House/Chamber Concerts- Question..

[asangeetha]

Hi,

I am looking to jump-start the process of arranging concerts in my area. (Whitefield, Bangalore) This is quite far from the city where most good concerts are conducted so many people miss out. To get the process started and keep my costs low, I was thinking of building a community of interested people by initially arranging house/chamber concerts with talented upcoming artistes.

The question is ..Can a chamber concert be conducted successfully without a mic system? Most definitely...the concert quality should not be compromised but if the hall is fairly small , is it possible?

Would appreciate any input on this. Thanks!

Sowmya

[srikant1987]

First of all, thank you for even thinking about some such thing, asangeetha! Indeed, Banaswadi & Indiranagar are the "nearest" places to Whitefield where some concerts are held, I think.

Can a chamber concert be conducted successfully without a mic system?

Some would say they should be held that way!

It's up to the artiste, I think. Since you're planning to call "upcoming artistes" who will be mostly young, with powerful voices, the vocalists shouldn't be having any problem -- nor should violinists, flautists or percussionists -- or nadaswaram artistes.

Veena might present with some difficulty if it is a large fairly-small hall. But please don't compromise by omitting them! I have heard that earlier, veena concerts would have only ghatam accompaniment. My hunch is that veena tends to sound feeble mainly because of the relative loudness of the mridangam (or khanjira -- or thavil ). It might be worth trying veena without amplification, without mridangam. At least the nearest members of audience should be having a very good experience, with the natural sound ... it depends on the artistes, though.

[Nick H]

Some would say they should be held that way!

That always included me, until my ears began to need some amplification. Pure music, unaffected by any sound man's ideas or even lack of skills, or poor-quality equipment.

The artists must be prepared to adjust, and, in particular, the mridangist must be able to play gently. They should accept feedback without offence. So far as vocalists are concerned, I've always thought it a bit ridiculous that a professional singer cannot fill a living-room-sized hall with their voice --- but this is a subsidiary issue calling into question the way carnatic singers are [not] taught to perform.

Indeed, asangeetha, I think you are setting out to organise the ideal form of concert. Very best wishes for your project!

[Radhika-Rajnarayan]

It might be worth trying veena without amplification, without mridangam.

The legendary Veena Dhanammal used to play for a select group of connoisseurs at her home every Friday, I believe, and would play without a mridangam. That is really the ideal way to listen to the acoustic veena.
I have played a chamber music concert at Mysore without microphone and amplifier systems, but with a mridangam - it was well received, but it was an electronic veena concert!

[asangeetha]

Hi,

Many thanks to those who replied to this question. I myself am a fan of the 'unplugged' version , will try it out and report back later.

[Sundara Rajan]

I was fortunate to listen to a mikeless vocal presentation in Bangalore by MDR with only mridangam accompaniment in the early seventies during a vacation in India. It was an awesome experience. Of course, being MDR and the hall being only 20' x 25' there was no need for any amplification. Is not Chamber music supposed to be mikeless ? Good luck with your attempt.

[Nick H]

Yes, I think it is supposed to be micless, but there are two unfortunate facts. One is that voice projection, even across a living room, is not taught (or learned by necessity) to the current generation, and the other is that many of us, the audience, do not have the hearing of our youth.

At the wonderful series of Musiri house concerts, amplification is used, with a small speaker system. The same is true of concerts at the house of Veena J & J. The greatest difficulty is with acoustic veena. Either the instrument was designed to be listened to in a six-foot-square room, or playing techniques must have been very much more heavy-handed in pre-electronic days!

Electronics were brought into the Rasikas series of concerts primarily so that they could be recorded, but ended up having amplification and speakers attached too. However, there was always a light touch on the mixer sliders, and the speakers only ever supported the artists.

Anyway, there have been threads and threads about right and wrong use of amplification in carnatic concerts, and I probably posted 30% of the complaints on them --- so I'll shut up about this now!

[rajeshnat]

asangeetha
Some real experience , in the concert series that we held , for one particular vocal concert when the power went off , we could hear only the vocal and mrudangam but the violin was not heard at all, it was a chamber concert atmosphere . So i guess in order to achieve the right relative volume of vocal, violin and percussion we need the microphone for sure.

On a side note we can hear mA jAnaki in kAmbodhi without mike , what when the musician sings kamakshi ambA in bhairavi, is there a chance to hear without the mike.

Good luck on your initiative ,report both mike or mikeless concert.

[Nick H]

So i guess in order to achieve the right relative volume of vocal, violin and percussion we need the microphone for sure.

It depends on the artists being able to balance themselves. Simply, they do not all have this skill.

I've mentioned, at length, the dependency that vocalists have acquired for the mic, but I have never thought about the violin. Maybe they don't learn to bow hard enough?

[srikant1987]

Maybe they don't learn to bow hard enough?

Guess so. It actually is convenient not to bow hard enough.

[ShrutiLaya]

On a side note we can hear mA jAnaki in kAmbodhi without mike , what when the musician sings kamakshi ambA in bhairavi, is there a chance to hear without the mike.

Exactly! My personal feeling - and I know I might ruffle some feathers here - is that singing styles have changed/evolved over the past few years to take advantage of the microphone. Instead of flat out full throated high pitched singing designed to be heard across a temple courtyard, we have softer and more nuanced singing, bringing out the feelings and bhavam implied by the lyric. Of course, in a small room, it would still be possible to do justice to these without a mike. After all, music classes are (mostly! Except for Skype classes) conducted without mikes and one has no difficulty hearing the teacher. It would be interesting to hear back from asangeetha about their experience.

- Sreenadh

[Nick H]

Feathers ruffled

Softer and more nuance? Or the singer just never learned to use the power of their lungs and project their voices.

Within the context of carnatic music, perhaps you could be right, but I don't think there is any reason why projection should be at the cost of nuance. It is something elementary to auditorium performing arts --- except ours!

[Sundara Rajan]

Rajesh's take on violin accompaniment requiring amplification is quite correct. That is the primary reason why Chowdiah modified his violin in the forties so it could be heard from a distance, but in my opinion causing loss of quaity. Even after introduction of amplifiers Chowdiah continued to employ his modified violin. Compare old recordings of Chowdiah with present day violin recordings to appreciate the difference !

[srikant1987]

Rajesh's take on violin accompaniment requiring amplification is quite correct. That is the primary reason why Chowdiah modified his violin in the forties so it could be heard from a distance, but in my opinion causing loss of quaity.

I hear that in Sri Chowdiah's days, there used to be a mic only for the vocalist, which was "shared" by the accompanists also. We are currently talking about chamber concerts, where we won't amplify the voice either.

On Sri Chowdiah's violin: http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/12/14/stor ... 720300.htm

[Sundara Rajan]

I had listened to Chembai ( wtih and without shirt !) accompanied by Chowdiah and Palghat Mani Iyer ( again with and without mike) The trio's performane was a sight to see as well as to hear. Those were remarkable memorable performances . However, I found the "nAdam" of Chowdiah's violin somewhat jarring. Nowadays I notice a few violinists employing five stringed violins that are not as harsh as was Chowdiah's. Just my opinion.

[Nick H]

I'm not a violinist, corrections accepted... but I believe that "harsh" is nothing to do with the number of strings, as only one is used at a time.

[Sundara Rajan]

Nick: Neither am I more knowledgeable about violins ! However, if only one string is used at a time, then as you said, it is not the number of strings, but the gauge and/or the material of the strings that made Chowdiah's violin less pleasing to hear. When one of the stings in my wife's veena broke in 1962 , I took the broken string to several guitar shops in Chicago to get the closest match for a replacement. Even with the best match I could get, the 'nAdam' was different ! We had to get a replacement from India.

[bilahari]

I would imagine a truly open-throated singer would not be drowned by the violin. Asangeetha, kudos for wanting to initiate chamber music in your area!

And for the record, I have only heard Chowdiah in recordings and have always found his playing jarring as well. I thought it had more to do with his tendency to bow adjacent strings (possibly due to their proximity as a result of having more of them), creating additional noise. The multiple strings also seemed to reduce the fluency of his music because of constant switching between strings.

[rajeshnat]

I had listened to Chembai ( wtih and without shirt !) accompanied by Chowdiah and Palghat Mani Iyer ( again with and without mike) The trio's performane was a sight to see as well as to hear.

...

I was fortunate to listen to a mikeless vocal presentation in Bangalore by MDR with only mridangam accompaniment in the early seventies during a vacation in India

SundararAjan Sir,
May I know where you heard Chembai concert ,was it a normal kutcheri sabha , roughly how many were there in the crowd. Was that a very short concert etc

Also May I know who was mrudangam accompaniment for MDR in bangalore.?

[sr_iyer]

Regarding Sri T CHowdiah's violin, without getting into its harshness or otherwise, here is a small technical detail. The violin has four strings mandra sa, mandra pa, madhya sa, madhya pa. In the 7 string violin, Sri TC paired each of the following strings -- mandra pa, madhya sa, madhya pa -- is paired with another string closely located, which was tuned exactly one octave below the correspoding string (e. g. the madhya pa string was paired with another string one octave below it and located close by -- also, 3x2 + 1 main mandra sa string = 7 strings) . Sri TC used to finger and bow the paired strings together in his endeavour to achieve a fuller sound. However, the fingers do not fall perpendicular to the string-orientation, and hence it is more challenging in the 7 string design to achieve exactly the same swarasthana in the paired strings in spite of their closeness. Bowing two strings consistently in continuous musical passages also poses challenges in the 7 string design.

The five string violin (as used by some contemporary violin artistes in CM) is essentially a 'normal violin' with mandra sa, mandra pa, madhya sa, madhya pa and an additional tAra sa string. Since the additional string here is used for extending the (frequency/octave) range of the violin, it would not be apt to compare the two designs - Nick has already made a pertinent comment in this regard.

PS: (I read sometime back, about a poster's enquiry on why perceiving or localization of ocatve was more challenging with Sri TC's violin. The above detail IMHO would answer that too)

[bilahari]

Sr_iyer, thank you for that informative post.

[Nick H]

Indeed. Very interesting.

I fear we are way off topic from asangeetha's house concerts, but perhaps those with knowledge might start a thread on violin sound over history? It occurs to me that the violin came to India as the fiddle, a folk instrument, whereas more recent players will have taken on board the Western classical sound either as well as, or instead of, the European folk sound.

[ShrutiLaya]

Sri TC used to finger and bow the paired strings together in his endeavour to achieve a fuller sound. However, the fingers do not fall perpendicular to the string-orientation, and hence it is more challenging in the 7 string design to achieve exactly the same swarasthana in the paired strings in spite of their closeness.

This is very interesting. If the objective had been to simply increase the volume of the sound, he might have simply tuned the second string to the same octave. But this looks like more than that, an attempt to change the character of the sound..

I wonder if one can replicate this effect electronically, to see how it would sound if exactly the same note+gamakam is played along one octave below. It does add a certain "fullness" if you try it on a piano ..

- Sreenadh

[uday_shankar]

However, the fingers do not fall perpendicular to the string-orientation, and hence it is more challenging in the 7 string design to achieve exactly the same swarasthana in the paired strings in spite of their closeness. Bowing two strings consistently in continuous musical passages also poses challenges in the 7 string design.

Very good. There's also one more difficulty when playing on two strings of different gauge tuned an octave apart. This occurs wrt chitravina/gotuvadyam and has to do with octave shortening. The stretched string is not a perfect harmonic oscillator and when the gauge gets heavier (as in the lower Sa of a paired string), the spots for the different swarsthanas have a progressive shortenting. As we play higher up the string, the difference becomes more palpable. This means that if you put the chitravina slide at the mel Sa for the shadja, the lower one could sound a little higher. This is why you might sometimes notice maestro chitravina ravikiran alter the angle of his teflon kattai away from the perpendicular (often dynamically for different notes!!). This is why too, sophisitcated guitars all have the facility to alter the position of the individual bridge of each string, so as to adjust what they call the "action" of the guitar.

So Shri Chowdiah had a triple whammy and nothing short of his genius was able to produce all that wonderful music.

[Nick H]

By introducing a second string at a different sruti, albeit an exact octave difference, that which is often denied to exist in carnatic music comes into play: harmony.

As to experimenting with the sound, I have seen it done electronically to a normal violin by the sound engineer, using an effects box. Whilst such a box is probably expensive, its software equivalent (in Linux at least) might even be free.

Uday. Im sure, would know about both my comments?

[uday_shankar]

that which is often denied to exist in carnatic music comes into play: harmony.

Not really Nick. When multiple voices or instruments are moving in parallel, lock-step but an octave or octaves apart, it still constitutes only unison singing or monophony. Polyphony/harmony involves the additional complexity of a parallel melodic variation, either in pitch or time, based on standard rules of harmony.

This unison or monophony is what we often hear in "vaadya vrindas", the instrumental ensembles in AIR and doordarshan that belt out Carnatic melodies.

[Nick H]

OK, correction accepted. Thanks Uday.

[varsha]

http://www.narthaki.com/info/rt/rt23a.html
Pls see the post dated Sept 22nd-2008 .

Going back to Mikeless ,THAT is the way forward . Provided the artists acceptance has been arranged.And the noise from the surroundings are not a disturbance . And you dont have blokes with nothing else to do , drop in and finish the remainder of the days newspaper there.
In 1982 , the power went off during a concert of Trichur Ramchandran Concert at Krishna Gana Sabha. What followed was glorious . Audience was asked to move to the front. And he continued in majestic style .
A rapidly vanishing artform - singing without mikes.
Next best to hearing a Singer practice at home with only a drone for Company. Good Luck.