mAnji

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 Jul 2005, 04:27

Hi guys.
I was trying to figure out what sets mAnji apart from bhairavi. It appears to have been in vogue in the past. Many say that what is sung today as bhairavi is actually what was mAnji as bhairavi originally had predominantly Suddha dhaivata D1 with caturaSruti D2 being used sparingly. muDikondAn holds this view. There are of course some who say they are no different.

There is undoubtedly a difference or else the same rAga would not have had 2 different names at the same time. In fact I remember hearing a concert of muDikonDAn(?) on Bangalore AIR/FM when he rendered bhairavi with a lot more D1 in places where we sing D2. Unfortunately I did not record it then and unluckily for me and strangely for AIR :cheesy: it has not been broadcast again AFAIK.
What I would like particularly is if people could post any/all recordings of mAnji so we could savour and share our views. Also, if someone has the muDikoNAn(?) bhairavi or any other old recording with more D1, we would all be grateful to hear the same.
coolkarni, lakshman anyone can you help!
Also if lakshman can post a list of compositions in the rAga.
Of the 2 dIkShitar kRtis, I have heard "rAmacandrENa samrakShitOham" o recordings but SrI saraswatI hitE- I can vaguely recall hearing it. Any recording of that kRti available?
Of course most of us have heard bRovavamma of SyAmA SAstri and the evergreen varugalAmo.
But let me stop for a while, I will post moreas we go along. I would love to hear from others first.

davalangi · Post by **davalangi** » 19 Jul 2005, 05:06

I don't mean to sound like a broken record but Kalpagam mAmi plays both the MD krithis - beautifully may I add. Prof.SRJ sings them both too - he learnt them from mAmi 4-5 years back (a full 50 years after he was her student in kalAkShetra!!) for a lecdem he gave in Bangalore demonstrating the bhAiravi-mAnji differences.

I will post the renditions when I get a chance.

divakar · Post by **divakar** » 19 Jul 2005, 05:09

do check the lec-dem by Dr. S. Ramanathan which is available for d/l from rasikapriya website on Raga Lakshana.
He deals with rAgams which are close and much more..

mAnji-bhairavi also figures there.

http://www.rasikapriya.com/Downloads/lecdem/index.html

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 Jul 2005, 05:27

Davalangi
what is said is not like a broken record. It is as sweet as a parrot`s repetition/ kiLLai mozhi

Im eagerly awaiting you posting those renditions. My mom had told me about SRJ lecdem in B`lore but unfortunately she could`nt attend it.
Divakar
Thanks for reminding me of rasikapriya lecdem. As they say in kannaDa "cikkadu cokkadu"-short and sweet. I do wish he had said more. The elongated D1 is very typical.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 19 Jul 2005, 05:50

Compositions in Manji

Ashai neshar agum tozhare kelungal--Chapu--Gopalakrishna Bharati
Baramma mata saramma/duramargadi--Ata--Purandaradasa
Brovavamma tamasamela devi talalene birana--Chapu--Shyama Shastri
Eduraga rara yera sundararaja--Julva?--Venkatadrisvami
Enna bitta ninagalade shrinivasa--Chapu--Purandaradasa
Ennai ni arulvai--Rupaka--Vedanayakam Pillai
Harasi muda kimu halahala kalam--Adi (cempat)--Svati Tirunal
Hari bhajaneyanandamu brahmananda--Mishram--Merattur Venkatrama Shastri
Idu varaiyil--Chapu--Shivanamayogi
Kakkum vazhi unakkillaiya magizhvakkuvadum--Adi--Abraham Panditar
Kannan varuginra neram karaiyoram tenral--Eka--Uttukadu Venkatasubbier
Kantam enru--Rupaka--Mayuram Vishvanatha Shastri
Komala gatre--Adi--Virabhadrayya
Mamava jagadambike shivapriambike--Adi--Virabhadrayya
Mangalam sher sholai mamalai meviya--Rupaka--Kavi Kunjara Bharati
Manji ragapriye,,?
Manji ragatosthita--Adi--Bangalore S.Mukund
Mauni brindedya--M/Laghu--Upanishad Brahmayogin
Mohanavalli minnal unmel moham--Chapu--Kavi Kunjara Bharati
Nalai poghamal iruppeno inda nattra narambu--Chapu--Gopalakrishna Bharati
Nikhila gokula--M/Laghu--Upanishad Brahmayogin
Nilavanam polilangi netriyidai (kc)--Chapu--Uttukadu Venkatasubbier
Ninai maname ninai maname nam--Adi--Parankushadasar
Ninnu vina gati ledura--?--E.S.Shankaranarayana Iyer
Pahi ramachandra raghava--Rupaka--?
Pahi shri--Triputa--?Shyama Shastri
Pandanranai vanangiyavan bhaktimigundambi--Chapu--Nilakantha Shivan
Ramachandrena samrakshitoham sita--Rupaka--Muttusvami Dikshitar
Ramakrishna govindeti nama samprayoge (tar)--Adi--Narayana Tirtha
Shanmukha nathane--Rupaka--Kavi Kunjara Bharati
Shri sarasvati hite shive chidanande shiva sahite--Adi--Muttusvami Dikshitar
Svamin prahlada--M/Laghu--Upanishad Brahmayogin
Tillai ambalattalam onru irukkudam--Chapu--Gopalakrishna Bharati
Varugalamo ayyen undan arugil ninru--Chapu--Gopalakrishna Bharati

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 Jul 2005, 17:32

Lakshman
thanks for the list.
mOhanavalli by TNS is available is available on nadaanubhooti website. It sounds very different. Lots of tAra sthAyi phrases. I will need to listen again to comment further.
The discussion has not picked up yet. I guess it will once we have some recordings posted here.
I was hoping some recordings would have already come up by now
coolkarni- your help needed here :cheesy:

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 19 Jul 2005, 18:20

you guys dont give me much time .do you..

i

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 Jul 2005, 18:54

sorry coolkarni
no intentions of hurrying you at all. Just hurrying to know more.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 19 Jul 2005, 20:19

one alapna by tkr
Download-Link: http://rapidshare.de/files/3178235/07a- ... a.mp3.html
and one rendering by ms on air
Download-Link: http://rapidshare.de/files/3179713/Rama ... i.mp3.html

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Jul 2005, 20:38

What a lovely aalaapana? He really shows off the difference from Bhairavi in the slow movement. The other one who is an expert on Manji is KVN. Do you have a conference rendering of his varugalaamO (very well known) with his typical aalaapana.

DRS

would you highlight the points of distinction; perhaps with a timeline for novices like me!

kannan · Post by **kannan** » 19 Jul 2005, 22:02

Thank you Sri Kulkrani. Don't know where how you get these beautiful and rare recordings so quickly ..It's like magic :cheesy:

cml-ji wasn't a very beautiful KVN alapana put up here on the forum (or on XDrive while it was around)? This was part of a full concert and LGJ was on the violin. I am getting really confused about where I hear what

KVN also had swaras in there and the difference between bhairavi and maanji started becoming clearer for me once I heard that. Don't remember the kriti though. I think there are at least a few more differences than the extended dhaivata but obviously haven't figured out what they are

Also waiting for davalangi's post :cheesy:

kannan · Post by **kannan** » 19 Jul 2005, 22:15

From the Mysore KVN concert (I got it from here or rasikapriya). The kriti was brovavamma. LGJ's response is also very insightful

aalapanaa

http://rapidshare.de/files/3183004/05aManji.mp3.html

kriti & swaras

http://rapidshare.de/files/3183093/05bB ... a.mp3.html

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 Jul 2005, 22:19

sorry
am unable to download the AlApane. The link is not there and cutting ad pasting is not working. Can u repost please?

kannan · Post by **kannan** » 19 Jul 2005, 22:50

Dr Srikanth,
The link seems to work for me. Maybe there were some server problems earlier? Just in case it doesn't work her is a yousendit link
http://s5.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0YLM1 ... EBCQ22M27J

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 Jul 2005, 23:18

sorry kannan
My post was not clear because you had not posted when I posted. we posted at nearly the same time. I meant I cudnt access the 1st link that coolkarni gave. Can somebody post it again/on yousendit.

kannan · Post by **kannan** » 20 Jul 2005, 02:42

Reposting Sri Kulkarni's TKR link on yousendit

http://s6.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3QFL4 ... 7OH8U6ADCH

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Jul 2005, 03:00

Regarding KVN alapana on that mysore concert: I have heard it a while back and I distinctly remember that at that time i was so happy that i could easily tell it was mAnji. I thought he outlined it so clearly that even I wouldnt confuse it with bhairavi

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 03:54

kannan
thanks for sending the file on yousendit. I appreciate it.
Heres a rendition of brOvavamma by musiri

http://rapidshare.de/files/3190935/07_B ... i.mp3.html

And heres the link for the inimitable TNS singing mOhanavalli on nAdaanubhooti

http://home.sprynet.com/~dsivakumar/music/intromus.htm

Sorry there are not too many tArasthAyi sancAras in his rendition. They are all in middle octave only. There is a suggestion of tAra riShabha in 2 places in caraNa. Its just that he is singing it in madhyama Sruti(am I right?).

arunk, kannan and others- can you share with all what is it that you found distinct from bhairavi? Kannan may be able to throw light as an instrumentalist.

coolkarni
Is there a kRti(varugalAmO?) that follows the TKR AlApane as well? Have you found any more recordings yet? Not hurrying you though

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Jul 2005, 04:23

dr.shrikkanth,

I am not that good to give "techical" reasons but I will try - i may fall flat on my face :cheesy: Anyway, when I first heard the kvn alapana, i think it was just a "gut feeling" about mAnji. Now I heard both TKR and KVN. With TKR I must admit I cant tell as clearly and if I didnt know it was mAnji i probably would have guesssed it incorrectly as bhairavi. I hasten to add that this obviously is my limitation as opposed to the musician's!! I dont even want to suggest this but want to make sure there is no interpretation of my post in that direction

With KVN, I listened again and this is what I observe as to why I may have guessed mAnji:
1. His alapana seems to give away the krithi (brOvavamma). I see shades of different parts of pallavi (start, end, dEvi tALalEnE. Even if I didnt know what the krithi was, I think it would have reminded me of some krithi in mAnji and gravitated me towards mAnji.
2. (I am guessing here). The part of the alapana that remind me most of the krithi (and hence mAnji) is probably the elongated D1. I hope the part I am thinking is indeed D1 :cheesy:)
3. (I am once again guessing here). I think he is not emphaziing N2 too much like in bhairavi - its seems like more of a caress. I dont know if a bhairai style N2 is ok in mAnji - and maybe TKR is using it? KVN's ni is not flat but not heavy gamaka like bhairavi - again a caress.

To my perceptions (i.e.for raga identification), if the n in pdn is delivered with gamaka (or say pdnn with nn delivered with gamaka), it will almost always lead me towards bhairavi. This I think is probably the biggest source of confusion for me. Few years ago as i started listening CM, I used to confuse mukhAri with bhairavi maybe because of this (does mukhari allow such a ni?). In fact, I think even cintAmaNi sometimes is delivered with such a ni thus giving off flavors of bhairavi?

I dont know if that helps but in case (by luck) i said the right things, a mAnji if it employs (a) a deliberate elongated D1, and (b) uses "softer" gamakas for N2 may come off more distinct from bhairavi?

Arun

davalangi · Post by **davalangi** » 20 Jul 2005, 04:40

Kalpagam mAmi clearly says that the two MD krithis have an antara gAndhAram "kalappu". She also mentions that singing 'brOvavamma' in mAnji (or calling it mAnji, as she humorously puts it

is a "newer" pATAntaram.

Click on the link for mAmi's shrI saraswati hitE

davalangi · Post by **davalangi** » 20 Jul 2005, 04:45

I am sure providing the link would have helped more

http://rapidshare.de/files/3192320/shrI ... i.mp3.html

Though I don't have any lecdem of SRJ's on mAnji, I have a recording where he talks in detail about the usage of D1/D2 in bhAiravi. If anyone is interested, I can upload that.

I will upload mAmi's rAmacandrEna also shortly.

divakar · Post by **divakar** » 20 Jul 2005, 04:47

kulkarniji, thanks for TKR's mAnji AlApana and MSS-mAnji clips.

it was bhairavi all through and as he ends the alapana, the give away was the bit of 'varugalAmO' to hint that it is mAnji.

i think Musiri is the best example for making mAnji and bhairavi crystal clear.
just look into the folder "Musiri-Chowdiah-Pazhani MA 1958" u/l by rsrini in xdrive. he sings mukhAri and mAnji in this concert. and in the concert folder 'Musiri-LGJ-TS' u/l by bala there is the bhairavi - 'nI pAdamulE' in track 3.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 04:56

arunk
you have made several relevant points. elongated D1 is certainly one aspect. As for N- ur point about the soft touch is correct. Im not sure about the heavy gamaka not being used in mAnji. Technically if you elongate D1 in descent it is very difficult to give a heavy gamaka to preceding N at same time.
yes the KVN AlApane suggested the kRti but that is how it should be. Also, the available lakShya for mAnji is not vast and one has to go by kRtis only.
I agree with you on the TKR rendition. It wasnt distinctive enough. There seemed to be lot of bhairavi in it. And also some husEni. I will reserve my comments for a while as I dont want to lead people in a particular direction early on. I will also quote from R.R.Keshavamurthy`s book tomorrow.
davalangi
am eagerly searching for link that is no seen.
Could you post it again?
Im surprised by KS`s comment. Can you elaborate please? Also can you tell us what is her views on mAnji and its difference from bhairavi.
Im surprised to hear about antaragAndhAra. With due respect to her vidwat, SSP does not mention G3 anywhere nor have I heard it in renditions nor has any other reputed scholar meentioned it. varugalAmo does have G3( this appeared in TKR AlApane and hence my guess it was varugalAmO that followed). I have not heard it in any other song. Scholars say varugalAmo is possibly a folksy interpretation/ poetic(composer here) licence.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 05:04

oops. there we go again. My post crossed with 2 other posts.
Thanks divakar for link. And please do upload KS-rAmacandrENa and SRJ`s talk on D in bhairavi. It will be very relevant tothe discussion I think.
divakar
I think its the same piece by musiri that I have uploaded.
arunk
mukhAri does not have N in ascent. t goes like this
SRMPNDS allowing for PDS. No DNS (no ecxceptions here unlike YK

).
In descent of course N gamaks can be very similar to bhairavi. All of us started with getting confused between bhairavi and mukhAri. They are quite similar.

kannan · Post by **kannan** » 20 Jul 2005, 05:13

Though I don't have any lecdem of SRJ's on mAnji, I have a recording where he talks in detail about the usage of D1/D2 in bhAiravi. If anyone is interested, I can upload that.

davalangi, please do put it up whenever you get the time. I have had several questions about that.

Kalpagam mami's mAnji seems very likely to be the authentic version to me (I am sure she will be flattered by my support :cheesy: ). I think the antara gAndhAra she used in mgmp_m type usages is likely to be lost or blended into a sAdharaNa gAndhAra with time, especially while singing. Of course the antara gAndhAra occurs at other places too in her AlapanA and kRti rendition .

I do think there are a few additional phrases that occur exclusively in one or the other of bhairavi/mAnji from what I have heard. I have to listen more though....

Thanks,
Kannan

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 05:30

Just listened to the lovely saraswati hitE by KS. It was great to hear her talk at th end. She too has mentioned the flatness of notes D.N vis a vis bhairavi. And in her rendition G3 figures prominently-not as a suggestion but very distinct. It gives distinct shade of Anandabhairavi.
What surprises me to a certain extent is the absence of kShEtraJna padas in mAnji.laksman`s list does no mention it nor did I find it in a book of kShEtrajna`s compositions. mAnji is considered a dESya rakti rAga. Is it more recent than kShEtrajna`s time? I havent been able to get hold of my copy of caturdanDi prakASike. Need to see if it mentions it either in the main body or the rAgalakShaNa anubandha. SSP does not list a lakShaNa gIte of venkatamakhi. Nor does it have a lakShaNa SlOkaCould this mean that the rAga was at least not in vogue during venkatamakhi`s time?
But R.R.Keshavamurthy quotes a lakshaNa slOka

manji rAgastu sampUrNah sagrahO gIyatE sadA |

2 of the trinity have composed in the rAga as have a good number of their predecessors. So it could`nt have been a new rAga. tyAgarAja has not handled it. And to acquire the status of a rakti rAga is no mean achievement. A lot of experimentation must have gone on with the rAga before its rakti aspects were discovered.
Can anybody else throw light on a historical perspective? AFAIK
bRhaddESi and Sivatattva ratnAkara do not mention it. And which dEsa is it tougt to have originated from.
There is a mAnji in hindustAni as well. i dont know details yet. I dont think it is similar. But does someone here know more?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 05:37

. I think the antara gAndhAra she used in mgmp_m type usages is likely to be lost or blended into a sAdharaNa gAndhAra with time, especially while singing. Of course the antara gAndhAra occurs at other places too in her AlapanA and kRti rendition .

I do think there are a few additional phrases that occur exclusively in one or the other of bhairavi/mAnji from what I have heard. I have to listen more though....

I think it is more likely to that G2 will become G3. As G has a higher note M on either side, it will take a higher freguency and is hence more likely to become G3. What you have said is possible given the fact that G2 can be heavily gamaka laden but IMHO it is less likely.

davalangi · Post by **davalangi** » 20 Jul 2005, 05:39

DRS - the lakShaNa slOka you have given is there in SSP (at least the telugu version)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 05:47

thanks davalangi
I was looking at the tamil edition as I dont have my telugu copy to hand.
Just checking manjhi in hindustAni. there is a mAnjh khamAj/manjhi khamAj which of course belongs to the khamAj thAt and is an entirely differnet rAga. You can listen to it on musicindiaonline.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Jul 2005, 05:52

a very very sweet one by MLV.
http://rapidshare.de/files/3192750/mlv- ... i.mp3.html

http://rapidshare.de/files/3192942/mdr- ... i.MP3.html
(Is There a term for the technique of starting the rendering a kriti from somewhere in the middle of the opening line_Chaps like us -kansens get confused like mad ,especially with MDR, kritis like Mokshamu and others.same thing happens here)

http://rapidshare.de/files/3193194/kaly ... i.mp3.html

srikaanth.
TKr Yes, the kriti rendering is there.will upload with the final instalment along with Brinda Muktha, S ramnathan and DKJ.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 05:57

I stand corrected. lakShaNa SlOka is there in tamil edition as well. My pdf file was playing up.
Thanks coolkarni for the recordings. Am just downloading one of them. We are eagerly waiting for the other renditions. Just wondering how Brinda duo`s version will be.

kannan · Post by **kannan** » 20 Jul 2005, 06:15

I thhink it is more likely to tht G2 will become G3. As G has a higher note M on either side, it will take a higher freguency and is hence more likel to becoe G3. What you have said is possiblle given the fact that G2 can be heavily gamaka laden but IMHO it is less likely.

That is very true Dr Srikanth. In fact, there are not that many MG2MP usages in the mAnji renditions that don't use G3. Your explanation does fit better.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 06:24

(Is There a term for the technique of starting the rendering a kriti from somewhere in the middle of the opening line_Chaps like us -kansens get confused like mad ,especially with MDR, kritis like Mokshamu and others.same thing happens here).

AKAIK there is no specific term for this. You will find this style of rendition in many of kShEtraJna padas. So much so that the anupallavi is often thought as the pallavi

The reasons for musicians to chose this way of rendering could be
1) the dhAtu/rAga is more catchy/attractive in anupallavi as compared to pallavi. Starting on high notes contributes to this. Many kShEtraJna padas fall in this category
2) the meaning of mAtu/sAhitya is more clear and logical when it flows from anupallavi to pallavi. Many of the padas fall in this category as well.
3)Some choose to sing that way(to be different you see :cheesy: ). mOkShamu galadA being sung from anupallavi is a fairly new trend. But the sAhitya artha becoes a lot more clearer when you sing it this way. Also the dhAtu is very catchy in the tAra sthAyi. I first heard sudha raghunathan do it in Bangalore several years ago (not definite that she started it) but have heard several others do the same since.

Ela nIdayarAdu is traditionally sung this way.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 06:30

That is very true Dr Srikanth. In fact, there are not that many MG2MP usages in the mAnji renditions that don't use G3.

Sorry. Can you explain this statement please? Are you saying there is a lot of G3 generally in renditions of mAnji?

divakar · Post by **divakar** » 20 Jul 2005, 06:50

thanks kulkarniji for those mAnji clips

i think only MDR sings that way: starting from anupallavi or from the second or third word of the pallavi in his renditions like:

mahAnubhAvulu - SrI (endarO)
mrdanga tALamu - SrIraNjani (sogasugA)
SabarI bhAgya - mukhAri (entani nE)

it becomes even more difficult to identify the beginning of the composition when he sings his own compositions from the anupallavi.

davalangi · Post by **davalangi** » 20 Jul 2005, 07:34

Divakar - Lot of musicians start certain T krithis at the anupallavi...not just MDR!

davalangi · Post by **davalangi** » 20 Jul 2005, 08:03

Just a few examples:

- Hyd Brothers start 'mitri bhAgyamu' at the anupallvi
- Nedunuri (& others) start 'tsallare' at the anupallavi
- SRJ sings 'teliyaleru rAmA' starting at the anupallavi
- Smt.Vedavalli sang 'evarani nirNayincirira' starting at 'shivudanO' (Cleveland'05)
- Santhanam starts 'tatva meruga tarama' at the anupallavi

Most of T krithis have a beautiful 'wrap-around' from anupallavi to pallavi - making the sAhitya artham complete as DRS rightly pointed out in his post. That is probably why Musiri sings citta swaram for "endu dAginAdO" only after singing the pallavi (i.e. post anupallavi). The anupallavi leads into the pallavi - "ArItinE endu dAginAdO"

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Jul 2005, 08:10

i think divakar doesnt mean starting from anupallavi (which is not uncommon) but sort of "half-way into pallavi/anupallavi". I think MDR does that - i have heard the examples Divakar quoted. I do not know if others do it too.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Jul 2005, 08:44

drshrikkanth,

Regarding your question about historical perspective: As per Ragalakshnasangraha (by Hema Ramanathan) mAnji is mentioned by muddu venkatamakhin as sampoorna, sa as graha, sung at all times. It is described under the 20th mela and as a desiya raga.

This means that it wasnt mentioned in any of the earlier works up to Ramamatya as the book by Hema Ramanathan is a comprehensive listing from that period. I really think finding mention before that (i.e. Sarngadeva and earlier) is not of as much use as the connection would be too tenuous (IMHO).

So we know it was around at about the start of 18th century. The fact that it is 20th mela makes it natabhairavi with D1. There appears to be no mention about D2 (?). However, according to Hema Ramanathan's book, SSP says it is bhASAnga taking pancasruti dhaivata (i.e. D2 practically) in places such as "p d n s", "n d n s".

Does this mean during muddu venkatamakhin's time it employed just D1? Or is his description in this case incomplete? Without this info, when we look at mudicondan's opinion that current bhairavi with heavier mix of D2 is more like mAnji, it is still somewhat perplexing as there seems to be no textual evidence that mAnji used more D2 than bhairavi in the past even in SSP? But there perhaps was "practical evidence"

Arun

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Jul 2005, 08:51

..here is the one by brinda and muktha http://rapidshare.de/files/3195455/brin ... i.mp3.html

and one more by dkj http://rapidshare.de/files/3195661/dkj- ... S.mp3.html

the tkr lapana continues with the following track.

http://rapidshare.de/files/3195827/tkr- ... i.mp3.html

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Jul 2005, 09:01

To add to above. Many (some presumably) later texts mention mAnji ( sangrahacUDAmaNi (1750-1800), sangItasArasangrahamu (1800), mahAbharatacUDAmaNi (18th-19th century), rAalakshaNa (18th-19th century), and of course SSP (1904).

Hema Ranganathan notes that although the first four works above never mention the occurence of anya swara and are characteristically silent here, it is probably the presence of the higher dhaivata in ascent in this rAga (noted oin SSP) that disqualifies it from being taken as a representative of the 20th mELa, with its named modified suitably. Added to that in mahAbharatacUDAmaNi, both the ascent and descent are presented in devious movement.

So the guess is even without mention there must have been anya swaras and thats why it was NOT taken as the base name for mELa. I guess possible but not exactly a super strong argument. If any the case for anya swaras (i.e. D2) in mAnji seems not supported strongly in any works before SSP.

Also there seems to be no mention of G3 in any of them including SSP. Mami's version clearly uses G3 prominently (the sweetness of her vINA is always a delight to savour!). So another aspect to the mystery.

Arun

kannan · Post by **kannan** » 20 Jul 2005, 10:25

Clearly Kalpagam Mami's G3 is completely different from the G3 in varugalAmO. But somehow, her mAnji 'makes sense ' to me (unfortunately, all of knowledge consists of vague notions like 'making sense') . However, after Dr Srikanth's post , I don't know if it is the rAga or her mesmerizing playing :cheesy:

Here are a few things I noticed in other recordings . Most are pretty obvious, but I just added these for my own edification and so that any of my mistaken notions could be corrected:

1) The prayoga : RNS in mAnji (mA. from here on) which doesn't occur in bhairavI (bh.). Example : the way varugalAmO starts

Even the usage NS would sound more "mAnji-like" if the gamaka for N is from the R (instead of doing it from D2 as in viribONi)

2) The phrase 'r_gm r_gs' is used in mA. and not in bh.

3) Many phrases involving 'rgm' sounds best in mA. with a plain g2. I get the feeling that a few of this sort should be introduced to make the distinction clear (for e.g 'rgmmp____'' with a plain g and m). Additionally , wherever gamaka is used for phrases invovling g and m it is best that at least one of these be left plain. It sounds more like bh. if 'rgmpdp___' has gamakas at both g and m.

4) bh. has phrases like 'r_pmg__r' (as in 'upacAramu' by Tyagaraja Swami) which are best left in bh. Another of this sort is 'mgp_g_r'

5) Dr Srikanth and mami have pointed out the plainness of d. Dr Ramanathan has also pointed the elongation of d.

6) A few others that I am not able to articulate :cheesy:

In general, it seems to me that mAnji involves 'plainer' notes and more gentle gamakas (and consequently is best sung slowly) . Now, I hadn't heard (or heard of) mAnji till last month so obviously all of the above are my (almost certainly mistaken) impressions of what the disctinctions are . I request all of you correct these whenever you find the time.

Thanks,
Kannan

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 19:20

arunk
thanks for adding a historical perspective. Even after making allowance for muddu venkaTamakhi being more recent than venkaTamakhi, the rAga has been around for 250 to 300 years in texts. Logically it must be more ancient in practice for obvious reasons.
As for the lakShaNa SlOka, they are only terse verses and cannot incorporate the whole lakShaNa. They are only an introduction. The description bhAShAnga is conspicuous by its absence in many of the rAga SlOkas as well. e.g- kannaDa, bEgaDe, kAp etc. In fact this is more common. One must also recall here that bhAShAnga did not necessarily mean the same thing then as today. This will become clearer when a lot of todays upAnga rAgas were classified as bhAShAnga- e.g sAvEri
This is very clear if one sees the SSP.
Your point about appearance of a rAga name in ancient texts having a tenuous connection with melodic structure is valid. But one can at least know that the rAga was known in some form or other since that period. (there will be exceptions but it is only a reasonable surmise)
Texts may not have mentioned D2 for many reasons-it could be because the rAga is too well known and hence needs no introduction or it could be because tha rAga is obscure(damned if you do and damned if you dont

). Or the author may not have been too familiar with the rAga or may have omitted by oversight. This has occurred often in history esply music.
As for mAnji not being accorded the mELa status- that seems rather far-fetched IMHO. One could argue that way for a lot of other rAgas. mELas 8, 15 20, 22, 28 and 29 have a huge number of janyas and of them only one can become a mELa in each. Let me put it this way-
only a very popular and ancient rAga will be accorded mELa status. And a mELa will not have foreign notes i.e upAnga in today`s terminology. A strong indicator of a anya swara making an entry into the rAga usage/lakShya is the usurping of the mELa status by another popular rAga(which will have to be upAnga)e.g kAmbOdhi by kEdAragauLa and bhairavi by rItigauLa. One cannot make any reasonable inferences of the other janya rAgas in sofar as anyaswaras are concerned.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Jul 2005, 19:37

kannan
your have made really good points. Thanks
N having a gamaka from R rather than D is correct. N in manji is considered sharper than in bhairavi. r_gmr_gs is also a prayOga indicative of mAnji. Befor I post my observations
heres what the "karNATaka sangItada pAribhAShika viSvakOSa" (Mysore university, encyclopaedia of karnatik music) says about mAnji
rAgachAyA swaras- G, R, N
dIrgha kampita gAndhAra
in the phrase "M_PDP_DG~~", sliding from D to G and oscillating the latter in a prolonged manner is beautiful in mAnji.
It also says the rAga is bhAShAnga, dESIya, rakti rAga and is karuNA and dIna rasa pradhAna. sArvakAlika

Here is R.R. Keshavamurthy`s view in his "rAgalakShaNa mattu rAgakOSa"
Scale NSR_GMPD"NS* | S*D1PMGRS ||
he iterates that this is undoubtedly different and distinct from bhairavi and observes the following differences that N and G are higher(tIvra) than in bhairavi.
says it is bhAShAnga, dESIya and rakti rAga evoking karuNA and dIna rasa. sArvakAlika.
D2 occurs only in PDNS and NDNS. In all other places it is D1. tAra sthAyi prayOgas and ArohaNa(ascending pattern) swaras are used i a limited manner compared to other rAgas.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Jul 2005, 23:51

Some more useful info about mAnji vs bhairavi from sangeetham.com's bhairavi raga appreciation (it also mentions the use of g3 in mAnji):

Both SG2R2G2M1 as well as SR2G2M1 are acceptable as the ArOhaNa, but if the latter is taken, SGRGM could be employed as a vishEsha prayOga, whereas the reverse may not be justified. Also, nowhere in theory has this vakratva been specified as a feature of bhairavi's lakShaNa, though it is common experience that SG2R2G2M1 is frequently used in bhairavi expositions to impart the special bhairavi 'flavour', as also to differentiate it from its close ally mAnji. The other commonly accepted differentiating factors are mAnji's meandering viLamba kAla structure, a rather slower paced oscillation of gAndhAra, dIrghatva of Suddha dhaivata in the descent of mAnji and a more pronounced use of chatuSruti dhaivata, as opposed to the stress on niShAda in bhairavi where D2 is more subtle, and also the absence of jaNTa and dhATu svara phrases which abound in bhairavi. The inclusion of one more anya svara, antara gAndhAra in mAnji in a few compositions, has also been highlighted by some experts.

A silly question: How is N D2 allowed in bhairavi (and also in mAnji)? I see notations that have this. Is this yet again case of aro/avaro not telling the true picture or does the aro/avaro structure allow it (as i thought it should be n d1).

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 21 Jul 2005, 02:48

Heres what G.N.Nagmani srinath says about mAnji in her book
"SrI SyAmA SAstri kRtigaLu".
A straight scale is given and D2 is noted as the anyaswara which is part of the scale itself. She mentions dIrgha sAdhAraNa gAndhAra in this rAga as a diffeentiating factor from bhairavi. In the phrase "PDNDP" both dhaivatas are Suddha.
R & N are jIvaswaras. janTii swaras are to be avoided while singingthis rAga (this is mentioned as anothe differentiating factor from bhairavi). bhakti & karuNArasa pradhAna. Shines well in cauka kAla. madhyama kAla is not suited for rendering this rAga.

The recognition of R as a jIvaswara is notable in her views. This was what I have felt as well apart from several other things. If you observe in all the renditions we have heard, a sharp, unwavering and elongated R occurs prominently. This is not the case in bhairavi but is similar to husEni.
Also, brOvavamma, varugalAmO and rAmacandrENa all start on the steady R. SrI saraswati begins on S-the grahaswara.
Also R__ is used as a prominent nyAsa/resting note here- amma of brovavamma and mO in varugalAmo fall on R.
Another noteworthy point in her observations is that both D are Suddha in PDNDP.
I also think P & S are less prominent in mAnji than in bhairavi. And an unwavering M is also prominent in mAnji but not so much in bhairavi

davalangi · Post by **davalangi** » 21 Jul 2005, 06:40

Here is the other mAnji krithi (kalpagam mAmi's):

http://rapidshare.de/files/3204153/rAma ... a.mp3.html

The bhAiravi talk by SRJ is available at this link:

http://rapidshare.de/files/3204216/SRJ- ... i.mp3.html

(the audio has a couple of gaps! I have to ask the person who recorded it to check out the master)

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Jul 2005, 09:34

i have deleted ms rendering of ramachandrena from rapidshare.My track was recorded from an air broadcast , but i was informed that it has been released commercially as well.
thanks to ravishankar for alerting me.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Jul 2005, 21:49

Kulkarni sa'ab,
You are welcome: we all need our backs watched, so that we do not inadvertently post something commercial!
Davalangi,
Can you add an email like to your profile? I would like to ask you something that is relevant only to you.
Thanks.
Ravi

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Jul 2005, 21:50

email like

I mean email link!