Ragapravaham... Shri Ganesh and Shri Kumaresh, New approach

Shyamala Rangarajan · Post by **Shyamala Rangarajan** » 02 Oct 2010, 14:09

There was an unique violin concert by Shri Ganesh and Shri Kumaresh, this morning (at 9 AM) in Podhigai and other Regional channels. The first half of the concert was called Ragapravaham. The two Ragas taken up were Mayamalavagowla and Dharmavathi. The uniqueness of Ragapravaham is that there is no lyrics for the items only melody and tala. It was a wonderfully new approach to our classical system. Perhaps this approach is more suited to the instrumenal rendition. So it is Carnatic Music sans language !!

The second half of the concert was on the conventional pattern. The two items rendered were in Mohanam (Kapali...) and Sindhubairavi (a Purandaradasar Kriti).

I want to hear the views of the knowledgeable members of our group on this new approach.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 02 Oct 2010, 20:10

I do not know why these two brothers try all these tricks. In Margazhi Maha Utsavam (Jaya TV?), year after year they were giving one or the other of their so called innovations. Full programme based on "sruti bedham" from one ragam to another- slipping, falling, getting up in between apaswarams and again another year, on this stuff about ragam without sahityam, etc.,

Such a talented and trained C Musicians should first of all be in a position to appreciate the merits of the standard Kutcheri format. Let there be no mistake. This is the most enjoyable CM format. Why do they want to degrade themselves and their music by these circus tricks.

When I look at them on stage giving these performances, there is no arrogance as in the case of some others. There is innocence. I only wish that they understand that their value will go up trememdously if they stick to fully traditional CM. I feel more like sympathising with them than complain.

I sincerely wish them wisdom and a great future.

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 02 Oct 2010, 22:26

I liked the Dharmavathi piece - certainly off the beaten track; seems to suit the instrumental style.
Firstly, the violin duet by the brothers is full of melody, clean violin bowing ...
The laya fireworks for Mohanam by Kumaresh was gripping.

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 03 Oct 2010, 06:54

Patri Satish Kumar accompaniment on the mrudangam was excellent. The subdued response to the duo's opening phrases of dharmavathi was captivating. The kanjira accompaniment was also good. (Sorry, I could not get his name though)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Oct 2010, 21:01

kssr, you may be a bit too harsh on the duo, fully acknowledging that we all have our own preferences. There is no direct connection between not following the standard kutcheri format and "degrading themselves and the music".

Their efforts in Margazhi Maha Utsavam was not that appealing to me, though I look at those who go off the beaten track with a lot of admiration and respect. There are enough players in the usual format, so them not going there is not going to make a difference. I would not want to beat up on those who stray just for straying.

Specifically about this show, in what way not having lyrics exhibited itself in the music? Even when someone plays a krithi which we do not know the lyrics, you still can feel it is a song when played on an instrument. Did it have that kind of a feel, or an RTP type feel or is it like a sequence of 'movements' with no discernible song structure?

Krazy4music · Post by **Krazy4music** » 03 Oct 2010, 23:23

I am a very big fan of the duo. Have been following their music for quite some time.

The idea behind Ragapravaham is to compose pieces that can specifically bring out the beauty of the violin ( bit like a Violin sonata in Western Classical music). I love how they keep on innovating and pushing the barriers of carnatic music. The Ragas are very carnatic, the talam is carnatic, the gamakam is carnatic...its just the package that is changing. AND HOW!!!

In the clip below, listen to how they make Janaranjani sound totally fresh by introducing chords... playing thirds etc...look how one violin is playing pizzicato at some places...at some places it plays tremelo...At some places you have counterpoint...Wonderful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxl1QTWZMQ0

I would recommend anyone to buy their album carnatic chills. Request everyone to also listen to the song Indian Concerto based on Karaharapriya Ragam in this CD.

Their is one kind of innovation...a bit frivilous; let us add a guitar lead to a pancharatna kriti and see what happens etc.It is almost what we call jamming.

There is another kind of innovation which is very well thought out...and I think Ganesh kumaresh are very much in the second category.

Even the shadjam concept..as anyone who plays the violin will realize, this is absolutely incredible technically. Of course, again it can be argued here whether this is just a technique display ? I don't think so. In fact, if someone does not play the violin, he may not even realize that it is difficult to pull off. This isn't the L subramanium type in-your-face technique display; its a lot subtler.

I just love the fact that they tried something new...and It would have required long hours of practice at home just to present this in front of the audience.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Oct 2010, 23:42

Krazy4music, thanks for the link. It sounds good and it is in the category/genre of what the Chennai Quarter does and what Anil does with Piano accompaniment.

The challenge for all the innovators is huge: They need to create the context for the audience so they get the piece and the resulting bhAvam. With the krithi format, that context is well established. If the audience does not get that, even the charitable will perceive it as 'just innovation for innovation sake'. That of course will take time, assuming that the innovators are coming at it from a certain emotional context and creativity in mind, rather than just innovating. Innovation is to be treated as a tool, a necessary thing for the new aesthetic.

The example I am thinking of is what happened in the WCM circles with Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring in the early part of the last century. His innovation from the then standard practice was in using complex rhythms and dissonance. ( for example, listen to what he did between the 2:50 to 3:05: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uMfXh4OOx8 ). But Stravinsky created that in the context of a ballet which itself was trying to do something new.

It was hugely controversial then both for how the ballet was choreographed and the music but later it was considered to be an important composition with significant innovations. To get an idea on how much a departure the piece was, in some sections of the composition, every bar has a different time signature, and a lot of dissonance sections thrown around. He seemed to have structured and created it to represent the aesthetic of the theme of the ballet. Now, that piece stands by itself even without the ballet context, because the audience gets it.

What are you referring to when you say "the shadjam concept"?

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 04 Oct 2010, 03:19

I listened and enjoyed the GK brothers' performance when they came to Austin as part of Ustad Zakir Hussain's ensemble. I have a few of their CD's including the Shadjam album. So I have nothing against them.

Also, my CM immersion therapy is approaching just three years and my western classical music experience is limited to a few masterpieces and the ambiance of living in the western world.

Having exposed my ignorance, I ask this: Why do I feel that their music sounds very western at times? (example: their Vasantham CD and their Augusta concert from Sangeethapriya.) They are gifted musicians. If they would explore the core of CM instead of trying to expand its horizon, they would give us 24 ct. music. CM is not exhausted, yet.

I enjoy the two systems as they are, like kesari and idli-sambar. I would have them one after another, not together!

Krazy4music · Post by **Krazy4music** » 04 Oct 2010, 15:48

VK,

Very Interesting comment.I have been reading this forum for quite some time now even though I have not posted much and you are one of my favorite posters.

You have again proven why

.I really like the comment:-

"The challenge for all the innovators ..... a necessary thing for the new aesthetic"

There is something there that both artists and rasikas can ponder over.

The Shadjam Concept :-

It comes from their Album titled "Shadjam- the Aadhara Swara". What they did was that they tried to play a whole concert/ CD using Graha Bedham.

So they started with Kalyani and Presented the Kalyani Varnam.

Then they made the R2 of Kalyani as the Sa and play a Sahana Kriti.

Later they make the G3 of Kalyani the Sa and play a Saramati Kriti...

And so on.

More details here

http://www.charsur.com/charsur/index.ph ... ts_id=1223

What is amazing for me here is that they do this WITHOUT CHANGING THE VIOLIN TUNING each time they change the Sa.(If they were allowed to retune the violin then this would have been trivial). However now this is technically a very challenging Task. Of course, It can be argued whether this is just a display of technical mastery.My personal opinion is that it is not...it allows the audience to feel how the same notes with different ornamentations and more
importantly a different "Sa" , completely transforms one Raaga to another.

Enna Solven,

Interesting comment.I have heard many express this view.

I think that every artist is different. Some people love the Music...some people love their instrument...some people gain thier energy and inspiration from the crowd...some are intellectual in nature.

In WCM, one of my favorite pianists is the Canadian Glenn Gould. Now Gould used to say about Richter, that for him(Richter) the instrument (piano) is immaterial. He just looks at the music and it flows from him. He would have been a great musician at ANY intrument.

However someone like Vladmir Horrowitz is a Virtuoso...he is very much the type of artist who loves to show the audience " Look AT ME, this is what I CaN DO!!". The Piano is so much a part of who he is as an Artist. You cannot think of a Paganini without the violin!

This is what makes every musician so different, because he brings his philosophy (unconsciously perhaps) into the music.

I dont know Ganesh-Kumaresh and so really we must ask them directly. But my guess is that they love the violin for its own sake. They must be naturally curious whether they can add Spicatto here , a Richochet bowing there...can we use the fact that we are playing together to present some thirds, fifts and
octaves....we must try and synchronize our bowings for effect etc etc.

I think that some of their innovations...synchorized bowing....quick octave shifts...softening some of the Gamakas.. etc remind you of Western music.Also Some of their innovations (Raga Pravaham) may have to be tried at home and so they are precomposed pieces like Western Classical pieces.

However I would request you to seach for a Podhugai TV broadcast of them playing Sankari (Saveri) which is available on youtube, then you will realize that they can be fairly good at traditional carnatic music as well.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 04 Oct 2010, 18:37

http://www.mediafire.com/?6ufku65wxjbqx97

from a Concert held on 11-10-1981 , somewhere in Andhra .
Incidentally that was the day I landed in Chennai for the first time , for my first job .
A Love story with this city that continues to this day .
If you like this Lalgudiesque Concert , Can post the remaining portion too.

Shyamala Rangarajan · Post by **Shyamala Rangarajan** » 04 Oct 2010, 21:30

Thanks for providing the link for a part of GK's 1981 concert. I enjoyed listening to the recording. The pieces in Sahana and Saveri are very good. It was a performance given by GK when they were in their teens, showing musical maturity of a very high order. I am eager to listen to the whole concert. Kindly upload it. Thanks in advance.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Oct 2010, 22:23

>this Lalgudiesque Concert

After just the first 10 seconds, I knew what you meant, internet DJ!! Excellent stuff.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 05 Oct 2010, 08:01

VK
Thank God . I thought you would call me Rasika-Rogue

Well it certainly shows the important influence the Trio of LG-TNK-MSG have had on a generation of violinists .
You will see more of that as the concert progresses, here.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ky33wyh07mb94xi
Most instrumental concerts are ragapravahams only , very rarely striving to showcase the krithi.
SB , TNR , Karaikurchi , Mali , Dwaram , come to mind immediately .
So it is not surprising to see this duo experimenting on these lines.
But the fusion stuff and Sivamani at Thiruvayyaru have never made sense to me.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 Oct 2010, 08:52

Krazy4music wrote:The Ragas are very carnatic, the talam is carnatic, the gamakam is carnatic...its just the package that is changing. AND HOW!!!

In the clip below, listen to how they make Janaranjani sound totally fresh by introducing chords... playing thirds etc...look how one violin is playing pizzicato at some places...at some places it plays tremelo...At some places you have counterpoint...Wonderful
---
I think that every artist is different. Some people love the Music...some people love their instrument...some people gain thier energy and inspiration from the crowd...some are intellectual in nature.
---
I dont know Ganesh-Kumaresh and so really we must ask them directly. But my guess is that they love the violin for its own sake. They must be naturally curious whether they can add Spicatto here , a Richochet bowing there...can we use the fact that we are playing together to present some thirds, fifts and
octaves....we must try and synchronize our bowings for effect etc etc.

Well, the terms you've used here aren't that Carnatic, you know! But yes, we can see you know a lot about music (no, I don't mean to say you're trying to show off or something ... this is a sincere compliment). Of the people who try fusing all these WCM concepts into their music, I would say GK are reasonably aesthetic. But I somehow like VSN's quatrette much more, even though I've heard them less, and never heard them live! Maybe because there are four people, and different varieties of instruments they somehow make the kriti stand out much better. The cello or viola doesn't invade into a violin's melody the way another violin can!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 Oct 2010, 08:57

Most instrumental concerts are ragapravahams only , very rarely striving to showcase the krithi.
SB , TNR , Karaikurchi , Mali , Dwaram , come to mind immediately .

Not KS?!

Well, yeah, SB and Mali played their kritis with a lot of flair and personal touch.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Oct 2010, 09:08

Srikant, I think Thimma was using these as examples of people who very rarely strive to showcase the krithi?

As for G-K, there is nothing more to be said (on my part) after their Tiruvaiyyaru fiasco with Sivamani.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Oct 2010, 09:09

And yes, I have a high regard for VSN's quartet.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Oct 2010, 10:41

MT, oh..never..
Yes, I see more of that in the other songs as well. thx.
Quite surprised and very pleasantly so to hear a very mature and reposeful Mukhari as part of the ragamalika swaras in the RTP.

I recall that Thiruvayyaru stuff..yeah.. it was definitely out of place. Again, it is the context problem.

Krazy4music · Post by **Krazy4music** » 05 Oct 2010, 10:55

Thanks mankuthimma for that wonderful recording from the past.

I have downloaded part 1 and have enjoyed it immensely.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 05 Oct 2010, 11:16

srikanth
all concerts minus most concerts equals the likes of ks , doreswamy iyengar , ksg and any other name you want add . So nothing wrong with what I said , I hope.
A few years down the line after this concert they played a magnificent murugha murugha and a mind boggling nalinakanthi.
Will put that up too.
One can notice that after a glorious alapana in NK , the krithi rendering fails to enthuse.
Compare this with Lalgudis Vocal chords which show ( on most videos) that he is singing (internally) while is playing . Or to TNK's plucking of some wax from his Hairdo to embellish the krithi at some very delicate moments . That bow could be a feather.
Or MSG's gentle sway from side to side while playing the krithi . As though he is rocking a cradle

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 06 Oct 2010, 10:44

Shyamala Rangarajan wrote:
There was an unique violin concert by Shri Ganesh and Shri Kumaresh, this morning (at 9 AM) in Podhigai and other Regional channels. The first half of the concert was called Ragapravaham. The two Ragas taken up were Mayamalavagowla and Dharmavathi. The uniqueness of Ragapravaham is that there is no lyrics for the items only melody and tala. It was a wonderfully new approach to our classical system. Perhaps this approach is more suited to the instrumenal rendition. So it is Carnatic Music sans language !!

Musicians like to tell you that to really bring out the bhava of a kriti, one must understand and internalize the feelings of the composer when he composed the song.

I would suppose that the composer expressed his feelings in the words of the kriti. E.g., "Nidhi chala sukhama"; "Hiranmayeem Lakshmim Sadha Bhajami"; "O Jagadamba", etc.

Deekshithar says "bhava raga tala modhini" in kis kritis. That perhaps implies that bhava, raga and tala are all important in that order.

Instrumentalists, if they want to abandon lyrics, may as well say "raga raga tala modhini". Mridanga vidwans would beg to differ from them and say "tala tala tala modhini"! The way some of the mridangists want the volume raised, they already imply that.

Shyamala Rangarajan wrote:
I want to hear the views of the knowledgeable members of our group on this new approach.

You asked for it; you got it. ]

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Oct 2010, 10:58

Harimau: That may be a rather limited view where bhava comes from. You quote Deekshithar, and so it is hard for me disagree with you without disagreeing with deekshithar... no disrespect to the great composer..

Without speaking about Ganesh, Kumaresh's efforts about which I do not know much yet....
I agree our tradition is lyric focused. But it is an order of magnitude harder to communicate emotions through music alone without words. , That only makes it much more of a significant achievement if some one manages to pull it off.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 06 Oct 2010, 13:44

Harimau, I think it's desperately narrow-minded to assume that bhAva comes from lyrics alone.

That said, I haven't heard any of these "Ragapravahams" before, and I don't think I miss them either.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 06 Oct 2010, 13:58

vasanthakokilam wrote:Harimau: That may be a rather limited view where bhava comes from. You quote Deekshithar, and so it is hard for me disagree with you without disagreeing with deekshithar... no disrespect to the great composer..

Absolutely no disrespect to the great composer meant.
raga bhavam is best showcased in MD kritis.
As an aside for you being cautious and stating that you meant no disrespect, I sometime back read in the forum, someone questioning the authority of MD over the sanskrit language and versatility

Anyways he sure is and will remain to be the greatest composer ever

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 14 Oct 2010, 21:12

mankuthimma wrote: Most instrumental concerts are ragapravahams only , very rarely striving to showcase the krithi.

Not really!! Most legendary instrumentalists- TNK, Lalgudi, Ramani included- mostly play well known kritis such that the audience can relate to the sahitya and bhava.

In our music there is a separate section called Aalaapanai, to which it is preferable to contain the ragapravaham. If it overflows, the pravaham will sink us all

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 19 Oct 2010, 01:54

kssr wrote: Not really!! Most legendary instrumentalists- TNK, Lalgudi, Ramani included- mostly play well known kritis such that the audience can relate to the sahitya and bhava.

In our music there is a separate section called Aalaapanai, to which it is preferable to contain the ragapravaham. If it overflows, the pravaham will sink us all

You mean, the audience can relate to the sahitya and bhava when the singer sings "nijamar mamulanu" or "paluku kandacha" or "vAraNA syamvara prathamsri" or "rAmanannubrOvara" (look it up!) or "vinatA sutavA hanasrI ramaNA" or "shivudanO mA thavudanO" or sings a rapid fire neraval at "mamatA bandhanayuta" ? Names withheld to protect the guilty.

The fact of the matter is that, I am sad to say, almost all our senior vocal musicians whom we seemingly cannot stop praising in this very forum have butchered the lyrics in their concerts. Have we complained when these greats did that to the sahitya? What happened to the sahitya bhAva there?

Have these greats shown the inclination to tailor their immense musical creativity to fit the sahitya, rather than show off their pyrotechnic prowess? Historically we have consistently ignored those great musicians amongst us who showed restraint along these lines or tried to teach us the true meaning of a T or D kriti.

As a result, generations of CM rasikas have lived and died not knowing the import of the words that were being sung inside beautiful melodies.

Why should we complain if Ganesh/Kumaresh want to do away with lyrics altogether? What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, after all.

-Then paanan

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Oct 2010, 09:13

Goose or gander, when it comes to gAnam,
nidAnam and no padac cEdam
Makes it gandharva gAnam

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 19 Oct 2010, 09:45

You mean, the audience can relate to the sahitya and bhava when the singer sings "nijamar mamulanu"

I'm not aware of this song.

or "paluku kandacha"

This isn't very popular either.

or "vAraNA syamvara prathamsri"

You have any alternatives to suggest? Can you record and post them?

or "rAmanannubrOvara" (look it up!)

This is an utterly clear line! I understand it well enough not to look it up. How is there any butchery here?

or "vinatA sutavA hanasrI ramaNA"

Often dvityAkShara prAsam in Tyagaraja's kritis come this way only. vina- and hana- have such a prAsam. Even in mundu venuka, it comes as endu-(raghu)nandana ...

or "shivudanO mA thavudanO"

It's mAdhavuDano! th and dh differ in Telugu, though neither all Telugus (nor, of course, all Tamilians) bother to differentiate them!

or sings a rapid fire neraval at "mamatA bandhanayuta" ?

This is much more subjective.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 19 Oct 2010, 19:35

I have often found it hard to understand why some musicians use laya/tala in the form of mrdangam support during a raga rendition. It does not seem to make any sense.

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 21 Oct 2010, 01:50

srikant1987 wrote:"nijamar mamulanu" -- I'm not aware of this song.

The full kriti is at http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html. This kriti in umAbharaNam was made very popular by MMI, who would oh so casually stop at "mar" in the transition from the pallavi to anupallavi or charaNam. And he was not the only one. At least he could have gone up to "marmamu"!

"paluku kandacha" This isn't very popular either.

The full kriti is at http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html. Note that beginning of this navarasakannada song is beautiful. T says "paluku kanda chakkera." To quote the excellent Shri Govindan "The sweetness of words spoken [by Lord rAma] is like the sweetness of sugar-candy." It is not hard to discern that "cha" is part of "chakkera" but our vidwans quite deliberately stop at cha. And what is even to make it even sadder, I have heard at least one vidwan who is a well-known and respected vaggeyakAra do this. Would he like similar treatment of his own kritis, I wonder.

or "vAraNA syamvara prathamsri" You have any alternatives to suggest? Can you record and post them?

I confess I am dumbfounded here by the question. It is not a question of alternatives. The words are "vArANAsyam varapradam sri". Any version of vAtApi gaNapatim bhajeham by MDR (for example) is good enough. Please see Prince Rama Varma's blog on this issue. This has also been discussed elsewhere on this forum I think.

or "rAmanannubrOvara" This is an utterly clear line! I understand it well enough not to look it up. How is there any butchery here?

The words are "rAma nannu brOva rAv(E)makO". See http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html. Again to quote Shri Govindan, the meaning is "O Lord rAma! Why is it (EmakO) that You wouldnâ€™t come (rAvu) (rAvEmakO) to protect (brOva) me?" The difference is that T is asking 'rAmA, why are you NOT coming to protect me' as opposed to 'rAmA, come protect me'. This has also been pointed out in this forum in another thread a long time ago. It would be fine if our vidwans stopped at "brOva" or at 'rAvEmakO" but they quite deliberately stop at "brOvarA". Why?

or "vinatA sutavA hanasrI ramaNA"Often dvityAkShara prAsam in Tyagaraja's kritis come this way only. vina- and hana- have such a prAsam. Even in mundu venuka, it comes as endu-(raghu)nandana ...

The words are really " vinatA suta vAhana SrI ramaNa". You may argue that emphasizing the prAsam is more important than breaking up the words correctly but I cannot see how that adds to understanding sAhitya bhAva.

or "shivudanO mA thavudanO" It's mAdhavuDano! th and dh differ in Telugu, though neither all Telugus (nor, of course, all Tamilians) bother to differentiate them!

More than that, I cannot discern if it is necessary to take a breath between "mA" and "dhavudanO". It would have been just as easy to take a breath after "shivuDano" but the tradition has not been that way. The point is that it is quite easy to do the right thing by the sAhitya but for some reason we don't. And in this case we cannot even complain that we cannot understand the words. "shivuDano" and "mAdhavuDano" are the same in all the southern languages to some degree of approximation.

or sings a rapid fire neraval at "mamatA bandhanayuta" ?This is much more subjective.

Of course, it is subjective. And that is precisely my point here. Here is Shri Govindan's translation:

O My Mind!

Tell me truthfully -

Is extolling humans bound by egotism comforting or singing songs of the pure minded Lord praised by this tyAgarAja comforting?

If CM culture was serious about sAhitya bhAva and you understood the rather sombre nature of the lyrics, would you sing a rapid neraval replete with high octane brigAs?

In any case, my point, which I hope has been made by the examples above, is simply that in the CM tradition lyrics are merely used for the syllables i.e. as a vehicle for singing the melody. When the choice comes between singing faithfully to the lyrics (in word and in spirit) as against singing with respect to melodic/rhythmic convenience or convenience of doing manOdharma, our vidwans have consistently forsaken the first. People like MDR or BMK who strived to protect the status of the lyric were always outside the mainstream. Things may be getting a bit better now with the modern generation such as TMK or BJ but to suddenly claim that sAhitya bhAva has always been an important part of CM culture is laughable.

-Then Paanan

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 21 Oct 2010, 08:25

srkris wrote:I have often found it hard to understand why some musicians use laya/tala in the form of mrdangam support during a raga rendition. It does not seem to make any sense.

Do you mean nadaswaram with tavil accompaniment?

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 21 Oct 2010, 12:38

he is probably referring to thanam .

Singing with a fair knowledge of lyrics - apart from not driving the respective natives to tearing their hair in frustration - alos provides a lovely opportunity for the singer to add his thoughts to the Composers Views . Look how Tadepalli does it here.
http://www.mediafire.com/?bjceic56auj8vlc

BTW is there any other Art form on earth where the singers have just a faint idea of what they are singing ,exactly.
The only similar experience I have is of the Traders in Shimoga filling up the theatre (Near Gopi Circle) for the morning shows , featuring English Movies . After opening their shops and handing it over to the assistants . They would loudly exchange their interpretations of what was happening on the screen .

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 21 Oct 2010, 12:39

And they would howl with anger when the intimate scenes would go Dark . Complaining why those English Movies could not have uniform lighting throughout.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Oct 2010, 14:38

Many British western classical music fans only have a vague idea of what they are watching, when it is in Italian, German, etc --- but I think that the artists have to know!

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 21 Oct 2010, 22:57

mankuthimma wrote: The only similar experience I have is of the Traders in Shimoga filling up the theatre (Near Gopi Circle) for the morning shows , featuring English Movies . After opening their shops and handing it over to the assistants . They would loudly exchange their interpretations of what was happening on the screen .

This reminds me of a bunch of friends I used to hang out with in an earlier life.

One day Friend #1 decides (I was not there then) that they should all go watch a movie but unfortunately only hindi movies were being screened that day. Friend #2 does not understand Hindi, so he complains that it would be a waste of money and does not want to go.

Now F1 who is not easily dissuaded (will do anything to avoid studying) persuades F2 to come along on the promise that he would translate the dialogues into Tamil. But F1 somehow forgets to tell F2 that he does not know Hindi either.

Meanwhile a third friend #3 decides to join along for the fun. So these three fellows go watch the movie -- F1 dutifully translates for F2, but not knowing Hindi his "translation" is his own fiction ("sondha sAhityam" as they say in Tamil). And I have to tell you F1 cannot talk softly but there aer only a few people for that afternoon show.

Now it turns out that the movie is utterly boring and F1's version of the story is far more interesting than the actual movie story. So F3 starts paying more attention to F1's story than the movie.

At intermission the movie hall empties out entirely except for a clutch of people sitting around F1, F2, F3. Apparently the entire remaining audience (according to F3) was listening agog to F1's made-up story.

Sometimes difficult circumstances bring out the best in people.

-Then Paanan

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 22 Oct 2010, 00:11

mankuthimma wrote: Singing with a fair knowledge of lyrics - apart from not driving the respective natives to tearing their hair in frustration - also provides a lovely opportunity for the singer to add his thoughts to the Composers Views . Look how Tadepalli does it here.
http://www.mediafire.com/?bjceic56auj8vlc

Thimmaji

Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you .....

Such a gem. One of those rare moments when music really comes alive for you.

To fully appreciate the choices that Shri Tadepalli made in this piece I had to look up the word-for-word meaning of the song. Here it is for the benefit of other readers.

From Shri Govindan's translation http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html (I have taken only the portion that is relevant here)

pallavi
ninnE nera namminAnurA O rAma rAmayya

O Lord rAma! O Lord rAmayya! I have much (nera) trusted (namminAnurA) You alone (ninnE).

anupallavi
anni kallalu-anucu ADi pADi vEDi
pannaga Sayana nE cinna tanamu nADE (ninnE)

O Lord reclining (Sayana) on the couch of SEsha â€“ the snake (pannaga)! O Lord rAma! O Lord rAmayya!
Considering (anucu) everything (else) (anni) as untrue (kallalu) (kallalanucunu), right from my childhood (cinna tanamu) days (nADE), I (nE) have much trusted You alone,
beseeching (vEDi) You by dancing (ADi) and singing (pADi).

caraNam 3
I janmamuna ninnu rAji jEsukona lEka
rAjillaru-ani tyAgarAja rAja rAghava (ninnE)

Realising that (ani), in this (I) life (janmamuna), none can flourish (rAjillaru) (rAjillarani) without (lEka) Your consent (ninnu rAji jEsukona) (literally being consented by You),
O Lord rAghava â€“ master (rAja) of this tyAgarAja! O Lord rAma! O Lord rAmayya! I have much trusted You alone.
[/i]

For those interested in the real merging of lyrics and melody combined with sensitive singing, this is a must-listen.

First, Shri Tadepalli starts directly with the anupalavi ("ani kallalanucu ADi pADi vEDi") a la MDR. But he does not complete the anupallavi but goes back to pallavi "ninnenera" right away.

You have to understand the lyrics to see why this makes sense. Tyagaraja says "Considering (anucu) everything (else) (anni) as untrue (kallalu) (kallalanucunu), right from my childhood (cinna tanamu) days (nADE), I (nE) have much trusted You alone,
beseeching (vEDi) You by dancing (ADi) and singing (pADi). And in the pallavi Tyagaraja says "I have much (nera) trusted (namminAnurA) You alone."

And then Shri Tadepalli returns to the second line of the anupallavi ("O Lord reclining (Sayana) on the couch of SEsha â€“ the snake (pannaga)! O Lord rAma!") a line that stands on its own.

What a beautiful interpretation of the kriti! I have never heard this done by any one else and this is fairly common kriti (some would even say beaten to death).

But this is not all. Another interesting thing that Shri Tadepalli does is the neraval line.

He uses the entire kriti in srambled form in one sense, but perfectly apt if you know the words. Every line from the kriti appears in the neraval in a different order but he stops and takes a breath at the right places to emphasize the words as if he were speaking to RAMA himself (e.g. the way he sings 'rAghavA, ninne nera...").

Just to give you an example, Shri Tadepalli sometimes sings "ani kallalunucu ADi pADi vEDI pannaga shayanA! I janmamu ninnu rAji jEsukona lEka rAjillaru-ani tyAgarAja rAja rAghava ninnenera namminAnurA" -- briefly, it means "having given my earlier beliefs of childhood I am now singing and dancing for you, realizing no one can flourish without your consent." But to do that you have to join the anupallavi to the charanam before returning to the pallavi.

And all this time Shri Tadepalli is giving a superb account of Pantuvarali without breaking a sweat or indulging in pyrotechniques, singing sweetly without harshness in voice or temperament. He even uses the tension in the Pantuvarali nishAdam to evoke the pathos in "ani kallalanucu". No one can say that the lyrics came in the way of manOdharmam. And more importantly what he is singing seems in place with the mood of the lyrics.

This kind of singing is a direct challenge to CM orthodoxy, this kind of reinterpretation, of singing kritis as you understand it, not slavishly following tradition, is what CM should be about. Instead we have lapsed to ... (put your favorite thing in here).

No wonder Shri Tadepalli cannot get a concert in the Chennai season. Clearly CM audiences have never been educated by our esteemed vidwans to appreciate this kind of high art.

Musicians like Shri Tadepalli show that those who claim that lyrics are not important in CM or come in the way are just lazy or making excuses for their incompetence.

Thanks again to Shri Tadepalli and Thimmaji. May their tribes increase!

-Then Paanan

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 22 Oct 2010, 06:18

Then Panan... Thanks
I knew this track will hit the bulls eye.

I chose it from a number of contenders

Hope your Pravaham helps in getting more numbers to attend our Nov 20th Concert of Tadepalli

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 22 Oct 2010, 18:47

mankuthimma wrote:Then Panan... Thanks
I knew this track will hit the bulls eye. I chose it from a number of contenders
Hope your Pravaham helps in getting more numbers to attend our Nov 20th Concert of Tadepalli

Best for your Nov 20 concert. Having listened to this and other recordings you have posted, I am sure Shri Tadepalli will deliver. I am curious to know who your finalists and semi-finalists and quarter-finalists were.

-Then Paanan

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 22 Oct 2010, 20:23

I am curious to know who your finalists and semi-finalists and quarter-finalists were.

will come up in the concert invitation thread

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Oct 2010, 10:46

That Shri Tadepalli track is a great one. Thanks Thimma. Thanks Then Panan for highlighting Thimma's intent and idea behind sharing that link in this context. It is quite a different listening experience now.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 23 Oct 2010, 11:09

Thanks VK . I am learning , on the run , not to get entangled in quarrels and move on to some learning.
Thanks Thenpanan , for putting words to my feelings . The Thimma in my avatar is being awakened slowly .

Priya Ravi · Post by **Priya Ravi** » 30 Dec 2010, 20:54

Ganesh Kumaresh on their concept called Raagapravaham

http://www.chennailivenews.com/music-se ... yaru04.asp

priyaravi1998 · Post by **priyaravi1998** » 23 Feb 2012, 17:25

Shri Kumaresh at TEDx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXv1qVfn ... ture=share

priyaravi1998 · Post by **priyaravi1998** » 23 Feb 2012, 17:25

Shri Kumaresh at TEDx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXv1qVfn ... ture=share

anandmurty · Post by **anandmurty** » 24 Feb 2012, 12:18

If CM culture was serious about sAhitya bhAva and you understood the rather sombre nature of the lyrics, would you sing a rapid neraval replete with high octane brigAs?

Thenpaanan, thanks a tonne. Your lucid posts point to the kind of emphasis placed on the aesthetics of music in practice. It's probably a fundamental question that any artiste ought to dwell on.

It's funny/ironic just how similar the aesthetics are between "Carnatic" and "Hindustani" systems given that most of us on both sides of this imaginary divide continue to harp on the differences.

Just the other day, I was watching Amol Palekar's docu on Kishori Amonkar. She talks about a bandish describing Shiva as the ascetic, as the destroyer and wonders why musicians sing a graceful meend instead of a forceful one that would be more in "tune" with the lyrical mood. In Marathi, she thunders "This is not the loving husband of Parvati that the words are describing! Then why the excessive sweetness?!"

Again, reading Balachander's biography, perhaps the time is ripe for a deeper debate in CM circles, one that gives the "fringes" a fair and objective listening. It is bound to make people extremely uncomfortable but I'd rather be in flux than hear a Sangitha Kalanidhi sing:

"EndarO MAhAnubhAvu....LandarIkI vandana mulu"! or "himachala tanaya brO chutaki di..."

priyaravi1998 · Post by **priyaravi1998** » 27 Feb 2012, 10:25

Shri Ganesh Rajagopalan's views as in his facebook post......

Raga pravaham is just not about being able to play raga alapanai and kalpana swarams the way instrumental players want or a singer wants to sing...

Ragapravaham is also about giving meaning to the raga through a composition without the baggage of lyrics.....

Compositions have become the mainstay of our music, for that matter any music... It is through them that the music is identified...,Compositions have become the vehicle to understand , appreciate, educate, practise, profess music.. Hence to do all these through instruments in the shape of compositions is the challenge here......especially because the style and form of compositions have become so entrenched in our system that to get audiences to appreciate any other way is an uphill task...

So, right now the concentration is on compositions which have no lyrics....That is what instruments dont have to boast about..... we need a bank of compositions without lyrics designed for different instruments, so in a span of 10,20 30 years we will have thousands which can also be propogated by the instrumental gurus and in turn by their students.....

the essential need is that all quality instrumental players have to compose without lyrics and popularize them amongst their students of music and audiences in general..

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 27 Feb 2012, 20:16

which came first - raga or lyrics and does layam and bhavam go with ragam or lyrics? Some genius come out with a concept which finds market and it is all about that.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Feb 2012, 12:54

Surely that is a chicken/egg question!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Feb 2012, 08:32

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXv1qVfn ... ture=share

Don't really have as much a problem with the music as with the rhetoric!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 29 Feb 2012, 08:54

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXv1qVfn ... ture=share

This is the first time I listened to a "rAga pravAham" :tmi: and now my suspicion that they will be bunch-of-swarams compositions is confirmed.

Bunch-of-swarams compositions definitely don't use all aspects of articulation of (Carnatic) music on the violin.