Repertoires of Carnatic musicians

[keerthi]

Not sure which section to post this under.. chose this one for reasons of visibility.

There are so many songs that we know were known to masters of the previous generation, and may or may not be available on record. I thought that rasikas would be an appropriate place to make detailed lists of each artiste's repertoire.

There are several senior and seasoned [one doesn't necessarily mean the other!]rasikas, who can fill us in with song they have heard, but which may not exist in recordings.

1. We will be able to see the richness and variety in each vidvAn's and viduSi's song-list.

2. this may be a valuable document(s)of information regarding the artistes. I remember seeing one such list in the journal Shruti, in the special issues on KVN.

3. Could we make it out in the excel format, with columns added on for more annotation, if available? If the songs are available as commercial record, the discography format could be used. If someone remembers it from a certain concert or programme, it could be mentioned as such.

[srkris]

Dont you feel this exercise would be similar to counting the stars on a dark night?

[mahavishnu]

Srkris makes a good point. I think counting (and documenting) the entire repertoire of major musicians would be a mathematically under-determined problem.
Just as an example, my guru the late Sri Kittamani Iyer (great teacher from West Mambalam) was credited with knowing several hundred Tyagaraja kritis in depth. Although he only taught a smaller subsection of those to his students. Even he was not cognizant of how many songs he knew!

Keerthi: I like the general idea though. We could attempt to target the frequently sung compositions of great performers/musicians and try to look for modalities in their repertoire. Maybe even share clips (where's coolji when we need him?)...Maybe you could expand on how you propose to go about this.

[cacm]

In general the available recordings of MMI probably is close to 25 percent& ARI is 10 percent of their repertoire.......For various reasons the recordings are unavailable.....So we should approach this topic with lots of caution.....VKV

[narayan]

A daunting and worthwhile task! There would be someone or other rasika to take ownership of many individual greats of the past. And once it begins, I'm sure people would add to it. Right now, I cannot visualize how to do it, but I'm always interested in any song that for example, Ramnad Krishnan has sung in recordings anywhere. I'm always pleased to know more songs that people like Nedunuri have sung (because then I know that there is a recording somewhere and also that the Malladi brothers may know it and it lives on in a certain way). Recent examples for me are Manasuna neranammiti (Begada) by Ramnad which I found somewhere and earlier, when I heard Bhajare Bhaja manasa (Kannada) by Nedunuri, I did not breathe during that song on radio, not realizing at the time that recordings would eventually emerge. Similarly for Epaniko in the Acad concert of Nedunuri in 2009 (?). In days past, when I first heard Raghupate rama by DKJ, I can still remember the experience, because with youthful arrogance I had assumed that I had heard most of the songs rendered by him, based on a few concerts that I heard, and I was stunned to hear this new thing, so I listened to it very respectfully and with all my might. So it goes. In summary, I'm all for it.

Having said all this, I'm often affected all the more when I hear a song in person, by some youngster!

[cienu]

We do have a well documented discography of MS for all the commercial releases. The link is available below (thanks to the efforts of Navaneet who is a diehard MS devotee & also a disciple of Smt Radha Viswanathan)
http://www.msstribute.org/pdf/MSS-Discography.pdf
The number of MS songs in private collections is much more. If AIR could throw open its archives to a dedicated team of rasikas we could unravel many more rare pieces.

[Lakshman]

Item # 11 under 78 rpm recordings - kAlai tUkki ninrADum deivamE is by Marimutta Pillai.

Here are some HMV 78 rpm recordings missing in the list:

N 28050 - yAmarinda mozhigaLilE, shentamizh nADenum, vAzhiya shentamizh
N 28150 - maNNum imayamalai
N 95239 - muDiyonri mUvulagil
N 95327 - vaDavaraiyai mattAki
N 16464 - rAma milankE (hindi), main niruguNiyA (hindi)
N 16484 - nainA nainA (hindi), Ek sahArA tErA (hindi)
N 95337 - kaliyugadali
N 14408 - raghupati rAghava rAjArAm (with chorus)
N 14421 - vandE mAtaram (samskrt_ with Dilipkumar Roy, the flip side of dhan dhAnya)

[keerthi]

narayan,

I can totally understand your forgetting to breathe!

I was thinking of both an artiste-wise and songwise mapping. For instance, I'm sure you will be delighted to know that all of VolEti, DR.S.RAmanAthan, Smts Brinda and Mukta and R.K.SrikanTan have sung bhajarE bhaja in kannaDa.

Manasuna nera nammitini was so popular once upon a time, and was considered too common to sing in programmes; is now a rarity.

Cienu,
Of course Navaneet's splendid example is a model for us to follow, but we can do so much more than discography, which is constrained by available recordings. We know that Smt. MSS knew and sang the shyama shastri Anandabhairavi varnam, and the yadukulakambhoji padam, upamugA nE. My teacher has heard her sing the begaDa piece 'nI padapankajamula'. These may or may not be available on record but will give us access to another dimension of the artistes.

padren told me that he has heard voleti sing SrisubrahmanyAya namaste and Akshayalinga vibhO.

People have heard Brinda sing the kurinji padam SivadIksAparulu, Mukta sing srIsubrahmanyAya and giripai.

I am sure there is much much more.


I request the more tech-savvy amongst us, to suggest how we should go about this.

[Enna_Solven]

For instance, I'm sure you will be delighted to know that all of VolEti, DR.S.RAmanAthan, Smts Brinda and Mukta and R.K.SrikanTan have sung bhajarE bhaja in kannaDa.

I have versions from LGJ,NR,MDR,Voleti, Sowmay and U. Srinivas.

Thee are many ways to organize data and most people would have at least song/ragam data encoded in file names (assuming they listen to it on their computers). If these can be collected I can collate it. My own song collection is organized in my music software.

A quick check of my MediaMonkey database for KVN:
882 songs total (concerts from SPR and CD's)
320 unique songs (approx)
Most sung songs: krishna nee-15, jagadoddharana-12, varugalamo-11, tharuni jnan-9, endaro mahanubhavulu-9 (not including RTP-24 and mangalam)

[narayan]

About BhajarE bhaja mAnasa, I've got over it - and resumed breathing! The first time I heard it in a concert was by S Sowmya, so I assume that there are prevalent versions (other than Nedunuri's). There are two parts to this - as I see it, (a) to see the artiste's repertoire (I'm game to go through lists of KVN, Ramnad, Voleti, Nedanuri, Brinda-Mukta, and quite a few others) and (b) to see if there are convincingly different versions that have emerged over time (for example, everyone who sings Kaarubaaru sings more or less the same way, but this is not so for several songs - sukhi evvaro, vidulaku, emi jesite and others come to mind).

Someone like Enna_solven would be the person to suggest ways and means (I'm sure there are quite a few others who are equally tech savvy and committed). Certainly not me, as I don't have organized lists of music that I listen to, don't make notes at concerts and so on. I am amazed at and respectful of those who are able to retrieve music and share it with us, like coolkarni and venkatakailasam and others. Small fry like me would certainly go through lists and enjoy that experience and perhaps add a small part here and there. If I understood it right, keerthi has in mind not only commercial discography but authentic renderings which may be available. As an archival task, it would be stupendous, and it's exactly the sort of community project that emerges from this sort of forum.

[cienu]

Thanks LJI,

Will incorporate these additions

[ranjanimalavi]

I have indexed (most of them) my collection (there can be many typo's)
If it is useful I can put it somewhere.
I have organized by the (composer, raga, song, type, artist, vocal/instrument)
I can generate in any form.

order_composer_raga_song_type.txt
order_composer_raga_type_song.txt
order_composer_song_raga_type.txt
order_composer_song_type_raga.txt
order_composer_type_raga_song.txt
order_composer_type_song_raga.txt
order_raga_composer_song_type.txt
order_raga_composer_type_song.txt
order_raga_song_composer_type.txt
order_raga_song_type_composer.txt
order_raga_type_composer_song.txt
order_raga_type_song_composer.txt
order_song_composer_raga_type.txt
order_song_composer_type_raga.txt
order_song_raga_composer_type.txt
order_song_raga_type_composer.txt
order_song_type_composer_raga.txt
order_song_type_raga_composer.txt
order_type_composer_raga_song.txt
order_type_composer_song_raga.txt
order_type_raga_composer_song.txt
order_type_raga_song_composer.txt
order_type_song_composer_raga.txt
order_type_song_raga_composer.txt

Example 1 :

52. G. N. Balasubramanian
1. Aarabhi
1. Maravanune Ninu
1. Krithi
1. Vocal
1. T. V. Ramachandran
1. GNB_KRITHIS 23
2. Abhogi
1. Thamasamika
1. Krithi
1. Vocal
1. S. Kalyanaraman
1. GNB_KRITHIS 53
1. OST14 03
1. SK16 06
1. SK22 03
3. Amrithabehag
1. Kamala Charane
1. Krithi
1. Veena
1. P. Vasanth Kumar
1. PVASANTH02 03
2. Vocal
1. Bushani Kalyanaraman
1. BUSHANI09 08
2. M. L. Vasanthakumari
1. MLV04 06
1. MLV33 6
3. S. Kalyanaraman
1. SK01 06
1. SK22 10

Example 2:

Aanayampatti Ganeshan : Jalatharangam
=====================================
AG01
----
01-RaghunAyaka-Hamsadhwani-T.mp3
02-Pancharathnam-Sadhinchene-Aarabhi-T.mp3
03-Tatvameruga-Garudadhwani-T.mp3
04-Pakkala Nilabadi-Karaharapriya-T.mp3
05-Bhagyada Lakshmi-Madhyamavathi-PD.mp3
06-Englishnote-X-X.mp3
Anayampatti Sri Ganashan.txt
index.html

AG02
----
1-raghunayaka-hamsadwani-T.mp3
2-Saraswathi NamOsthuthE-Saraswathi-GNB.mp3
3-Sevikka Vendumayya-Andholika-MT.mp3
4-Kripaya Palaya-Charukesi-ST.mp3
5-ninnayEgathienru-sumanisa ranjani-B.mp3
6-Manasa Sancharare-Sama-SB.mp3
8-concert_details.txt
index.html



Raman

[ranjanimalavi]

The example 1 didn't come out as formatted.

Its generated using python and it can be dumped in sqlite3/mysql tables and can be used for querying.

Raman

[vasanthakokilam]

Raman's post gives me the segue to indulge in some geek-speak

Here is a logical database design. The crux of the design is to link three entities: Songs, Musicians and Rasikas

Table Song( id, starting words, raga, thala, composer, free_form_notes )
Table Musician( id, name, free_form_notes )
Table Where_Heard ( where_heard_id, where_heard, where_heard_details )

• where_heard : commercial_recording, concert_recording, live_public_concert, live_chamber_concert ( we need to come up with the list of enumerations to cover all the possibilities )
• where_heard_details: free form further info on where it was heard like commercial cd details, or where the live concert was etc.

Table Song_Musician_Where_Heard_Crossref( cross_ref_id, song_id, musician_id, where_heard_id, instrument, submitter_name, free_form_notes )

• song_id, musician_id, where_heard_id are the cross reference keys to the respective tables
• instrument is: vocal, violin, flute, veena etc.
• submitter_name is the name of the person reporting the cross reference. Many submitters can submit the same song instance.
• free_form_notes: some textual notes elaborating on where_heard. details of the commercial recording or where the concert was etc.

Song_Musician_Where_Heard_Crossref is the pay-off table which links songs, musicians and rasikas.

Now, getting way deep in the weeds of turf level details:

Given the notorious problem of transliterating the starting lyrics in different ways, before inserting a new entry into the songs table, one has to make sure it is not already entered. And make an effort to normalize the transliteration. Though there may be some disagreements on that, more than getting it absolutely correct or wasting time on debates about that, it is critical that the data maintainer puts his/her foot down and picks one transliteration. It is one instance where being an authoritarian helps big time. Otherwise it will cause data mayhem and havoc. One can always add alternate transliterations in the 'free_form_notes' column. Same with the musician's name.

In spite of that, if there are duplicates, we can always merge them later and simply adjust the xref table. That is one of the advantages of having this cross reference table.

It is possible the same musician has played or sung the same song on multiple instruments. And the same combination may be submitted by different people, and the same person may have heard it in two different contexts etc. To accommodate all that, {song_id, musician_id, where_heard_id, instrument, submitter_name} is a composite key of the cross reference table. cross_ref_id is a redundant and equilvalent key to that pentuplet which also acts as a primary key of the cross_ref table.

Raman, E_S: if you are willing, you can take the above logical design as a reference, make any implementation level modifications and create the database. Then take the data dump from members here and start populating the database. If you have the facilities, you can put up that database at a web server with a simple query page for people to check out the uploaded data and possibly run some simple but interesting queries.

The data providers basically need to provide the following info.

• song starting words,
• raga,
• thala ( if not known, it may be ok but we need to make sure there are no two songs with the same starting lyrics, raga and composer.. probably extremely rare )
• composer,
• "free form notes about the song, if any",
• musician name,
• instrument,
• where_heard,
• "free form notes on where heard, if any",
• submitter_name_or_initials

Regarding the format for data submission, we will kiss (keep it simple and stupid) and make up a scheme, like comma separated values for each item.

The design above is more a stream of consciousness thing, so I may have missed some key aspects of the problem. Comments and modifications to the logical design are most welcome.

[veeyens3]

This is a very laudable project and will be of immense use to researchers on Carnatic Music. But with due respects and apologies to the great masters of yesteryear, I wish to make one observation They were not exposed to so many songs.. Their repertoire was nothing compared to modern day artists. Reasons They were not exposed to so many krithis as later day artists. There were no recorded music, or archives as available today. They had to be content with oral transmission from others in the locality whereas the current students have the whole world material at their disposal In 1932, a prominent vidwan gave a concert in Kumbakonam in connection with the Upanayanam of my cousin. As a cousin of that day's hero I too was given a new shirt along with what was known in those days, a propelling pencil, a status symbol for students of those days .To test the new toy, I sat down for the entire concert and wrote down the name of all the songs rendered by the artist no ragam no thalam no composer etc. At the en of the day, as the shirt was new, it was carefully folded and stored. Next week, there was a marriage in Tanjore, and the same vidwan sang there also. I put on the same shirt I wore previous week in Kumbakonam and as the new found love for my latest acquisition did not wear off, I took it out along with the paper I used last week from the pocket and started writing down the songs.and to my surprise, I found the same songs were repeated in the same order It so happened that very few people who were at Kumbakonam were present in Tanjore.There were no reviews in papers and people had absolutely no idea of what happened earlier.There was another occasion when a prominent musician was asked as to why he is not singing any new songs, he replied in all humility, that God had given him a nice bungalow in a prim,e locality for the few songs he knew.There was absolutely no incentive or motivation for them to learn new songs How ever.this in no way diminishes my respect and admiration for their knowledge and dedication
Compared to this the present day artists are to face a different scenario. For example, sitting in my chair, I am made aware of all the songs he sang in various cities of U.S.A within a few hours and if the artist does not change his menu, he gets an adverse review which directly affects his reputation and income also. He has to be on the move always and learn more and more new krithis, which is fortunately available as the number of new vagyeyakaras have increased exponentialy. The manthra seems to be “Learn or perish”

[mohan]

See the Raga Database at http://www.depauw.edu/library/musiclib/RagaDatabase/
(link at the top of the page)

It is the result of fieldwork by a team from DePauw University (USA) during the 2003/04 Madras music season. The analysis is quite interesting

[Enna_Solven]

Raman, E_S: if you are willing, you can take the above logical design as a reference, make any implementation level modifications and create the database. Then take the data dump from members here and start populating the database. If you have the facilities, you can put up that database at a web server with a simple query page for people to check out the uploaded data and possibly run some simple but interesting queries.

vk,
I just noticed this post.

I do not have experience with any database software (not a software guy!) and I have no clue whatsoever with web tools. But I can maintain a csv file or excel (disaster?) and can read it into sqlite and query it, given my 2-3 years of tinkering it in some form.

But, the project will take off only if more people signal their willingness to report in the form that we need. (I can transform into the 'authoritarian' transliteration more or less through scripting)

[purush]

[quote="veeyens3"] 'They were not exposed to so many songs.. Their repertoire was nothing compared to modern day artists. Reasons They were not exposed to so many krithis as later day artists. '
If the musicians of the past were not exposed to so many songs, how was it transmitted to this generation? Probably they confined themselves to perform songs about which they were assured of being well received.

[srikant1987]

Yesteryear Vidwan 1 might have known 200 songs, Yesteryear Vidwan 2 180 -- say 70 in common with YV1.

Present Day Vidwan 1 and PDV2 both have access to recordings, and so access to 310 songs. They might each know about 250 songs each.

[Enna_Solven]

This logic leads to this: In about 8 (=200 years) generations going backwards, there were many more vidwans each knowing only 42 songs, assuming a transmittal amplification of 1.25x. I thinks our ancestors were better than that. Just going through all the old posts of Rasikas, we understand that some of the masters were reputed to have known many hundreds of songs.

The situation was probably much more complex than your example and my simplification of that. Some were great and knew hundreds and had many successful sishyas to pass them on in chunks. Others did not know that many but successfully passed on whatever they knew. Some other maestro came along later and absorbed all the fruits from many different trees and started a new lineage. As with all other Indian matters, unless we codify what we have, these things will become hearsay and conjecture.

It would be such a great boon if people like LGJ,TNK would write books about old masters that they performed with, leaving aside all controversial issues - for the sake of preserving our history.

[vasanthakokilam]

Couple of points to throw into the mix.

1) Artists were not singing many songs in concerts in earlier times ( Pre 1900-1920s). Concerts were mainly RTP based, with a song or two before and after. I have been curious about where and when the rest of the Trinity and other composers' songs were performed to the public? That narrative of our past seems to be a bit foggy and incomplete. If they are rarely performed, what or who were they composing them for? What is the motivation? ( I know in Thyagaraja's case people bring in spiritual reasons which stops the inquiry but we can ask the same question of other composers ).

2) The cross pollination of songs across shishya parampara were probably minimal in earlier times. Thyagaraja shisya parampara mainly learned Thyagaraja songs etc. It is even a wonder that SS's krithis with the tune have survived to reach us given the lack of strong shishya parampara for SS. MD is probably somewhere in the middle. But today, combining all the songs of Purandaradasa and Annamacharya songs being set to tunes, OVK, Trinity, GKB, Swathi Thirunal, composers of the Mysore Kingdom, Papanasam Sivan, Ambujam Krishna, current day composers like our own Arasi etc. that is a big universe from which to learn. It is mind boggling to look at a list of all composers, pre-trinity to current day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Carnatic_composers).
And there are enough resources for artists to learn them.

These three factors, few songs in a concert in earlier times, bigger set of compositions to choose from with less parochialism ( in terms of school, shishya parampara etc. ) plus the resources to learn them today, are the big difference makers in terms of the repertoire of the current day musicians and the yesteryear musicians.

Having written all this, if we come up with a histogram of songs performed today ( count of the number of times a song is performed, sorted from high number to low number ), we will still find the top 10-20 occupied by Trinity's songs and that too the well known ones and then a really long tail of other songs. If you compare the histogram of today and the 1920-1960s, the top may not look that different. The long tail may be missing from the earlier period histogram. That long tail is where we will find the difference in repertoire. I have not counted them, so this is just a speculation.