gAyatri

sruthi · Post by **sruthi** » 13 May 2011, 18:55

arasi wrote:I think Ranjani and Gayatri have sung RTPs (rAgamAlikA ones) in ranjani.

Is there a ragam called Gayathri? If yes, it would be nice to hear them render an RTP in the two ragas!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 May 2011, 00:36

Searched for it and could not find it.

Since Gayathri as a raga does not seem to exist, I put a scale together based on the gayatri manthra phrase structure and mapping it to swara intervals.

gAyathri - S R1 G3 P D2 S - S D2 P M1 G2 R1 S

sruthi · Post by **sruthi** » 14 May 2011, 03:28

vasanthakokilam, it wasn't clear to me how you put together the scale based on the gayathri mantra! Can you explain please.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 May 2011, 04:56

I realize I am opening myself up for pot shots from Sanskrit scholars for some errors in my method. My knowledge of Sanskrit is quite limited. But then this is my method, bugs included.

I took this portion of the manthra:

tát savitúr váreṇyaṃ
bhárgo devásya dhīmahi
dhíyo yó naḥ pracodáyāt Om

and wrote out the number of syllables in the words ( here is where there can be some mistakes )

That came to: 1 3 3 2 3 3 2 1 1 4 1

I took a little bit of liberty and rewrote the sequence as : 1 3 3 2 3 3 2 2 2 2 1

Next task is to map it to the Arohana/Avarohana.

Start counting the numbers in the above sequence. When it reaches 12, that is the Arohanam/Avarohanam boundary.

So we get:
Arohanam: 1 3 3 2 3
Avarohanam: 3 2 2 2 2 1

These numbers are interpreted as the number of semitones between swaras. ( e.g. number of semitones between S and R1 is 1 and R1 and G3 is 3 ). That is the reason for counting up to 12 ( since there are 12 semitones in an Octave ).

For example: In Arohanam, Start with S, the first number is 1, so the next swara is R1. The next number is 3 which maps to G3. And so on. And we get the following scale.

gAyathri
Arohanam: S R1 G3 P D2 S
Avarohanam: S D2 P M1 G2 R1 S

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 14 May 2011, 07:13

VK: very clever. The explanation was essential to catch on.
Are there any specific gamakams/phrases in this ragam?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 May 2011, 07:29

vk - technically it will be "beyond-vivadhi"

Once you ascend as in R1 G3, think about how one would descend down to sa? It would have to usually be G2 R1 per avarahona. So you have R1 G3 G2 R1 S. Here unless I am mistaken, per context, in CM, G2 should become R3 (when following G3). But then, R1 is also there after that as opposed to the typical G3 R3 S.

Arun

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 14 May 2011, 07:43

VK, that's cute!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 May 2011, 07:50

Arun: Gayathri is beyond everything

I know what you are saying. HM folks get away with two Ms etc. so it will have to be along those lakshayas. When I tried to play the combination you came up with, it did not sound too bad, though the handling of the G3 G2 sequences requires some 'adjustments' with gamakas. But I am thinking that a recommended/suggestive 'constraint' that to reverse direction you have to reach a common Aro/Ava swara though that is not a requirement normally in CM. That will avoid the vivadhi combo.

Mahavishnu: I am working on a lakshaNa/lakshaya geetham for gAyathri with the garageband on the iPad

( sorry to take this thread in this direction. If it is too distracting ( it probably is ), we will move it to another thread )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 May 2011, 07:57

Actually my example is wrong as you cant descend from G3.

You can have s r1 g2 r1 s after that you have to go to ma to come back down (s r1 g3 m1 g2 r1 s)

Thus the situation I imagined doesnt exist. The secret of Gayatri is slowly unraveled

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 May 2011, 08:01

Ah... good. Thanks Arun.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 May 2011, 19:29

VK,
Let's hear it!
For those who do not know about your vasantakokiladhvani, please post it again!
GAyatri, as mahavishnu says (well, not quite!) needs a mini manual!Your number sequence bit--an influence of numerology?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 15 May 2011, 01:43

I seem to have missed vasanthakokiladhvani...
VK, could you please post details again?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 May 2011, 02:23

Well, that was during the dabblerfest in 2007

Raga: Vasanthakokiladhvani

Arohanam: s g3 p R2 S
Avarohanam: S p g r n' s

The full conversation starts here: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 012#p62012 Initially it did not have R in the avarohanam, Arun recommended its addition. The recordings have all expired. I will find some of them and resurrect them. Suji composed a varnam in the ragam too!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 May 2011, 04:58

Didn't she play it too?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 May 2011, 05:17

Yes, she did. Suji, post a link to that.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 May 2011, 05:21

Here is my attempt at raga gAyathri:

http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/a-song ... a-gayathri

satyabalu · Post by **satyabalu** » 15 May 2011, 08:14

To me it resembles(gayathri) Bhoopali/Bhoopalam.- also MD kriti"Sada chaleshwaram ?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 May 2011, 18:30

VK,
vasantakOkiladhvani was exotic, if I remember. gAyatri spans out even more. It's novel (by which I mean sounds fresh, not like a rehash). Yet, does not sound wispy. If BMK or Ravikiran don't claim to have created something similar, I better be careful as to how I address you from now on

satyabalu,
Isn't it interesting how we associate something new to what already exists! To me, it had hints of vakuLAbharaNam and karNaranjani! I was listening to them both yesterday, and may be that's why

VK,
Way to go!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 May 2011, 05:21

satyababu: thanks for taking a listen. The scale does have the boopalam ( with G2 ) and boopali aspects to it. Hopefully the M in avarohanam provides the difference.

Thanks very much, Arasi. Yes, the vk'dhvani sounded peppy whereas this one sounds a bit more sedate and serious! I like your take on it that it spans out more. On what led to the scale from the gAyatri mantra, as you wrote earlier, it is a kind of numerology. It is more like reading hidden messages from the bible using numerical codes, here I am reading hidden ragas from the vEda mantrAs

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 May 2011, 11:05

Here is a shorter one, just the pallavi in desAdi thala.

http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/gayatri-2

It is the same theme as the previous one but brings in a bit of lower sthayi to create more balance around Sa.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 16 May 2011, 19:15

Nice, VK! Saw the link on FB first. I especially liked the descending jAru on the M. The problem with ragas like these is that it's so difficult to evolve varied prayogas...it almost always ends up sounding scalar after a while. I guess variety has to come from using different octaves intelligently, which is probably what spurred you to create the second clip.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 May 2011, 22:14

Thanks Bilahari. You are quite correct that some variety can be induced by using different octaves/spanning quadrants. And that was one of the triggers for me. And the big one that provides for variability and dynamism is laya itself. In the short one, I tried to cast it along the familiar laya of numerous Tyagaraja krithis in desAdi tala.

On the 'almost always ends up sounding scalar', we will pick it up at a different time since it is an interesting topic and possibly a vast one by itself.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 May 2011, 22:23

Vk,
Pallavi in GAyatri sounds good. I am already humming a anupallavi for it. Will go thru the details of the scale later.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 16 May 2011, 23:17

VK: When you have the ragam mapped out, you should suggest it to Ranjani-Gayatri to sing for a dwi-raga pallavi!

Talking about traversing multiple octaves, one of the best examples of this that I have seen is in the sahAna Kshetrayya padam: mOra tOpu. It is very difficult to do even for someone with a good working knowledge of sahAna. There might be a commercial release of Smt T Brinda singing this.

BMK does it quite fluently in his 4 note scales like lavangi.

Just some ideas for how to build manodharma-sangeetham out of your scale.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 May 2011, 00:06

Mahavishnu: In the unlikely event that R&G accept, I better have someone with me to put me back up on the chair

I have listened to mOra tOpu a long time back, I will listen to it again. Good idea. On BMK, it is his sheer voice quality that more than compensates for any 'simply scalar' aspects that Bilahari mentions.

Given that this scale has some twists in the pUrvAnga on both ascent/descent, that is where the 'play' is with uttarAngA coming in to provide "support and bridge.". Arun has taught us the rule about ascent/descent from swaras as per Aro/Ava. That really opens up things and that is the way to go beyond linear traversal up and down the scale. A case in point here is G3M1G2R1S .

sruthi · Post by **sruthi** » 17 May 2011, 03:04

I wonder if a vakra prayoga (possibly in avarohanam) would help in defining this ragam a bit better.

satyabalu · Post by **satyabalu** » 17 May 2011, 06:54

satyababu,
Isn't it interesting how we associate something new to what already exists! To me, it had hints of vakuLAbharaNam and karNaranjani! I was listening to them both yesterday.

Arasi! I will try to migrate to a level of understanding suggested by you (going by volume of/ no of live &useful posts contributed by you to this forum I take you as a competent person to guide me on nuances-may be also for the fact that we hail from the same place-madurai I suppose!).But who is singing vaghulabharanam these days? -I have not heard this after Sri. S. Rajam gave a lecdem on this Raga in MA accompanied by Dr.V.S long back.Please forward such links -I will also look for in this forum under Raga thread.Of course TNS's Vanchithonu will support karnaranjani.THQ.I am balu not babu please.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 May 2011, 10:38

VK
Loved your new creation. As a co dabbler here is my attempt at a lyric and amateur rendering

ராகம்: காயத்ரி தாளம்: ஆதி

பல்லவி
காயத்ரி தேவியை நான் பணிந்தேன்

அனுபல்லவி
ஆபத்து நேராமல் காப்பாள் (அவள்)
(அந்த) காயத்ரி....

சரணம்
கோபத்தை அடக்க தூய வழியது
பாபத்தை போக்க அரிய மருந்து
தாபத்தை நீக்கி சாபத்தை போக்கி
முக்தியை நாடும் சக்தியை தந்திடும்
(காயத்ரி....)

The audio is at
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?as21bhoaw8nrahq

Commments please...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 May 2011, 18:50

CML,
bEsh!
Waiting for VK to chime in...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 May 2011, 19:20

Satyabalu,
I've corrected your name in my previous post.
Now, to dispel your ideas about me: yes, I'm number one when it comes to the number of posts, but somewhere near zero in my knowledge, given that the forum is peopled with rasikAs who are known for their expertise! Though they don't voice their vidvat often, there are also top notch performers in our midst.
Though I've lived away from India for a long time, Madurai still has a special spot in my heart.
Among my deficiencies, this is one--don't know how to give links

karNaranjani: you will find it in some youtube link or other. Ambujam Krishna's OM namO nArAyaNA is a popular one. Sudha Raghunathan's version is the one you may find. As for vakuLAbharaNam, Swati Tirunal's sAdhu tadA sung by Sanjay is available on youtube, I think. I've heard him sing it in a concert. Ambujam Krishna has a song in vakuLAbharaNam: OdinadAlE Edu payan? I've not heard it in ages.
Just want to tell you that I'm happy listening to music, but do not know much about it. My compositions are something which are not born out of any expertise in CM!

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 17 May 2011, 23:09

VK- Heard both your clippings of your new innovation rAga 'gAyathri'. Hears quite melodious, Hearty Congratulations!!!

To add lyrics to your tune, i suggest pl use Dhyana Sloka of gAyathri decribed in" mukthA vidruma hEma nIla dHavalaihi etc........... " Also you can incorporate the no. 24 which makes the gAyathri manthra, just like MD using 'chaturdasha bhuvana' rUpa rAga mAlika...... in "Sri Vishwanatham Bhaje"( 14 ragas- Raga Malika)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 May 2011, 00:05

vs_majunath: Thanks very much. Great suggestions for the lyrics. I will have to try that.

CML: That sounded wonderful and emotive. Great lyrics. Though I do not have the skill to translate your melody to swaras, the vibe of the raga is definitely there. Well done and thanks.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 18 May 2011, 16:56

cmlover:
Great!
Remarkable expression:-
முக்தியை நாடும் சக்தியை தந்திடும்!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2011, 18:55

VK's aalaapana is my inspiration! The raga has nice potentials.
I would love to hear him elaborate it so that I can try interesting phrases -
probably the dhyanasloka as suggested by Manjunath..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 May 2011, 19:33

CML, which one you are referring to as the 'aalaapana'? Both of the pieces had mridangam accompaniments

I am in the process of discovering the potential phrases. As it turns out it is quite broad indeed. The task is to know what to exclude so there is an aesthetic consistency. And words take the phrases to another level.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2011, 19:52

I primarily used your pallavi lines as my base.
When I wanted to move further I had no guidelines since they were repetetive.
I would love to do a viruttam in 'gayatri'. That will be easier since there are no tala restrictions.
I can do kalpana sancaaram if I get phrase lines from you (without the mridangam) with nice kaarvai...( of course within my voice limitations..)

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 19 May 2011, 16:46

vasanthakokilam wrote:Here is my attempt at raga gAyathri:

http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/a-song ... a-gayathri

VK this is your first clipping. Will it be possible to provide the full sequence of swara sancharams( music notation) you have brought out in this clipping ? This will help to hum the SWARUPAM of the raga more leisurely and the dhyana slokam can possibly be attempted. m1 g2 combi in avarahonam than m1 g3 must be the problem area! If it was only s r1 g3 p d2 s & s d2 p m1 g3 r1 s with only introducing m1 in ava with all the swaras same, life probably would have been more easy to venture. You must pardon me, if i am technically wrong. (arunk & bilahari will catch me straight away i suppose.)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 May 2011, 21:12

VSM, definitely. I do not have a written down notation since these were arrived at with trying different things until something sounded good. In the end, it was more about fitting the melody into a laya structure, the swara sequences and sancharas are fairly straightfoward. Let me work on reverse engineering the swaras and post it here. Thanks.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 May 2011, 22:57

Here are approximate transcriptions to swaras.. I wrote down the variations, however small.. You can look through this ( with a lot of repetitions with small but useful variations ). You will soon know the various patterns/sancharas that I used. I am working on the anupallavi and charanam structures.

First one ( thala wise.. I played it to a simple two beat repetition. The structure on top of that is a 6 beat rupaka initially with Ateeta eduppu, and then goes a bit free wheeling with eduppu moving between Ateetam and samam but mostly ateetam )

G3 P D2(jaru)P..(jaru)M.. G2.. R1.. S.. S R1 G3...
G3 P D2 P..(jaru)M.. G2.. R1.. S.. S R1 G3...
G3 P D2 S D2 (Jaru )P..(jaru)M.. G2.. R1.. S.. S R1 G3...
G3 P D2 S D2 (Jaru )P..(jaru)M.. G2.. R1.. S...S D2(lower sthayi) S R1 S R1 S.. S R1 G3...
G3 P(Jaru) M....(jaru) G2.... (Jaru) R2..... (jaru) S.........R1 ( time 2:45 )
-----
S R1 G2 R1 S... S R1 G2 R1 S.. S R1 G3 P...Ma. G2 R1 S....
S R1 G3 P M1.. G2 R1 S...
G3 P M1 G2... R1... S...
S D2 (lower) P (lower) D2 (lower) S R1 R1....S R1 G2 R1 S.
S R1 S R1 S R1 S R1 S R1 G2 R1 S....S R1 G3...G3 P G2 R1 S...
S R1 G3 P... M1... G2... R1... S....S R1 G3...
D2 P (jaru) M1... G2.. R1...S...S R1 G3....
G3 D2 P (jaru) M1... G2.. R1...S...... S.. S... S...S... R1
---
Second one ( this is properly aligned with desAdhi thala )

G P (Jaru) M.. G2(jaru) R1... S D2 S.. R1 G3...
G P (Jaru) M.. G2(jaru) R1(jaru).S.. S D2 S.. R1 G3...
G P (jaru and no jaru variations) M.. G2 R1(jaru) S.. S D2 S.. R1 G3...
G P M.. G2 R1 S.. D2 S S... R1 G3...
G D2(jaru) P(jaru) M1....G2 R1 S. S D2 S.. R1 G3..

G3 M1 G2... R1.... S..................

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 May 2011, 23:12

VK

gAyathri
Arohanam: S R1 G3 P D2 S
Avarohanam: S D2 P M1 G2 R1 S

Hence
S R1 G2 R1 S... is illegal since from R1 you can only ascend to G3 and not G2

Arun can clarify better!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 May 2011, 23:22

I will let Arun correct or confirm this. As per the neat rule formulated by Arun, it is legal. The rule is this..

From a swara in the Arohanam, you can Ascend to any swara in the scale (whether it is in the Aro/Ava).
From a swara in the Avarohanam, you can Descend to any swara in the scale (whether it is in the Aro/Ava).

I used this rule for a few more occurrences, in addition to the one you noticed.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 May 2011, 23:36

In that case the aro/avaro can be written as
S R1 G2/G3 P D2 S'
S' D2 P M1 G2/G3 R1 S
with G2 or G3 considered as the anya swaram... ?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 May 2011, 23:39

No, that will make many disallowed combinations allowed. ( I am ignoring your reference to anyaswarams )

For example, In the original scale definition, S R1 G3 G2 or S R1 G3 R1 etc are not allowed. But S R1 G3 M1 is allowed.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 May 2011, 00:28

I am not suggesting G2 G3 prayogam. I mean use G3 mainly in arohanam and use G2 rarely and vice versa in avrohanam. There are other examples of the alternative uses of the N2 or N3 in contexts...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 May 2011, 00:46

We do not need all those extra complexities and unusual specifications. If you put in such a lakshana, that is a different scale/raga since the scale does not necessarily prescribe 'rare uses'. With the scale as is, the sequencing rule allows for all that and prevents those that are not intended without specifying rare usages. Any rare usages and anuswaras are part of the lakshaya definition.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 May 2011, 00:50

OK!
Let us also hear from Arun...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 May 2011, 01:42

CML, agreed. There is a definite possibility I did not understand the rule properly. Longer I go with this, if I misinterpreted something, bigger the crow I will have to eat

BTW, my learning is based on the discussion here with Arun: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 317#p62317
I have not read this thread recently, so I may have mixed up things.

Also, check post #9 of this thread.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 May 2011, 02:22

cmlover wrote:gAyathri
Arohanam: S R1 G3 P D2 S
Avarohanam: S D2 P M1 G2 R1 S

Hence
S R1 G2 R1 S... is illegal since from R1 you can only ascend to G3 and not G2

cml - you keep making this error

. In spite of what supposedly the immediate/obvious interpretation most of us seem to grasp at, the interpretation of the aro/avaro is different.

Paraphrasing what Vk quoted earlier differently:
For non-vakra ragas with no special phrases/usages not captured in aro/avaro):
1. You can ascend from a swara only if it appears in the arohana (or) swaras in the arohana are those you can ascend from.
2. You can descend from a swara only if it appears in the avarohana (or) swaras in the avarohana are those you can descend from.

Thus - S R1 G2 R1 S is allowed. "R1 G2" is allowed because by itself it implies an ascent from R1. That is allowed by #1 above. "G2 R1" is allowed because it implies a descent from G2 and that is allowed by #2 above

What is not allowed e.g. is
G2 G3 or G2, M1 (ascent from G2)
and
G3 G2 or G3 R1 (descent from ga).

Hope that clarifies.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 May 2011, 03:12

Thanks Arun
I stand corrected now for the nth time

It is now clear...

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 20 May 2011, 05:07

VK- Thanks for reverse engineering and the full music notation of your first clipping. At leisure, one can hum and the nuances you have brought abt swarupam of gAyathri can be enjoyed.

Parallely, what is the following raga ?
Only introducing m1 keeping other swaras same as defined below:

Aa | s r1 g3 p d2 s* ||

Ava | s* d2 p m1 g3 r1 s ||

if only n3 is introduced for the above structure in Ava without m1- it's Bhouli !
instead of n3 we introduce m1 as shown in the above structure, what is this rAga ??
Does it already exists with a name etc ??