IS CARNATIC MUSIC STAGNANT

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Aug 2010, 08:55

MK - No , Not Kabaddi - people slap their thighs there
With due respect to the artists I will not post more exasperating clippings.
His partner, with the harmonium is an apt example for a Stoic . There are moments when the ebullient partner reaches within millimetres of his ear lobe , but he does not flinch .
SR
Look out for the fellow behind , in a white shirt , who is wondering if the tent will fall down anytime

Hope this has cleared the air here a bit.

sramesh · Post by **sramesh** » 14 Aug 2010, 09:32

music is a ocean and the audience are always loving musician and defenitely proud to have a Vocalist like TmK Sir. There is nothing for misunderstanding, we should allow the ocean to form more waves to a maximum level of sunami like TNS sir, then that wiil never fade even generations to come, see how we couldnt even imagin TNS sirs"s concert I am not brilliant to that range how God create or Send people like this to our earth.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Aug 2010, 09:43

Quite entertaining, thimma. Thanks for the link. Though it is over the top, it did not bother me much.

I do not know how I will feel if I have to watch that for 3 hours!! I agree the harmonium artist is a perfect balancing act.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 14 Aug 2010, 12:06

mahakavi wrote: In the case of a point/counterpoint it is difficult to point out who was crossing the line of norm first. Anyway let us put this to rest (sureshvv: are you in agreement to close this chapter now?)

Yes. I promise to let it settle until cml's next tirade against this generation of musicians/performers.

smala · Post by **smala** » 14 Aug 2010, 12:30

Thimma - I keep getting this msg for recent upload on this thread.

NOTICE: No servers are currently available with the requested data on them. Please retry your request in a moment.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Aug 2010, 13:49

SP-hariniraghavan
Send me an email at [email protected] are other ways I can help you out , depending on your location.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Aug 2010, 14:35

mahakavi wrote:I vehemently protest this.

"The gent doth protest too much, methinks."
MK, you are way too late. The rasikas' union has been formed, lots of forum members are active in it, we are planning a dharna infront of sabhas, etc.
Only two things remain to be done: i) select a name for the union, and ii) choose a ragam for the 'inquilab zindabad'.
Suggestions welcome.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Aug 2010, 15:06

I dont know why , but I am reminded of this cartoon Today..

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Aug 2010, 15:06

shyama-priya wrote:Thimma - I keep getting this msg for recent upload on this thread.

NOTICE: No servers are currently available with the requested data on them. Please retry your request in a moment.

I encountered the same problem.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Aug 2010, 15:09

http://www.sendspace.com/file/4t4k5d

uploaded again on sendspace . named it kabaddi kabaddi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Aug 2010, 17:27

sureshvv wrote:Yes. I promise to let it settle until cml's next tirade against this generation of musicians/performers.

Sureshvv
I have scant respect for present day artistes who are avaricious in comparison with those of my old generation who venerated CM as divine.

No this is not a parting shot but something to mull over as you start growing old.

I must thank you for opening my eyes. I realized how I have been wasting my precious little left over time on these frivolous debates instead of focussing on my spiritual emancipation (appropriate on the eve of the Independance Day!).

GOOD BYE (to you... and to the Forum)

Thimma!

Now you can pen my epitaph!
My ghost will visit and read it!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Aug 2010, 20:07

CML,
Walking out in a moment of temper or in the name of a spiritual quest--in a moment of rushing emotions, is not the way to go! You have never done it before (saying 'good bye') with a flourish. Such self indulgence doesn't become you.
We need CM Lovers on the forum, especially the one who has lived up to that name. A pity, all the good you stand for--your love for CM, your nurturing ways, your sense of fellowship which extends to the young and old alike and above all, your lack of envy and strutting ego! Hope others think a bit on these too.
Yes, of late, you have been saying a few things which were off key (for whatever reasons--new medication, low blood sugar?). As friends, we try to figure out why. As for the younger generation on the forum, if we were elders in their own famiies, how would they look upon us, treat us? Strange, you have always been the one to whom age has not mattered, only the merits in others! Reminds me of situations where some parents nurtured you, gave you all that you have in your lives being relegated to the outhouse in neglect and abuse!
I see a friend making some verbal blunders and see him robbed of his dignity and the respect he has earned all these years! If I say that it hurts me to the extent that I feel that we seniors are perhaps useless limbs of the forum and that we should pack our bags and go, is that the right thing to say or do? If anyone of you say that I'm over-reacting in the name of friendship, then I ask you--how do you react when your friends (among peers) are in a spot like this? Abandon him/her? If so, well, what CML says about today's materialistic performers may also be true of their rasikAs.
There is a solution to this. Just as you would do with your friends when they make mistakes, alert your fellow-forumite (as you would your parents or grandparents, reasoning with them). Send a note by forum mail. That's a caring gesture. Think about how emotions can flare up on line. In the rush of the moment, we tend to give expression in response to rants and abusive statements! One ignites the other and the results are not pleasant. I bet even those who felt thatof late the forum was dull without any exciting discussions and arguments are not very pleased by all that's happening now--and add some exasperating side shows too, trolls being fed and so on.
Those who question disrespectful statements cannot 'be' disrespectful. Oh yes, indian culture is proud of/boasts of
respect to elders. And we elders on the forum do treat the young and the old of the forum as equals, admire their intelligence, wit and knowledge about CM and love to learn from them.
Enough words from the old lady

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Aug 2010, 20:09

Wonder How I got entangled with this epitaph business ?
I am scared of Ghosts as it is.
What is the mantra I am supposed to use.
Sureshveeveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ?? .. Looks more eerie.

DId someone offer to write it here. I must have missed some posts.
Oh Boy ! CM may be stagnant .
But rasikas.org is effervescent

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 20:10

ragam-talam wrote: "The gent doth protest too much, methinks."
MK, you are way too late. The rasikas' union has been formed, lots of forum members are active in it, we are planning a dharna infront of sabhas, etc.
Only two things remain to be done: i) select a name for the union, and ii) choose a ragam for the 'inquilab zindabad'.
Suggestions welcome.

Here is a slogan on a placard you and your cohorts can carry:
"Till death or law enforcement takes us away"
Don't expect me to bail you out!
Name for the union:
"Renegade Rasikas"

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 20:16

mankuthimma wrote:Wonder How I got entangled with this epitaph business ?
I am scared of Ghosts as it is.
What is the mantra I am supposed to use.
Sureshveeveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ?? .. Looks more eerie.

DId someone offer to write it here. I must have missed some posts.
Oh Boy ! CM may be stagnant .
But rasikas.org is effervescent

mankuthimma:
CM is and was not stagnant ever. It is always in a state of flux but not moving far from its frame of confinement. It is like the displacement of mountains by a few inches during an earthquake. Neutral equilibrium would be an appropriate characterization. And yet it changes ever so slowly.
I offered to write the epitaph for cmlover. I even asked his email address at his destination when the time comes to reach it. Do you know whether the other world is connected to internet?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 20:32

mankuthimma wrote:http://www.sendspace.com/file/4t4k5d

uploaded again on sendspace . named it kabaddi kabaddi

This is the same video that you sent earlier, right? Just in case a new "pidi" was used I watched it carefully again. Yes, he was fighting someone and flooring that person, tearing him to pieces while not losing his breath. I was looking for blood on the floor. No luck! But let me tell you this is pure entertainment worth watching for just a few minutes.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 14 Aug 2010, 20:35

mankuthimma,

I just saw the video. Was there an audience?!!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 14 Aug 2010, 21:22

Mankuthimma,

Would it be possible to upload just the audio (of the entire raga exposition) when you have time ? This is indeed an impressive Kaunsi Kanada, even the short clip makes that clear. The swara-lagav is strong and the raga delineation is intelligent and instructive.

What are the names of the main artistes ?

I have been told that concerts of this nature ("khayal","qawwal" etc), when held at dargahs, often are quite animated. Something to do with the "sufi" tradition ? Just curious.

Where was this performance ? The phone number on the video looks like it is from our "friendly neighbor to the west"...

Thanks,
SR

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Aug 2010, 22:20

SR and others
Rashid Khan - Farid Khan
Yes it was the early stages in a Qawwal concert from a Dargah in Pakisthan.
You are correct on the animation too. People in audience start moving towards the audience and start showering notes ( currencies ) .
In a peculiar fashion .They keep one hand on top of the head of the artist and keep sliding one note after the other .
It is there in that famous Video of Nusrat Ali in the UK much before he became popular . Beautiful zooming images of ragas . Punctuated by words to the effect like : why are you scared of the night when there are so many stars looking at you Your miseries will soon vanish....
It is a totally different setting that many here may not have experienced. I have had the pleasure of sitting through these and feel my blood racing.Experienced a new angle to Man and his creator relationship. Found it very honest too and simple in its humility.
Experiences like these which ranged from qawalis to bhajans at Vittal Mandirs, to HM concerts which would start at 9 pm and end early in the morning punctuated my musical senses in my youth , before Carnatic Music brought me to serene shores.
I will pick out the audio and upload .Yes , it is a beautiful Kaunsi Kanada
It is unbelievable that a set of Qawwal singers can start a session with a rendering like this .
But this wrestling stuff ...

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Aug 2010, 22:44

I found the 'wrestling stuff' as you call it, quite fine. To be honest, I find it surprising when others say they find gesticulation distracts from the music - in my opinion, it enhances the experience.
Must be personal preferences.
Manku-ji, I would be interested in the whole video if it's available. Thanks.

To see how a famous HM singer like Bhimsen Joshi himself uses gesticulation in his music, watch this: http://youtu.be/dL1deOLUK1w

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Aug 2010, 23:04

arasi wrote:Enough words from the old lady

What she said.

And...

We don't have to like each other all the time. We don't have to have some sort of phony respect thing, whether its about age or culture or whatever, making it hang together.

All we need is a small dose of decent behaviour and a large dose of being human and realising that others are too. That means we get on each other's nerves. It means sometimes we flare up, get mad, even get downright rude sometimes It means that sometimes we may abandon decent behaviour --- and it means that we accept the same of others too. Whether we are 15, 50, 80 or 100 we are not perfect and are never going to be.

What's a successful forum? It's a place where some thread gets us at each other's throats --- and we are still in civilised discussion in others. ok, ok, we try to minimise the former, but, when it happens, it doesn't mean that the whole damned thing has to fall apart.

Stomping off is allowed too: as long as people come back.

That's the words from the middle-aged man, who would like to see this thread return to a nice healthy stagnancy. A nice peaceful stangnancy. Maybe I'll pray to St. Agnant.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 15 Aug 2010, 01:39

mankuthimma wrote:Wonder How I got entangled with this epitaph business ?
I am scared of Ghosts as it is.
What is the mantra I am supposed to use.
Sureshveeveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ?? .. Looks more eerie.

Hey... watch it... Don't drag me into this. My childish outbursts hardly make any impact!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 15 Aug 2010, 01:51

cmlover wrote:
Sureshvv
I have scant respect for present day artistes who are avaricious in comparison with those of my old generation who venerated CM as divine.

No this is not a parting shot but something to mull over as you start growing old.

CML... Wait.. Come back... I am not done!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Aug 2010, 02:57

sureshvv:
Can we put all this behind us? cmlover has left of his own volition. He is entitled to his opinion.You cannot force him to accept your viewpoint. No opinion is sacrosanct. You do not need to pull him back in order to have the final word. Yes, lots of exchanges have been made on both sides. No one can claim complete innocence. In that case it is better to let bygones be bygones and move on to other aspects.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Aug 2010, 04:55

--> There are forward moves and <-- backward modes
^^^ There are upward trends and vvv downward ones too.
nanage naguvu barututide

is a philosophical statement
Or should the icon be this ;( instead?
When smugness is hip

and anything goes
I do not feel like picking another icon--
The smiles and laughs have all lost their charm.

To quote is still hip on the forum.
"The world is too much with us..."

Just as Wordsworth meant it, this is not directed to any particular individual on the forum but the way I look upon my favorite place today. Subjective perhaps. Who knows? Though I'm not good at quoting, many of BhArati's lines come to mind--burning lines with sensitivity etched in each one of them. Yet, the way the forum is pulsating on this particular day, I don't feel like keeping company even with the great poet whose company is always a joy, a place of refuge for me. Sorry, BhArati

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Aug 2010, 06:38

Manku-ji, I would be interested in the whole video if it's available. Thanks.

Ok. Will post the video as 7 or 8 clips . May be I will start a Qawwali thread instead of this one. Will post the audio after prising it out as a single track.
And a few video clippings from the latter half of the real Qawwal portion

smala · Post by **smala** » 15 Aug 2010, 06:57

I finally got to look at the video - I am looking forward to the video clips - serially done - if you post the serial on youtube - many others would benefit too, Thimma, something to consider.

It really is a rare and lively experience, especially with those additional shots of the illuminated dargah that gives sets the ambiance - please do consider posting on youtube - Pakistani and Indian fans of NI music would love this. One way to bridge differences.

So you were in Pakistan, where and when was this - please add a description.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Aug 2010, 07:26

SP...Well You Tube :
I may never post a clip there . I am never sure of the copyright status of a siginficant % of the clips I share here .And so with my latest mode , I give a link from MY Mediafire account , owning up responsibility for any transgression with an offer to withdraw as the only remedy that I can follow up with.
Having said that , I also have a message to convey with all these uploads / posts and that is to showcase the very wide canvas of Indian Music and its sources of inspirations.
From the time being I limit myself to this forum , and my own blog at wordpress.com and the numerous archives I have helped build all over the world in a decentralised mode , for better dissemination.

This Qawwali and many others were gifted to me by a friend from the US . Some of them came as part of my exchange with the London based archives of sadarang.com. I find this art fascinating and will try to share more , as and when the opportunity arises.
Bridging Differences :
I grew up in Jamshedpur and held on to my Dear Dad and Mum for one full night , while there was a marauding mob outside during one of the riots . The house across the street saw a lone kid survive , out of an entire family . That kid had locked himself in the toilet and was found whimpering in the morning.

The effects of these experiences have been traumatic but have also been part of my evolving.One cannot describe the pain of seeing a series of houses deserted , with doors and windows ajar. I walked past these on my way to the school . But I guess I must have been an artist then itself. An artist without a mode of expression .
What I try to do here and my blog is just convey that it is still a beautiful world.
Oldtimers here, know this already.I am repeating myself for the sake of newcomers.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 15 Aug 2010, 08:56

shyama-priya wrote:It really is a rare and lively experience, especially with those additional shots of the illuminated dargah that gives sets the ambiance - please do consider posting on youtube - Pakistani and Indian fans of NI music would love this. One way to bridge differences.

Yes, I am also looking forward to the upload - thanks in advance, Mankuthimma!

There was a time when avenues such as classical music, cricket, etc represented a possibility for Bharat (BTW: Jai Hind to the Forum Members on this Independence Day 2010!) to reach out to the neighbor and make them "see the light". But after the 1980s or so our "friendly neighbor" has become completely fundamentalist including the education system - a lost cause. I believe classical music over there is in a sorry state.

SR

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Aug 2010, 09:24

http://www.mediafire.com/?hf3h0zmcgkoo02b
The Audio Link for Rashid Farid.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 15 Aug 2010, 11:28

mahakavi wrote:sureshvv:
Can we put all this behind us?
<snip>
In that case it is better to let bygones be bygones and move on to other aspects.

Just wanted to know the name(s) of the dvimadhyama ragas invented by SRK.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 15 Aug 2010, 11:42

Sangeet Rasik wrote: But on a more serious note, what a pity that the beautiful music is disfigured by this excessive flailing about and making odd faces. Reduces art to a circus!
I guess it is OK if one is sitting at home and feeling in the mood for a little gestural expansiveness. But in public it is a different story.

SR

Emphatically disagree! Total enjoyment is when you forget yourself and what better way to get there than listening/watching a live performer doing the same.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Aug 2010, 13:28

I think they got taught badly, just like the TV presenters are.

This is something I remember from drama class: if you must move your hands, do so only when it is appropriate and necessary, otherwise you are just distracting your audience's eyes, and thus their attention, from what you say.

Now do some channel surfing, and try to find a reporter whose free hand (hopefully one is immobilised by a mic) is not jumping up and down like it attached by string to a manic puppeteer! Nobody tells them. Nobody tells the musicians either.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 15 Aug 2010, 13:53

There is music theory that actually recommends that hand gestures be used as valid ingredients in the conveying of musical notes, arohanam, avarohanam, gamakam, etc etc.

See this sample video - watch how the teacher is using gestures to convey the music to his students: http://www.sam.mimemo.net/Vaitari_02_E.html
Students get a visual picture of the music, as it were - and this helps to reinforce the message.

As I have stated earlier, I find the gestures enhance the musical experience. I find it so hard to sit thru a concert where the musician is singing with a statue-like presence.

But that's just me, I guess.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Aug 2010, 14:22

Something I Learnt from Public Speaking classes at the Indo American Society ... Use both hands equally . The speaker is likely to cover the entire range of audience - left and right - with this . Otherwise he will have a tendency to look at only one half.
Kamala Hasan on one of his interviews is asked what is the most difficult thing about being an actor .
he looks at his palms and says
These two hands - they come in the way of everything. cant hide it . they mess up all my acting Mastering the use of two hands is the ultimate test

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Aug 2010, 15:47

See this sample video - watch how the teacher is using gestures to convey the music to his students

I can really see how useful it could be in the teaching situation. I'm also reminded of the TED video we saw earlier (in thread, or another?) where the speaker talks about "one-buttock playing": the body is part of the performance.

There's a scale, from the completely passive, where the performer may even sing with their eyes shut, to the [over-]active where one wonders why the guy (isn't this a male thing?) didn't go in for dance! Where "over-"active starts is going to be a variable that is different for all of us. It is uncomfortable for me if I feel it is mannerism, and approaching over-acting. If I like the singer's voice, but not his mannerisms, I can always close my eyes!

These two hands - they come in the way of everything. cant hide it . they mess up all my acting Mastering the use of two hands is the ultimate test

All of us who have ever stood on a stage in a play, or maybe, even, in front of a mic to give a short speech, have felt that self-consciousness centring itself in our hands...

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 15 Aug 2010, 16:19

ragam-talam wrote:There is music theory that actually recommends that hand gestures be used as valid ingredients in the conveying of musical notes, arohanam, avarohanam, gamakam, etc etc.

See this sample video - watch how the teacher is using gestures to convey the music to his students: http://www.sam.mimemo.net/Vaitari_02_E.html
Students get a visual picture of the music, as it were - and this helps to reinforce the message.

As I have stated earlier, I find the gestures enhance the musical experience. I find it so hard to sit thru a concert where the musician is singing with a statue-like presence.

But that's just me, I guess.

Maha Vaidhyanatha Iyer has recommended (cant lay my hands on this article) the way a singer should perform which includes postures (being erect), no / minimal limb movement, eyes closed while singing etc etc. Not many follow this though which results in excessive mannerisms, actions that one cannot tolerate, practising karate on stage (! I am not naming any artist here) etc etc.

RT if you see the way voleti sings you will be thrilled and to think singing CM is a child's play and it looks so easy and simple

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Aug 2010, 16:24

Great artists and great craftsmen often make what they do look easy!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Aug 2010, 06:58

vasanthakokilam wrote:Rasika911, thanks for the info about TMK. You are indeed Rasika411!!

Here is the link to TMK's statement: http://www.tmkrishna.com/read3.html

Probably best to keep this in another thread as it will take over this one if left here. I only used it as an example

"....I am really exited* about this December and hope to have blast."
* my emphasis

This is the last sentence in the first paragraph of the note at TMK's website. Was he excited or was he exited (by others)?

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 16 Aug 2010, 08:57

ragam-talam wrote:As I have stated earlier, I find the gestures enhance the musical experience. I find it so hard to sit thru a concert where the musician is singing with a statue-like presence.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post. I wasn't referring to a "statue-like" presence. I said that gestures and facial expressions can be music-enhancing (and also work towards building a certain "image" of the musician in the longterm) if they are true "abhinaya" and done in a cultured way - not grotesque distortions as is prevalent among many musicians today (and some of yesteryear too). You know it when you see it.

For example, "abhinaya" facial expressions in Indian drama and dance are mostly symmetric (they apply to both sides of the face equally), whereas the contortions you see in musicians' concert are asymmetric.

SR

prashanth12 · Post by **prashanth12** » 16 Aug 2010, 09:29

My favourite kind of "visual" soloists are the ones who are visibly interacting with the mridangam and violin artists throughout the piece, even just in a small way. I find seeing this interaction on stage at various stages to be pleasant and enjoyable. Whereas singers gyrating on stage with their hands feels almost cheap or egotistic to me - it's like they're trying to draw attention to themselves rather than the music.

Interesting to note this exact same debate goes on for western classical music performers, especially piano artists.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Aug 2010, 10:36

>whereas the contortions you see in musicians' concert are asymmetric.

That is the asampoorna paddhathi

Conscious training to curtail the natural instinct is needed. Female artists are probably taught that either directly or through cultural clues and innuendos. ( mEDai nAgarIham ). Smt. Vedavalli mentioned in one lec-dem that her teacher used to instruct her to not put thalam vigorously.

Personally it does not bother me that much as long as it is not excessive. I can get used to it. I do not want any artificiality creeping in, in the name of complying with such behavioral expectations. If the artist trains himself/herself so they do not have to consciously be aware of that and if it is part of their system, then that should be fine. May be they have to start that process when they are young. In either case, it is a minor thing for me. I would not consider all contortions as cheap or egoistic. If the artist's facial expression suggests that they are very proud of what they have just sung, I can see the egoism in that. Even if that is the case, so what?

Having said all that, stage presence and the natural ability to meaningfully interact with the
accompanying artists and the audience add to the overall experience of a live concert.
Some artists have that gift.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Aug 2010, 12:23

prashanth12 wrote:My favourite kind of "visual" soloists are the ones who are visibly interacting with the mridangam and violin artists throughout the piece, even just in a small way. I find seeing this interaction on stage at various stages to be pleasant and enjoyable. Whereas singers gyrating on stage with their hands feels almost cheap or egotistic to me - it's like they're trying to draw attention to themselves rather than the music.

Spot on. Perhaps it could be said as normal human beings interacting and playing music together as a team.

What I most like to see on stage is a main artist who is enjoying the performance, not only their own, but the accompanists' too.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 16 Aug 2010, 12:55

cmlover wrote:I must thank you for opening my eyes. I realized how I have been wasting my precious little left over time on these frivolous debates instead of focussing on my spiritual emancipation (appropriate on the eve of the Independance Day!).

GOOD BYE (to you... and to the Forum)

Thimma!

Now you can pen my epitaph!
My ghost will visit and read it!

Good luck on your spiritual quest.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Aug 2010, 21:45

Well, for an epitaph, you need to be interred with a headstone to mark your place. Eulogy is more like it. I am sure when the time comes for all of us, we wouldn't mind (and would like to be surprised) to hear some very nice words uttered about us! Also, Thimma didn't offer to do it. CML did not get the name right.
Don't anyone tell me we can't hear anything after we are gone. How do you know??

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Aug 2010, 22:18

Right, It was MK and not MT! ( confusion between T and K(offee) is understandable

)

One of the dreams I had a while back was something like this: There was normal two way interaction going on with people around me and then all of a sudden I can see them and talk to them but they were completely ignoring me. After trying in vein to get their attention, I realized that I am dead and then started speculating as to how this might have happened. And a palpable feeling of fright initially, then worry regarding how they are managing without me, though they seem to be carrying on fine, and then some thoughts of mischief about what will happen if I rearrange things in the room etc... That is when I woke up.. Darn it!!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Aug 2010, 22:51

>> I would not consider all contortions as cheap or egoistic<<
vk: you imply egoism (excessive regard to oneself) whereas prashanth12 means egotism (selfishness) meaning paying attention to oneself (and not interacting with accompanists)

>>Whereas singers gyrating on stage with their hands feels almost cheap or egotistic to me - it's like they're trying to draw attention to themselves rather than the music.<<
prashanth12:
I don't think they are drawing attention to themselves with all those gyrations. It is endemic to many performers and a consequence of how their training influenced it. If their guru did similar things they automatically followed (mimicked) their guru. So long as they don't close their ears with one or both hands while singing (you know what that means

) we should be able to tolerate it. As I said before, it is too late for them to control such motions. If they tried they would fail in their delivery. So if someone indulges in such chadugudu, or boxing, or spinning thread (nUl nURRal), or weaving (neydal), or washing and wiping (alambit tuDaittal), so long as their music is good let us close our eyes and open our ears only.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Aug 2010, 22:57

mk, understood. The way I keep the distinction is 'egoism ( grandoise feeling of 'I' or too much self-interest or selfishness ) and egotistic ( think or talk a lot about oneself ). Just a trick I learnt from a GRE prep book a long time back "Word power made easy". I think it is by the same authors who used to have a column in Readers' Digest.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 17 Aug 2010, 00:22

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 92#p168992

sureshvv - Frankly, I think many chose to deliberately kick the ladder instead. The obsession with "success' and "popularity" is a recent trend and previous generations were very guarded against having their life hijacked by these.

sureshvv, who talks about venal motives of present generation musicians here ?

prashanth12 · Post by **prashanth12** » 17 Aug 2010, 02:58

mahakavi wrote:I don't think they are drawing attention to themselves with all those gyrations. It is endemic to many performers and a consequence of how their training influenced it.

Perhaps...but I have seen at least one singer explicitly swagger in the programme notes about their "unique physical style" of singing, so I can't help but think it's intentional at least some of the time. I've forgotten his name, though...maybe it's an exception.

To be fair, the other extreme side (singers looking shyly at the floor throughout) is not too enjoyable either.

It's all about the perfect "middle point", I guess...