L. Shankar / L. Subramaniam
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mahakavi
>>'d go and see LS play, if the tickets weren't too expensive. Nice to see fireworks sometimes! But these Americans tend to have expensive shows!<<
nickH:
I guess you are talking about LSub performing in Chennai and that the tickets are expensive--right?
I too have attended LSub's concerts in the US and sure they are expensive here too. That is because the concerts are attended primarily by Americans. He does the whole show in the western style, except he plays the violin sitting on the floor rather than standing a la the solo violin player (e.g., Joshua Bell, the violin prodigy who made Indiana University in Bloomington proud). LSub will go backstage after the concert is over and then come back to receive a standing ovation (staged, wouldn't you say?--I feel awkward under such circumstances--it is like asking everybody to do a standing ovation. In my dictionary standing ovation must be very restricted to great legendary performers and it must be spontaneously done by a majority of people).
nickH:
I guess you are talking about LSub performing in Chennai and that the tickets are expensive--right?
I too have attended LSub's concerts in the US and sure they are expensive here too. That is because the concerts are attended primarily by Americans. He does the whole show in the western style, except he plays the violin sitting on the floor rather than standing a la the solo violin player (e.g., Joshua Bell, the violin prodigy who made Indiana University in Bloomington proud). LSub will go backstage after the concert is over and then come back to receive a standing ovation (staged, wouldn't you say?--I feel awkward under such circumstances--it is like asking everybody to do a standing ovation. In my dictionary standing ovation must be very restricted to great legendary performers and it must be spontaneously done by a majority of people).
Last edited by mahakavi on 22 Apr 2007, 22:47, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
mahakavi,
As for standing ovations, would you believe, one comes across them in India too, nowadays. In a way, because of geographical, and sometimes social reasons, in the US or elsewhere, these elements creep in--and no harm done. Example: our very CM oriented children are american in many of their ways and that does not stop them from liking CM, taking it up to study it with enthusiasm and even master it. Even among some native older indians, greetings like 'Hi', shaking of hands, hugging etc have become every day expressions.
What is important here is that whatever is delivered as serious CM music better be just that. and the reasonable price tag that goes with it. Even that is fine, if that is what is expected of them by their fans. Only, don't call it mainstream CM. That's all...
As for standing ovations, would you believe, one comes across them in India too, nowadays. In a way, because of geographical, and sometimes social reasons, in the US or elsewhere, these elements creep in--and no harm done. Example: our very CM oriented children are american in many of their ways and that does not stop them from liking CM, taking it up to study it with enthusiasm and even master it. Even among some native older indians, greetings like 'Hi', shaking of hands, hugging etc have become every day expressions.
What is important here is that whatever is delivered as serious CM music better be just that. and the reasonable price tag that goes with it. Even that is fine, if that is what is expected of them by their fans. Only, don't call it mainstream CM. That's all...
Last edited by arasi on 22 Apr 2007, 21:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I'm not certain I can tell the difference between a standing ovation and people being in a hurry to get out of the hall any longer.
Some such seems to happen at most concerts these days...
As a side issue... I hate being asked/told to applaud. "Please give another big hand to....," belongs to comedy shows, not carnatic, or any other serious type of, music!
I have no idea how much an LS concert would be in Chennai --- but I have noticed that performances by some of the more 'international' musicians seem to be rather more expensive than our usual sabha offerings.
Of course, we could argue that carnatic musicians are worth considerably more than they get paid, and should be paid more....
I regret that I never have forgiven LS for simply not turning up at a London performance some years back. Such behaviour could easily bankrupt a presenter who has hired one of London's largest and most prestigious concert venues, quite apart from the fact that the announcement must have been one of the most unpleasant few minutes of his life.
Some such seems to happen at most concerts these days...
As a side issue... I hate being asked/told to applaud. "Please give another big hand to....," belongs to comedy shows, not carnatic, or any other serious type of, music!
I have no idea how much an LS concert would be in Chennai --- but I have noticed that performances by some of the more 'international' musicians seem to be rather more expensive than our usual sabha offerings.
Of course, we could argue that carnatic musicians are worth considerably more than they get paid, and should be paid more....
I regret that I never have forgiven LS for simply not turning up at a London performance some years back. Such behaviour could easily bankrupt a presenter who has hired one of London's largest and most prestigious concert venues, quite apart from the fact that the announcement must have been one of the most unpleasant few minutes of his life.
Last edited by Guest on 23 Apr 2007, 17:48, edited 1 time in total.
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thinker225
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 16:43
@Nick,
You seem to be bringing in non-musical arguments like excessive "standing-ovations", prompted applause, absenteeism, and such like, not one of which is a barometer to guage good music. It would be much better if you start bringing in musical arguments here.
@someone(I can't remember his name)
There is enough music of L Shankar and L Subramaniam to hear. Just that you won't find it at most music shops, because they are not for the masses and hence not "popular".
@someone else(I can't again remember his name)
"L Subramaniam brings in only melancholy in his compositions." or so was his assertion. Not true! Have you heard Bahudari or Mohanam(in Samarpanam)? Have you heard Journey 1, Violin Legends with Stephanne Grapelli and Yehudi Menuhin? Even that small Alapanai in Mohanam is as soulful and as "happy" as one can get. Let us suppose for the sake of argument that he depicts only melancholy in his Raga renditions. So what ! Good music is good music.
General observation -> I'm beginning to get a feeling that many in this thread haven't heard enough of L.Sub and L.Shankar.
I conclude -> Good Music(as that of L bro's) is only for the gifted. If you can't appreciate it, too bad.
You seem to be bringing in non-musical arguments like excessive "standing-ovations", prompted applause, absenteeism, and such like, not one of which is a barometer to guage good music. It would be much better if you start bringing in musical arguments here.
@someone(I can't remember his name)
There is enough music of L Shankar and L Subramaniam to hear. Just that you won't find it at most music shops, because they are not for the masses and hence not "popular".
@someone else(I can't again remember his name)
"L Subramaniam brings in only melancholy in his compositions." or so was his assertion. Not true! Have you heard Bahudari or Mohanam(in Samarpanam)? Have you heard Journey 1, Violin Legends with Stephanne Grapelli and Yehudi Menuhin? Even that small Alapanai in Mohanam is as soulful and as "happy" as one can get. Let us suppose for the sake of argument that he depicts only melancholy in his Raga renditions. So what ! Good music is good music.
General observation -> I'm beginning to get a feeling that many in this thread haven't heard enough of L.Sub and L.Shankar.
I conclude -> Good Music(as that of L bro's) is only for the gifted. If you can't appreciate it, too bad.
Last edited by thinker225 on 01 May 2007, 22:15, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
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coolkarni
When I say , appreciation of the L Brothers music suffers from a shortage of recordings , I did not mean Commercial recordings.They can never be a great guide for appreciating an artist.
What I had in mind was something very unique to Violin artists and our image of them.In many ways Violin exponents are twice blessed.
By the fact that they can show their talent in solos as well as while accompanying.A very large part of my mental image of the viloinists owes its details to the inputs from concerts where they accompany , rather than in solos.
Assessment of GJR Krishnans music -for example-would be 100 times more accurate , if Only I could hear him as an accompanist, often.
This is what hampers a true assessment of a violinist , more than issues of sahitya or etc etc.
Having said this much , the L Brothers technique of elaboration is something that comes in my way of falling in love with their music without reservations. (and ofcourse I dont consider myself gifted or fully evolved)
That technique impacts on my senses , more than the content of the raga or krithi.
A bit like my childhood friend -Manja- who had a great proficiency to play offside strokes (Venkatpv - if you could excuse me here).
His technique was built on the fact that we practised on a strip of land that had wide open spaces to the right , but , one shot on the leg side would mean a half an hour search for the ball in the Temple Garden - precious 30 minutes lost before night would approach.
The result was that even on large open grounds , where matches were played, this chap would move away far to the leg side and hit balls on the leg stump with exquiste late cuts.
Exquisite yes indeed.But not , if one considers that a top class batsman has atleast two different shots for each ball.
To my simple mind , the fun is cut short as soon as the speed picks up and those Doppler effects start pounding me.
But then as someone said , " The woods would be silent if only a few birds sang , the ones that sang best "
Sd Someonelse.no 1
What I had in mind was something very unique to Violin artists and our image of them.In many ways Violin exponents are twice blessed.
By the fact that they can show their talent in solos as well as while accompanying.A very large part of my mental image of the viloinists owes its details to the inputs from concerts where they accompany , rather than in solos.
Assessment of GJR Krishnans music -for example-would be 100 times more accurate , if Only I could hear him as an accompanist, often.
This is what hampers a true assessment of a violinist , more than issues of sahitya or etc etc.
Having said this much , the L Brothers technique of elaboration is something that comes in my way of falling in love with their music without reservations. (and ofcourse I dont consider myself gifted or fully evolved)
That technique impacts on my senses , more than the content of the raga or krithi.
A bit like my childhood friend -Manja- who had a great proficiency to play offside strokes (Venkatpv - if you could excuse me here).
His technique was built on the fact that we practised on a strip of land that had wide open spaces to the right , but , one shot on the leg side would mean a half an hour search for the ball in the Temple Garden - precious 30 minutes lost before night would approach.
The result was that even on large open grounds , where matches were played, this chap would move away far to the leg side and hit balls on the leg stump with exquiste late cuts.
Exquisite yes indeed.But not , if one considers that a top class batsman has atleast two different shots for each ball.
To my simple mind , the fun is cut short as soon as the speed picks up and those Doppler effects start pounding me.
But then as someone said , " The woods would be silent if only a few birds sang , the ones that sang best "
Sd Someonelse.no 1
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Sam Swaminathan
- Posts: 846
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 08:45
Coolji....fantastic anology....just could not stop laughing !!! My two cents worth both as a rasika and a violinist.....L Sub....nothing to write home about... there are hundred other violinists who can match him when it comes to pure traditional carnatic offering...but would say this....the brothers are good and they have wonderful knowledge and they have certainly made their mark in the music world.
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coolkarni
For the records sake I have a great liking for
..L Sankars RTP in Sankarabharanam ,
..The first half of the album-RTP in Abheri
..great moments in L Subs album with Menuhin
and that
..unforgettable "Geetharthamu " concert of MDR with
L Subramaniam.
And Ofcourse I often use L Subs Revathi to connect myself with the world around me on a cool early morning.
..L Sankars RTP in Sankarabharanam ,
..The first half of the album-RTP in Abheri
..great moments in L Subs album with Menuhin
and that
..unforgettable "Geetharthamu " concert of MDR with
L Subramaniam.
And Ofcourse I often use L Subs Revathi to connect myself with the world around me on a cool early morning.
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nayaki
- Posts: 7
- Joined: 28 May 2006, 15:10
Nice discussion. Personally, I was drawn into carnatic music from heavy metal only because of L Shankar's Kaapi in 'Soul Searcher'. If anybody has doubts about him being proficient in carnatic music, please buy this album. I promise it wont go to waste.
Beyond a point we have to give an artist his well deserved freedom to do and explore music the way he pleases. After all, he owns his art, doesnt he?
Beyond a point we have to give an artist his well deserved freedom to do and explore music the way he pleases. After all, he owns his art, doesnt he?
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thinker225
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 16:43
@ Nayaki
"Beyond a point we have to give an artist his well deserved freedom to do and explore music the way he pleases. After all, he owns his art, doesn't he?"
Spot on ! You couldn't be more right! Spoke my heart out. He(the artist) owns his art. Period. Yeah Soul Searcher is one of my favorites. Especially his Ragam in Kapi has rare Sangathi's. One of them almost comes to mind in a flash. I haven't heard anyone do a Kapi that way ! Musically elevating... The Pallavi is set in a nice 6 and 3/4 beats Talam dedicated to his mother L.Seethalakshmi.
@ Cool
Looks like when the speed kicks up the discernibility of notes for an untrained(in the realm of L Shankar/ L Sub music) ear becomes difficult. So I can understand your viewpoint.
"Beyond a point we have to give an artist his well deserved freedom to do and explore music the way he pleases. After all, he owns his art, doesn't he?"
Spot on ! You couldn't be more right! Spoke my heart out. He(the artist) owns his art. Period. Yeah Soul Searcher is one of my favorites. Especially his Ragam in Kapi has rare Sangathi's. One of them almost comes to mind in a flash. I haven't heard anyone do a Kapi that way ! Musically elevating... The Pallavi is set in a nice 6 and 3/4 beats Talam dedicated to his mother L.Seethalakshmi.
@ Cool
Looks like when the speed kicks up the discernibility of notes for an untrained(in the realm of L Shankar/ L Sub music) ear becomes difficult. So I can understand your viewpoint.
Last edited by thinker225 on 02 May 2007, 19:10, edited 1 time in total.
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vijayagopal
- Posts: 88
- Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:53
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coolkarni
http://www.sendspace.com/file/z2okoh
http://www.sendspace.com/file/3he46s
Vijaygopal- Let me know if you felt like clapping hard for these.
I feel like I am drugged , everytime I hear these favourites of mine.I have to make an effort to re-connect all my limbs together.
BTW is the Kalyanraman concert with LV -K Mani well known with you all ?The one with grand Mokshamu and Mathangi-Ramapriya
I can put up the juiciest parts.LV sizzles here.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/3he46s
Vijaygopal- Let me know if you felt like clapping hard for these.
I feel like I am drugged , everytime I hear these favourites of mine.I have to make an effort to re-connect all my limbs together.
BTW is the Kalyanraman concert with LV -K Mani well known with you all ?The one with grand Mokshamu and Mathangi-Ramapriya
I can put up the juiciest parts.LV sizzles here.
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coolkarni
My problems continue at the other end of the spectrum , too.Looks like when the speed kicks up the discernibility of notes for an untrained(in the realm of L Shankar/ L Sub music) ear becomes difficult
In one of the RTP renderings by Dwaram in Vardhini, things get slower and slower and slower.
And I have to hold on to the arms of my chair for fear of the Raga falling of a pedstal .Before he gives it the slightest of momentum.
But you are right about the training.I have a long way to go !!
Miles to go , before I....
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rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
A couple of comments:
And to believe that one has to evolve to either like or dislike something is both simplistically naive and arrogant - tastes are individual and owned by the listener, as much as the artist owns their music - but unlike the artist, the listener does not have to sell anything. One can always claim that a true artist doesn't 'sell'. The only people who are not 'selling' are the ones who sing/play in their mandirs and bathrooms. I think anyone who ascends a dais is 'selling'....and there will be buyers for everything...
Finally, we can also claim that listeners on this forum are 'selling' their views. That is also true - so everyone can hawk their views - hopefully, it will be done in a cultured manner with no innuendos or put downs.....
coolkarni wrote:But you are right about the training.I have a long way to go !!
Miles to go , before I....
Kji to take your analogy further, if only the tAnsEns' were allowed to listen to music or express their views, it would be a sUnA forum/audience indeed!coolkarni wrote:But then as someone said , " The woods would be silent if only a few birds sang , the ones that sang best "
Sd Someonelse.no 1
Absolutely: No one questions whether an artist owns their art - the good and the bad is theirs, and theirs alone..the only question is how successful are they in selling it...and to whom - just a niche market or to the general consumer? This becomes all the more special because CM in general caters to a niche market, and to cater to a niche among the niche is .......Beyond a point we have to give an artist his well deserved freedom to do and explore music the way he pleases. After all, he owns his art, doesn't he?
And to believe that one has to evolve to either like or dislike something is both simplistically naive and arrogant - tastes are individual and owned by the listener, as much as the artist owns their music - but unlike the artist, the listener does not have to sell anything. One can always claim that a true artist doesn't 'sell'. The only people who are not 'selling' are the ones who sing/play in their mandirs and bathrooms. I think anyone who ascends a dais is 'selling'....and there will be buyers for everything...
Finally, we can also claim that listeners on this forum are 'selling' their views. That is also true - so everyone can hawk their views - hopefully, it will be done in a cultured manner with no innuendos or put downs.....
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coolkarni
I would like to "Sell" two pieces of Music here - To borrow your phrase Ravi,
Pieces that I like to think of as Zen pieces in Stringed Instruments.
One is the Dwaram stuff I referred to above.The other is a fine Shudh Sarang excerpt by Randhir Roy.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/7vst4j
http://www.sendspace.com/file/npdvma
Though as a Layman I am inclined to believe that it is very very difficult to play flawlessly in the lower speeds.What do the Experts / Practitioners think ?
Pieces that I like to think of as Zen pieces in Stringed Instruments.
One is the Dwaram stuff I referred to above.The other is a fine Shudh Sarang excerpt by Randhir Roy.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/7vst4j
http://www.sendspace.com/file/npdvma
Though as a Layman I am inclined to believe that it is very very difficult to play flawlessly in the lower speeds.What do the Experts / Practitioners think ?
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vijayagopal
- Posts: 88
- Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:53
Coolkarni Sir!
Thanks for giving me an exercise.
I am a slow man. I will take time but will surely do what I am expected to do.
There is nothing like good music or bad music, i believe. Simply because I don't like, it can not be bad,I am aware. It is only the matter of matching the tastes.
Manodharma can not be simplified to a level, where you will like it.
So is the style.
When I commented about the violin brothers I had their new experiments with ragas and compositions without lyrics in them.
All India Radio used to have Vadya vrindas.
Does such music go well in a concert?
May be yes! I dont know.
Over the years, the style of concerts and presentations has changed a lot.
Change, if adds any value is always welcome.
Change for it's own sake is a question.
I wanted learned people to lead me in this regard.
Thanks.
Thanks for giving me an exercise.
I am a slow man. I will take time but will surely do what I am expected to do.
There is nothing like good music or bad music, i believe. Simply because I don't like, it can not be bad,I am aware. It is only the matter of matching the tastes.
Manodharma can not be simplified to a level, where you will like it.
So is the style.
When I commented about the violin brothers I had their new experiments with ragas and compositions without lyrics in them.
All India Radio used to have Vadya vrindas.
Does such music go well in a concert?
May be yes! I dont know.
Over the years, the style of concerts and presentations has changed a lot.
Change, if adds any value is always welcome.
Change for it's own sake is a question.
I wanted learned people to lead me in this regard.
Thanks.
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coolkarni
VijayagopalIn formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat; but is the evolution of real knowledge. It marks the first step towards victory. This is one great reason for utmost tolerance of variety of opinion. A clash of doctrines is an opportunity-not a disaster
Source..Unkown
All of us are leading.
And are being led.
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thinker225
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- Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 16:43
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jayaram
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vasanthakokilam
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vijayagopal
- Posts: 88
- Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:53
Sri Coolkarniji,
I never doubted the artistry of the brothers Kumaresh and Ganesh.
Thanks for the excellent pieces.
I have heard them live also many times without clapping harder.
I am only thinking about the unnecessary speed.
The recent Jaya TV performance was to me very dull.
They claimed it a novelty.
Let me be patient and listen to all kinds of people.
There were times when I never liked MSG.
That is my fault. Not the artist's!!
I never doubted the artistry of the brothers Kumaresh and Ganesh.
Thanks for the excellent pieces.
I have heard them live also many times without clapping harder.
I am only thinking about the unnecessary speed.
The recent Jaya TV performance was to me very dull.
They claimed it a novelty.
Let me be patient and listen to all kinds of people.
There were times when I never liked MSG.
That is my fault. Not the artist's!!
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Sam Swaminathan
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- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 08:45
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thinker225
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 16:43
The eldest brother of Dr.L.Shankar and Dr.L.Subramaniam and erstwhile member of the violin trio, L Vaidyanathan is no more. He was more popular for his haunting track in "Malgudi Days". He was once part of the high octane violin trio himself with the late Palghat Mani Iyer as the accompanist on the mridangam.
God Bless his Soul !
http://www.hindu.com/2007/05/20/stories ... 071000.htm
God Bless his Soul !
http://www.hindu.com/2007/05/20/stories ... 071000.htm
Last edited by thinker225 on 20 May 2007, 08:36, edited 1 time in total.
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ramabhad
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 18 Feb 2011, 05:50
Re: L. Shankar / L. Subramaniam
I have to say that as pointed out, L. Shankar seems to have something special. I had heard his accompaniments to Sri. Semmangudi and the Violin Trio concerts, and they were good. But what floored me was his Savithri raga double violin recording (Ananda Natamadum Thillai Shankara) from 1981. After hearing that piece, I think I can safely say that I have not heard such a beautiful performance in a long time. I think he is one of the truly creative musicians, and I am sad that he is not a regular on the Carnatic circuit. Maybe he needed more room for his creativity to be expressed, and the Carnatic music scene did not allow it.
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venkatakailasam
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smala
- Posts: 3223
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:55
Re: L. Shankar / L. Subramaniam
Is there a way to download the trio recordings above?
A gifted Ambi Subramaniam following his father's footsteps, has given some performances.
This remarkable solo by Ambi, I simply *love*. May not appease purists, died-in-the-wool sticklers, sedate CM types.
[One comment says .."The song is Rama Nino Nambina in Ragam Mohanam." but another says, .."its actually a composition of Dr Subramaniam 'Ennai Katharulvai' -- so no clue on what the piece is!]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHeDI5JJOo
****
A racy modern jazz-influenced type by the Father-son duo here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EfQ5_6Z70E
A gifted Ambi Subramaniam following his father's footsteps, has given some performances.
This remarkable solo by Ambi, I simply *love*. May not appease purists, died-in-the-wool sticklers, sedate CM types.
[One comment says .."The song is Rama Nino Nambina in Ragam Mohanam." but another says, .."its actually a composition of Dr Subramaniam 'Ennai Katharulvai' -- so no clue on what the piece is!]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHeDI5JJOo
****
A racy modern jazz-influenced type by the Father-son duo here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EfQ5_6Z70E
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VK RAMAN
- Posts: 5009
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Re: L. Shankar / L. Subramaniam
shyama-priya - Very melodious
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smala
- Posts: 3223
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:55
Re: L. Shankar / L. Subramaniam
Here is another duo, L. Shankar and Gingger Shankar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYVRJgYR ... 9541DE92B2
["Gingger" is Niranjani, estranged eldest daughter of L. Subramaniam]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYVRJgYR ... 9541DE92B2
["Gingger" is Niranjani, estranged eldest daughter of L. Subramaniam]
Last edited by smala on 22 Feb 2011, 03:02, edited 2 times in total.
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smala
- Posts: 3223
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:55
Re: L. Shankar / L. Subramaniam
This one, by L. Subramaniam, in an informal session, hosted by TFA (Malaysia) is lovely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xzJdo2o ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xzJdo2o ... re=related