Popularity of Carnatic music

[venkatakailasam]

A cursory glance at You Tube uploads of north Indian Classical music and that of South Indian Carnatic music tend to show that the former has substantially more viewer base than that of south Indian music.
Does it mean that north Indian music is more popular than that of south Indian.
What can be the reason for this trend ?
In this connection please see:
Popularity of Carnatic music by Raghavan Jayakumar, PhD
@ http://www.karnatik.com/article001.shtml
As CM music lovers can we examine ?

venkatakailasam

[Sundara Rajan]

One simple straightforward reason that there are more VIEWERS of North Indian music You Tube uploads is that there ARE more North Indians than there are South Indians, populationwise. Also many south Indians do appreciate Hindustanis music as well, whereas very few, if any, north indians appreciate carnatic music enough to look up carnatic uploads. There may be other valid reasons too.

[VK RAMAN]

IMHO Even among south Indians there are a lot of people, who do not appreciate CM or do not listen to CM

[kunthalavarali]

In addition to Sundara rajan's comments, it is sad to note that CM is supported mostly by a small community Whether you are in Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad or Thiruvananthapuram, it makes little difference.
Many of my North Indian friends find CM complicated. After decades of listening to CM I concur with this view. IMHO two things complicate CM. Lyrics is one. It puts great demands on memory in the first instance, leave alone diction, grammer, etc. It is only in bhajans, ghazals, etc HM has importance for words. The second is to do with laya. It literally drives people away (you see that during the thani avarthanam). There may be more reasons. The so called pure/ traditional CM will remain elitist, I suppose.

[srikant1987]

I think one important problem is that most of the people who frequently listen to CM listen to vocal music. Vocal music has MANY things that can turn away someone who isn't used to it, right from the completely unintelligible lyrics to the nonsense syllables used for AlApanas.

Correspondingly, most CM concerts everywhere are vocal music, and so it remains amongst the same people.

[Sundara Rajan]

I hate to have to bring in caste in to the topic. As Kunthalavarli indirectly pointed out, look at the audience in any carnatic concert, whether in India or even here in the U.S.; 95+ % are brahmins. The artists also are so, with the exception of a few instrumentalists. KeraLa may be an exception. Thus carnatic music has become to be considered a brahmin art form! Brahmins are a minority in all southern sates. I am not aware of any current carnatic vocalist who is not a brahmin, if any. No body stands in the way of other caste people to learn/practise carnatic music, but in reality there are no takers. Hence the small number of practioners/rasikas of this art form.

[srikant1987]

The second is to do with laya. It literally drives people away (you see that during the thani avarthanam).

Well, the tani is not to blame! That's a poor 15-minute section in a 2.5-hr concert, and if someone finds it torturous they can take a break. Yes all that bad manners, how will you ever get to learn thing is there, but I don't think that one tani avartanam makes a whole concert unenjoyable even for a laya-shoonya. Besides, some people just like to listen to the sound of our percussion instruments.

An overdose of kaNakku swaras (which are no way "pure/traditional" -- going by MMI, GNB, SSI et al) will be a lot more irksome, since most items have some swarams.

[Nick H]

I am not aware of any current carnatic vocalist who is not a brahmin

Rama Varma?

But yes, I'm just trying to be clever there: the mention of one royal prince hardly invalidates your point.

More pertinently, but less to do with Chennai, is the worldwide Sri Lankan Tamil population --- at least on the audience side of the curtain

[vasanthakokilam]

I think one important problem is that most of the people who frequently listen to CM listen to vocal music. Vocal music has MANY things that can turn away someone who isn't used to it, right from the completely unintelligible lyrics to the nonsense syllables used for AlApanas.

Correspondingly, most CM concerts everywhere are vocal music, and so it remains amongst the same people.

Srikant, I am trying to understand your thesis. It is true that vocal music in general draws more crowd. As a case in point, I noticed a form of demand based pricing at Sivagami Pettachi. For Ravi Kiran concert, one section cost Rs. 100. For Sikkil Gurucharan that same section cost Rs. 200.

So, is your thesis( hypothesis ) that since vocal music is more popular, it is sort of known for it among the non-cm population and since they may not like vocal music, they do not show up even for instrumental CM.. because it does not even occur to them that the instrumental CM may be different and they may actually like it? Or even the instrumental music is just the same old vocal music, but just played on an instrument, as opposed compositions that are taylored for instruments..

Just trying to explore and add some more layers to what you are saying...

[smala]

...I am not aware of any current carnatic vocalist who is not a brahmin, if any. No body stands in the way of other caste people to learn/practise carnatic music, but in reality there are no takers....


Our famous Yesudas...well, if "he" "they" can sing about the Lord or the Divine in their many forms and attributes, which makes for much of CM, and yet not be allowed within the preccints of a temple on a regular day OR during any temple music or other utsavams, what would be the motivation ? CM is not restricted to southern India - there's an active group in Malyasia, without brahmin tags, hardly known or recognized by the CM-Chennai scenario in India. An example is the active and talent-nurturing TFA (http://tfa.org.my/bday/pagedancecourse.html) check out instructors under music and dance. Even Shankar Kandasamy, the brilliant choreographer/teacher would be barely known if not for youtube. And even then, there is still no reach to bridge the gap from Chennai/SI. OTOH, all CM patron-organizer-teachers in the U.S. are known in Chennai - no guesses needed, why.

[vasanthakokilam]

Let me tell the story of two of my friends, same age band as I, who offer some interesting sample data. Think of these as rasika groups since these two act as templates that define a large group of people. I am intentionally giving a detailed account to paint the full portrait, including the nuances. ( the issue I am addressing is more about concert going rasikas and not you-tube watching rasikas but I think it is still extrapolate-able to some extent )

Friend 1: Tamnonbram.. When I knew him during college days, I would not even suspect an iota that he would be interested in CM. He was not. He was big on film music, can sing film songs decently. Roll forward 30+ years, I reestablished contact with him. He is still going great with his fandom for film music, his depth of involvement in it and has also improved his copycat singing abilities of film music ( and CM based songs ) to a great extent that he can sing in public in light music concerts. And he has become a listener of CM. He can identify ragas by associating the melody with film songs. He knows specific compositions now, not just the run of the mill variety, but even MD ones. He is attracted to heavy compositions as well. Pantuvarali is his favorite raga. He genuinely likes CM now. His tastes are quite refined. Since he does not have any family background or others to even remotely influence his tastes, it is all self-developed and he is not shy about telling what he likes and what he does not like and why.. He can indulge in 'why' in terms of his own ideas on 'lakshaya' ( not lakshanA given his outsider status ). In summary, a knowledgeable person, a sensitive rasika of music and who holds critical views on CM but as an outsider relative to the typical CM concert goers.

What I noticed with him is: He is intolerant of bad singing, even border line bad, what typically may pass as good CM. Voice quality is important and so is the manner of singing. To him, good CM is not light music and it is also not overly gamaka oriented music. 'Sowkyam with Depth, with gamaka as an enabler of these two' is how I will characterize it, whichever way it is achieved. He is critical about how most singers sing kalpanaswaras, he feels it is devoid of melody. He feels that those inside the CM circle are elitists and that they do not respect talent outside of the circle. His wrath includes rasikas who dismiss the talent of popular artists just because they are popular.

In short, he likes CM and specific artists but not the CM establishment, however we define it. He buys a lot of CDs of the artists he likes and listens a lot.

But he rarely attends concerts. I have not really gotten a good feel for why but at least partially it may have some thing to do with not wanting to associate with the 'elitiest and snotty' crowd. I have not gotten such strong opinions out of him on this but I think he is being polite.

Friend 2: Tambram... Extremely cultured, values highly everything related to religion, philosophy, language etc. and respects all of them enormously, he inculcates all such traditional values in his children. They are all high achievers in academic as well as our classical arts ( dance, music etc. ). Great family. He also organizes a lot of community events, volunteers for such events including classical concerts. He listens to CM CDs etc. His regret is that he does not have a good knowledge of one of the big poles of our cultural tent, namely CM.

He attended a full concert of one of the currently top male singers. It was a three hour concert. He just could not sit through the 3 hours.. It was so funny to hear him describe what a torture it was for him. I told him not to worry, concerts are not for everyone and he should be enormously pleased with his association with classical arts through all his other activities and listening to CM at his pace.

I think these two groups of people are targets for conversion to potential concert goers. I do not know the exact methods of proselytizing but just as suggestions from the top of my head: For the first category, we need a different face of CM with out any of the baggage while keeping the quality high and deep. For the second category, a different format may help. May be this is the crowd that R&G and Aruna tap in to.

[VK RAMAN]

CM is on a leash called brahmins. CM must be unleashed and the instititions conducting CM must also unleash from brahmin clutches. Kerala role model may help in this. I know of many music teachers of castes other than brahmins/faith other than hindus in Kerala. I hope I did not open a hornets nest. Brahmins must not only surround themselves with brahmins but other castes and faiths.

[Nick H]

I mentioned the Sri-Lankans, Shyama Priya mentioned the Malaysians ... So are you not talking about, specifically, Chennai Carnatic music? Granted, of course, that Chennai is the fountain thereof, although the future could see that changed.

Anyway... Doesn't every serious music genre in the world wish it knew how to get concert seats filled?

I went to a concert of African music a couple of days ago. Two things struck me about the experience. It was nothing like my first experience of African music, and yet it was completely different to what I expected (I expected more rhythmic thumping: what I got was amazing and exquisite delicacy) and the other was the small size of the audience.

Somebody suggested that cricket was responsible for the latter --- but are people just not very musically adventurous? And are we not, as I nearly was in this case (I went because an American friend went), put off by our misconceptions and preconceptions?

[Sundara Rajan]

In my post #6 above I had stated "kerala may be an exception" ; Jesudas and Rama Verma come from Kerala. I only stated that I was not personally aware of any carnatic artist other than brahmins. Yes, there may be a few exceptions as Srilankan or Malaysian carnatic musicians. But their number is dispropotionately insignificant compared to the number coming from < 8% brahmin population. Students enrolled in Carnatic music courses in Music colleges are also said to be prdominantly brahmins !

[VK RAMAN]

In my post #6 above I had stated "kerala may be an exception" ; Jesudas and Rama Verma come from Kerala. I only stated that I was not personally aware of any carnatic artist other than brahmins. Yes, there may be a few exceptions as Srilankan or Malaysian carnatic musicians. But their number is dispropotionately insignificant compared to the number coming from < 8% brahmin population. Students enrolled in Carnatic music courses in Music colleges are also said to be prdominantly brahmins !

This does not reflect the model of Kerala. You will get several CM artists who are not brahmins there. Swati thirunal college of music - brahmins are in minority perhaps.

[smala]

In contrast, HM has both Hindus with a wide sweep in state origins from Karnataka, Maharashtra, Gujarat, Rajasthan, West Bengal, to MP, UP, etc. *and* Muslims!
I love the inclusive reach of HM and this music truly transcends human barriers.

The only muslims/non-brahmins in TN/south has had in CM is in Nadaswaram which is considered lowly even among instruments. For all its glorified status, CM is made to be esoteric and exclusive.

[Sundara Rajan]

VK Raman: You misunderstood me. I repeat, Kerala is an EXCEPTION, where you DO have non brahmin students, artists and rasikas, unlike in Tamil Nadu and USA. No body in Tamil Nadu prevents others from enrolling in Music courses in music schools and I don't think any private brahmin music teacher would refuse to take a non brahmin student. In Tamil Nadu Carnatic music is considered "brahmin music" and is shunned by the great majority, even though government scholatships may be available for all minorities as sc/st, bc, obc, muslims and christian converts, EXCEPT the minority brahmins !

[VK RAMAN]

The power that may be will not accept musicians with slight leaning to any other language than tamil. Prejudice to other languages is very predominant and you are right that includes U.S.A.

[srikant1987]

So, is your thesis( hypothesis ) that since vocal music is more popular, it is sort of known for it among the non-cm population and since they may not like vocal music, they do not show up even for instrumental CM.. because it does not even occur to them that the instrumental CM may be different and they may actually like it? Or even the instrumental music is just the same old vocal music, but just played on an instrument, as opposed compositions that are taylored for instruments..

Neither.

This:

most CM concerts everywhere are vocal music, and so it remains amongst the same people.

Chennai probably conducts 10 vocal concerts to 1 instrumental concert. Other places may not be as strongly leaning towards vocal concerts, but still do lean towards it. Very strongly.

If I just decide to give CM a try today, chances are the next concert I come to know of is a vocal music concert. I might have to wait for well over a month if I insist on instrumental music and by then I might have forgotten my resolution or lost my patience and curiosity.

Well, sangeethamshare isn't that well known!

[srikant1987]

Or even the instrumental music is just the same old vocal music, but just played on an instrument, as opposed compositions that are taylored for instruments..

Oh by the way, I feel "normal" CM played on instruments will appeal to a new entrant more than "instrumental compositions", which almost invariably have a huge concentration of dpmgrs-pmgrs-mgrs-youknowwhat.

One more thing is that I actually miss the clearing of throat and lengthy retunings and the ahas in performances done for recording. I don't know whether their presence might appeal to a newcomer. But it might give some hint as to what seasoned rasikas and performers appreciate, etc.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

As far as the CM scene in Tamil Nadu is concerned, prejudice to languages other than Telugu and Sanskrit is very prominent even amongst Brahmins. Even now in a majority of kutcheries, Tamil song continues to be a thukada, included with a lot of hesitation.

But, already there is a noticeable change. Sanjay Subramanian, Sudha Raghunathan, OS Arun, Aruna Sayeeram, Ravi Kiran, Nithyasri and many others add more and more Tamil songs. This is a good sign. However, till the time the majority of the Musicians in Tamil Nadu give equal importance to all languages including Tamil, CM in Tamil Nadu will continue to be dominated by Brahmins.

[kunthalavarali]

"Well, the thani is not to blame!" Of course not. Many of us love this part of this concert and quite a few look forward to the thani avarthanam in a concert.
As the thread is about the popularity of CM vis a vis HM, I mentioned this aspect. Only the (strongly) initiated is able to enjoy the nuances of laya in CM.
Is the majority support by one community for CM a post trinity phenomena?

[vasanthakokilam]

srikant, given my data on pricing of Ravi Kiran vs Sikkil Gurucharan and other reports we have seen where instrumental concerts do not attract as much audience as vocal, may be the reason for more vocal concerts than instrumental is demand. And you are saying that Non-CM rasikas will like instrumental more than vocal.. That is indeed an insight worth looking into. If that is true, people need to break this logjam by promoting instrumental concerts with non-cm audiences.

[manavan]

There are plenty of non-Brahmin vocalists, not just famous ones like Yesudas, Unnikrishnan, Manickam Yogeeswaran etc but students who come out of the Government College of Music.

I read this story a while back and thought it was very touching, and interesting that KJY is the one who became his teacher.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3784767.stm

Re: "I don't think any private brahmin music teacher would refuse" -- I don't personally know of any refusals (though I wouldn't be quick to assume), but I've had teachers ask about my caste.

[Nick H]

As someone who came to carnatic music rather than grew up with it, I can confirm that instrumental music is more accessible than vocal. I can give the example of my wife, too, who has never had any interest in CM (but enjoys HM) is also much more willing to accompany me to instrumental concerts rather than vocal.

After the initial barrier is down, and if a person has any interest in what is actually happening on the stage, vocal music then becomes more accessible, because it is easier to understand the different aspects. Even I may not always realise that a solo violinist has started to play neraval, whereas, with a vocalist, it is usually obvious --- just a for-instance.

I'm very keen that there should be more instrumental music: I'd like to see a better balance.

[Radhika-Rajnarayan]

I agree with Nick. Instrumental music is much easier to appreciate for a newcomer to CM.

[maduraimini]

Chittoor Subramaniam Pillai, M.M.Dandapani Desikar and ofcourse Yesudas were (are) not Brahmins. Higgins Baghavathar was an American. Carnatic Music is for anybody who wants to learn. Times have changed.

[munirao2001]

1) Any art form which demands better knowledge of the form, its content and its presentation/communication for listening, understanding, appreciation and enjoyment, is restricted to Class over Mass- lesser popular appeal and more popular appeal.
2) Carnatic Music demands a basic knowledge of its form, content and its practice.
3) The secular contents in CM is least handled and is heavy on religious contents. The intended compositions extolling the love and erotic love are also given the color and meaning of Bhakthi, to fall in line with the religious contents in CM, by the musicologists. The larger population of rasikas seeking, pure entertainment are turned away by this aspect of CM practice.
4) Rasikas unwillingness to support CM and its practitioners, financially, in comparison with other genre of music and the prevailing predominantly freebie culture. Popularity only ensures support, with cross neglect of the meritorious. Styles dominating over the profound Vidwath/Bani, leading to the gradual erosion of higher values and practices in the art form.
5) With the exception of very few Vidwans/Vidushis, the presentation techniques are unprofessional and naturally, less appealing. The connecting factors with rasikas is woefully short.
6) The event management is also unprofessional, with a very few exceptions.
7) The media, with few exceptions, both print and visual does not give coverage - either for financial reasons or for lack of sensationalism and play their part in promoting this art form.
8 ) CM appealing only to upper castes(economically)and communities and their support mostly to upper cast artists is also a strong factor. Total neglect of Nadaswara Great/Maestros is clear evidence of this factor.

The light classical/devotional CM contents/parts are much more popular(film/sugama/bhava/namasankeertana) due to easy appeal, presentation and right connect with the rasikas.

HM has Deeply classical/Heavily classical/Light classical/Devotional parts/contents. Light Classical and Devotional HM is extremely popular. Heavily classical is popular with rasikas of specific popular artists only. Deeply classical(Dhrupad) suffers patronage in HM also. Popularity only ensures support, with total neglect of the meritorious. Patrons/Donors support to HM is better in comparison with CM. Media coverage is better in comparison with CM. The great work of Pandit Ravishankar, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, Ustad Amjad Ali Khan, Zakir Hussein and many other Great Maestros of HM in popularizing with western audience and the highly rich and appealing life styles have immensely contributed to the HM popularity over CM. Government-both the Central and State support is also better to HM in comparison with CM.

To make CM more appealing and popular,
1) Art practitioners should focus more on presentation techniques and connect with rasikas. They should refrain accepting engagements/concerts with out fees, except for the not well funded temples.
2) A min. remuneration based on (atleast) AIR rank/fee structure should be fixed, demanded and paid.
3) CM musicians/Organizers should offer more thematic concerts- with light classical/devotional/heavy rhythmic along with deeply/heavily classical CM contents and variety. Well orchestrated CM, akin to film music is to be attempted and offered.
4) CM musicians should voluntarily undertake projects to reach out students and other disinterested groups/communities through interactive and participatory sessions of dialogue and music.
5) Event management must be professionalized, including the best Media coverage.
6) Funding organizations-Central, State, Corporate, Associations/Clubs(Rotary etc)and individuals should at least fund as generously as they for other genre of music, including the infrastructure facilities for teaching/learning/researching/archive/performing and for attending the events.

[Nick H]

I haven't properly read your post(I have to go out in some hurry), but wanted to quickly respond to one point

Carnatic Music demands a basic knowledge of its form, content and its practice.

Actually, no, it doesn't. It can be appreciated by those completely ignorant of both. It can be loved simply for its beauty as music. I have taken foreigners to concerts that I thought might be heavy-going for me --- and seen them love every minute.

I wonder how many are put off by being told that intellectual effort and study is mandatory?

More later



EDIT... Of course, it is necessary to appreciate it in the way that you appreciate it. Just as my foreign visitors will not know the things about the music that I know, so I will not know what you know. For those that wish to learn, there is a deepening process that enhances the pleasure --- but while people are outside, rather than inside, the halls, it cannot even begin.

[munirao2001]

Nick.H.,
The love or pleasure at the first time/initial stages of encounter of a new form of Art, is mostly derived through partaking the collective pleasure of the audience/rasikas present and being part of the group, import of the music may not be the critical factor. Sometimes it can influence negatively also, by not being able to go with the group perceptions and response. The rudimentary knowledge about the event/concert and the curiosity or excitement and the company of interested individual or the group motivates attendance, leading to the temporary pleasure or happiness of participation.
To derive true pleasure and happiness, individual experience and knowledge is a must. Craving for more and for sustained interest and urge to attend more events/concerts, repetitively, knowledge is the driving force.

HM makes less demand on the knowledge of rasika because of its system of vilambit to dhrut (slow to fast) tempo, over at least half an hour and with one or two compositions in one Raga. Time for intensive listening and reflection is possible for the even, uninitiated. CM with its modern cutcheri format with more emphasis on medium (with tilt towards, faster tempo) and fast tempo and with more compositions being handled, makes extra demand on intensive listening and deriving(catching!) the pleasure.

All those foreigners who love CM, at the first instance, are mostly lovers of Classical Western music-Jazz, in particular. They love for the strength of the manodharma, instant improvisation and imagination scope to a greater extent in CM, in comparison with HM. Also the brilliant instantaneous response of the accompanists, percussionists, specifically, is attractive.

Giving/acquiring basic or rudimentary knowledge is easy on the intellect and definitely does not put off, subject to making the information/knowledge interesting and exciting.

[Nick H]

It doesn't put off, no, but the aura of intellectualism that surrounds carnatic music may put people off. Sadly, the majority of my western friends do not like Indian music in general, although, obviously there are exceptions to that.

To make it popular (if such a thing is possible), we need to get people into the halls, or even putting on a CD at home and giving it a try. Giving them information is great: giving them the sense that they must pass an exam before they can partake is not at all great.

Actually, I'd say that HM is much harder on the Western ear. A long, long, long alap, with neither melody nor rhythm that the Western ear can grasp and use as an anchor, is just impossible to many people. Ravi Shankar hit a period in the West when there was a "progressive" rock movement, and an attraction for experience that was felt as psychedelic. Still, this was a minority interest. The majority were listening to stuff that was no better than the worse film songs of today!

Carnatic music might have fared better, but it never got a foot in the door (and barely does, even today) because nobody put that foot in the door. Foreign tourists to India might seek HM in Varanasi, but many pass through Chennai in December without even knowing that the Season music festival even exists.

All music is complex. Even the guitar chords in a simple pop song will not be understood by the listener --- but the message that they must understand before they start, just has to be off-putting.

Possibly, the foreign advantage is that we never received that message . We certainly know about where some forms of jazz or classical are concerned. Some of those sectors can be very elitist.

My first piece of information to non-CMers is, "Do your realise that this is completely unrehearsed?". This usually results in open mouths, whereas an attempt to differentiate neraval from kalpana swara causes glazed eyes and closed ears

[uday_shankar]

My first piece of information to non-CMers is, "Do your realise that this is completely unrehearsed?".

This is certainly true but doesn't tell the whole story. The untold part is equally fascinating and that's the years and years of preparation to get to the stage when they can actually do this "completely unrehearsed" thing on stage.

Different cultures carry out different extraordinary tasks routinely, thanks to the mandatory practice imposed on them for that task. The average Chinese routinely commits 10,000 pictorial representations to memory in order to be able to read and write. Sherpas routinely climb to very high altitudes with no oxygen and 70kg loads strapped to their backs. The average professional Carnatic katcheri group routinely creates complex and sophisticated music on stage, all seemingly extempore!

It's not called "classical" for nothing !

[Nick H]

Oh yes, very true. I was only giving my Level-1 version!

[munirao2001]

Uday_Shankar
Well said.
Nick.H,
"giving them the sense that they must pass an exam before they can partake is not at all great". External examination may put off, but, internal examination does not and is eminently helpful for true self enjoyment.

[kunthalavarali]

Munirao2001, your postings are very readable and I can't but agree with your views.
If anything CM is getting more elitist! Though the number of people attending CM concerts may be more now the percentage of CM followers has reduced.

[VK RAMAN]

"If anything CM is getting more elitist" - hmm

[cmlover]

The mean age of CM attendees and listeners has also taken a big leap

[prashanth12]

No body stands in the way of other caste people to learn/practise carnatic music................ Yes, there may be a few exceptions as Srilankan or Malaysian carnatic musicians.

When perception is one way, it's hard to "go against the flow" so to speak. Sometimes effort has to be made to change the perception before people feel comfortable going against it. I like munirao2001's suggestions.
P.S. regarding Sri Lankan Tamils, or at least among the dominant communities, Carnatic music is studied/performed/consumed without barrier, in very large numbers. Perhaps it is understandable for the Chennai community to be unaware of that, but "few exceptions" is an understatement.