IS CARNATIC MUSIC STAGNANT

Babu · Post by **Babu** » 09 Aug 2010, 22:38

This topic is under discussion in "Rasikapriya". The discussions were started based on article in WCTC Souvenir quoted by Sri.S.V.S Ramani. I invite your input on the subject as I thought we have the forum to discuss this topic.

Regards

Babu

IS CARNATIC CLASSICAL MUSIC FOR THE PURIST?
- A PURE (MODERN) VIEW POINT
Arunan Sriskandarajah
Music is and has been an extremely versatile medium of communication. Its
innate ability to solicit various emotional responses in different
individuals, performers and listeners alike, in a very explicit and
structured way, is unique.

It seems that although we live in a society supposedly developed, yet we
continue to handicap ourselves with the view that classical music does not
build bridges but creates the dam that separates those who appreciate the
beauty of music for its intricacies from those who genuinely are immersed in
its essence, namely bhakthi.

An ordinary listener may not be able to understand the reasons behind the
gruff rumblings of Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar, the silvery quivers of GNB,
the upperoctaval nuances of Madurai Mani Iyer and the lazy drawl of MD
Ramanathan, but he certainly can understand and immerse himself in the
lyrics of the creator and what he wished to convey at the time of his
creation.

A performer on the other hand may understand the reasons why the Ariyakudi
kutcheri format is still followed by majority of the Carnatic musicians or
why a varnam should be sung as the main piece in a kutcheri!

Is there a reason for this difference between the performer and listener to
exist? Does this rift enhance or diminish the listening pleasure of Carnatic
Classical Music?

Although one cannot disregard that there is a shift in modern Carnatic
Classical Music, what are the causes behind the shift? Is it the audience?
Is it the artistâ€™s desire for experimentation? Is it because there are so
many concerts these days that â€œdifferentiationâ€ becomes necessary? Or is it
a bit of everything, along with â€œthe willingness and confidence to try.â€
Itâ€™s tempting to put this young trend before an older rasika. These days,
the papers and the notebooks reach the stage even before the artist does.
And now itâ€™s the laptop age. What is to prevent korvais being formulated on
the computer? Where is the
imagination? But even with all these technologies and innovative singing
styles, there is no denying that Carnatic music is stagnant.

The writer as a traditional Carnatic music student and a modern day
performer will seek to shed some light on which view point should be
construed to be a true view point.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Aug 2010, 23:27

??? I don't see where the article puts the question "is carnatic music stagnant?" <-- EDIT.Talking rubbish here :$

Is the a difference between the performer and the listener? Yes: the performer is performing, the listener listening*. Added to which, may audiences contain performers, and many performers join audiences to listen.

Not, I don't thin, a good proposition for argument.

*Excepting the annoying ones

Babu · Post by **Babu** » 09 Aug 2010, 23:34

Quoted from the text:

"But even with all these technologies and innovative singing
styles, there is no denying that Carnatic music is stagnant."

Regards

Babu

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Aug 2010, 00:40

Woops!

Embarrassed, and have added an edit.

Sorry.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Aug 2010, 07:37

very interesting and useful topic!
It will be nice to invite the writer to participate in the debate here.
There are the oldtimers there who like the pristine purity of Cm drawing the line at Trinity.
They however cannot go beyond ARI who set the rules, which is nothing sacred!
The younger generations do find the old rules very boring and would like innovations.
Ban keyboard, saxophone etc., are the slogans for the traditionals.
Welcome bebot, whistle, guitar,.. is the rant of the newcomers.
Then that is no longer CM is the outcry from the traditionalists.
Before 1930's nothing other than Trinity compositions or languages other than
Telugu/Sanskrit were taboo in CM. Did they consider CM to be staganant?
Can we now live by the same rules?

Nice topic for a civilized debate!

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 10 Aug 2010, 10:26

First things First.
Ariyakudi's music is not gruff rumblings , even to the lay listener.
GNB's music is not limited to being the Silver Quivers.They were arrows that struck the base of Music and brought forth new springs gushing out.
MMI's music was characterised , less by the upper octaval nuances and more by a gut wrenching pathos.
MDRs Music was not a lazy drawl but a never-before or never-after-like-him exhibition of the highest end of fractional distillation .
So even before we get to the lyrics , there is a big canvas to be covered.
Secondly , Yes.We have to debate whether carnatic music is an endangered species. There are many ways to look at this . I am looking forward to the views here.Though personally I am more interested in the solutions rather than problem statement.

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 10 Aug 2010, 11:39

The link given by braindrain - the inspiring talk by 'Ted' can answer this question - they seem to face the same questions in Western classical music.
No, definitely it is not stagnant - look at all the innovative raga expositions of - say - TM Krishna, new compositions like some of the ones by Ganesh-Kumaresh, lots of stuff going on.

Let's be positive, and encourage exploration of new ideas while acknowledging that there are many who stay safe and stick to the well-trodden (worn-out) path .

The process of evolution will take care of the rest!

smala · Post by **smala** » 10 Aug 2010, 12:00

....So even before we get to the lyrics , there is a big canavs to be covered....

For me, lyrics is the picture in the canvas. The bhakti it evokes is the essence, the appeal.

The music is in the brush strokes - soft, thin, short, light, muted, dark, thick, heavy, jagged, long, interrupted - on the canvas to give the lyrics their due.

Caught in the wave of music something catches my attention, some words conjure visions but mostly, I feel. Sometimes it is a heady uplifting feeling connecting me to something elevated. Sometimes calming, nerve-soothing strains that let me unwind. Often times, it is the pathos or a cry from the heart, a welling of deep loss that lingers - long after the music is gone. The words, the ache, makes you dwell on the nothingness of life.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 10 Aug 2010, 18:57

>>Is Carnatic music stagnant?
Define 'stagnant' in this context.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Aug 2010, 19:20

Just like even from a fast moving train if you look at the horizon the landscape moves "slowly" but looking down at the tracks you see it moving so fast it is a blur, from one perspective - a very broad one - cm moves at a glacial pace. But for those who are closer to the ground, they see it moving faster. People see new instruments, new ragas - but others see "same kind of compositions, same ragas, same renditions of old songs, same themes".

I think CM is highly resistant to change in many ways - making it appear stagnant to some. And it is somewhat the nature of the best - "classical" implying "old" and "what is preserved" => "what must be preserve and hence not be subject to any change ideally" - atleast this is the Indian outlook (but not necessarily uniquely Indian). But change is inevitable and so it happens in spite of this resistance, but the resistance acts as a huge throttle, and thus the glacial pace.

That was just a problem statement

- but it also indicates that to change at a faster level may indicate that we have to redefine the term "classical" - assuming we want to and dare to. If not, then IMO it is moving at the right pace already.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Aug 2010, 19:38

Very picturesque indeed Arun!
Thimma already is asking for solutions whereas some of you may be asking
whether there is a problem!
Most definitely CM is stagnant on the Bhakti front! We hear very little that is not
bhakti oriented. We have to learn to separate the dhatu (grammar)from the mAtu (lyrics).
Should we keep the grammar intact a la venkatamahi is a crucial question.
Should we welcome new vaggeyakarakas is yet another on the lyrical front...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Aug 2010, 01:24

I think people love to come out with these propositions, and, if they have some sort of dire note in them, all the better!

There has been no Carnatic Music since 1956!

Carnatic Music ended Last Thursday!

But none of it is true. It's not even true that the material is stagnant: there are many composers working right now. If the main body of the repertoire has been composed in history, that is no different to other classical genres.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Aug 2010, 05:15

stagnancy is with people who does not learn or stopped learning and improve. In Kerala, every town has teachers in every block, teaching CM and or VeeNa. Every malayalam movie will have atleast one song CM raaga based.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 11 Aug 2010, 06:38

CM is not stagnating. But the learners are with the present day youngsters attaching more interest to parties, sports, television, etc gobilalitha

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 11 Aug 2010, 07:29

Stagnant ?? No
Ensembles , Fusion , Crooning , Pampering to Audience Tastes , Tinkering with Cutcheri Formats , Compulsive reaching out to the Hindusthani Idiom , Jugalbandis , instrumentalists dropping their bows to sing and show vocal prowess , Cutcheries becoming thukkada sections from halfway mark, multitasking audiences - from paper reading to kurkure crunching =

At Cross roads ? Perhaps Yes

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2010, 08:45

Do we like to turn the clock back to the 50's - considered the
Golden era of CM!
Though I lived it out, I for one don't!
My hope and trust is in the future...

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 11 Aug 2010, 10:29

Nick H wrote: Added to which, may audiences contain performers, and many performers join audiences to listen.

This december season we will see Sri T.M. Krishna sabha hopping as he had opted not to sing. Source: His website.
I think behind every vidwan is a rasika. To be able to perform music first you must develop a taste for it and be a good rasika. Like my guru used to say first become a good rasika then a good performer.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Aug 2010, 11:54

Rasika911, thanks for the info about TMK. You are indeed Rasika411!!

Here is the link to TMK's statement: http://www.tmkrishna.com/read3.html

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 11 Aug 2010, 13:02

vasanthakokilam wrote:Rasika911, thanks for the info about TMK. You are indeed Rasika411!!

Here is the link to TMK's statement: http://www.tmkrishna.com/read3.html

Probably best to keep this in another thread as it will take over this one if left here. I only used it as an example

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Aug 2010, 16:38

There may be rasikas who would prefer it to stagnate!

On the topic of performers as audience, I am always particularly pleased to see elder musicians coming to see the concerts of young performers

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Aug 2010, 18:21

I know people of other faith - christians and muslims - using carnatic ragas in the praise of the Lords. Is this stagnation?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Aug 2010, 18:35

I have seen two great concerts, recently, by young Amrutha Venkatesh.

She is a student of Rama Varma, who is student of BMK. Three generations of living music: stagnation?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2010, 19:08

I guesss we should go back to R-T's query about 'define stagnation'
before answering whether there is stagnation or not!
Could any body care to 'define' what the author means byy stagnation?
Or can we adopt an agreed operational definition before debating further?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Aug 2010, 19:26

From google, this will do me:

# dead(a): not circulating or flowing; "dead air"; "dead water"; "stagnant water"
# not growing or changing; without force or vitality
# Lacking freshness, motion, flow, progress, or change; stale; motionless; still

Curiously, there seems to have been a Saint Agnant (St Agnant) --- so it seems that even stagnancy can be holy! Can't be sure if St Agnant is a joke. Makes me laugh!

It occurs to me that a natural-history person might find a great deal of interesting things in a stagnant pool!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2010, 20:06

Certainly not a joke Nick:
One of the profound verse in Patanjali Yoga Sutra is
samatvam yoga ucyate
No change is the ideal Yoga!
It is the concept of 'stable equilibrium'...

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 11 Aug 2010, 20:49

There is something called "Neutral Equilibrium", where there is continuous change but the overall effect is, no change. One example is the surface of a liquid body (in some conditions). Some of the liquid molecules evaporate and some molecules condense. Is the sea water changing or stagnant?

The same applies to CM. It appears stagnant but it is always changing. This is the only field where a group of persons get on to the stage for the first time together and start performing without rehearsal (I mean a vocalist, violinist and Mridangam artist). It obviously means that they are producing something new everytime. It could be somewhat "similar" to what was performed elsewhere. CM means improvisation, spontaneity, manodharma and creativity. It cannot be imagined how such a dynamic type of music can ever be called stagnant

Of course, it "appears" stagnant like the waveless stillness in the middle of the sea. But there is a world of activity/change going on inside. Even if there is not a single composition made any longer, the great works of T, MD , SS and so many others will undergo huge transformations/improvements/ improvisations continuously but at the same time always appear a permanent (stagnant) gem in the field of world music.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Aug 2010, 22:04

I'll quote that to the "change is good" crowd!

smala · Post by **smala** » 11 Aug 2010, 22:53

Nick H wrote:I have seen two great concerts, recently, by young Amrutha Venkatesh.

She is a student of Rama Varma, who is student of BMK. Three generations of living music: stagnation?

kutcheribuzz says differently : [news item May 2007, so things may have changed ]

"Young Carnatic vocalists are awarded the Hamsadhwani Ramachandran Sathabhishekam Endowment award every year in Chennai....This year the award went to Prasanna Venkatraman and Amrutha Venkatesh, two young vocalists.

.....

Amrutha Venkatesh shuttles between Chennai and Bangalore, where she is based. She is a student of Bangalore based senior vocalist M. T. Selvanarayana. Amrutha also learns from Chennai based vocalist Charumathi Ramachandran. She is also a recipient of 'Spirit of Youth' award.

.....

Babu · Post by **Babu** » 11 Aug 2010, 22:59

I wish Sri. Arunan Sriskandarajah who wrote the subject article participate in our discussions to throw more light on his observation or conclusion that CM is stagnant.

I am enjoying all your inputs. CM is not stagnant regarding popularity looking at the number of sabhas in Chennai and the packed crowds. One cannot get tickets for the very popular artists. I do hope Jaya TV will host another Carnatic Music Idol contest this year and make it an annual feature to promote CM among youngsters.

Regards

Babu

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Aug 2010, 00:49

shyama-priya wrote:kutcheribuzz says differently : [news item May 2007, so things may have changed ]

Varma... "I have been teaching her for two years".

Yes, things would have changed since 2007, which is three years ago. I too had previously checked the internet and, I think, seen what you saw.

1920veeyens · Post by **1920veeyens** » 12 Aug 2010, 03:44

Re# 25, the equilibrium should be dynamic assimilating any improvements and new concepts which comet o our attention instea of being blind and deaf to surroundings

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Aug 2010, 04:19

Yes Sir! Positively!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 12 Aug 2010, 08:00

In my view, 'stagnant' = 'not much new or interesting in the development of the art form'.

That has nothing to do with the size of crowds in sangeet sabhas, or five generations in a family all being CM exponents, or increase in the number of CM students, or "fusion" with european/western music (which do not obey the same principles as Indian Classical Music).

My detailed views on the topic are probably well known to many on this fine forum here. So, I'll just give my answer (opinion) to the thread title question. Yes, CM is quite stagnant.

SR

gita · Post by **gita** » 12 Aug 2010, 18:00

'Still water runs deep' ! If it doesn't stagnate, and changes, it won't be carnatic music at all !

gita · Post by **gita** » 12 Aug 2010, 18:03

My point has already been covered by kssr, sorry for the repetition !

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 12 Aug 2010, 18:36

kssr wrote:There is something called "Neutral Equilibrium", where there is continuous change but the overall effect is, no change. One example is the surface of a liquid body (in some conditions). Some of the liquid molecules evaporate and some molecules condense. Is the sea water changing or stagnant?

The same applies to CM. It appears stagnant but it is always changing. ........ It cannot be imagined how such a dynamic type of music can ever be called stagnant

Quote:
Neutral equilibrium (Mech.), the kind of equilibrium of a
body so placed that when moved slighty it neither tends to
return to its former position nor depart more widely from
it, as a perfect sphere or cylinder on a horizontal plane.
End quote.

This applies to CM too. Any change made does not make it come back to what was branded as the former standard, unless the change is reversed in the next move. A liquid evaporating and condensing so that the net change is zero is not called "neutral equilibrium" but "dynamic equilibrium, i.e., it changes from A to B but reverts back to A. In a neutral equilibrium it is changed forever like the concert format introduced by Ariyakkudi or the margam format in bharathanatyam. Another example is the RTV or RTK versions done by BMK and TMK. It stays for a while at the changed format ( a new equilibrium) until another change is effected to shift it again (either back to its original or a new position).
This situation is in contradiction to the concept of conforming to tradition. I have seen statements like, "so and so's music conforms to tradition but at the same time is adaptational". I do not agree with the statement. It is straddling for the sake of straddling (in straight talk it means equivocation). The moment adaptation begins, tradition changes, like Darwin's evolution. You cannot call that "no change". To me everything, including Godhead, is evolutionary. That means once a change is effected it is not the same thing anymore. Even if the change is reversed it may not conform to the original in every detail.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Aug 2010, 19:29

I like the term 'dynamic equilibrium' where the new is assimilated and integrated.
Unfortunately CM at present is doing neither.
For example SKR introduced dvimadhyama ragas and provided fine examples
but the efforts died with him.
Nobody sings the fine compositions of new vaggeyakarakas but only do lipservice.
Case in point is ignoring even the nice compositions of DRS/Arasi/SR/Ramaraj/... even
from our own fold. These are in the publiic domain with no copyright restrictions.
Present day (talented/successful) performers have mostly set their mind only on 'cash' and are
ignoring the development of the Arts itself.
Yes! I agree with SR! CM is stagnant!!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Aug 2010, 19:31

does the stagnant CM start stinking like stagnant water?

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 12 Aug 2010, 20:27

CM for me is more like a river, flowing all the time. What I might appreciate / critisise might not hold for others. MDR while alive was anot appreciated but now he is revered and rightly so IMO. Who knows? Maybe 30 years after people will probably say "Who is this new guy? You should have heard TMK singing Viribhoni with neraval and swarams".

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Aug 2010, 20:34

VK RAMAN wrote:does the stagnant CM start stinking like stagnant water?

To my knowledge Maanasarovar does not stink! (I guess)

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 12 Aug 2010, 20:39

mahakavi wrote:
Quote:
Neutral equilibrium (Mech.), the kind of equilibrium of a
body so placed that when moved slighty it neither tends to
return to its former position nor depart more widely from
it, as a perfect sphere or cylinder on a horizontal plane.
End quote.

There is one more common example for Neutral Equilibrium- The Thanjavur Thalayatti Bommai- If you push to one side or front or back, always comes back to its original position. Second example is that given by MK, sphere or cylinder when it is rolled assumes a similar but not same position.

The liquid surface equilibrium is of course, Dynamic Equilibrium and that is my mistake calling it NE.

The essence of the argument whichever way you look at it, is that CM is a dynamic entity and not a stagnant one, whether or not the change is to one's liking.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 13 Aug 2010, 01:32

No, CM is not stagnant.
Now, if you are asking about the dabba noise that the likes of AR Rehman churn out, that's a whole another matter...

This whole thread to me is a 'troll thread'. Don't feed it!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Aug 2010, 02:02

In one word, CM is "evolving". The only caveat is that the basic structure should not be messed up. Experimentation is the name of the game. If it is received well by the mainstream audience it will survive. For that matter many good ideas were rejected in the beginning only to be gobbled up later. The purists and those who dwell in the past might say CM is going down the drain (not just stagnant). It is somewhat like the
class teacher who laments every year that the previous year students were the best. The avant garde musicians of today would be hailed as the standard bearers 30 years from now.

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 13 Aug 2010, 02:44

Rasika911 wrote: This december season we will see Sri T.M. Krishna sabha hopping as he had opted not to sing. Source: His website.
...

Even if I do not always see eye to eye with TMK on small topics, his choices are always admirable to me. I have not heard (yet) of even top-tier vidwans sitting out the December season voluntarily so that he can listen to _others_. How many vidwans have ever put a premium on listening to others over performing themselves, even once, forget for a whole season? Speaks volumes of his self-security and his seriousness.

-Then Paanan

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Aug 2010, 04:33

Like you, I'm very happy to see vidvAns and vidUshis in the concerts of their gurus (even when they are not playing the tambUrA), of students and peers.
Yes, TMK will be sabha-hopping along with rasikAs. Even while he was busy with his own schedule, I have seen him in a few concerts some years ago, his wife Sangeetha too in one. TNS, his and our (!) vidyaarthi NSG. Vijay Siva, Abhishek Raghuram. I've seen Gayatri Girish, Viji Natarajan and S. Varadarajan. Sanjay, in spite of his busy schedule is there when his students sing and I've seen him in Nedunuri's concert.
However busy they are, I'm surprised to see several mrudangists in concerts of others! Our own Balaji, Manoj Siva, Arun Prakash and so on. Of course, TRS and Jayalkshmi Santhanam are regulars. I am sure others have spotted several other performers. I don't think that when I was growing up, way long ago, vidvAns considered attending concerts of others. May be I've forgotten. Yet, MSS and Sadasivam were there in the audience, I remember.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 13 Aug 2010, 07:14

Flute Ramani( in his younger days)& Amrita Murali are two I have seen regularly attend other's concerts whan they are not performing themselves. Of Course musicians of Golden era used to attend each other's concerts on a regular basis. Kumari Kamala I include in this list too.....VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Aug 2010, 13:18

"Counterpoint"

Maybe TMK wants to enjoy the feel and atmosphere of the Season from the audience side. As to listening to other artists, remember that Chennai-resident performers have all year in which to do that, and to do it in relaxed, unhurried fashion, with no worries about where they have to be in an hour's time.

The "Season" should be for the audience, many of whom are here only for a precious few weeks, or even days, at that time. I suspect they would rather see their favourite performers on the stage, rather than in the audience.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Aug 2010, 14:16

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 13 Aug 2010, 15:11

cmlover wrote:<edited>

And imagine the scene where he is at a Vijay Siva concert, and is secretly recording it! And gets caught for this!
Another scenario: VS concert, suddenly TMK gets up from the audience, starts singing the anupallavi and walks up to the stage, and joins VS on the stage! (all the while keeping his mini-recorder on, of course!)

<edited>

I bet his chelas will be doing this for him, while he is busy recordings others' concerts!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Aug 2010, 15:45

cmlover wrote:<edited>

For someone who bristles at the slightest insult and goes to great lengths to ban anyone who attacks your absurd views, I find it incredulous that you resort to this kind of routine mud-slinging.