IS CARNATIC MUSIC STAGNANT

[mahakavi]

......It's all about the perfect "middle point", I guess...

No disagreement there.

[sureshvv]

Frankly, I think many chose to deliberately kick the ladder instead. The obsession with "success' and "popularity" is a recent trend and previous generations were very guarded against having their life hijacked by these.

sureshvv, who talks about venal motives of present generation musicians here ?

Touche!

Just that I don't hold them to a different standard from the rest of society and I feel it is hypocritical to do that.

[sureshvv]

My favourite kind of "visual" soloists are the ones who are visibly interacting with the mridangam and violin artists throughout the piece, even just in a small way. I find seeing this interaction on stage at various stages to be pleasant and enjoyable.

This is great as long as they are always aware of the mike and don't move away from it while singing to interact with the accompanists. Microphone awareness seems to be an area which is not emphasized generally in CM.

[Nick H]

Good point.

Really, mic arrangement should be done that acknowledges that artists communicate with one another and allows for it.

It applies to the over-expressive too.

[sunaada]

Perhaps...but I have seen at least one singer explicitly swagger in the programme notes about their "unique physical style" of singing, so I can't help but think it's intentional at least some of the time. I've forgotten his name, though...maybe it's an exception.

Padmashree Dr John Marr relates a story about deliberate facial expressions. Perhaps the same can be applied to physical style (for those who haven't already seen this):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKBe2c3i_Sk

[mankuthimma]

I think facial expresions should move to a separate thread.

BTW we should remember that the first video was from a qawwali . Not sure if many of you noticed that the mikes were not visible . Having attended Qawwalis , personally I have found it difficult not to move my own body.
Has anyone watched a football match in a small town? I remember that whenever I got a place to stand near one of the corners , in the jostling crowd , as a player ran with the ball making an attacking move around the corner , the whole crowd would involuntarily bend to the side , following his motion .And the force could be quite crushing.And after the pressure of the attack was repulsed by the defender , the bending crowd would realise their movements and smile sheepishly.

[kssr]

Like pulling in your elbow protruding out of a train window, when the train suddenly enters a tunnel or passes close to a wall, although the wall may in reality be too far to be reached even by a stretched arm!! Involuntary actions. In kutcheris involuntary appreciation (sabaash) may be OK but not involuntary singing by the audience

[gobilalitha]

Brilliant comparison. what an example. audience singing together is disgusting .gobilalitha

[Nick H]

As audience member, I cannot sit still. I move head or hand somewhat quite a lot of time. I keep it within very limited bounds so as not to annoy, but find it hard not to be "moved" by the music.

[kssr]

As audience member, I cannot sit still. I move head or hand somewhat quite a lot of time. I keep it within very limited bounds so as not to annoy, but find it hard not to be "moved" by the music.

That is ALLOWED!!

[Nick H]

Thanks kssr!

[gobilalitha]

Yes ,Nick is right.. The musicians will certainly welcome such gestures if appreciation.

[Shivadasan]

The question “Is Carnatic music stagnant ?” has taken a back seat. May I place some more points regarding this question ?

CM has been evolving continuously over 200 years and the content and quality differed from period to period i.e. from generation to generation . Each person has a specific opinion that the phrase CM means the kind of music that was popular in a particular period.

The periods can be conveniently classified into 5 different stages.

1. 1770 to 1850 - For the generation that lived at the time of the Trinity it meant the sacred compositions and the traditional expositions of ragas and prabandhams that existed then. For the first disciples of Thyagaraja it was mainly the compositions of Saint Thyagaraja. The ideal CM was for them was to keep up and match with the ideals of their guru. In those days, it appears, music concerts were being held at the palaces of kings, residences, eminent citizens etc.though infrequently.

2. 1850 to 1900 – This period contained eminent musicians like Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer, Patnam Subramaniya Iyer etc. Extraordinary virtue in voice, mastery in laya and exposition of the beauty of compositions etc. were seen as developments in CM. It seems that public concerts in temples had emerged by then. Royal gatherings had excellent connoisseurs of music and Ashthana Vidwans whose opinion more or less guided the musicians on the quality of the music by their appreciation or disapproval.


3. 1900 to 1950 - The next period of evolution saw Thirukkodikkaval Krishna Iyer, Veena Dhanammal, Harikasanallur Muthaiah Bhagavathar, Nayana Pillai, Sarabha Sastrigal, Karaikudi Sambasiva Iyer, Mysore Vasudevachar , Pudukkotai Dakshinamurthy, and others. Violin had entered the concert scene and the Sawal Jawab between vocal and violin was born. Sabhas had started forming. Microphone had entered the stage. There were high quality rasikas who were consulted by the kings and Zamindars and so they were respected by musicians and that more or less controlled the quality of renderings.

4. 1950 to 1980 - The generation of Ariayakkudi, Semmangudi, Chembai, Musiri, Madurai Mani, TNK, Lalgudi, Palghat Mani, Pazani etc dominated the scene . The Ariyakkudi pattern rendering a large number of krithis of short duration was born and the Swal jawab for vocal, violin and Mridangam also came up. Presentation of intricate laya patterns became a regular practice. Hindustani Music began to be appreciated and imitated. Public approbation through clappings in the audience started controlling the quality.


5. 1980 to 2010 The present day musicians and the music they present.


What is evolution and what is decay in CM, each person would have his own view based on which period’s music they regard as the most pure. Similarly whether CM contributes to Divinity in the singer or the listener is a matter where there can be no consensus.

There would also be no agreement on issues like whether the purpose of CM is to elevate or entertain the listeners, whether it should cater to the knowledgeable or the laymen, whether it should be sung to popularize CM among foreign audience etc.

Because of these divergent views clashes occur among our forumites which sometimes borders along the nasty. It is high time that we realize that in a forum we should agree to disagree. We should stop with letting the others know about our point of view without trying to criticize others, and, watch the discussion. We are not here to convert others to our view point. If we are unable to persuade the others to our view point it is definitely our disability and there is no point in using harsh words against those that disagree . If our viewpoint is correct time will tell.


We are having bitter arguments in finding out whether CM is stagnant or not . The word ‘Stagnant’ means no movement or maintaining status quo. If it is not stagnant then it is moving. It may be either ‘forward’ or ‘ backward’ from its goal.


But the goal of CM has not been defined and accepted by all sections of people. Spiritually inclined people look to the definition by Saints. Socially inclined try to look at the economics of CM because it has become a money spinning profession and a change in the course of CM might affect a lot of persons in the profession. If the problems are stated clearly as pertaining to the spiritual goals or social goals there might be less of confusion and conflict.

The course that CM would take in the future is beyond our control and we can only wait, watch and see. We can express our satisfaction, dissatisfaction through our forum. CM is not going to alter its course just by our arguing and counter arguing with bitterness. Discussions in our forum might have some effect on the profession but it may be salutary. Best we can do is to express our opinion and do not expect others to uphold it. The opinions of others may sometimes open our eyes to our own idiosyncrasy. By using a language which is not graceful but malicious or sarcastic we only harm the atmosphere of the forum thus reducing participation.

[Babu]

Thanks Sri. Shivadsan for the reminder and for the detailed analysis in a chronological order. Your post is a fitting closure statement for this thread. Regards

Ganesan

[Nick H]

"closure" and "thread"

... incompatible I think

[mahakavi]

The thread threads and keeps threading on. Nor all thy piety can prod it to stop more posts; nor all thy tears can wash a further post on the thread.

with apologies to Omar Khayyam