Indian phenomenon.

As to understanding, I think this analogous to a change of key in Western music?

As to perception, I really cannot tell if I have ever perceived it.

[cmlover]

Uday
don't quit yet!
When you wax eloquent you throw in a lot of technical details whcih is simply
fascinating and highly educational. We need to rationalize lot of our
cloudy concepts with the 'scientific' help from you.
In the realm of psychology there is a clear distinction between illusion vs delusion
Look at
http://virgil.azwestern.edu/~dag/lol/Il ... usion.html
from the psychologist's perspective.
Formally the first is a mental aberration which is normal and characteristic of the human brain.
Whereas the latter is pathological and deserves therapy from an expert.

Can you extrapolate these ideas to your proprietary 'auditory illusions' vs 'auditory delusions'.
For example a type1 graha bhedam would be a delusion - is it so?
Just as a Schizo hearing voices which is a delusion!

[hariniraghavan]

cml, you are right. An illiusion is a mental aberration and delusion is pathological and needs therapy. But grahabedam is niether. Even though there are many subjective aspects in CM, grahabedam or the modal shift is scientific and with the help of a musical instrument particularly a key-board or a harmonium one can clearly perc ieve it.

Harini

[cmlover]

I am not denying that.
But then what would you call it when during a normal sancara (say omitting some swaras) one perceives a different raga? TNS adopts the trick occasionally. That is deliberate and is intended by the artiste. Maybe that is an illusion. If it is not intended but accidental, is it still an illusion?
Say the artiste slips on shruti (maybe had not practised sa for six months )and inroduces anya swaram and does the sancara on the different raga; then though it is real, it is pathological and we may call it a delusion (?). Of course that is not shruti bhedam but shruti abaddham

[Suji Ram]

On this one, I might be your perfect guinea pig for discovering if the non-Indian-trained ear recognises the Indian phenomenon.

As to understanding, I think this analogous to a change of key in Western music?

As to perception, I really cannot tell if I have ever perceived it.

I once asked a non-CM trained youngster to follow a sahana alapana on guitar and he was able to play very quickly. I asked him how he figured what to play and he said I tried the key of G# . I went wow!...the singer was actually singing in G# pitch.

[uday_shankar]

cmlji,

shrutibhedams/grahabhedams are much ado about nothing and don't qualify as illusions or delusions. Well...they do qualify as delusions because only in the narrow circle of Carnatic listeners is tonic shift such a big deal. It shouldn't be. This is an unfortunate consequence of a deep and unnecessary enslavement to Carnatic formalism such as tonic, raga structure, etc...

Ragas and tonics are self-imposed mental constraints that can be overcome by going though a sincere Carnatic detox. As much as a person develops a taste for western classical music (but NOT rock or pop so much) that's Carnatic detox in and of itself. Tonic shifts sometimes occur every couple seconds in a Tchaikovsy movement ! A little melody in a major scale for a second - strident trumpets in an unrelated minor key for the next couple seconds - and it goes on and on.

Once a taste for WCM is developed, Shrutibhedams/Grahabhedams will automatically get demythologized in the mind and will cease to be delusions .

There is nothing "real" about a raga. It's just a manmade form. We can respect the form and take it seriously with that important qualification.

vk,
I though we had already "demythologized" shrutibhedams in your head with some exercises a while back ?

[Nick H]

key change used to be a standard part of the package for many of the sixties pop songs

[uday_shankar]

OK, I managed to dig out the link to one SB "exercise" from the past although the audio link is probably dead. I can dig out the audio and repost it but the discussions here are instructive on the simple secret of SB.
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9112

[cmlover]

Thx uday
So SB is neither illusion or delusion but a confusion!
I never knew that in WCM all accompanists have to align themselves to the same shruti
(I thought it obtains only for the performance of ARR
During my stints at the obstetrics wards I have heard babies cry. When one of them starts then many follow suit.
As the raucous sounds emerge then they all start aligning themselves to a common harmonious chorus.
My point is that nature loves concordance rather than discordance
As you debunk the fundamental tenet of constancy of the shruti in a concert (if accepted0 many tired artistes
would welcome that relaxation of the rule in CM

Your expt at that time was above my head at that time. But I get the drift..
Await your new expt...

[vasanthakokilam]

Uday: Yes, I recall your great experiments and that is the basis of some of my statements. We do not need to bring in WCM in to the mix. What you wrote about shift of key are very true.

Ragas and tonics are self-imposed constraints alright but such constraints are what define CM. So in the CM tonic-raga context, a grahabedam is an interesting illusion, is it not? We already agreed it is of your type 2. If the word illusion is not the correct word, we can use another word. To me. such "illusions" are fascinating and point to these higher order pattern matching functioning of our brains.

If all you are saying is this it is not in the same league of the 100hz illusion, I fully agree.

[mankuthimma]

Time for some revisons of old lessons ,here.
For the benefit of newcomers - Kalyanramans Lecdem on the subject.
http://www.mediafire.com/?5du3dgga335udj5
http://www.mediafire.com/?1gxonr47k31fsr2

[svkashyap]

Lalith J Rao , singing in my hometown , Davangere. Sang this raga for over an hour .
Now folks may say Lalith Who ?

Lalith J Rao's interview in AIR http://www.sendspace.com/file/wkhm9f She talks about her Gurus and Gharana.

[mankuthimma]

thanks kashyap.

[mankuthimma]

Traditionally Muslims are supposed to eschew music as proposed by
Mohammed (PBUH)
Hence it can be any CM; not particuarly the cowherding or monkey songs of AS

I started off by hearing some great music in Muslim Strongholds in the evenings , before dashing off to Vittal Mandirs for late night bhajans.
Scenes were something similar to this

http://www.mediafire.com/?jbnhebifs39vwv9

Please also read ...http://www.submission.org/music.html