male vs female sruti

[sung]

I have been puzzled by something for quite a while. Appreciate any help.

It is said that men sing ICM in C (1 kattai), C# (1.5 kattai), etc., whereas women sing in G (5 kattai), G# (5.5 kattai), etc. So, the number of the 'kattai' is higher in the case of women than in the case of men. However, my experience with my female teachers in the past is that my sruti (C#, 1.5 kattai) is high for them and they could not sing at my sruti.

Is the answer to the above conundrum that female sruti is one octave lower than male sruti? That is, is the G or G# of the female sruti actually in the lower octave compared to the C or C# of the male sruti. That is the only explanation I am able to think of. Is that correct?

Thanks.

[mohan]

No ... the female voice is higher. When a female tries to sing in C#, she is usually trying to sing one octave higher in C# (1.5+). Singing in the same octave C# (1.5) as you is too low for them.

Remember the scale goes something like this:

Code: Select all

 A   A#   B C  C#  D D#  E F F#  G G#  A A#  B C  C#   D+
-6 -6.5 -7 1  1.5 2 2.5 3 4 4.5 5 5.5 6 6.5 7 1+ 1.5+ 2+

-6 to 7: is for deep voiced male singers such as the late MD Ramanathan
1 to 2.5: is for most male singers
3 to 4: is for usually elderly female singers and some males
4.5 to 6: is for most female singers
6.5 and above: young children may be able to sing in this range

[sung]

When a female tries to sing in C#, she is usually trying to sing one octave higher in C# (1.5+).

Oh, I see. I went in the other direction. This makes more sense.

Thank you very much.

[veeyens3]

If one person sings inc# and another exactly one octave higher, there should be no discordant note since they are in sync?

[mohan]

If one person sings inc# and another exactly one octave higher, there should be no discordant note since they are in sync?

Yes two people singing one octave apart can sound quite nice. MSS and Radha used to do this quite often however on the higher notes the higher voice can sound a little shrill.
The chitravina has two strings one octave apart that are played in unison. It gives the sound a rich texture.

[rshankar]

Isn't singing one octave apart called 'singing seconds'? I think Smts. Brinda and Mukta used to do this as well.

[srikant1987]

Also the various violin duos (even trios).

[arunk]

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[sung]

When males and females sing together (for example, during bhajans), what is the optimum shruti to adopt, so that it won't be uncomfortable for either males or females?

When I lead bhajan songs (in my natural shruti of C#), I hear the females complain that I sing in "high" shruti (well, thanks to Mohan, now I know that the upper octave of my C# shruti is what is high for them). Should I try to sing in, for example, F, so that it might not be too uncomfortable for the females who repeat the bhajans after me? I guess they should be able to sing in F almost naturally.

Thanks.

[mri_fan]

I think the best thing to do is try just a couple of different sruthis out during practice.. In my experience, B is a good compromise. Alternatively, you can also try singing at D, as that is the panchama sruthi for women that normally sing in G.

[mohan]

When our local Thyagaraja Aradhana is conducted it is usually done in A, meaning the the males are singing a little lower than their comfortable range and the females a little higher.

Arunk - like you, I am not a fan of split octave singing. the same octave duets like Ranjani-Gayathri or Malladi Bros are much more pleasant to listen to!

[vasanthakokilam]

Mohan, A is quite low, M.D. Ramanathan low, as you stated earlier. Do the males manage that without any issues in mandhra sthayi?
I see why the choice of A is made. Anything higher will put the females too high.

Multi octave singing wise, Smt MSS-Smt. Radha combination works for me without any shrill effect.. Smt. Brinda and Smt. Muktha not as much. I have not listened lately but I am wondering if the issue is more severe in padams with the wide gamakas.

[cacm]

SINGING OCTAVES APART:
I feel the only combo that succeeded in doing this properly is M.S.Amma& Radha. The technical complications that prevent a successful duo doing this can be analysed technically from my point of view as follows:
1) As is well known, EVEN C has four frequency locations even neglecting the sub&higher frequency spreads involved (in the 24 note scheme
between octaves generally accepted). For perfect sruti suddham& swarasthanam in addition to perfectly merging with the Thambura sound requires an M.S.S. with her genius level talent+ intense practice for close to six hours practice a day trying to make her voice indistiguishable from the Thambura for practically her entire career. Radha with her insight into the (practically throughout her career) nuances of M.S.S.+ HER OWN GENIUS combined with close to half a century of practice TOGETHER in private as well as in public was an ideal foil. No wonder they succeeeded where others have not been able to. This is especially so if one had the good fortune of listening to them without any amplification, mikes etc.
2) I contend this aspect separates the Supergreats from the Greats.
In my opinion in Carnatic music I have heard only two persons reach the required level of perfection in this regard: M.S.S. & MMI......VKV

[srikant1987]

It must have also helped that Smt Radha, being considerably younger than MSS found a slightly higher pitch more comfortable. Vidushis Brinda and Mukta, being sisters, would have differed less in age.

Smt Rama Ravi and her daughter Smt Nandita Ravi also sing together like one voice. Though afaik they don't do this one-octave-difference singing.

KVN too handled his voice well as he aged.

[mohan]

A is quite low, M.D. Ramanathan low, as you stated earlier. Do the males manage that without any issues in mandhra sthayi?

If any note is too low then the males will resort to singing that bit in the higher octave. Similarly, for the higher parts the females may have to sing in the lower octave. Its not ideal, but is the most equitable solution.

[srikant1987]

But mohan, if the resorting-to-sing-in-the-higher-octave technique is employed, G would be just as good, and would tax the women (and maybe even the men) less.

Another idea would be to take C or D for the men and the women could sing in the madhyamashruti for that.

[mohan]

G would be great for the women but very low (or very high) for men. If the group has mainly women and only a few men, then this may be the preferred option.

[mri_fan]

At Thiruvayyaru, they sing at a male sruthi (around B or C). At Cleveland, they sing in G. Both work, and just require adjustments by the musicians on stage.

[arunk]

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[cacm]

[quote="arunk"]Why is that most topics have to result in eulogies and pedestal raisings and comparisons ? While I can the reasoning, I would not have expected that in this topic. It is like reiterating Bradman's greatness whenever any discussion of any aspect of batting is done
Since this is neither a 101 undergraduate course or 401 graduate course in Physics or Music, it generally helps to refer to CONCRTETE examples of cases which people can relate to in some level. Actually reference to practisioners at times helps focus at least SOME on what was it that makes at least some STILL feel haunted by their greatness. I thought this was a Forum where personal EXPRESSIONS WERE TOLERATED IF NOT LIKED.......VKV

[arunk]

vkv sir - sorry for bringing it up. We are of course free to express these things

[Nick H]

Arun, do you think that any interval other than an octave, has a particular flavour? This, using this interval might change the feeling of the music?

Also, is there any problem using these intervals in the carnatic, rather than the western, tempered scale? Either in that they wont sound right, or will have a different flavour depending on the base note?

[cienu]

While on this topic I have uploaded a small clip of Smt MS and Smt Radha singing in different octaves. (year 1966)
This is a Padam in Gaulipantu - Vijaya Dwaraka - by Papanasam Sivan.
The tune is the same as Kshetragna's padam in this ragam (Kuvalayaakshiro)
http://www.mediafire.com/?aurztpdvu37oiza

[arunk]

deleted

[Nick H]

(Quick repsonse)

Yes it is like how different chords have different flavors.

That's what I was thinking. As you put it, a different "dimension".