Is Musical Truth Abstract?

[VK RAMAN]

A very simple to understand explanation by Steve Topping. Do continue to participate in the discussion. Thanks.

[Nick H]

How amazing it would be if everyone ever quoted came to join in the discussion! Welcome!

[mahavishnu]

Welcome! Thanks for participating in this discussion.

[Ranganayaki]

Welcome Steve Topping and thank you for stepping in to provide the context.. We were extending your quote to music in general and discussing it from that point of view.

Your mention of our English reminds me of one important flaw in this discussion.. The word "obtuse" was used in reference to Steve Topping's quote, and I am certain that it was not meant in the way the word is normally understood, I think whoever used the word really wanted to say "hard for us to understand" rather than "stupid".. I got so comfortable with the word in that usage that I used it too in that same sense at least once, and it was when I naturally used "obscure" that I realized that the mistake had previously been made. I was too lazy to go and correct it (involves signing in, finding the post, and so on ) , but I don't want Steve Topping's feelings to be hurt, just in case he noticed it. So Steve, it was just a wrong word, I think the poster (and I) meant "obscure", hard to understand.

[arasi]

Steve Topping,
Good to see you here!
My apologies to you for not doing a good job of quoting you.
Then again, I should not apologize--because my doing so led to a lot of interesting responses.
As Nick says, if only all those whom we quote come to explain their intent clearly as you have done so graciously!
Your blue lines speak clearly of your intent--your poem, even more so. What 'brushes us by' gets your attention--which makes all the difference.You have captured the past, present and the future in them--of course, with all the mystery which surrounds them Thanks...
.

[Steve Topping]

Thank you to everyone for your warm welcome and I was certainly not offended by anything.
More than anything my feeling is a slight embarrassment (only slight) at the tone of my original text, because I have never liked to read people who write that way!
However I hope I also made my point too, if imperfectly... but words are slippery creatures.

Now I must listen to some Carnatic music, and then I can return with something constructive to add. I mention briefly in my bio on my website that I made an instant connection with Indian music when I first heard it. Of course that is a generalised statement - I do not know enough about the different schools and traditions.
I have been to various concerts over the years including the festivals in Brent/Wembley, London a few years back. It is an extremely rich and living tradition ... one of the greatest of all musics. Any recommendations as to what I should seek out as a balanced diet of Carnatic Music please?

I am always surprised when I hear it said (as I did on this site) that Indian music uses melody rather than harmony ... my interior experience of it is very much harmonic as well as melodic. Harmony is not exclusively a vertical phenomena, and even without the various sympathetic resonances and drones, it is true that melody / linear pitch adjacency makes harmony in it's own very beautiful way - one that is very dear to my heart, because I often compose with line point drawings of single notes.
The solo acoustic guitar piece Renewal (i) & (ii) (track 3 on the Time And Distance album) uses that approach in my own way.
Anyhow I didn't mean to start talking about myself.

Bye for now ...
Steve

[cmlover]

Steve
Visit
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/
you may be able to register at that site with your Google or yahoo ID. There is a wealthy collection of good Carnatic recordings there. You may start with Mandolin Srinivas / Ravikiran/ Mali/.. for a search to get melodic recordings that may attract you. Again there are plenty of Nadaswaram recordings there which is a typical South Indian Traditional melodic Instrument. Our Nick can give you cues on laya (rhythms) recordings which may introduce you to our styles. Feel free to use our mail system to communicate with any of our members privately.

Hope to see more of you here...

[Ranganayaki]

..

[Ranganayaki]

Steve
Visit
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/
.....
Our Nick can give you cues on laya (rhythms) recordings which may introduce you to our styles. Feel free to use our mail system to communicate with any of our members privately.

Hope to see more of you here...

Nick might be the best person to make suggestions for Steve Topping. It is so hard to get into the Western mind and know what of our music they may find appealing. Plus there is also the question of prior involvement and depth in music, which Steve (and Nick, probably) already have. Who knows, may be even vocal music might make the cut!

Nick, may be you can tell us about your first (ever) experience with Carnatic Music. What did you hear, and how did you grow into it?

[vasanthakokilam]

Steve, welcome! It is always good to get the input from the author himself. In fact, in a couple of posts, we discussed if we really understood what you meant or we are just relating. I am glad you provided more context.

I would like you to discuss the 'distillation of styles'. That is one area where there was some diversity on how people understood it. May be, an example or two would help clarify it.

If you are looking to buy a cd or two of carnatic music, you can start with http://www.amazon.com/Gems-Thyagaraja-M ... 8-10-spell (Gems of Thyagaraja by M.S.S. There are a total of three volumes ).

(Ranganayaki, I am probably the first one to use 'obtuse' in this context and I definitely meant it in the 'difficult to comprehend' meaning. If you had not brought it up, I would not have even known it has the other meaning )

[Nick H]

I am always surprised when I hear it said (as I did on this site) that Indian music uses melody rather than harmony ... my interior experience of it is very much harmonic as well as melodic. Harmony is not exclusively a vertical phenomena, and even without the various sympathetic resonances and drones, it is true that melody / linear pitch adjacency makes harmony in it's own very beautiful way - one that is very dear to my heart, because I often compose with line point drawings of single notes

I was once told by a carnatic musician: "it is wrong to say that carnatic music does not have harmony: there is always the drone, so there is always harmony." That stuck in my mind, and is pertinent too what you say. Of course, it is not quite the same thing as composing and playing chords.

CML, I'm the last Westerner to ask! I seem to have got myself into a comfortable little rut of a few musicians, just at the moment. I'm also astonished, sometimes, at what my "fellow westerners" do enjoy. Added to which, although I can remember being "converted" to Carnatic, I had been enjoying Hindustani for long before that. I haven't looked at Steve's website yet, either --- but I will

[Steve Topping]

I am away on business for a few days and don't have time to answer in a full enough way, but next week I will be home and meanwhile I will try to hear some of these suggestions above.
I think I will discover some profound music through your knowledge & familiarity with great Carnatic music.
I am familiar with the astonishing virtuosity and rhythmic sophistication of some modern instrumental exponents, but the idea of the pure vocal source of this music appeals to me greatly ...this is I think what I will discover through this forum, and more I hope....till next week, thanks

Steve