traditional instruments

cookmex · Post by **cookmex** » 26 Aug 2010, 07:15

Dear members,
What are the traditional instruments in Carnatic music and the instruments you think do not have to be performed in Carnatic music, since many instrumentalists are adding new ones to the Carnatic palette.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 26 Aug 2010, 07:39

Traditional melodic instruments are veena, gottuvadhyam, nadhaswaram and venu (bamboo flute). The violin is the most popular Western instrument to be adopted into the Carnatic music fold.

Traditional melodic instruments are mrudangam, ghatam and ganjira.

cookmex · Post by **cookmex** » 26 Aug 2010, 07:47

Thanks. Since you mention nadhaswaram, may thavil be added?

smala · Post by **smala** » 26 Aug 2010, 10:53

There is a mardala(m) - native percussion instrument, still used by musicians who play for Odissi performances. I wonder if this was ever used in Carnatic music. This was the precursor to mridanga(m) or pakhwaj as we see today.

..."Though Mridangam used in Carnatic school and Pakuaj of the Hindustani school bear striking resemblance to Odissi Mardal, still the later could be distinguished from the former ones by it's size, shape, and mode of playing. Pakuaj and Mridangam need a paste of cornflour on their left vellum during the playing. Mardal has fixed circular patch glued on its left vellum which gives a variation in resonance. The Bols of Mardal are also different from that of the former duo. The glossary of terms, like Khandi, Gadi, Arasa, Mana, Bhaunri Mana, Chhakka Mana, are the striking features which singularily of it's own. Chati and the movements of fingers are also different."

"No longer an accompanying instrument only, Odissi Mardal as a solo instrument has come to stay and it's recital will continue to be feast for generations to come."

Here is the history...
http://www.mardala.com/history/?sId=643 ... 3083f2dfa1

Mohan has missed the morsing in his traditional list.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 26 Aug 2010, 14:31

nAdaswaram is played with ottu (droning nAdaswaram), taviL and jAlrA.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 26 Aug 2010, 14:42

Traditional musical instruments used in Bharatnatyam music are: vInA, vENu (flute), tampUrA, mridangam, manjirA (jAlrA) and kanjirA. (Violin is a later addition.)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Aug 2010, 15:45

Sri P-B: By jAlarA (I typically associate those with bhajans) do you mean the naTTuvanAr's cymbals? If so, I think the two are distinct, especially in the metals used (I think) - the ones I checked out were of distinctly different weights.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 26 Aug 2010, 16:40

jAlrA and manjirA are the common names for the cymbals used in bhajans, in nattuvangam for bharatnatyam or by the nAdasvaram troupe.
They may differ in form, size or metal used.
In nAdasvaram troupe, the jAlrA is usually handled by a boy (learning nAdaswaram/taviL). He is called 'jAlrA paiyan'.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 26 Aug 2010, 17:09

It was fun searching for these:-

jAlrA in nattuvAngam: http://www.ahalya.us/Pages/images/nattuvangam1.jpg

jAlrA (manjirA) in North Indian bhajans: http://www.beatofindia.com/artist_photo ... jira-5.htm

jAlra in South Indian bhajanai troupe with Sri Papanasam Sivan (second from left): http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit1015200 ... ajanai.jpg

jAlrA in nAdaswaram: http://lh4.ggpht.com/_sA63B_vGUgo/SlVTc ... C_0006.JPG

smala · Post by **smala** » 26 Aug 2010, 23:30

To add to Sri. P. Bala's note, one has to enter an Iskcon temple to find a wide range of cymbals -- commonly (perhaps, mistakenly) referred to as "kartals" -- large ones (8-10" dia) as used in Durga puja that make an atrocious ear-defying clang, mid-size ones that twang, small size like the ones used by nattuvanars, bhajana bhagavathars, nautankis, kirtanias, that tinkle....

******

.."Kartal are a pair of wooden blocks or frames with small metal jingles mounted in them. They are simply beaten together to provide a rhythmic support to bhajans, kirtan, folk and other light music. The term kartal is also applied to wooden claves.

In Manipur (Northeast India) the term "kartal" is used for a large set of manjira. This is a very different instrument and should not be confused with the more common Kartal.

See this variation here..... http://chandrakantha.com/articles/india ... artal.html

******

The lighter, commonly seen brass variety here, range of diff. dia. even in the small.
....http://store.naturalnirvana.com/kahcy.html

The heavier, better sounding, bell metal variety, even smaller than the brass ones (due to their weight, perhaps, and for ease of hand use).....
http://krishnastore.com/bell-metal-kart ... -1101.html

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Aug 2010, 00:56

Sri P. Bala, would you know anything on the antiquated use of mardala(m) in the far south?

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 27 Aug 2010, 04:19

What are the traditional instruments in Carnatic music and the instruments you think do not have to be performed in Carnatic music

violin and mridangam..

replace them by nadaswaram and thavil.

thanks

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 27 Aug 2010, 05:42

carnaticlaw wrote:violin and mridangam..

replace them by nadaswaram and thavil.

Would nadaswaram, a sushir instrument, be an ideal replacement for Violin, a string instrument?

As for mridangam, though it is described as having mridu (clay) angam (body), 'mridamga' also means 'going about while being beaten' -- a tala instrument used in processions. Whereas mridangam has become a stage instrument, tavil continues to be used in processions.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 27 Aug 2010, 06:37

shyama-priya wrote:Sri P. Bala, would you know anything on the antiquated use of mardala(m) in the far south?

In one of the poems by Sri AnDAL, one of the vaishNava AlwArs, there is a mention of 'mattaLam' in marriage function. May be there are references to this in other bhakti literature of Tamil, tEvAram, tiruvAcakam, etc.

Mathalam is still in use in folk art in Kerala.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 27 Aug 2010, 06:45

p_b,

whats a shushir instrument? Lets get into technicalities down to the level of how sound waves propagate. that's where uday_shankar would want to throw around his intellectual weight.

After that people would agree music is beyond science (just because they cannot understand science but love music).

<edited>

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 27 Aug 2010, 07:01

CL:
Have I offended? I apologize.

cookmex · Post by **cookmex** » 27 Aug 2010, 08:06

May kasht tarang be suitable for carnatic music?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 27 Aug 2010, 08:09

Why not? It depends on how you can use it? It can produce sounds that a santoor can make, I guess. When ceramic cups filled with water can be used to produce carnatic music, anything is possible in the hands of the expert.

prashanth12 · Post by **prashanth12** » 27 Aug 2010, 10:26

I am a mridangam player, so take any comments about melody with a grain of salt, but I don't think any instrument that only produces fixed tone intervals (like a piano, xylophone, or etc) can be fully accepted as a instrument to produce Carnatic music (or Indian music in general, really)...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Aug 2010, 14:20

carnaticlaw wrote:violin and mridangam..

replace them by nadaswaram and thavil.

No need... just listen to the mridangists who play play their instrument as if it is a thavil, with no nadam, no proper chapu, dhin --- a complete waste of the instrument!

cookmex · Post by **cookmex** » 27 Aug 2010, 21:06

prashanth12 wrote:I am a mridangam player, so take any comments about melody with a grain of salt, but I don't think any instrument that only produces fixed tone intervals (like a piano, xylophone, or etc) can be fully accepted as a instrument to produce Carnatic music (or Indian music in general, really)...

?
The piano is western, the kasht tarang was an indian xylophone...

prashanth12 · Post by **prashanth12** » 28 Aug 2010, 02:03

Yes, I know.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 28 Aug 2010, 02:15

nadaswaram and thavil

Nick, if not anyone, cml knows exactly why I mentioned these instruments

no more on this

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 28 Aug 2010, 03:21

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: In one of the poems by Sri AnDAL, one of the vaishNava AlwArs, there is a mention of 'mattaLam' in marriage function. May be there are references to this in other bhakti literature of Tamil, tEvAram, tiruvAcakam, etc.
Mathalam is still in use in folk art in Kerala.

PB:
As you stated maddaLam (that is how it is known in Kerala, I think) is not an antiquated (in the sense of ---"no longer used") instrument but very much in use currently especially in KathakaLi performances.

The song you refer to in ANDAL's nAcciyAr tirumozhi is
"mattaLam koTTa varisangam ninRUda
muttuDait tAma nirai tAzhnda pandaRkIzh
maittunan nambi madusUdan vandennaik
kaittalam paRRa kanAkkaNDEn tOzhi nAn"

in the VAraNamAyiram decad. That verse will ring in my ears forever for its yearning in ANDAL's young heart, and expression of confidence, hope, and majesticity.

smala · Post by **smala** » 28 Aug 2010, 03:39

Madhalam/maddalam made of jackfruit wood, part of the panchavadya percussion instuments, is still used in Chendai-kottu/kELi - in Kerala - but this is more a traditional temple "folk" use.

Some beautiful pics followed by a wiki link as well.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clie ... =&gs_rfai=

My post # 4 and later, a repeat, asked about its antiquated use in **Carnatic music**
Still wondering if this was ever used in CM, prior to the mridanga ?

smala · Post by **smala** » 28 Aug 2010, 04:38

Great site here on percussion.......http://www.nscottrobinson.com/southindiaperc.php

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Aug 2010, 11:49

Yes... that is a great site. You will find a gem of a picture there. Well, many I suppose --- but the one I am thinking of is of UKS as a child.

re maddalam (I think they call it sudha maddalam, but I may be utterly mangling the word) Is kathakali not considered a "classical", rather than a "folk" dance?

The drum that you speak about in your post #4 is different, as you will have seen from the pictures

smala · Post by **smala** » 28 Aug 2010, 13:20

...The drum that you speak about in your post #4 is different, as you will have seen from the pictures...

Precisely. I've already said that maddalam was the precursor to the mridangam, knowing it is different. So this is getting nowhere.

I'm still on the wait to know if it ever used in CM/BN - while it continues to be used in kathakali/kerala and odissi/Orissa.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Aug 2010, 13:55

shyama-priya wrote:Precisely. I've already said that maddalam was the precursor to the mridangam, knowing it is different. So this is getting nowhere.

It's clearing up my misunderstanding of what you said

I am curious to know why the maddalam might be thought a precursor to the the mridangam? Are you sure it is older? And, if so, how one mutated into the other?

I guess no-one ever bothered to record the history of these things. The whole concept of the multi-layer drum head, found in various forms in different parts of India, is mysterious. It is a complex piece of engineering: can anyone trace the evolution?

There are always stories, like mridangam or pakawaj being sliced in two by a crazy maharaja, and, voila! Tabla! --- but I don't feel these are likely to be anything more than imagination.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 28 Aug 2010, 17:39

Could someone explain the difference between maddaLa(m) and s'uddha maddaLa(m)?

There are references to the these in MD kritis on s'iva and dEvI, e.g.
ati s'uddha maddaLa vAdya priyam in chandras'Ekharam sadAbhajE'ham
bhErI maddaLa vINA vAdanAnuraktE in sadAs'rayE abhayAmbikE sannidhEhi

prashanth12 · Post by **prashanth12** » 28 Aug 2010, 21:29

Nick H wrote:I guess no-one ever bothered to record the history of these things.

The story of Indian history, right there

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Aug 2010, 23:32

Oh yes... mythology may be more fun, and even, sometimes, more enlightening --- but sometimes the facts come in useful too.

What gets me about the multi-skin drum head, is that we should have examples showing its development, but give or take a few things like whether the left or right is permanently weighted (left is, for maddalam, and the black covers most of the exposed skin) or what and how much is used as a paste, or how thick the external layer is, we seem to have ...just finished articles. Temple carvings, I don't think, have "high enough resolution" to tell us the historical details of our drums.

smala · Post by **smala** » 29 Aug 2010, 06:02

Here is a classical dance (a pure devotional, male-performers only, Vaishnava tradition, Assam) with the large dia traditional cymbals with their deafening sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcRQs7uy1U4

smala · Post by **smala** » 29 Aug 2010, 11:35

Kerala, which uses an older form of Tamil in Malyalam also has a large number of native musical instruments still being used in various ways.

ARAMANI

CHEENAM

ARAVANA

NANTHUNY
HANDRAVALAYAM

KAALAM

BHERI

PULLAVAN KUDAM
CHENGALA

KOMBU

CHENDA

PULLAVAN VEENA
ELATHALAM

KURUM KUZHAL

CHETTIVADYAM

TAMBORU
THALARA

KUZHAL

DAKKA

VEENA
KAIMANI

NAGARWAARAM

DAVIL

KINNAM

OTAKKUZHIL

DOLU

PERCUSSION
KOOL

PEEPI

EDAKKA

KUZHITHALAM

SANKHU

KADUMTHUTI

NAGAARI
PIRIYANKOOLU

MADDALAM

NAGAARAM
PONTHI

PERCUSSION

MATTAALAM

PARA
VILLU

MRINDANGAM

SUDDAMADDALAM

TOPPI MADDALAM

MIZHAVU

TAMMITTAN

TIMILA

URUMI

THAPPATTA

TUDI

TAPPU

UDUKKU

TAKIL

MURASU
......

FOR PICS of these instruments, check here :
http://www.kalakeralam.com/music/instrumentsphoto.htm

smala · Post by **smala** » 30 Aug 2010, 22:15

Here's a rare pic of the Panca Mukha Vadyam - our very own unique Bongo-type drum.

http://www.kamat.com/indica/music/s243.htm

(A very good, useful site to browse for pics, neat terse write-ups on a variety of musicians, and other rare artifacts of interest to the author(s) )

prashanth12 · Post by **prashanth12** » 31 Aug 2010, 00:17

Nick H wrote:Oh yes... mythology may be more fun, and even, sometimes, more enlightening --- but sometimes the facts come in useful too.

Indeed.....and to continue your thread...the evolution of mridangam-esque drums is quite interesting, I agree. Most drums around the world seem to usually be simpler, "strike a uniform surface" type of constructions. Even more complicated ones like the Western contemporary drumset essentially just amount to placing a bunch of different surfaces close to each other, whereas the mridangam/tabla achieves as much stroke/sound variety and rhythmic complexity with far less real estate.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Aug 2010, 00:44

In fact, it achieves something very much more fundamental than that! The weighting of the heads causes them to vibrate in an ordered fashion, making them accurately tunable. Our physicists can say more on this than I possibly can, but it is a huge difference.

It is not necessary that the inventors/developers knew what they were doing. It was not known how a sailing ship could sail at closer than 90 degrees to the wind --- which they did, for hundreds of years --- until aircraft scientists worked it out, and even they, until recently, thought that the bumble bee could not fly. Whether they know the maths or not, it was still a remarkable idea, and remarkable to achieve in practice.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 31 Aug 2010, 17:14

The maddhalam (or mardala in Sanskrit) seems to have been the ancestor of the mridangam, although both the names were probably used interchangeably for a long time.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Aug 2010, 17:48

I don't think we can go by names, because, for instance, India has several mridangams, but they are not the same.

The "mardala" referred to previously in this thread is neither mridangam nor maddalam

prashanth12 · Post by **prashanth12** » 01 Sep 2010, 11:16

the maddhalam certainly seems to physically resemble a mridangam based on the one picture I saw, but technique and sound wise it reminds me more of a thavil.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Sep 2010, 12:25

Look closer! It is roughly the same shape (along with many other double-ended drums). It is massive in construction and weight, and the heads are quite different.

smala · Post by **smala** » 01 Sep 2010, 12:25

Nick H wrote:I don't think we can go by names, because, for instance, India has several mridangams, but they are not the same.

The "mardala" referred to previously in this thread is neither mridangam nor maddalam

Nick, the mardala is the maddalam - mardala is how the Oriyas/Orissans call it, true to the Sanskrit term (as stated by skris earlier). Jyoti Kala Mandir Odissi concerts in the bay area use them when they have visiting players.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Sep 2010, 13:30

The mardala (This is the site you link to in post #4) is very different to the Kerala suddha madalam of kathakali, etc.

I have one in my collection, but it is in storage, not easy to get to, and, as I have mentioned, very heavy! At some point I'll try to post some photos of details.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 22 Oct 2010, 14:51

Interesting video clip on percussion instruments of Kerala: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTzrCl-eGvw

cookmex · Post by **cookmex** » 09 Aug 2011, 10:42

I appreciate the timbre of the ilathalam, it would project variations in tani avartanam

advaitin · Post by **advaitin** » 10 Aug 2011, 13:40

Hi Nick

Would this clip not be an interesting display of misram?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_1VF5rF6zs

cookmex · Post by **cookmex** » 14 Aug 2011, 06:57

mandolins and thavil:

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Aug 2011, 10:23

advaitin wrote:Hi Nick
Would this clip not be an interesting display of misram?

I don't know. I enjoy this Kerala music, but it completely defeats my brain to count or understand it!

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 15 Aug 2011, 11:39

Besides Kerala, the shuddha maddalam is also used in the utsavas of the Tiruvarur Thyagaraja temple. This is mentioned by Dikshitar in one of his kritis. The panchamukha vAdyam, the pic of which was given a link to here, is a traditional instrument in daily use during the sAyarakSha puja at Lord Thyagaraja's shrine at Tiruvarur. Both these instruments were played by Shuddamaddalam Tambiyappan, a senior disciple of Dikshitar and the tradtiion is continued by his descendants.

BTW, the correct name is nAgaswaram not nAdaswaram.

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 16 Aug 2011, 09:36

Sanskrit works also mention percussion instruments like: paNava, Anaka, dundubhi, DinDima, Dhakka (I don't have specific info on each but have seen in compositions)...