Carnatic Music Idols (2011)- JAYA TV Programme

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 20 Feb 2011, 21:24

The winner must have been declared by now.

suma · Post by **suma** » 20 Feb 2011, 21:53

Yes, may be the local chennai people can let us know if they went for the live event. I think they give away 1st , 2nd and an audience choice award. Looking forward.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 20 Feb 2011, 22:24

Kind request to those that attended. Please post the winners/review in another thread. I would like to be genuinely surprised when I see the finals on youtube from far, far away.

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 20 Feb 2011, 22:40

I second Mahavishnu's request. Please withhold this information until all of VKailasam's uploads are done!

On a different note, are there any contestants in the finals who are trained by anybody other than the 'usual suspects'? Or are they the only 'gates to carnatic heaven'?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Feb 2011, 22:55

Let us respect the request of mahavishnu and not post the results and discussion in this thread. There are those who may want to experience the winnership after seeing the telcast (which may not be on for another two weeks). For the benefit of those Rip Wan Winkles do post the results and discussions in a separate thread titled "Results of Carnatic Idol 2011 - Jaya TV"
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15768
which I am starting as a new thread for those who cannot wait..

Pl oblige..

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 21 Feb 2011, 00:24

Many thanks, all. I am resisting the temptation to view the new thread!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Feb 2011, 00:31

Perhaps Harimau can help you with a pep-talk

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 21 Feb 2011, 01:20

I thought the judges did a fantastic job this time round. Also, clearly the show has gained a lot of traction, so tons of hoopla around the event itself. Good for carnatic music. Hope the show continues, and remains a meritocracy....kudos to Jaya TV....

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 21 Feb 2011, 03:01

CML: If I need psychiatric help, I would come to you first

However, I don't want to be cured of my addiction to Carnatic music (or this forum, for now).

Sri Kailasam: I hope we can count on your continued generosity in sharing these videos on youtube.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Feb 2011, 05:30

I agree, We are very grateful to the services of vkailasam. Thank you from all of us!

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 21 Feb 2011, 09:47

21-02-2011- now available in my channel at
http://www.youtube.com/user/vkailasam
venkatakailasam

squims · Post by **squims** » 21 Feb 2011, 13:17

The host is getting more and more irritating in each episode. His little 'talks' with the rejected contestants get on my nerves. Why does he do it? He doesn't seem to have any knowledge of CM, and his advice is baseless. The judges have given their opinion and that should be it. I have no idea why this man tries to cap it all off with his own remarks about them.

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 21 Feb 2011, 17:59

very true Squims. His line 'advice illa... akkarai' really did it for me! sounds like a punch dialogue from vadivelu...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Feb 2011, 22:13

The questioning is getting more interesting and complex. Kumaresh's query on kuraippu is on the dot emphasizing the need for strict laya control, incidentally showing the importance of laya in CM. His demonstration itself is quite educational. Sowmya purposely asked for harikampobhi in the tara sthayi which tripped Krishna into Kambodhi from whhich he could not recover

The lightning transition from one raga to another requires plenty of knowledge and sAdhakam . Hence the whole program is getting very educational for the future aspirants in CM. A simple 'asura saadhakam' is not enough; what is needed is becoming an inteelligeent all rounder in all aspects of raga/melody, laya and sahityam. The program is very enjoyable and I only wish all of the questionings are aired or at least made available (even commercially) on a DVD...

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 21 Feb 2011, 22:42

venkatakailasam wrote:21-02-2011- now available in my channel at
http://www.youtube.com/user/vkailasam
venkatakailasam

venkatakailasam sir,

A humble request. I watch many of your videos online. (I will try to reply back to your posts if I have something meaningful to say other than merely saying thanks all the time. But please note I always say thanks and that would reach you through the ether.)

My request is that you try to increase the brightness of the videos; they are pretty dark on my monitor whereas other' youtube videos appear bright. The brightness/gamma on your TV/computer combination is not OK, I think.

Thank you.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 22 Feb 2011, 00:08

I agree, CML. Krishna (from Sydney) had some basic problems with Harikamboji and his understanding of aksharams in rupakatalam was off. I wouldn't blame it on just information loss or miscommunication. He still has a long way to go, and I wish him the best. Sowmya's student Subhashri appeared very bright, but she seems very stoic in her expressions (both musical and otherwise). So, I guess we just have Ganesh-Viswanathan left in the semis.

I also feel like we are missing out on a lot due to the liberal editing. For example, Sowmya commented on Raghavendra's Narayani ragam being so good. I wish they had aired it.

I spoke to my family in Chennai who attended the finale (but have not told me the results). They said that the finals were a long affair spanning several hours of questions and rounds. I think we will have atleast a week of episodes coming from it.

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 22 Feb 2011, 07:15

Sowmya's student Subhashri appeared very bright, but she seems very stoic in her expressions (both musical and otherwise)

Indeed, she was very bright, the Chakravaham and Madhyamavathi ragam had some excellent sangathis.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 22 Feb 2011, 08:22

Yes, Kartik. Both ragams seem to emerge really effortlessly for her. I think Subashree has serious potential. Going by her appearance, I would guess that she is very very young. I think she will acquire greater bhavam, emotive content and delivery with age. Certainly someone to look out for in future years.

mahesu · Post by **mahesu** » 22 Feb 2011, 09:30

When Violinist Kumaresh was quizzing Krishna, on a kuraippu, he was mistakenly mentioning 30 akshara instead of 30 mathirai. Though the contestant gave enough hints that there could be a mistake (he mentioned korvai for 30 akshara? or a kuraippu spanning 10 avarthanam etc), Kumaresh continued to expose his ignorance / arrogance by repeatedly telling 'aksharas', and finally (every judge) managed to confuse the contestant and made him submissive. I am not sure how this pass unedited

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 22 Feb 2011, 14:49

mahesu wrote:When Violinist Kumaresh was quizzing Krishna, on a kuraippu, he was mistakenly mentioning 30 akshara instead of 30 mathirai. Though the contestant gave enough hints that there could be a mistake (he mentioned korvai for 30 akshara? or a kuraippu spanning 10 avarthanam etc), Kumaresh continued to expose his ignorance / arrogance by repeatedly telling 'aksharas', and finally (every judge) managed to confuse the contestant and made him submissive. I am not sure how this pass unedited

That korraipu episode was indeed confusing. I was also thinking that 1 avarthanam of roopaka talam has 3 aksharams and 12 mathrais but kumaresh (or ganesh - not sure which one is which) seemed to suggest that my understanding of mathrai is infact aksharam. Sashikiran diffused the situation by asking how many in 1 beat. Definitely a bizzare audition!

Also I didn't understand what he meant by 30 aksharam korraipu maybe the laya experts can give us a definition?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Feb 2011, 17:34

There is a confusion of definition between akshara and mathra. Sometimes we argue the point on this site. What he said may have been correct according to his school and learning.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 22 Feb 2011, 19:15

What is the definition of korraipu though?
Isn't what they do for 2kalai adi talam main where they land on a note and sing 1, 1/2, 1/4 avarthanam also known as korraipu? I have also heard mridangam students talk of misra korraipu ect. Just a little confused! :$

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Feb 2011, 21:57

mahesu wrote:When Violinist Kumaresh was quizzing Krishna, on a kuraippu, he was mistakenly mentioning 30 akshara instead of 30 mathirai. Though the contestant gave enough hints that there could be a mistake (he mentioned korvai for 30 akshara? or a kuraippu spanning 10 avarthanam etc), Kumaresh continued to expose his ignorance / arrogance by repeatedly telling 'aksharas', and finally (every judge) managed to confuse the contestant and made him submissive. I am not sure how this pass unedited

Mahesu
you have an excellent point. The vocabulary used should not be confusing. Actually aksharam refers to the duration and matra is the gati or nadai. I am sure our laya specialists will agree. Rupakam has 3 aksharas per avartam as Krishna rightly pointed out and hence 30 aksharas will be 10 avarthams as he correctly pointed out. But Kumaresh actually meant matra (only on which kuraippu can be done) as Sasikiran bailed him out. At this point Krishna understood it and says one avartham o Rupakam has 12 beats (catusram). By then Kumaresh with a smirk tells him to do
One avartam in Khanda nadai 3x5 = 15
One avartam in Thisram 3x3 = 9
One in catusram (half speed) 3x2 = 6
Total = 30
( I still don't understand how this fits in with the technical definition of Kuraippu...
Perhaps VK or our laya folks can explain clearly.. )
But by now Krishna is totally confused and is lost.
The other judges should have defendedd Krishna for getting lost for no fault of his...

I am sorry to see the 'Aussie Kid' Krishna go for the fault of the judge...

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 22 Feb 2011, 22:22

After watching that clip, I was confused as well. I had a look at the archives and found this blog entry posted by Arun.
Kanakku vs. Sarvalaghu in Carnatic Music – Part 2

Arun starts part two with the following note, the emphasis is mine.

Note on terminology – matra and akshara: It has been mentioned that Carnatic Music suffers from ambiguous and thus confusing use of terminology because there is no consistent adoption of standards. I have used akshara to indicate outer division of tala cycle (so 8 aksharas per Adi tala cycle), and matra to indicate sub-division within that. This is used by many, but some authoritative experts would deem this as incorrect, and what I refer to mAtra here i.e. the inner division should be akshara. At least, for the purposes of this article, I continue to use akshara for outer division, and matra for inner division.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 22 Feb 2011, 22:43

CML, the Aussie kid would have been eliminated even without the "aksharam" terminology issue (which is a genuine one, as has been repeatedly pointed out by others). But his Harikamboji alapanai was way off; it spilled over into kamboji quite clearly almost as soon as he began. He never quite found his footing in the alapana after that. Pl refer to earlier posts in this thread about the importance of singing harikamboji from two different points of view.

To avoid such miscommunications, what we need is a notatable, standardized, proper terminology for time and its subdivisions in carnatic music (equivalent of hemi, demi, semi quavers). Otherwise there will be nothing but confusion when people of two pAtantarams exchange any views. I find Arun's taxonomy that distinguishes akshara from matra to be consistent with the way I have learned it also.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 23 Feb 2011, 00:06

I was interacting with Sri KN Shashikiran earlier today and he had the following to say about this. I am quoting, with his permission:

" It was a perfectly legitimate question to ask someone to try a khanda kuraippu for rupaka talam. 30 counts is a normal start to such a kuraipu if u take 3 rhythmic cycles u can have 6 khandam pattens after a karvai of 6 before u start. Then reduce it to two rhythmic cycles give a lead of 4 counts and do 4 khandam patterns total of 20 + 4 for the 2 rhythmic cycles. Then reduce it to one rhythmic cycle and after a lead of 2 we can do 2 khandam patterns and then 2 half cycles minus one and get +ne khandam pattern. It is a coomon practise to have kuraipus in misram for adi talam, tisram patterns for misra chapu and khandam for rupakam. So Kumaresh was right and even gave some clues as to how to approach but I didn't see the edited version so not aware wat was telecast.

I can assure with 20 top musicians judging the finals no rigging is possible ofcourse not here to defend anyone but we need to be happy this generation's talents have more positives to take just today I myself forwarded some numbers of almost 8 of the finalists for a sabha".

He also said something quite profound that I sought his permission to share on rasikas.org.

"I think because these are reality contests, most of us think that it is very tough on the contestant etc, firstly in a era of media hype everything seems magnified and when you view only edited versions, we tend to understand things in a particular context. For several years there have been competitions and exams in Carnatic music which were more grilling with more critical comments but no TV coverage and no career window for the winners. I still remember a pallavi contest where I was grilled by Chengalpet Ranganathan, Prof. TRS and R.K.Srikantan. I was asked to try chaturasra Khandam and also khanda nadai etc ...."

Thank you Sri KNS for your thoughts and clarifications on this.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Feb 2011, 02:32

The theoretical definition of korraipu is just as you guys to understand the word: reducing.

The method of reduction then has great scope. Avartanam korraipu is reduced by simple fractions: two to one to half to quarter to eighth and so on. Within that, there are misra koraipus and khanda koraipus, etc, which refer to the additional challenge of fitting, for example, seven- or five-count patterns within an eight-count structure.

There can be, for example, akshara koraipu too, reducing by one each time, although if this was just done for a simple series, with no repetition, it would probably come under yathi, rather than korraipu.

We digress... and I am now out of my depth!

... I wrote this before reading Mahavishnu's post and explanation.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Feb 2011, 04:13

mahavishnu wrote:To avoid such miscommunications, what we need is a notatable, standardized, proper terminology for time and its subdivisions in carnatic music (equivalent of hemi, demi, semi quavers). Otherwise there will be nothing but confusion when people of two pAtantarams exchange any views. I find Arun's taxonomy that distinguishes akshara from matra to be consistent with the way I have learned it also.

Absolutely. This terminology confusion has been one of our pet peeves which we have discussed here a lot. And Kumaresh probably did not even realize there is confusion there and used the only terminology that he is aware of. Arun succinctly summarized the two views.

I have not watched any of the episodes yet. I am surprised to hear the level of deep questioning on matters that apply to a senior level concert practice. I wonder how much emphasis is given for these kinds of concert oriented knowledge compared to the quality of singing, voice control and bhAvam.etc.

These topics are definitely important for the senior level concert musician in the right context.
If overdone in these types of shows, I fear that the general public may go away with the impression that CM is too much riddled with senseless jargon and balderdash. It already suffers that wrong perception to some extent.

As a general principle, as with everything, Inspiration lets you in, perspiration lets you persevere....and stay in the game. These intellectual level questioning may come across as too much perspiration dwarfing any inspiration kids may get.

It may not necessarily turn people away from listening to CM. But will it inspire kids to learn CM? With the main focus being art music, high culture and more than anything, a lot of fun.... With these thoughts, I will watch the episodes later with an open mind.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Feb 2011, 04:22

For an authoritative treatment on koraippu, refer to this thread: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 17#p149317 . Diagram is mine but the content came from the knowledgeable folks, so I can boldly declare it to be authoritative.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Feb 2011, 04:52

Thanks Ramesh and many thanks to Sasikiran for the clarification. I think we have a feel for what was expectedand that is legitimate. Our Aussie kid must work hard and come back to win the title in the coming year.
Best wishes..

Vk
valid points but I think that when youngsters find that there is intellectual fun in CM they will be attracted.The present generation is more Math-wise compared to the older generation. These calculations are fairly straight forward and easily programmable and in future I won't be surprised if candidates appear with a laptop or an iphone application on stage. Even the manodharma swara pattern can be computer generated which will take the sting away from such questionings though our aesthetic enjoyment (which is physiological) will remain undiminished

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 23 Feb 2011, 05:34

cmlover wrote: The present generation is more Math-wise compared to the older generation.

Yes - If you think back to an earlier era artistes such as Madurai Mani Iyer were wholly centred around sarva laghu swaram rather than a kannaku-oriented approach. The expectation now is that artistes are well equipped with kannaku aspects of swara singing.

Personally, I feel the ocean of music is large enough to allow different approaches. Only then we will get variations and creativity in art. Otherwise, music will become stereo-typical.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 23 Feb 2011, 09:56

Just to add further to the points made by both Mohan and CML.
I think that this competition raises awareness by inspiring awe in young people. Excelling in Classical music is like going to MIT or Berkeley. Keeping the admissions standards consistently high is what motivates people to go to these places. Any drop in the rigor/intellectualism in the competition would not help to motivate the right sort of candidates towards the art. Everyone that applies to these institutions is aware of the hard work that it takes to succeed in doing "rocket science" but that is part of the allure. I sincerely don't think (and hope) that this will turn people away from the right level of
"perspiration", as VK puts it.

That said, VK makes another very important point. While the judges have been excellent at getting the candidates to think about technical details, kanakku, graha bedham, situated problem solving and improvisation, the contest has been largely mute on how the candidates should work on the other ineffable qualities that make a good musician great. This includes (as VK says) bhavam, voice control etc. Maybe this took place but was not televised?

Sri Shashikiran also told me earlier today that before the finals, all the participants got advanced training in manodharmam aspects from the two famous Sugunas and special layam training from Mannargudi Sri Easwaran. KNS said that these might have been recorded, but is not sure if these segments will eventually get broadcast.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Feb 2011, 21:28

Good point Ramesh!
let us hope the best intellectuals with a natural flair get attracted to CM as a result of these exposures. I noticed that NSG is actually addressing the learners at large than the candidates as he poses his stimulating questions and comments. At times there is a thrill and suspense like watching a CM Olympics. It is a pity we don't get to see all of the proceedings. Perhaps commercial oufits like Charsur should capitalize by recording them and make available commercially for the benefit of CM trainees as well as us Rasikas.

Incidentally pl see the comments of our Sarmaji
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 60#p189660 post #289
I am happy his innovative teaching methods are helping our star candidates like Nandini, Vishnudev..
That requires more advertisement and wider recognition by the CM teaching community..

It now looks CM for a career looks bright in future with proper help and appreciation from us Rasikas....

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 23 Feb 2011, 21:39

"Perhaps commercial oufits like Charsur should capitalize by recording them and make available commercially for the benefit of CM trainees as well as us Rasikas."

I do not agree with this.
Even the small bits what we get now will not be available for us as they will invoke copyright rules .

venkatakailasam

arunsri · Post by **arunsri** » 24 Feb 2011, 11:37

Yes, today mornings telecast involved the session with Smt. varadachary and Sri. Eeshwaran. It was enlightening.
Arun

squims · Post by **squims** » 24 Feb 2011, 16:42

Really enjoyed today's episode. Especially the sessions with Mannargudi Easwaran mama. Always a pleasure to see him!

suma · Post by **suma** » 24 Feb 2011, 20:08

Today's telecast was very educational. Wish they showed the entire training session rather than bits and pieces.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 24 Feb 2011, 22:14

I too wish that they had broadcast the entire segment, and more of Smt Neela Ramgopal. It is good to see Nandhini back in the game. I think it was a mistake to vote her out in the first place...

Mannargudi Easwaran is a very inspiring teacher!

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 25 Feb 2011, 00:15

VK Sir.....any further videos posted after your post #211? Sorry being pushy, just eager to see how the competition progressing....thank you. Regards..Sam

squims · Post by **squims** » 25 Feb 2011, 01:11

VK sir is promptly posting the episodes within a few hours of their telecast everyday. So there will be new episodes online every day except on weekends.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 25 Feb 2011, 02:03

Sam: you have to watch episode 19B.
Hope all is well in NZ, with the earthquake and all. Prayers and best wishes.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 25 Feb 2011, 10:20

Shri. Sam Swaminathan

Uploads upto 25-02-2011 are available. Check with http://www.youtube.com/user/vkailasam

venkatakailasam

squims · Post by **squims** » 25 Feb 2011, 10:58

Ah! Looks like TNS was also among the panel of judges for the finals! Looking forward to it!

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 25 Feb 2011, 19:31

onnu thalli, rendu thalli, 5+6=11, 4+7=11, arudi... I have to be born again to understand thAlam

Suguna madam said thAnam becoming Da .a. a. a. ha nam (dahanam) should be avoided! I have heard established musicians saying thanam this way.

squims · Post by **squims** » 25 Feb 2011, 22:42

Suguna madam said thAnam becoming Da .a. a. a. ha nam (dahanam) should be avoided! I have heard established musicians saying thanam this way.

Yes, everyone sings that. I recently posted in this thread: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15623 about my opinions on things like this.
Let me quote the text here for easy reference.
"The taanam was highly enjoyable, but a bit more restraint would definitely be welcome. In Sanjay's excitement, phrases like 'tu to tu too du' entered the taanam. Those really irk me. Stuff like this happens with most singers now, but I just can't accept it. There's a recording of a lec dem of Vedavalli maami where she talks about the right way of singing a taanam. All current performers should definitely listen to that and try to apply those thoughts in their singing. It does make for far more interesting listening."
That recording of Vedavalli maami's is commercially available.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 25 Feb 2011, 22:59

I am also looking forward to the appearance of TNS in the finals. I can only imagine how exacting NSG's guru can be!
Squims, I only noticed him in the last few seconds of that video after your post.

BMK who was last year's chief guest did not quiz the candidates, although spoke very well in the end.

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 26 Feb 2011, 08:02

VK sir...thank you for the upload....as for Easwaran imparting knowledge, my memory went back to the days when he used to teach me....2 aksharam thalli, eduppu, koraipu etc etc. Thank God, in this show, he is not having his "kallu/pullu" bag in front of him. In my days, any mistakes after a painstaking teaching session, used to be rewarded with a flying "pullu" thrown at me with the speed of a pace bowler, which he was in a cricketing field!!

Just a matter of interest, in his younger days, he was phenominal swing bowler, both ways!!

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 26 Feb 2011, 22:06

Sam: I'm just glad he didn't throw the "kallu"

I love the way Sri Easwaran encourages such young people, even when he accompanies them in concerts.

I can't wait for the finals. Given the training sessions, it looks like a lot of pallavi and laya-oriented questions can be expected.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 28 Feb 2011, 09:37

28-02-2011 is available in three parts.

Check with http://www.youtube.com/user/vkailasam

venkatakailasam

squims · Post by **squims** » 28 Feb 2011, 11:18

The pressure of performing in front of a huge audience seems to have hindered the performances a bit. I felt Karthik's Saveri was very bland. Subhasree's viruttam was very mediocre as well. Raghavendra was really good and I quite enjoyed Sangeetha's singing overall.