Learning Sa for six months !

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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uday_shankar
Posts: 1475
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by uday_shankar »

vasanthakokilam wrote:If the word illusion is not the correct word, we can use another word.
How about "complimentarity" ? :)

I haven't listened to SK's lecdem above yet, but I know the extremely simple idiot's way for a performer to do shrutibhedams of any degree of complexity, and I have no doubt that's how they all do it and fool the public that they are doing something profound. Everyone can do it. Here's how:

1. Choose some rAga.
2. Determine a priori the grahabhedams you're going to do with it. This is extremely important to understand. Nothing happens "on the fly"! Say for simplicity we'll sing Todi, go into Kalyani and come back.
3. Now sing Todi for a while, get immersed in the rAga
4. Bring the Todi to a dramatic peak at the mel Ri, giving that swaram a nice kaarvai. Have a clear perception of that swaram.
5. Now clearly think of that Ri as your Sa and filtering out any awareness of the tambura and abandoning any notion of Todi, launch into a Kalyani using sancharas that emphasize full-scale movement such as SNDPMGR.
6. Keep thing going for a while and then reverse the process, i.e., stop at the Ri and bring back the original Sa dramatically.

Except in the simple cases like Mohanam-Hindolam there's no awareness in the performer's head of the "parent" rAga when the child Raga is being sung. So the shrutibhedam is the only thing happening, not grahabhedam. The "graha" part of the grahabhedam is determined analytically prior to the peformance.

gita
Posts: 23
Joined: 08 Oct 2007, 20:45

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by gita »

Here's a link for the raga 'abhogi'. It is so possible to hear a 'valaj' instead of abhogi. Illusion ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qES_YqhXrPU

uday_shankar
Posts: 1475
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by uday_shankar »

Good example gita.

Vasanthakolilam is absolutey right. This is indeed an auditory illusion of type 2, I stand corrected for digressions.

As vk pointed out a few posts earlier, it is very similar to the MC Escher foreground background illustration.

OK, vk...I'm a convert.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by cmlover »

mankuthimma wrote:
I started off by hearing some great music in Muslim Strongholds in the evenings , before dashing off to Vittal Mandirs for late night bhajans.
Scenes were something similar to this

http://www.mediafire.com/?jbnhebifs39vwv9

Please also read ...http://www.submission.org/music.html
Yes Thimma there are as many enlightened Muslims who love music as many Hindus as there are who hate music.
But there are no religious edicts in Hinduism condemning music as there are in Islam explicitly.
http://lastisland.wordpress.com/2007/09 ... -in-islam/

I agree the finest contribution to HM has come from Muslims (under the moghuls (aurangazeeb excepted)) and in the Indian sub continent they are its custodians!

Is that video from India or Pakistan?

mankuthimma
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Joined: 11 Jul 2010, 13:38

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by mankuthimma »

Pakisthan

hariniraghavan
Posts: 170
Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 20:48

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by hariniraghavan »

Much debate went on in this forum about learning 'Sa' for 6 mo nths and related topics. I wonder if anyone listened to a jugalbhandi program in podigai today morning. Two great artists were singing - Dr. M.Balamuralikrishna and Ajoy Chakravarthy sir. I missed out most of it and switched on the TV only towards the end when they were singing Abhogi. all was well until they came to the swara prasthara. While BMK's rendering was neat, one had to wonder whether AC really was grounded for 6 months for each swara. As he traversed between SRGMD-SDMGR in different patterns, not once were the swaras RGMD in their perfect places. I very well know that in HM there is no prominence for singing swaras, but still if they were compelled to practice each swara for a long period until they attained 'PERFECTION', would a stalwart struggle to pass through a simple swara pattern as if he was frantically in search of the swara sthanas? This seldom happens to a CM artist. May be there will be a few lapses here and there to a not well groomed artist, who is still a beginner.
Harini.

Nick H
Posts: 9473
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by Nick H »

Isn't Ajoy Chakravarthy a student of BMK? If I'm right, then he is hardly unfamiliar with carnatic music presentation. A brain cell tells me that these two have been seen on stage together regularly, too.

hariniraghavan
Posts: 170
Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 20:48

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by hariniraghavan »

I am not sure whose student he is, but as you said he has been on stage with BMK several times and also with Sri TNS.
Harini.

Nick H
Posts: 9473
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by Nick H »

I mean, with regard to CM. I think that, in HM, he is pretty senior himself, isn't he?

It's been a long time, but I seem to remember having been pretty impressed at his concerts.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>I very well know that in HM there is no prominence for singing swaras,

Harini, every HM concert I heard, there is very elaborate swara singing.

>as he traversed between SRGMD-SDMGR in different patterns, not once were the swaras RGMD in their perfect places.

That is indeed very surprising.

( may be he switched to valaji..:) just kidding )

venkatpv
Posts: 373
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:23

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by venkatpv »

As he traversed between SRGMD-SDMGR in different patterns, not once were the swaras RGMD in their perfect places.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9753ErCJ ... re=related

listen to the first few minutes of this video...

ragam-talam
Posts: 1896
Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by ragam-talam »

venkatpv - thanks for the link to the SRJ video! Haven't watched these for a while.
He is truly a living legend.

mankuthimma
Posts: 912
Joined: 11 Jul 2010, 13:38

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by mankuthimma »

He is training under BMK.He announced that at Krishna Gana Sabha a few years ago.But that is more like working with him to appreciate CM , rather trying to sing a CM concert.I can play his version of BMKs thillana on that day , if you like.
In my humble opinion , no one will come near Sakunthala Narasimhan , in singing both styles , with all the finesse the respective modes demand.
What goes on the stage today for a vocal jugalbandi is a joke.

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

cmlover wrote:Yes Thimma there are as many enlightened Muslims who love music as many Hindus as there are who hate music......I agree the finest contribution to HM has come from Muslims (under the moghuls (aurangazeeb excepted)) and in the Indian sub continent they are its custodians!
I agree with your first statement (enlightened people of other religion who love indian classical music) but would not go as far as the second (finest contribution, etc). The moghuls (mongols) were essentially barbarians from central asia. They became civilized in India, not the other way round. Most of the "non-Hindus" contributing to classical music in the 1600s-1800s north india were either direct converts or descendents of converts who followed the Hindu ethos under a different name and different religion. Probably they did not have any option but to convert in those tumultous times.

Even so, the greatest "life-sustaining" contributions have arguably always come from the bedrock of Hindu musicians, composers, and scholars - whether it is Tansen or Venkatamakhi or Dikshitar or Paluskar or Bhatkhande. There is no difference between HM and CM in this respect. The foundation of Vedic and Dharmic culture is what makes the difference between those who created bharatiya shastriya sangeet, and those who follow and develop it. Sometimes famous Hindu musicians have had non-Hindu gurus, but that is only a matter of transmission of Dharmic knowledge by a "surrogate". It is rightfully the Hindu heritage but nevertheless can be shared with others. Unfortunately the leftist liberal types in Bharat are ready to "sell out" instead of "enlightened sharing".

SR

hariniraghavan
Posts: 170
Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 20:48

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by hariniraghavan »

venkatpv, thanks for the link. That explains where our HM artists stand whe it comes to swarasthanas :!:
Harini.

Shivadasan
Posts: 251
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by Shivadasan »

Yesterday’s Pudupunal in DD Podigai showed Nivedita Narayanan being interviewed and it was interesting to watch her explaining how, when she took guidance from Sashi Kiran after reaching the concert stage he advised her to modify her voice projection and start again with simple songs. This reminded me of Pushkar Lele who took 6 months to learn Sa.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by Nick H »

Yesterday’s Pudupunal in DD Podigai showed Nivedita Narayanan...
(My wife just called me to see "one of your friends is on the television." Nivedita Narayanan was singing, and the mridangist was our Ram)

nivedita
Posts: 302
Joined: 14 May 2006, 23:07

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by nivedita »

I recently managed to get a recording of this episode. I've uploaded it in five parts.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL3j9AnkEgE

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6He-8C56pw

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_vqzNVYN-U

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmKD6l8Qax8

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uv3guTMGg4

A little background about this episode is here: http://nivedita.wordpress.com/

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Learning Sa for six months !

Post by rshankar »

Nivedita - sorry for the digression. I was ROFL reading your post on the similarities between you and Mrs. YGP. Your humorous words describe the pain and embarassment that several of the kids from middle-class families have faced, and continue to face even today very well!

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