Forum laws

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Aug 2010, 16:32

Nick H wrote:Ho, yes indeed... he said some clever things, and we can enjoy them, as well as appreciating that he was very much the man for the job at the time --- but he thought and said some dreadful things, too. I don't think he was very fond of India: best we leave him out of this forum!

On the contrary, I think he was very fond of India... When basted and roasted slowly until just right

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 13 Aug 2010, 17:14

cmlover wrote:'cani nIrAdu' also has been interpreted as Take bath in running water (i.e., a river)

Sanais-chara means slow-moving planet 'sani'.
Sanair-gangam means where river GangA moves slowly.

Sani-nIr may, therefore, mean slow-moving river water!
THANK YOU!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Aug 2010, 20:17

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: The saying 'taiyal sol kELel' is usually translated to mean Don't listen to a woman (taiyal)
Yes, a few people tend to translate like that, may be to put down their womenfolk! As you yourself have mentioned, how such a controversial statement could come from a woman herself?

'taikkum sol' means pricking words; 'taiyal sol' means prickly words.

The word "tai" (transitive verb) in Thamizh means "to sew", "to pierce", among others. "taiyal" to my knowledge does not mean piercing. "taiyal" is always a noun to mean sewing or needle work, beauty, woman, or cloud. Only if it is an adjective, then "taiyal sol" can be remotely construed (if at all) as "piercing word" or prickly word. Besides, there is no reason to advise "don't listen to prickly words" since it is not a listener's choice when somebody utters those. The proper advice should be "don't utter prickly words" or "ignore insulting remarks"
"taikkum" is an adjective meaning "piercing"---taikkum muL (piercing thorn). I will revert to this avvaiyAr saying later.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Aug 2010, 20:26

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: Sanais-chara means slow-moving planet 'sani'.
Sanair-gangam means where river GangA moves slowly.

Sani-nIr may, therefore, mean slow-moving river water!
THANK YOU!

avvaiyAr, to my knolwledge, did not take the Sanskrit word "sanai" (meaning slow), then converted it to "sani" and then use it to mean "bathe in slow moving water". There is no difference between slow-moving and fast-moving water in cleansing properties. She did not prohibit taking bath by poruing water on your body with water from a bucket drawn from the well. I will get back to this in a while as to what she might have meant.

PS: The word sanaiscaran (slow moving) meaning the planet Saturn has been distorted into Thamizh as "sanIswaran". Sani is not an Iswaran. The planet was mostly feared for evil-doing. It is worshipped by some believers to ward off evil.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 13 Aug 2010, 22:21

kelel = kel + el (listen and accept).

thaiyal sol kelel.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Aug 2010, 22:48

sani nIrADu -----> asani nIrADu
sani does not refer to Saturday, nor slow moving river, nor cold water.
It is a distortion of the word "asani". It means "sAmbrANi leaves" (leaves of frankincense tree). These leaves have heathful effects. avvaiyAr is asking us to bathe in the water which is mixed with sAmbrANi leaves. When the leaves were not readily available women used to burn the benzoin gum (from the same tree mentioned above) and dry their hair with it. Also it (burning the gum) is used to disinfect the whole house.

For a well researched article click on the following URL
http://www.tamilauthors.com/01/122.html

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Aug 2010, 23:05

carnaticlaw wrote:kelel = kel + el (listen and accept).

thaiyal sol kelel.

While it is tempting to accept this kEL +El with El representing acceptance (as in tiruppAvai endings such as --ElOr embAvAy-- that is not what avvaiyAr intended.
avvaiyAr has used "El" as the suffix for commands which indicate "don't do". Examples; azhagu alAdana seyyEl (Don't do improper things), nanRi maRavEl (don't be ungrateful) etc.

As for "do" commands she goes straight as : "iLamayiR kal" (learn while young), aiyam iTTu uN (eat after offering alms to poor folks).

While I agree "taiyal" means woman in this context there could be a distortion in one of the letters in "taiyal sol kELEl". I will research it.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 13 Aug 2010, 23:08

nice information. great link. The author claims the word 'sani' doesn't mean 'slow'. Looks like it cannot be etymologically traced back to validate the meaning 'slow'.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 13 Aug 2010, 23:14

carnaticlaw wrote:kelel = kel + el (listen and accept). thaiyal sol kelel.

avvaiyAr has used a number of such words advising not to do certain things. Here are a few examples: à®šà¯†à®¯à¯‡à®²à¯, à®•à¯ˆà®µà®¿à®Ÿà¯‡à®²à¯, à®µà®¿à®°à¯à®®à¯à®ªà¯‡à®²à¯, à®®à®±à®µà¯‡à®²à¯, à®šà¯Šà®²à¯à®²à¯‡à®²à¯, à®µà®¿à®³à®®à¯à®ªà¯‡à®²à¯, à®¤à®¿à®°à®¿à®¯à¯‡à®²à¯, à®•à¯Šà®Ÿà¯‡à®²à¯, à®ªà®•à®°à¯‡à®²à¯, à®ªà®´à®•à¯‡à®²à¯, à®¤à®Ÿà¯à®®à®¾à®±à¯‡à®²à¯, à®ªà¯‡à®šà¯‡à®²à¯ ...

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Aug 2010, 23:41

Here is my take/interpretation on the remaining two AtticcUDi verses.
1. maN paRittu uNNEl. MaN = land; paRi = take by force. uNNEl is just a general usage to indicate utilize such land for your personal benefit.
In the olden days land was a principal and perhaps only property for many. If somebody had a small piece of land and borrowed money putting the land as a collateral and if he falls into hard times, the lender could and would forcibly acquire the land (not at its fair value). That is what avvaiyAr prohibits. Do not grab (though unfair means) somebody's land by force and use it for your benefit

2. taiyal sol kELEl -- Do not (listen to) pay attention to fabricated utterings (rumors)
tai = to sew. It could mean patch up. By extension you figure it (taiyal sol) is something that is not legitimate/authentic but fabricated by someone with ulterior motives (essentially a rumor)

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 05:57

sramesh wrote: Good morning Mam and rasika friends, Sometimes keeping in mind the help and service of great people I try to scribble to express my gratitude, because of hastiness and lack of time to sit with the computer I am missing a lot, I am always grateful to you mam and all the rasika friends leading me to an apt path and shall be careful before expressing my views/posts. Thanking you

sramesh:
Just a quick question. Who is this "Mam" you are referring to above?

You still have to come out clean with respect to some of your remarks in different threads. You have been repeating the "visually handicapped" term umpteen times. My questions to you are:
1. Is Mrs. Maheswari Venkatraman visually handicapped? Is she the vINa instrumentalist? Does she have 28 years experience in the art or is she 28 years old?
2. Is she your guru or colleague or friend?
3. You mention Gayatri Madam to whom you wanted to report about the "bad behavior" of forum members. Is she the VINA vidUshi E. Gayatri.?
4. In (3) above why do you bring her name in your posts unnecessarily? She obviously cannot "discipline" us "naughty" kids in this forum. You know that.
5. In which school and city do you work as a music teacher?
Please come out clean and provide answers to all the 5 questions above ---one by one.
We are not here to persecute anybody. If you act strange (which you did so far) we pointed it out initially and when you didn't rectify your ways but asked me to "eat sand and drink water" then we take liberties and go on a humorous onslaught. So, the message here is: come out clean. It does not matter whether you are computer-savvy or not. Take your time and answer one question at a time if you have to. Be honest and reveal your proper identity. You don't have to reveal your true name and personal details. Just mention your institution and answer the questions given above. That way some of our members may be able to help your institution too.

Once you do all that we will help you (at least I will, I promise) to the extent possible. This forum exists to help those who need help in the field of music, lyrics, meanings, and possibly connections. The discussions can get whacky if some poster goes on an accusing binge without any basis. Also as others pointed out this forum is not a marketing entity/advertising outfit. As you know life is not fair. Whether one is handicapped or not life doles out its share of fortunes and misfortunes unevenly on people whether they deserve them or not.
There, let us begin the journey.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 14 Aug 2010, 06:33

Is Mam an accepted short form of Madam? I think he addresses the Almighty first in all his posts and probably calls Him, Mam (with a capital M).

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 06:52

CL:
If it is almighty that is addressed as "Mam", does one say Good morning to the almighty--su+prabhAtam perhaps?
Anyway let us wait for sramesh to provide the answers.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 14 Aug 2010, 08:27

mahkavi,
thanks for the convincing interpretations of:-
'maN paRittu uNNEl' and 'taiyal sol kELEl'

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 08:36

PB:
What I wrote is the most plausible explanation but not the final one unless certified by a Thamizh professor.
The "taiyal sol kELEl" has been interpreted as "do not listen to what women say since they act emotionally first and rationally next" by some, which is considered tantamount to male chauvinism. A modification of that was "if a woman utters evil words, do not pay attention"--this was backed up by incidents from epics, especially that of mandarai who instigated kaikeyi to ask for the boons.
But I tend to go with the milder version of "don't listen to rumors"--- which is harmless. Who knows what avvaiyAr had in mind?

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 14 Aug 2010, 20:34

MK,

thaiyal also means 'alangaram' and 'pugazhchi'. These meanings will be more appropriate here I think. Please correct me if I am wrong.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 20:53

carnaticlaw wrote:MK,

thaiyal also means 'alangaram' and 'pugazhchi'. These meanings will be more appropriate here I think. Please correct me if I am wrong.

CL:
I looked up the word in the dictionary of Tamil Virtual Academy. One of the meanings given is "that which is adorned, decorated". Except for the meanings, woman, or cloud, all other meanings are connected with sewing/stitching. The adornment could be on a fabric.

I can't rule out the meaning "don't listen to flattery". But I am somewhat reticent to accept it too. That is because if somebody praises you on your face you may be embarassed but just don't walk away in a huff (not wanting to hear it). That is not courteous. avvaiyAr wouldn't recommend that. " kELEl" is the crucial word here. She could have said "taiyal sol nambEl" if she meant pugazci by taiyal. I will leave it at that. One needs the caliber of A. C. Bradley (who wrote commentaries on Shakespearean tragedies) to figure out the meanings of many one-liners of avvaiyAr.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 14 Aug 2010, 23:18

'taiyal sol kELEl'
There is only one honest meaning. Do not listen to the words of women. If that is what she said, that is what she meant. It is not an uncommon idea in those days (may be sometimes even today). Proverbs of that type can be seen in other languages as well. I have read something much worse in Manu needhi (I will have to dig up to find the exact stuff). Anyway, why should every one try so hard to make an interpretation which is not there, so that we feel comfortable, in this day?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Aug 2010, 01:34

kssr:
What you maintain is the usual strain that has been going on for ages. We don't know if that was what avvaiyAr meant. Leave the derogatory aspect out and think about why avvaiyAr would use such a broad brush stroke. She could qualify that statement with another word. Besides, most men, especially in brahminical households (in the villages at least) used to listen to their wives for their valuable counsel. Yes, women had wise counsel to offer on certain matters. Also when certain transactions took place in the front room, the wife would call her husband "sittE ingE vAngO" from the kitchen and tell him how to proceed which would escape the man in the midst of the transaction.

As for manu code, it was all male-oriented and meant for that particular time such as times of war, work in the fields etc. For example even in rig vEdam there are statements like "let no female child be born in this house" when the prevailing need was for male babies so that they would grow up and fight wars, or work in the fields to raise crops or even do manual labor which the women could not do.

Several proverbs have been misinterpreted likewise, due to a wrong letter interposed or a missing letter etc. For example, there is a proverb "maN kudiraiyai nambi ARRil iRangAdE" (do not get into the river riding a mud horse). The meaning has been interepreted as "do not get into any venture if your means are flimsy". Not so. Why should anyone even offer such advice knowing the mud horse is not capable of locomotion, let alone it would dissolve in the water. Any simile/metaphor used should also be meaningful. The actual word was "mangu tirai" which means "hazy light" meaning mirage or kAnal nIR. If the sun beats on the river bed (in summer) the surface would appear to have water but if you think there is some water and want to cross it, the hot sand would burn your feet. So lots of distortions have occurred in the proverbs.
avvaiyAr did use her sparse words with great care.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 15 Aug 2010, 09:13

What if avvayAr in reality had said "thaiyal sol kELeer ! " which with passage of time was twisted to kELEl. Just a stretch.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 15 Aug 2010, 21:35

I have read something much worse in Manu needhi (I will have to dig up to find the exact stuff).

Manusmrti,
Ch IX, verse 3:

Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in
youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for
independence

Ch IX, verse 17:

(When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of
their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and
bad conduct.

Ch IX, verse 94: (in U.S this is a first degree felony), even consensual s*e*x with a minor is considered statutory rape. Only in India, inspector Rathore can get away with molesting a minor - He follows manusmriti I guess

A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him,
or a man of twenty-four a girl eight years of age; if (the performance of) his
duties would (otherwise) be impeded, (he must marry) sooner.

nota bine: EXCUSE ME, WHY IS THE WORD S*E*X CENSORED IN THIS FORUM. THIS IS RIDICULOUS AND HYPOCRITICAL TO SAY THE LEAST - DO YOU WANT TO DISCUSS JAVALIS NOW? PREPOSTEROUS.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Aug 2010, 22:08

As to all but the last part... yup: this is b a d

As to the second-to-last paragraph... Hollywood film directors, it seems, can get away with it too (as long as they careful what countries they visit).

As to the last part... whilst the idea might appal us today, I guess this was written in a time when life expectancy was a fraction of what it is today. I guess it is also probably practised in remote corners or India --- and other parts of the world too, of course.

As to the pink bit... yes its daft. Probably the software came with a default list of words!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Aug 2010, 22:09

CL:
Read this post quickly.
I am with you on your nota bene.
Expect your post to be quarantined soon. I posted one humorous topic earlier which had a couple of asterisked four letter words. That is "no,no" in this forum and hence was removed. You are right that most people have dual attire--one for public consumption and another for what they actually are.

As for the manu smriti, besides what you quoted, there are many more denigrating remarks about women which was a source for perpetrating female feticide and infanticide in many parts of India. Hypocrisy, thy name is Indian!

Pl read the article I wrote 4 years ago on the subject of female feticide and infanticide.
http://archives.chennaionline.com/colum ... 2child.asp

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Aug 2010, 22:12

Nick H wrote:As to the pink bit... yes its daft. Probably the software came with a default list of words!

NickH:
It is not just the software but also the policy. Will it be OK if we just place 4 asterisks or 3 asterisks without any letters at the beginning or end?

Let me try.
****

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Aug 2010, 22:17

CL, calm down a bit, will you? Not every little thing you experience at the forum calls for expressions of righteous indignation including the H word. I myself do not know exactly, but what Nick says seems to be the most likely thing. Also, contextual auto editing is a very tough thing to implement in software and so sometimes the software's capabilities are not optimal. The same is true of what riled you up in the first post, those statements are part of the standard software release. I do not think the Admin ( not me ) even customized it much.

( I am still reeling from your claim in the first post that you think the mods are liable for lawsuits since the forum policy states that it reserve the right to edit posts. If that is so, all of us mods have to seriously reconsider being a mod. )

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 15 Aug 2010, 22:23

VK,

as they say, no dog is above law. All carnatic intellectuality comes next (in fact, it doesn't even come next, probably respect comes next).carnatic intellect probably is down the list.

Need more clarifications?

Regarding the H word, is it not synonymous with the B word (if you are wondering what the B word is, it is one of the castes in the Hindu system)

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Aug 2010, 22:25

WANT TO DISCUSS JAVALIS NOW?

CL;
That is what I meant about two attires. If it is mixed with music (which is considered sacred) profanity (which is a taboo) is wonderful. Just for the sake of riling why don't you start a thread on jAvaLis and let us discuss the full literal meaning of the lyrics there. Then our camouflage will be exposed.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Aug 2010, 22:31

CL, let us not expand and steer this to side topics which can get quite heated. My reactions are limited and narrow to the points I mentioned.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 15 Aug 2010, 22:49

VK,

I am sorry about my last remark (at least in this context). I am a person who is against autocracy in any form. Every person in a society should live in a mechanism where he can defend himself if he has not violated the rules and regulations of the system. Of course, people who choose to stay outside such a compact are branded outlaws.

In our case, the users are "powerless" (which is OK because they have yielded up to the administrators the right to use force, thereby entering the realm the forum rules. But, if moderators get autocratic anytime, the individual stands up and uses his constitutional rights.

So please do not subdue any person's feelings if he/she feels certain things are unjust.

thanks

MK,

honestly, I wouldn't mind that

Personally, I wanna partake in the exposing business

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Aug 2010, 23:16

CL:
Profanity and obscenity do not have a precise definition. You see it when you can recognize it. Even news media in the US and elsewhere could use profane words if they go with the flow of the subject. You just cannot utter it as an exclamatory cuss word (like a single word). I agree that to be civil it is better not to use those at the drop of a hat (calling it Russian or French words).

What bugs me in the case of jAvaLis is that there are certain songs where the lyrics are so explicit even when the subjects in the song are gods and goddesses, all in the name of sringAram. Give me a break! That is a new definition of sringAram, I guess.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Aug 2010, 23:56

Thank you for the link to your article. It is often amazing to discover what else our forumites do --- and sometimes touching and moving too.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 16 Aug 2010, 07:10

MK,

this is how britannica defines javali :

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/301750/javali

It mentions something about romantic-devotional movement!! I do not understand this. Is it possible for you to elaborate on "romantic-devotional" ?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Aug 2010, 08:09

Both padams and jAvaLis deal in general with a nAyaki falling in love with a divine being such as Shiva, Krishna, Murugan etc.Padams are milder in the expression of the sentiment of love while jAvaLi is a bit racy. For example in the padam "teruvil vArAno" (khamAs) by MuttuttANDavar, the lovelorn devotee looks out for the passing procession of the idol of NaTarAja hoping to have dharshan and a loving glare of compassion from the lord to assuage her longing. Some padams deal with the nAyaki sending her best friend to carry a message to the lord. In the rAgamAligai padam "sindai aRindu vADi..." the message is sent by the nAyaki through her friend to Lord Murugan in tiruccendUr, who the nAyaki says captured her heart. The latter padam even mentions that the lord touched her and kissed her. But the overall message is the love or devotion the nAyaki has for the lord. In this respect the padam is devotionally romantic.

jAvaLi is a different kind of animal while bearing similarity to padam in being more romantic is however less devotional in its core. While retaining the structure of the padam, romanticism takes the lead over devotion, sometimes describing male-female intimacy. The credit for bringing romanticism into padams goes to Kshetragna. He lived in the midst of dEvadAsis. Kavikunjara Bharathi writes "kAsirundAl ingE vArum--summA kaDan enRAl vanda vazhi pArum" (if you have money come over, if it is credit--i.e., get now, pay later-- get going on your way). That tells you that this was a practice among dEvadAsis of yore. There are other jAvaLis mainly in Telugu which describe in very racy terms the intimate male-female relationship , even involving gods and goddesses. My take is that jAvaLis are vicarious expressions of senior men-composers. The reason that they survive is because of the pleasant rAgams in which they are composed and sung by musicians., although jAvaLi singing is almost non-existent now . The current day musicians recognized the ribaldry evident in those, especially those who know the language well. In the olden days the dEvadAsis used to dance for such songs sung by musicians, which offered a cloak of legitimacy. I could write a thesis on the whole subject.
There, you decide whether it is partial pornography or not.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 16 Aug 2010, 08:20

Thanks MK .
Go no further ...

Glad Hugh Hefner has not heard of this yet . Would have applied for a patent by now .
Some more leads on why Padams and Javalis are a challenge ...
Musically speaking.
http://www.mediafire.com/?2hp6c9a6e2d769e

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Aug 2010, 08:24

Nick H wrote:Thank you for the link to your article. It is often amazing to discover what else our forumites do --- and sometimes touching and moving too.

Thanks, Nick. The practice of female feticide (after finding through ultrasonics) exists even now, mainly among the lower strata people. Unfortunate, but true! The only way that sensible folks can help is to adopt such babies from the government-run institutions. Some NGOs are actively working to forestall such practice.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 16 Aug 2010, 08:40

"kAsirundAl ingE vArum--summA kaDan enRAl vanda vazhi pArum"

- wow, that is kind of explicit.

mankuthimma, could you please translate the hindi prelude for me?

thanks

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Aug 2010, 21:02

Many moons ago, someone had posted a link to a blogspot that carried translations of padams and jAvaLis - in particular, of 'Siva dIkshA...' - the liberties mannArurangA takes with the heroine, who has been indoctrinated by Saivaites, and doesn't want to associate with the parama vaishNava (if you can get to watch Smt. Priyadarshini Govind's mature treatment of this piece, you forget the crudeness and enjoy the sheer musicality of the piece as I was able to nearly two years ago - http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... ini+govind).
padams, while featuring nAyaka-nAyaki bhAva, offer distilled essence of the rAga and are very difficult to sing, involving very critical breath control techniques and the slow pace is a challenge to maintain kAlapramANa. jAvaLis are earthy, with not much musicality to recommend them. narthaki.com carried a piece with a very lucid description of an abusive jAvaLi where a 13 year old girl describes how she doesn't want to be forced into the bed of a 60-year old lech. While it is certain that these forms are dying out, I find it hard to make a case to keep ones like these on. I certainly do not want my 14-year old learning them or dancing them.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Aug 2010, 21:31

Ravi,
As women, we find some of the lyrics extremely demeaning, but they reflect the times which we women are very happy we don't live in! Yet, there are more battles to fight, even today.
What you say about the musical richness of the jAvalis cannot be ignored. That's the very reason they have survived this long. Their musical quality is something we cannot ovrlook. In dances (though I don't know much about nATyam), from what I've seen, I agree (as with your example) that the way they are presented counts. To give an example opposite to this, I've heard and seen in concerts the beautiful kaNNammA songs of BhArati interpreted in cheap and uninspiring ways.
Again, are we going to say that varNams should be abolished too?
Let jAvalis be there. We can ignore them if we are averse to them. We don't need a whole movement to abolish them in the way the reformers of India fought and won the battle against child marriages and other atrocities. There are more compelling causes to fight for today in our modern India as infanticide.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 16 Aug 2010, 22:51

That's the very reason they have survived this long.

Not true. People were and are voyeuristic and this form of music fed them. CM is not all that sacred. If you think it is, suit yourself.

thanks

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Aug 2010, 23:14

carnaticlaw wrote:People were and are voyeuristic and this form of music fed them. CM is not all that sacred. If you think it is, suit yourself.
thanks

CL:
I would not use such a broad brush stroke. CM was and is sacred, at least in intent. In the past some composers wrote jAvaLis to experience some imaginary sensual pleasures. It suited the musicians also to sing them in the same spirit. But as CM evolved (not stagnant as supposed by some), such jAvaLis are out (even though some hardcore souls maintain it is all sringAram). Imagine how the ladies in the audience would react if the musician sings, "kaiyil kAsillAdavan kaDavuL AnAlum kadavaic cAttaDi" (the advice given by a mother dEvadAsi to her daughter to close the door when the person visiting has no money even if he is god).

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 16 Aug 2010, 23:30

MK,

All this talk about being sacred and profane seems to be relative to s*e*x (s*e*x as not in gender, but as in coitus, mating etc). But, why? Animals mate in the open. I think this taboo was inserted into the evolutionary progress after clothing was invented. The oldest clothed body yet discovered (dressed in fur trousers and a decorated shirt) has been dated to about 33000 BC and was found in Russia.

So that doesn't fit wwll with my theory because these forms of music has been there much before that time. Why has there been a taboo discussing s*e*x? Did it have an evolutionary advantage?
thanks
CL

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Aug 2010, 01:14

CL:
Did you say 33 milleniums or 3.3 milleniums BCE? Either way music was not at all as refined then as it is now. It began with a crude sound and slowly progressed into a lullaby before taking all other forms. Music in South India was perhaps born in the first few centuries of CE or BCE. It perhaps started with the temples during worship time when some devotee in a trance started uttering bhakthi-laden lyrics. More than a self-expression of melody, CM started as an expression of devotion. Prose was dull and hence poetic form added some charm. When spiritual matters took precedence matters of the flesh were naturally relegated to the background. So anything relating to flesh was considered taboo. Mind you it was part of life alright, without which propagation of posterity was not possible. But it was rather a duty than an obsession. Of course, it became so for a few individuals and that is how the oldest profession was developled. However, for CM bhakthi alone was enough and there was no need to introduce sexual connotations into the music because it was not integral to music. They are two different entities in reality. A little sensuality was introduced in the form of jAvaLi and it appealed to a few souls just like some men liked to play on the side. But as CM evolved the path widened and hence it became a case of "No need and so no deed".

The reason dEvadAsi system went out of existence and bharathanAtyam almost died was because the sacred profession of dancing (sadir) in the temples was abused by a few pernicious individuals and the whole system came into disrepute. Prodded by some civilized minds within India the Anti-nautch act was enacted and with it the the famous art of bharathnATyam was about to be extinguished. A few daring souls like Rukmini Arundale resurrected it and gave the profession a positive spin although sringAram remains a tiny part of the dance. But the main theme of BharathanATyam remains devotion too.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Aug 2010, 02:19

CL - finally, I have had the time to go over your posts, and I was wondering about:
1) The purpose of your first post: was it to warn the admin and mods that if posts were moderated or edited they (the admins and mods) would be considered authors? If that is indeed so, then, as VK said, everyone will have to reconsider their roles.
2) If you want to discuss about s-e-x (not gender or its identity) and can do it in a non-puerile way, please do so - if the discussions are informative and interesting, people will join in. However, going on about not being able to discuss s*e*x is getting a little stale. Unless you want to discuss this in the context of CM compositions, I suggest you use the Member's Stuff and Lounge where the topics discussed cover a wide gamut of subjects!!
3) Finally, could you please state the evidence you have to support your statement that erotic poems (padams and jAvaLis included) have survived because of the voyeuristic rasikas and practitioners of the art form, or is it just your opinion?

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 17 Aug 2010, 02:30

1) The purpose of your first post: was it to warn the admin and mods that if posts were moderated or edited they (the admins and mods) would be considered authors? If that is indeed so, then, as VK said, everyone will have to reconsider their roles.

Being an administrator comes with a certain responsibility. If you want to shy away from it, I cant stop you. And by the way, looks like there are more moderators than users.

and for a fact, you guys resort to IP based blocking. There can be more than one user sharing the same IP (for example, husband and wife). In the process you are depriving innocent people of expressing their opinions.

2) If you want to discuss about s-e-x (not gender or its identity) and can do it in a non-puerile way, please do so - if the discussions are informative and interesting, people will join in. However, going on about not being able to discuss s*e*x is getting a little stale. Unless you want to discuss this in the context of CM compositions, I suggest you use the Member's Stuff and Lounge where the topics discussed cover a wide gamut of subjects!!

The topic of s-e-x is being related to CM ( more so than other threads which apparently discuss CM) - one of the threads discussed music so much that one of the veteran members took off!

3) Finally, could you please state the evidence you have to support your statement that erotic poems (padams and jAvaLis included) have survived because of the voyeuristic rasikas and practitioners of the art form, or is it just your opinion?

You have to apply logic here. Slightest amount of common sense will help. Why would erotic poems survive? Why eroticism in the first place? Why was CM a medium? It is not evidence you need here but a hot cup of tea to relax and contemplate.

will be happy to answer further questions.

thanks
cl

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 17 Aug 2010, 02:35

And stop issuing illegitimate threats like "informing ISPs". Rectify these errors before you exercise your power as a moderator. I am not your subordinate.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 17 Aug 2010, 02:39

If you are one of many moderators, please tell us users which country this site is being hosted. Usually privacy policy page publishes the physical address or 'office' of their website.

You don't have one.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Aug 2010, 02:50

CL:
The global moderators here are: srkris,cmlover,vasantakokilam, and Lakshman

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 17 Aug 2010, 02:56

If that is true, we are left with three active moderators (because one of them is on a sabbatical). And why do non-moderators talk on behalf of the moderators? I think sureshvv's 'establishment' theory is true and visible. We are not in a communist regime, are we? IP based blocking (let alone psoting messages, the user can't even view messages - like communist countries blocking google) and issuing nonsensical threats. I think any individual, in a civil way, can express is views.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Aug 2010, 02:57

CL:
Since you are "starving" for discussion of eroticism in CM, I shall soon start a thread under General Discussions on "padams and jAvaLis". If CM has it in its fold why not discuss it here, like every other aspect we do?

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 17 Aug 2010, 03:02

Honestly, I feel the discussion so far (regarding eroticism) has been very related to CM. And the discussion that preceded was on etymology and meaning of certain words (part of sAhityam).