T.M.Krishna:1 - N.Ram:0

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Mar 2011, 09:44

Interesting op-ed piece in Friday's Hindu.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 507049.ece

TMK makes some excellent points and N.Ram's knee jerk response is mostly ad-hominem while falling over himself rushing to the support of his woefully ill-equipped staff of music critics. You would think that with the atrocious amounts that they charge for FREE "All are Welcome" concert announcements, they would be able to hire a couple of editors who can go over the reviews carefully and correct the glaring errors there.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 05 Mar 2011, 09:49

Mods, could you pl merge this with the ongoing discussion in the SVK thread?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Mar 2011, 10:05

Please don't. This is not about SVK at all and is purely about the exchange. I had no idea this was being discussed there but will check now.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 Mar 2011, 10:51

sureshvv wrote:You would think that with the atrocious amounts that they charge for FREE "All or Welcome" concert announcements, they would be able to hire a couple of editors who can go over the reviews carefully and correct the glaring errors there.

I never thought of it from this point of view! :$

However, "All or welcome" may indeed bring an extra line and add to the publicity costs.

:devil:

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Mar 2011, 11:42

I didn't know they charged for those announcements. I suppose it was naive of me to think that they wouldn't --- but, as The Hindu does seem to have a certain dedication to classical cultural, I rather think they shouldn't, or the charge should be nominal.

As commented previously, whatever differences I may have expressed with TMKs various writings in the past, on this occasion it seems to me that he is being quite reasonable and that N Ram is the thin-skinned one.

Letters page, however, seems to be very much on the side of N Ram.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Mar 2011, 11:53

Nick H wrote:I didn't know they charged for those announcements. I suppose it was naive of me to think that they wouldn't --- but, as The Hindu does seem to have a certain dedication to classical cultural, I rather think they shouldn't, or the charge should be nominal.

The charges are hefty and may approach the individual remuneration paid to a performing artiste and in some cases even exceed it. For a non-ticketed charitable event I think this is grossly out-of-proportion. Many organizations such as the TTD don't even bother to list their concerts anymore on the Hindu entertainment section. Hope they change their curmudgeonly ways and not make money on the back of charitable efforts.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Mar 2011, 19:11

Goodness, I never knew --- and I am disappointed. Not least because there must be many concerts that I never know about.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 06 Mar 2011, 00:42

sureshvv wrote: The charges are hefty and may approach the individual remuneration paid to a performing artiste and in some cases even exceed it. For a non-ticketed charitable event I think this is grossly out-of-proportion. Many organizations such as the TTD don't even bother to list their concerts anymore on the Hindu entertainment section. Hope they change their curmudgeonly ways and not make money on the back of charitable efforts.

In this day and age, I wish there was a central website where all organizations can post their concerts, free or otherwise, in some clear and searchable format. rasikas.org itself should and could take this up. Approx once a year, I am in India for a week on business, and have great difficulty finding out what concerts are going on ..

- Sreenadh

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 06 Mar 2011, 08:47

Sreenadh,

(a) Organizations are already free to post about their concerts on rasikas.org -- and some of them do too. There is some measure of searching capability available.

(b) Clearly, we need a website more popular than rasikas.org for this concert-info thing. So, the website itself will need some publicity, at least initially. Who will pay for it?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 06 Mar 2011, 10:11

Sadly N.Ram's response also exhibits a lack of basic reading comprehension skills. While TMK clearly says "No amount of guidelines will help unless the right people are found", a good part of the response is spent quoting a verbose Para 10 of the Guidelines (sic).

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Mar 2011, 15:55

There are guidelines. What more can you ask? Any criticism can be countered with a wave of the guidelines!

Now you know exactly how much credence to give to all this ISO9000-and-something certification that companies like to flaunt in their advertising, as if it guarantees anything at all!

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 06 Mar 2011, 20:58

Isn't there a forum member here with a good website for concerts already? Maybe all we need to do is bring more publicity/support so that he can continue to grow and expand his site.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Mar 2011, 04:07

Yes, Ram's Chennai Listings.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Mar 2011, 05:07

Yes, Ram's blog will work. And that is a great start.

And one more thing.

From what I observed in Chennai, cell phones are dime-a-dozen but internet connections are still not that prevalent and it is still a big deal to get connected, surf to a web site etc.. So we need a way to make this data available through cell phones and land line phones. There are two choices.

1. SMS - Send an SMS to a number and it will reply back with concert listings from Ram's blog. I like the ease of use of this method and the wide reach.

2. Phone calls. Make a phone call and have the system have the system read out today's concerts using Text to Speech ( and optionally tomorrow's concerts ).

But a very cheap and low tech alternative that is implementable right away is to have these 'for free' concert organizers to leave a voice mail. Others can simply call to listen to the messages. This works since the volume of activity is not that high. ( And inbound calls to cell phones are free in India. There are definitely better ways to do this instead of using voice mail, like how the movie theaters do it.

No matter what method is used, the important thing is execution. The listing has to be kept alive and up to date, correct and complete ( as much as possible ).

All Hindu has to do is to simply publish Ram's website and/or phone numbers along with their paid listings. That is the least they can do to promote these free concerts without taking up too much of the for-pay space.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 07 Mar 2011, 11:23

and here is a funny take on this:

http://thehindureviews.tumblr.com/post/ ... -the-cards

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Mar 2011, 11:54

Oh, very good!

Sometimes we get so serious about this stuff that we quite forget that the best response of all is ... to laugh!

On the subject of concert listings, there are sites that come out of hibernation for the season and then seem to disappear again. I wish one of them would take on the task all year round.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Mar 2011, 12:47

>and here is a funny take on this:

Funny! Quite edifying last paragraph

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Mar 2011, 14:15

that employ a plethora of words that form an impediment to bridging the cultural chasm between music and reader.

I love this! Took me a minute or two to realise that it is a joke :$

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 07 Mar 2011, 16:52

"The Hindu’s reviews, that employ a plethora of words that form an impediment to bridging the cultural chasm between music and reader. "

I always hated reading the Friday concert reviews in the Hindu right from the time I was a teenager in Madras, and this quote above precisely expresses my reaction! I always thought the reviews were verbose, and conveyed absolutely nothing. I never ever got the feel for a single concert, and still remember a lot of typical adjective-laden phrases that threw light on nothing. Loved this review of the argument - he manages to get his points across with humor inspite of richly evoking that style!!

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 07 Mar 2011, 21:34

Letters to the Editor: The Hindu 07-03 2011

MUSICIANS AND CRITICS

This refers to the exchange between musician T.M. Krishna and N. Ram, Editor-in-Chief of The Hindu (March 4) . A music critic's view is a reflection of his/her liking of a particular presentation, pattern and style, which is very subjective. In publishing such reviews, the media help an artist receive specialist feedback.

I wish to share my experience as a rasika and a music organiser in the U.S. Many in the audience expect sukhaanubhava and soukiyam (solace, peace) when they leave the venue. It takes years of study and in-depth knowledge for any listener of Carnatic music to understand a critic's point of view about an artist and his/her performance. Every musician should spend a few minutes to explain to the audience what he is about to sing, what it means and what one should expect.

Ved Sarvotham,

Bangalore

A difference of opinion between critics and musicians has always existed. At the same time, one cannot deny the positive contribution made by a good critic to classical music. While The Hindu is doing a great job of publishing good music reviews, I must point out one aspect that requires improvement — the reference to accompanying artists. In most reviews, they receive a one-liner that sometimes even omits their names.

P.V. Subramaniam,

Mumbai

The Hindu is the only newspaper that dedicates space for the cause of music week after week. However I agree with Mr. Krishna that most critics are more of reporters. They merely give a list of songs and composers. What is the need to do this? They can instead review the level of the artist's performance. The review of a concert includes the performance of accompanists too. Often what we see is the standard phrase “the accompaniment was adequate.”

K. Ravichandran,

Chennai

Obviously, no musician or sabha will relish robust or harsh criticism. It does less harm to established musicians but negative criticism does have an impact on the career prospects of junior musicians. This is probably the reason music critics avoid fiery criticisms. But all said, it is ultimately the rasikas who make or mar a musician, irrespective of what is written about him or her.

C.K. Parameswaran,

Chennai

While I would agree with Mr. Ram's defence of The Hindu's music critics, I also believe that there is a general lack of knowledge among many critics. Having a fairly sound knowledge of the basics of playing the mridangam, I can vouch for Mr. Krishna's views. First of all, the space given to the accompanying artists is minimal. Second, the reviews are of a very general nature, spilled with clichés without any discrimination. No reference is ever made to the varying tonal rhythmic patterns which only the mridangam can bring about.

M.S. Nagarajan,

Chennai

A general apathy most Indian dailies display towards the publication of art reviews is perhaps the reason that has given shape to the healthy exchange, in which one cannot but agree with Mr. Ram's views. That The Hindu has published Mr. Krishna's views, although they are divergent, is laudable.

Balvinder Singh,

Chandigarh

I am a great admirer of Carnatic music. I equally admire The Hindu's role over the decades in promoting classical music and other arts. I claim absolutely no knowledge of classical music but over a period of years, I have developed a liking for the art, so much so that I have become very selective in my choice of singers. With all due respect to today's crop of young artists like Mr. Krishna, I think it is wrong to expect reviewers to be experts in the field.

C.S. Sukhavanam,

Coimbatore

I had the opportunity to cover the prestigious Soorya Festival of Music held annually in Thiruvananthapuram from 2005 to 2010. Except for a few musicians (veterans and youngsters), all others want us to give them favourable reviews. They even find out our mobile phone numbers and call us. At all musical venues, I have found many commoners coming in to listen. So, when critics file their reports or reviews, they keep the layman in mind.

G. Jayakumar,

Thiruvananthapuram

Mr. Krishna's reaction to Mr. Ram's views clearly shows that artists are very sensitive, if not thin-skinned. On many instances, I have wondered how reviews help musicians since they keep performing irrespective of the reviews they receive. It is true that a good review makes an artist happy and a bad one make him or her sad.

Strictly speaking, all those who attend a concert turn critics and although they do not put down their views in writing, they talk about it to their friends and fellow listeners. That is how a musician becomes famous. Anyone who climbs on to a stage for performing will be subjected to both positive and negative comments.

O.G.K. Murthy,

Chennai

Venkatakailasam

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 07 Mar 2011, 22:02

Refer:
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14238

The discussion was about Shri Madurai TNS was being unprepared for Chetasree and was referring to a bit of paper.

A comment by Shri. SVK in The Hindu was ridiculed by most of the members. It is an apt case where comments are perverted.

venkatakailasam

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 08 Mar 2011, 15:11

The crux of the problem is general and sweeping statements- "many musicians and sabhas are thin-skinned...Our musicians and sabhas want only favorable reviews"(para 10 of the guidelines of the Hindu) and "the knowledge of the critics to day is abysmal"(T.M.Krrishna, the Maestro). Both the statements are highly emotive reactions, biased and not factual. TMk must understand that just like different caliber musicians will be there, performing, different caliber music critics also will be there. Music critic should definitely not make career breaking report/review of any up coming and struggling musicians. The highly critical/biased report or review by music critic about the popular artists, does not have any effect on the die hard fans/rasikas. Many a times, it may swell their ranks!
In the larger interest and cause of music, it is avoided. Work shops on principles and practices of music criticism, well planned and conducted for both journalists/music critics and musicians, both two important stake holders, at least twice in a year would give the desired results of the right knowledge and its application.

kalyani_ragam · Post by **kalyani_ragam** » 08 Mar 2011, 15:50

Lighter side - Anybody has watched 'History of the World' by Mel Brooks. Do see it - It illustrates how critic is born

How do you rate the reviews in this forum. Most of the reviews are too generic, does not go into specifics or technicalities:

Reviews revolve around:
We expected an rtp but we were disappointed. WHY SHOULD RTP BE SUNG IN EVERY CONCERT. LET US LEAVE THE CHOICE OF SELECTION TO THE MUSICIANS!
Kalyani ragam is not what I like. IF ONE DOES NOT LIKE THE RAGAM, IT DOES NOT MEAN THIS RAGAM SHOULD NOT BE SUNG...
Ragam was sung for x mins, tanam for y mins, swaras for z mins. we would have expected more of ragam and less of swarams so on so forth. HOW CAN ONE KEEP MEASURING THE TIME. THE REVIEWER LISTENS TO THE CONCERT OT KEEPS LOOKING AT THE WATCH.
I would rate this concert between good and excellent. Man what is the yardstick. THERE WAS SOME PERFORMANCE METER THAT WAS ESTABLISHED. CANT REMEMBER THE TECHNICAL NAME. SILLY! IT IS HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE.

Let us undertstand TMK is not an yardstick to measure the quality of reviews by Hindu or other dailies. He is an immature person with QUITE A LARGE fan following

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Mar 2011, 21:19

But... you are asking for such understanding, without, it seems, having understood the nature of a forum and the reviews that are posted here!

TMk must understand that just like different caliber musicians will be there, performing, different caliber music critics also will be there.

In the real world, yes, that's true, and I guess it will remain so. On the other hand, could not an organisation with the resources of The Hindu newspaper, which has a pool of expert Chennai rasikas to pick from, ensure some sort of professional consistency?

N Ram would probably argue by waving his guidelines in my face. It reminds me of my house engineer objecting that he had given the right measurements for something that was patently cut wrong. Measurements is one thing: cutting is another.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Mar 2011, 21:47

munirao2001: TMk must understand that just like different caliber musicians will be there, performing,
different caliber music critics also will be there.

Nick: It reminds me of my house engineer objecting that he had given the right measurements for something that was patently cut wrong. Measurements is one thing: cutting is another.

I love the above two statements. Very relevant to the current discussion and they succinctly summarize thousands of words that have been exchanged till now in both the threads on this topic. Nice!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 08 Mar 2011, 21:54

kalyani_ragam wrote:Reviews revolve around:
We expected an rtp but we were disappointed. WHY SHOULD RTP BE SUNG IN EVERY CONCERT. LET US LEAVE THE CHOICE OF SELECTION TO THE MUSICIANS!
Kalyani ragam is not what I like. IF ONE DOES NOT LIKE THE RAGAM, IT DOES NOT MEAN THIS RAGAM SHOULD NOT BE SUNG...
Ragam was sung for x mins, tanam for y mins, swaras for z mins. we would have expected more of ragam and less of swarams so on so forth. HOW CAN ONE KEEP MEASURING THE TIME. THE REVIEWER LISTENS TO THE CONCERT OT KEEPS LOOKING AT THE WATCH.
I would rate this concert between good and excellent. Man what is the yardstick. THERE WAS SOME PERFORMANCE METER THAT WAS ESTABLISHED. CANT REMEMBER THE TECHNICAL NAME. SILLY! IT IS HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE.

Eagerly waiting to read a perfect review from you perhaps?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Mar 2011, 21:55

kalyani_ragam: Regarding reviews in this forum, these are not critical reviews, but a subjective expression of what was felt by the rasika. That is why 'kalyani? Oh, not again!!', 'No RTP, bleh!', 'No tamil songs?', 'All tamil songs?', 'No Thyagaraja songs?' are all expressed freely as that person's reactions. They are not to be interpreted as some sort of standard that musicians should follow.

I do agree that sometimes those personal expressions are written forcefully as if they are some established standards and readers can misinterpret them. Caveat Emptor.

This is not to say opinions that overlap with critical reviews are not written but as a rule we should go into reading the reviews in this forum as 'expressions of what that member felt'.

So, What is the difference? The word 'criticism' implies a 'yardstick' or 'standard'. In CM, it is the established LakshaNA ( syntax and semantics ), Lakshaya ( pragmatics ) and concert practice. The edges of these three things are fuzzy but that does not mean the entire yardstick is fuzzy. A good critic knows how to express his own personal reactions and his 'evaluations' against this fuzzy yardstick. The critic should make sure there is no confusion between these two.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Mar 2011, 22:15

vk - this implies that the standard is clear, unambiguous with no possibility of multiple interpretations. I would argue that has clearly never been the case with CM, and perhaps for music in general itself. There are no inviolable laws here - everything is elastic with elasticity varying with time and era. Hence one cannot take subjectivity out of music - it is innate to it.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Mar 2011, 22:39

Arun, Absolutely true about music being subjective. One point about classical music in general is, it is subject to literary criticism mainly because it is the edges that are fuzzy and not the whole thing. Against such a framework, multiple interpretations can be given, thus giving rise to a healthy debate about these things. Which in turn can guide the entire art form to a (slow) evolution to newer personas.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Mar 2011, 22:46

I think it is way more fuzzy than in the edges. What is "classicism" is not clearly accepted, and it is not static. History has enough evidence.

I may be in the minority but I think there is zero chance of objective criticism in music

-

Also a "rasika's subjective opinion" does not mean it isn't an evaluation. Depending on the content, it also falls into the realm of criticism particularly from the point of the target of that evaluation (whether it is a performer, a sabha organizer). So echoing an earlier poster, these are all critiques - just colored with different shades of subjectivities, biases as well as technical competencies.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Mar 2011, 22:51

Sure.. But where does that leave things, if things are so wishy washy on these matters.

I am just cautioning against the impression at the other extreme that since music in general is subjective, classical music can not be critically discussed and evaluated. My contention is, among all genre of music, classical music allows for it more so than other forms because of the continuous tradition going back centuries. That is the boon and bane of classical music, of all kinds.
It is just that certain caveats and disclaimers have to be stated clearly so people do not get emotionally charged about these things.

>I may be in the minority but I think there is zero chance of objective criticism in music

-

This may sound counter intuitive...The cure for subjective criticism is more subjective criticism.. namely, a debate by other critics.. That is the only way, the subjective elements can be fuzzily separated from some abstract and fuzzy standards.

>it is not static. History has enough evidence.

Yes. And it is not as chaotic an evolution as other musical genres mainly because of the 'standards' (LL) which act as a governor against too many changes happening too quickly based on the whims and fancies of one generation. It is a change guided by the invisible hands of the fuzzy standards. We can argue about how fuzzy they are but I contend even that argument is possible mainly because there is such a standard.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Mar 2011, 23:08

Good points but I would think there is a heavier tendency to presume that classical music is welll defined rather than a tendency to think it is "free for all". In fact it is a suffocating tendency in CM.

Arun

PS: Besides I (again in the very minority) really dont think critics play that important a role in guiding the art over generations. They have a role but a much smaller one than the collective role of the rasikas.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Mar 2011, 00:35

>I would think there is a heavier tendency to presume that classical music is well defined rather than a
>tendency to think it is "free for all". In fact it is a suffocating tendency in CM.

Completely agreed, that is one of the frustrating aspect and quickly sucks up the enjoyment of music. One of the reasons is the CM fraternity's tendency to theorize in addition to experiencing the music, and that too more on the lakshaNa than lakshaya since the former is easier for non-musicians and critics to latch on to.

>Besides I (again in the very minority) really dont think critics play that important a role in guiding the art
>over generations. They have a role but a much smaller one than the collective role of the rasikas.

In CM specifically, there was not much scope for criticism of public performances themselves until relatively recently ( 100 or less years ). Music sponsored by zamindars, chieftans and royalty is a different atmosphere. May be court appointed critics had some role, but there also it is not easy to rise above politics and favoritism. And the musicologists who wrote these treatises codifying the music do not seem to be critics either. And, their work seems to be more descriptive than prescriptive. So it is hard to tell what the evolutionary agents are. It is a complex process.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Mar 2011, 01:39

vasanthakokilam wrote:>I would think there is a heavier tendency to presume that classical music is well defined rather than a
>tendency to think it is "free for all". In fact it is a suffocating tendency in CM.

Completely agreed, that is one of the frustrating aspect and quickly sucks up the enjoyment of music. One of the reasons is the CM fraternity's tendency to theorize in addition to experiencing the music, and that too more on the lakshaNa than lakshaya since the former is easier for non-musicians and critics to latch on to.

perhaps except that if you look at history - lakshaNa itself isnt always set in stone. But obviously it is more so and more easily quantifiable than lakshya (which is actually subjective I think because it is the interpretive element)

vasanthakokilam wrote: In CM specifically, there was not much scope for criticism of public performances themselves until relatively recently ( 100 or less years ). Music sponsored by zamindars, chieftans and royalty is a different atmosphere. May be court appointed critics had some role, but there also it is not easy to rise above politics and favoritism. And the musicologists who wrote these treatises codifying the music do not seem to be critics either. And, their work seems to be more descriptive than prescriptive. So it is hard to tell what the evolutionary agents are. It is a complex process.

Indeed - I actually was going to say something similar. As far as treatise authors not critics - true except venkatamakhin does unload on rAmamaTya quite a bit in CDP

- but that was about gross differences is lakshana i.e what he believed were factual errors.

Arun

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 09 Mar 2011, 07:27

arunk,

When critiquing cooking, we can say, "This is mouthwateringly exquisite" or we can say, "The dash of mint really charms it up". Or, we can say, "It was nauseating" or "There could have definitely been less salt!"

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Mar 2011, 07:40

And both versions are subjective. That dash of mint that charmed one may have had no effect on another, or too strong for another. What was more salt for one, may be "just perfect" for another. That there was a mint/salt is fact (assuming no mint/salt substitutes are in play!), what effect it had on one's taste bud is subjective.

Arun

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 Mar 2011, 08:24

In CM specifically, there was not much scope for criticism of public performances themselves until relatively recently ( 100 or less years ). Music sponsored by zamindars, chieftans and royalty is a different atmosphere. May be court appointed critics had some role, but there also it is not easy to rise above politics and favoritism. And the musicologists who wrote these treatises codifying the music do not seem to be critics either. And, their work seems to be more descriptive than prescriptive. So it is hard to tell what the evolutionary agents are. It is a complex process.vasanthakokilam

There was an unbroken bhAgavata tradition which nurtured music for its core values - bhakti and upAsana - beyond entertainment. Purandara Dasa, OVK and Tyagaraja belong to this tradition. In another thread, there is a kRti praising 'vajIru hamIru'. Such composers and musicians were different genre. In response to a similar post elsewhere, it was observed by a fellow rasika that 'but for these musicians - read 'entertainers' - tyAgarAja's compositions would have been lost'. I may humbly point out that nature has its own way of preserving treasures. Srirangam Temple is stated to have been buried under sand. Let no one take credit that 'we' are preserving music - far from true. Vibrations of this universe are never lost.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Mar 2011, 08:27

Arun, there is subjective vs objective. And then there is 'easily quantifiable vs not so quantifiable'. These two are not the same necessarily. In spite of all the subjectivity, there is still a cultural standard for a good meal. It is not easily quantifiable ( again with fuzzy edge differences ). If there is too much disagreement, we create a split. Tanjore Rasam vs Mysore Rasam, but they still have an identity until Kumbakonam folks start making too many variations from that norm, then we need to create another split

( In CM, that is how bANi is born I suppose, Tanjore bANi, Mysore bANi and then school and artist specific bANis etc. )

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 09 Mar 2011, 09:34

I was expecting that.

But the "dash of mint" and "could have been less salt" comments both depict more knowledge of cooking and skills in tasting on the reviewer's part. Besides, the reviewer makes it clearer what EXACTLY they like, and what the cook should do to "improve" (at least for that reviewer) their cooking. ALSO, a (knowledgeable) reader who knows they like their food saltier than most people do will also not write off the "could have been less salt" cook.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 09 Mar 2011, 09:44

arunk wrote:what effect it had on one's taste bud is subjective.

I would think taste buds react predictably to most substances.

It is the brain, or maybe some even subtler layer of a person, that will have a subjective reaction.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 09 Mar 2011, 11:09

I am posting my reply in the topic responsibilities of a reviewer, which is also relevant to the topic-TMK-N.Ram

#54 - munirao2001

Re: Responsiblities of a reviewer » 23 Jan 2011 05:22
On criticism, there is an English saying “If you want to avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing and be nothing”. One will still attract criticism for adopting and implementing these ideas.
Criticism should not be carelessly opposed, it should not be allowed to disturb mentally, it should be analyzed objectively and the mind in peace, to realize the truth in the criticism and take corrective action is the right manner of facing the criticism. The best way is self critical analysis, positively react and act, heeding the advice of the inner voice. Love, passion and self lessenes in action only will be fruitful.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Mar 2011, 19:24

srikant1987 wrote: I would think taste buds react predictably to most substances. It is the brain, or maybe some even subtler layer of a person, that will have a subjective reaction.

Indeed - but then what is your point with your earlier question anyway?

Arun

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 09 Mar 2011, 21:24

arunk wrote:Indeed - but then what is your point with your earlier question anyway?

This:

srikant1987 already wrote:But the "dash of mint" and "could have been less salt" comments both depict more knowledge of cooking and skills in tasting on the reviewer's part. Besides, the reviewer makes it clearer what EXACTLY they like, and what the cook should do to "improve" (at least for that reviewer) their cooking. ALSO, a (knowledgeable) reader who knows they like their food saltier than most people do will also not write off the "could have been less salt" cook.

Please don't treat me like I'm some bumpkin (but of course, you could say this is expected bumpkin behaviour) ...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Mar 2011, 21:49

ah - sorry - I didn't see that post (a combination of browsing on a small mobile device and being careless to not consider the possibility that the last post may not be the only post)

Yes - one can quantify exactly why one liked something or did not like it. That certainly helps others understand the thought process. But it still does not take out the subjectivity part out of the conclusions - because ultimately one is saying "i liked it" vs. "i didn't like it" (or it was within my tolerance vs. outside). Of course more may agree to a reviewer's opinions and conclusions if they think he/she is knowledgeable enough to make those - but to me it is still more people forming opinions about the capability of the reviewer forming an opinion or drawing conclusion about a performer. In a ironic way, subjectivity part also adds up.

My only point in all of this is you cannot take subjectivity out - even in the most informed criticism. Ultimately it is someone's preference - which may be the norm or may be an exception. It does not also mean that because it is subjective, it is completely useless or completely invalid. However, quantifying one's preference does not cancel out the subjectivity element.

Arun

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 09 Mar 2011, 23:25

It may be difficult to concede that "you cannot take subjectivity out"

A talented and a critic well versed on the subject of which he has chosen to comment upon can put forth always objective criticism -the areas where he finds efforts are needed to improve upon etc., This can be possible if the critic brings in no external influences.
One such man was Shri PV Subramaniam. His criticisms were based on the concerts only.

Objective criticism will be helpful to the person commented upon.

There are many in the sports field who makes objective criticism only.

venkatakailasam

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Mar 2011, 23:45

I know I am lowering the level of the conversation again (it has touched some very interesting points about criticism) but it occurs to me that the kind of thing that we read in the newspapers is not really criticism at all --- it is news items.

Just because it is news items about art, it gets elevated with the title "criticism", but it isn't. Criticism is something analytical, academic, and of some depth. It is not the mention of such-an-artist having performed (rendered, whatever-ed) particular ragas, with mention of whether the concert went with a zing or not.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Mar 2011, 00:34

Nick I think they are facts mixed with opinion (and mostly written with an intent of conveying an opinion). And I dare say they are more like criticism (but I acknowledge the difference).

When I said you cannot take subjectivity out, it is based on what I take objective analysis as: to be something that is done without mixing in personal feeling, preferences and biases etc. Perhaps that is too strict for art or perhaps there are different meanings to it depending on context.

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Mar 2011, 00:47

If you did take the subjectivity out, probably the result would be rather dry, and perhaps would not attract many readers?

Even though I love books, I find literary criticism very heavy going.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Mar 2011, 00:51

It will certainly be dry but I really think there are so many aspects of arts were things are not (or cannot be) unambiguously defined so that everyone comes to the conclusion/opinion. So that's why I said you cannot take it out - it is the nature of the beast.

Arun

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 10 Mar 2011, 06:52

Adding to few nice points that each of you have written. I can atleast start with my own experience . Everybody can only start reviewing only with the subjective impressions , I guess as we write more and more , there is a search within each of us to add a level of objectivity. At times in a review the objectivity just does not come , but few times it indeed comes. Also I have noticed to consciously write with more objectivity , it requires few more iterations to write the same review and then post it . I have tried few times but it just takes too much of time , at times it is simply not worth trying.

As such the best thing about internet reviews that too in a forum is the threaded discussion ,Here each of us can write as long as you want , and each of us can be challenged with more posts from more folks which gives more objectivity in reviews. In newspaper it is just one snapshot or if I can say just stale static content that dies with the first post.

But however Hindu has one million eye balls ;( ;( ;( vs reviews here have 200 to 300 eyeballs. |(

Interestingly about 5 years back , when I and Vijay were approached by the indian express to write reviews we were asked to write reviews within say 250 words or so , both of us wrote two reviews and sent to Indian express . As such significant content was cut and what we really wanted to say ,just did not make it . As such print media has intrinsic constraints and it is just too difficult to express in shortened version and more importantly there is no guarantee that, what one writes gets published.