How important is tani Avartanam

ganeshkant · Post by **ganeshkant** » 22 Nov 2011, 12:28

This topic is inspired by V.Kalidas’s article about the decorum of rasikAs during concerts in The Hindu on 20/11 and the subsequent responses to this article in the letters to the editor. Out of these one particular response by N.Chandrasekaran today 22/11, throws some light on people walking out during tani Avartanam.I can understand his concern and find it to be genuine after a bit of thinking.I don’t understand the layA intricacies and tani doesn’t interest me beyond say 5 mins.max.,though my understanding and judgement are comparatively better about percussion support during songs .Since I feel very delicate to walk out of a concert, I engage myself by trying to put tAlam so that my kanakku may improve.After all there is so much to learn in life.I try to understand tani the same way I keep guessing about certain people.

After reading this response I honestly feel that We can do away with extensive tani Avartanams.Also next time I may walk out during tani with less guilt .But TMK is some one who may not like this. Any ways I just want to air my opinion and seek responses also.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 22 Nov 2011, 12:57

How many in the crowd understand carnatic music or raga alapana or kriti or swara singing. Many come there to exhibit their dresses, sarees and jewelry and have a coffee and chat or meet up with friends (socialize).
Genuine music lovers may be very few who come there with full understanding.
Let us thus leave it at that and dont make a fuss about it to say we can do away with thani just because there is an exodus. It is rather absurd.
Let the artists have the freedom in selecting kritis and ragas and talas and we the music lovers the freedom of what we want to listen to from that !!!
Best way to control exodus, lock all the exits and open only after the program is over unless there is an emergency

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Nov 2011, 13:19

<cross-posted with fduddy, with whom I very much agree, with the one proviso that genuine love of music, although enhanced by niderstanding, does not require it>

.................

Actually, I confess to having not read the original article. Someone in today's paper accuses the tani of being stale, and I feel a bit the same about the subject of walking out as soon as it starts.

One of the silliest things I ever read in any paper is the letter saying it is all the main artist's fault for "allowing the tani." Weird!

Anyway, I find that this problem is very much less than it used to be, so perhaps the topic is, indeed, stale. A few people will need to move during any concert. Those of us with weaker bladders, or those expecting some really urgent call should, simply, sit by a door, or at least by an aisle.

Do I enjoy every minute of every tani? No. I don't enjoy 150 ways to play ThaDgiGiNaThom, unless it sounds good, and musical, regardless of the kanakkol. I have little interest, and less ability, in numbers. I also do not enjoy listening to the same thing played (or sung, or played on an instrument) in several different speeds: it is a demonstration of laya and virtuosity, but, really, little else (Hello L Subramaniam! It isn't just the mridangists who do this!).

Of course, it is not just the mridangists who engage in kanakkol-based performance either, and I have to ask those whose reason for leaving is that they don't understand it, why then, do they not run away as soon as it occurs in kalpana swara? Of course, my personal rule applies: if it is musical, the calculation doesn't matter, except to those who enjoy calculations --- and I would (and have) run away from any musician whose performance was coldly mathematical.

The tani does have to earn its place. If anyone feels that the performer failed to do that, it is valid. Certainly some seem to outstay their welcome, and some materially detract from the feeling that the main artist has just spent two hours building. Very, very rarely, and with some exceptional artists, the tani can be the high point of the concert. Not sure it ought to be --- but it does happen.

As to seeking ways to enjoy it, well, if you don't ...you don't. I can't see that learning the kannakol would then be any more than homework in an unpopular subject. Please, don't regard it as a challenge to talam-keeping ability (unless done silently): that is just a bad habit that annoys the rest of us. People can, maybe, give themselves a chance to simpply enjoy by forgetting entirely, just for a few minutes, the mental obsession with understanding!

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 22 Nov 2011, 13:33

The music season specially has become so goddamn commercial oriented that the crowd in the food courts are more than the crowd in the auditorium (many or most of the times). So what the heck are they talking about audience knowledge of music, exodus etc etc.
In couple of concerts in the narada gana sabha auditorium in the morning concert where youngsters sing, there were hardly 10-20 people to listen and motivate the singer and the accompanist, The crown in the canteen were roughly about 50, all clad in the best of attires chit chatting !!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Nov 2011, 16:24

Out of your 10-20, probably 2/3rds were related to the artists, and the other 1/3rd were non-channai-ites sincerely appreciating something that they cannot do all year.

There remains an over-all buzz to "the season." There is also the chance of bumping into people from other countries that one has not seen in a while.

Maybe what I'm saying here is that "the season" is a social event! In many ways, I prefer concert-going during the other eleven months of the year.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 22 Nov 2011, 17:08

This thread talks about this article in the hindu(bit allover the place article I guess that is part of the season) http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/open-pa ... 642825.ece

Nick
I am with you , i prefer concert going in the remaining 11 months. But i guess just like olympics is held once in 4 years , where they pack all sports in 15 days, there is this yearly season that is packed .

mahesu · Post by **mahesu** » 24 Nov 2011, 20:11

This could also be attributed to the mediocrity of performers creeping in - either as main artist or accompanist. This brings down the concert value and thus the interest of the rasika to stay inside the auditorium. We have heard that in the golden olden days it was very difficult to earn a concert slot and once in, the performer always maintained highest standards.

Coming to the exodus during Tani avarthanam, agree that the monotonous way of playing (be it the beginning of a tani or Mohra / Korvai). Some attribute this to tradition, though there could be some innovation done here. I am not relating this to singing Varnam as main composition though.

As a mark of respect to the vidwat of the performing artist, we should avoid movement during any concert, causing distraction to the performer as well as a serious rasika. An interval can be tried in longer concert, but most of the slots are of short duration now adays, not allowing to try this option too.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Nov 2011, 05:33

I was thinking about this thread while driving to work yesterday. The perception of monotonousness ( perceived as mono tone ) is more so if there is only one percussion artist, usually just the mridangist.

I thought of an idea. Let me put that down here for whatever it is worth. After an initial few minutes of just mridangist playing, somehow incorporate the vocalist and the violinist in the Koraippu section. The exact format is up to the creativity of the team. I do not see much of a problem for the violinist. The vocalist can use solkattus or some other creative vocalizations. Granted, not all artists may sign up for this but it can be tried with some artists who show some enthusiasm for layam.

The focus is on layam and the percussionist is the leader and the others are followers. They may back off during farans, mohra and korvai which are usually very dynamic and have easier to infer structure, anyway. They can join at the end like they do now. This will break the perceived monotonousness, inject some newness and add some dynamism, while preserving the notions of classicism.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 25 Nov 2011, 06:09

vk - I am sure some artistes like Abhishek or Seshachari (Hyderabad brothers) will be up for this since they are both percussionists as well! TMK will be up for anything too !

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Nov 2011, 07:51

Yes.. I can see Abhishek doing this. That will be awesome if they try and see how well it works.

anandasangeetham · Post by **anandasangeetham** » 25 Nov 2011, 11:09

i have also been giving some thought to this. In my view i think this (exodus) is more to do with non understanding of the performance than monotone....this does not mean that all rasikas understand the ragam, swara exercises and the variation in tala during the swarasinging, neraval....however it is easier for anyone to just hum a tune irrespective of whether it follows the raga structure or adhers to the sruti....most of the rasikas just want to hum and it gives them pleasure....many of us rasikas will always hum some song or try some alapanai and even try some swara korvais....but have any of us done some konnakol? this may some downright ridiculous...but then again just for the sake of arguement have we done that? we may try to bang on some almirah, wooden box, table etc for the one-of mriduangam style beats but then thats it....we do not even know what that converts into sollus...(I am speaking mainly for the laymen like me and not for the knowledgeable ones here)....since it is easy for mnay of us to hum we have a liking to that and stay during that part of the concert.....since we are suggesting many ways of getting the attention of the rasikas...just a thought again....why not have the tani during the second song of the concert....like after the varnam or pillayar song just get into the main with a medium alapanai and then give the percussionist a tani...this will well may be very radical will definitely raise many eyebrows..but then again this will give a chance for us to understand if the exodus is due to monotone or lack of knowledge / appreciation skills....it is not always necessary to give the tani ofter the main song doing an alaborate alapanai....Once BMK asked the mrudangist to do the tani AFTER the main...he told the audience ...pavam kai valikkum..for he had dealt witht eh main for quite some time and he sang a very small krithi..if I remember right it was Hindolam and had only one charana...this was at the auditorium at Chetpet some two three years back.

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 25 Nov 2011, 14:26

Of course the Tani avarthanam is important. Look at it another way - after a couple of hours of non-stop melody, isn't it a nice change to listen to pure rhythm?
I wonder why, in the North, (not so much north - in Pune, actually), hundreds of people can sit and listen to tabla solo festivals lasting hours, enjoying every bit of it, while here.....

But we do have a problem here. Maybe it is lack of understanding, or being suddenly subjected to a long stretch of pure rhythm.
A thought - crazy maybe - but just brainstorming...why not take the audience gently from the 'shallow end' to the 'deep end' , by first having a few 'sawaal-jawaabs' for a couple of items. Then (this is really crazy but hey, we need to do something, right?) a 'mini-tani' which has 'jawaabs' by the main artist TO the phrases by the percussion - sort of 'vocalising' or 'instrumentalising' the longer percussion sollu-s (anyway they are practically doing it with those long-winded muktayis

). Then have a regular short tani after the sub-main, and a regular tani after the main. Maybe the regular tani can be a bit shorter too.

Let's make an attempt. The amazing vidwat of our percussion SHOULD be appreciated by more people!

anandasangeetham · Post by **anandasangeetham** » 25 Nov 2011, 14:39

this idea also seems very sensible....a small initiation in small doses may make people understand and appreciate ...
i came to the conclusion that the lack of understanding is the main cause of the exodus after having witnessed such over a long period of time...irrespective of the time/day/type/venue/entry of the concert. you can have a concert in nthe morning people go out you keep in the evening from 3-4-5-6-7-8-9 people go....you have temple concert people go.... you have a free concert people go....

another funny thought ..why not incentivise this listening? give SKC (Sweet - Karam - Coffee) omly during thani and it SHOULD BE CONSUMED ONLY DURING TANI AND INSIDE THE HALL ITSELF...ONE MORE CONDITION NO NOISE WHILE EATING)...sorry if this utterly ridiculous or hurts the self respect of the rasikas..i never meant to do that.....

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Nov 2011, 16:24

give SKC (Sweet - Karam - Coffee) omly during thani...

According to me, a person needs balls to sit through a major main piece and tani.

Sesame balls! ]

metnanda · Post by **metnanda** » 25 Nov 2011, 21:52

While respect to the vidwans and percusionists is a point well taken, the artists also have to take a fare portion of the blame. The concerts nowadays are oriented more towards gimmicks, and melody is given a go by. The artists are using the concerts to display their technicalities and intricacies of carnatic music. One rarely finds an artists singing a good carnatic composition, just to highlight its melody, raga bhava, and meaning. Good melody and rhythm are basic attributes even common man can appreciate. While RTP's do not mean much to him. May be long tani's also falls in the same category. If the artists give more importance to melody, good raga bhava and proper tempo selection ( i.e go back to the basics ) concerts will be more meaningful to a lot more people. A lot of people hesitate to attend concerts because they feel their ignorance may be embarassing. RTP's , extensive alapana, neraval, swara kalpana, tani's should be for specific concerts which are held in vidwat sabhas like music academy, and not for the general concerts, held as a part of Ramanavami, Krishnastami, Ganesha festival, in temples etc.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Nov 2011, 22:35

RTP's , extensive alapana, neraval, swara kalpana, tani's should be for specific concerts

How could you take the soul out of the music and still call it carnatic music?

But ok, lets imagine this brings in a few more people. I can tell you waht to do next:

1. You add accompaniment by flute, violin, veena and tabla to give an orchestrated effect.

2. You add keyboard.

3. You tweak the rhythm a liitle.

4. You add a drum kit.

Perhaps then, you have a form of music that may be more attractive to certain people, but you do not have classical carnatic music any longer, and most of the members of this forum, along with a lot of other people that I see at concerts, will be staying at home, with their tapes, CDs and the internet.

Dumbing down is not any answer, let alone the answer.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 26 Nov 2011, 04:47

A classic example is Susheela Raman now settled in Australia who is doing exactly what you are saying. Google her name, you will get all kinds of CM rendered for Western audience perhaps. Since she was brought up in England, you may have known her before even we knew.

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 26 Nov 2011, 05:40

Shri Raman Avl,
Thanx for the information. Susheela Raman can sing CM too that she got inherited from her paternal aunt
{Kumari Ambujam} a versatile C M vocalist who died at a very young age.

Thanjavooran 26 11 2011

anandasangeetham · Post by **anandasangeetham** » 26 Nov 2011, 10:05

during the sangeerthana choodamani award function (this year my uncle Shri O S Sundar was awarded ) Shri Y Prabhu informed that to attract more rasikas for the concerts he had mandated to the artistes (during this season at KGS)to sing more of small krithis without too much alapanai, neraval and swarakalpana so that the rasikas who may not have the knowledge will also enjoy and come in huge numbers....similarly we can also think of tani less concerts for the afternoon slots or for concerts less than 2 hours..though this may seem to be unfair to the percussion artists in my opinion they can add much more value by accompanying during the krithi renditions...during the gaps...swara and neravals....which will be more appealing to the laymen rasikas. it will also be less of a humiliation as they will not give the opportunity for the exodus.....

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Nov 2011, 12:24

Shri Y Prabhu informed that to attract more rasikas for the concerts he had mandated to the artistes (during this season at KGS)to sing more of small krithis without too much alapanai, neraval and swarakalpana so that the rasikas who may not have the knowledge will also enjoy and come in huge numbers

Was the theory justified? Did it happen? Did the large numbers turn up, or did the few faithful just stay away?

Susheela Raman does something different. Some might call it fusion, some might not. Yes, I have heard her (at least via CD). She does what she does extremely well, but her presentation of the sacred in the style of the rock concert is not considered appropriate (per discussions of some years back) by many here, which I can appreciate. Her style is nothing like the filmified "light" classical music that is already with us.

anandasangeetham · Post by **anandasangeetham** » 26 Nov 2011, 12:54

Dear Nick,

Was the theory justified? Did it happen? Did the large numbers turn up, or did the few faithful just stay away?...

Shri Y Prabhu said that he is trying this during this music season...hence we may have to wait till this season is over and await the outcome...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Nov 2011, 13:11

My first reaction to what metnanda wrote in post #15 was similar to Nick's. If you take out alapana, niraval and kalpanaswara out of the concert, it would not resemble a CM concert. While that is true, metnanda is saying something else, which I inferred on second reading. For some occasions, have a concert which focuses strictly on the bhava/emotion codified in the compositions.. It will not be a traditional carnatic music concert. May be it should be called a composition concert within the carnatic music system. May be it is 'applied' carnatic music. In this context, niravals will definitely have a place.

May be a compromise format is a couple of minutes of alapana to set the mood of the raga, full blown focus and exposition of the composition with niravals and a few rounds of kalpanaswaras. This should not be billed as a regular CM concert, it will be disappointing to people who go to such concerts expecting a 45 minute main, a 20 minute sub-main etc. There will be a main alright, but the main is in terms of a weighty composition that gets an elaborate treatment.

There have been thematic concerts on the trinities and some padam concerts roughly along this format.

Not that I personally would attend more concerts if such a format is followed, but I know a lot of people who know CM through the songs and who get very bored at long alapanas and the "main" and the "sub-main" are the most testing time for them

It may be attractive to such folks. I have also observed that the same folks like viruththam very much so this should not be treated as watered down CM.

(This may not be the same as what Y Prabhu has in mind )

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 26 Nov 2011, 13:11

There are two dimensions to this. One, the standard of the main artists and two, the standard of the accompanying ones. Let us accept the fact, that the yester year greats (and to an exrtent, the previous generation audience) have been more knowledgeable and more respectful in their approach and the attitude towards the accompaniments in general (Ok, let us restrict ourselves discussuing specifically the percussion department).

There are numerous instance of greats like Chembai encouraging artists like PSP, TVG, UKS (Please assume honorific before all the vidwans' names) etc to give their best, by CREATING/ GIVING THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO (Am not shouting here, it is just just to emphasis the fact) by giving 5 thanis in a concert. Trichy Sankaran told in our rasikas meet that Alathur Subbier used to recite the kOrvais as and when PSP and PMI play them in the thani. So when the audience see such involvement and respect the main artist gives to the thani, they (atleast some of them if not many) will also show some respect. If the main artists themselves dont show any involvement, you ant expect much from the audience.

Now to be To be fair to the vocalists and to the audience, do we have anyone today in the league of UKS, Raghu, Sankaran etc.? The kind of embellishment which they provided and lifeted those concerts to stratoshperic heights is not to be seen today. Again we can pick some names, but sadly they fall prey to the first situation (Main artiste not allowing them to showcase their full capability). Wasnt the case with the previous generation main artists. The problem here is interlinked between the main artists and the percussion vidwans.

Sometime back forumite Sri. KNV raised a similar point in our forum about the declining quality of mrudangam vidwans today. The brutal reality of today is the so called top vidwans dont prefer to have top notch accompanists with them. They just prefer time keepers and not mrudangam vidwans.

So its not totally correct to fault the public about walking out on thanis, ignoring such realities.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Nov 2011, 13:26

vasanthakokilam wrote:If you take out alapana, niraval and kalpanaswara out of the concert, it would not resemble a CM concert

Many years ago, one of our members made a distinction beteween a recital (presenting what was taught) and a concert (where along with presenting what was taught, there is display of individual creativity and virtuosity).....presenting songs without AlApana, nereval, or k.svarams should perhaps be called a recital....

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Nov 2011, 13:44

Ravi, true if it is a straightforward subtraction. Such recitals is not what I had in mind. ( We will have to leave the niravals in since that is part of the sahityabhava ). Singing a composition in one's own interpretation is the main focus and quite different and a far cry from reciting what was taught. That is definitely not easy. I was thinking of some artists who can pull this off. Tadepalli Lokanatha Sarma came to my mind. I am sure there are others.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Nov 2011, 14:18

vasanthakokilam wrote:My first reaction to what metnanda wrote in post #15 was similar to Nick's. If you take out alapana, niraval and kalpanaswara out of the concert, it would not resemble a CM concert. While that is true, metnanda is saying something else, which I inferred on second reading. For some occasions, have a concert which focuses strictly on the bhava/emotion codified in the compositions.. It will not be a traditional carnatic music concert. May be it should be called a composition concert within the carnatic music system. May be it is 'applied' carnatic music. In this context, niravals will definitely have a place.

Yes indeed. There is room for some flexibility, and some experiment, with the concert format "standard" a it is today, and I do think that this should happen, even although I also think that the "standard" is something that, give or take an aspect here or there, most of us are comfortable with.

It is also not certain at all that such experimentation should dumb down the program. The Narada Gana Sabha series seeks to explore the mind of Thyagaraja, concentrating on lyrics and minimising alapana and swara, if not niraval as well. The two concerts that I attended have been deeply beautiful and deeply serious musical presentations. Sorry, I can't remember if the tani was omitted: it might have been, or was certainly minimised. These concerts are an example of what metnanda wrote, but they would hardly have attracted the crowds that might have been in his mind, if I read it correctly.

Now to be To be fair to the vocalists and to the audience, do we have anyone today in the league of UKS, Raghu, Sankaran etc.?

We still have two out of three of your own examples, for a start!

I agree that the main artist does a lot to set the tone. I particularly enjoy it when the main artist obviously enjoys the contribution of their accompanists, both violin and percussion, and I think that their obvious involvement does help to carry the audience along. It is not everybody's way to externalise their enjoyment, and I don't assume that they don't have it because they don't show it --- but sometimes a main artist is clearly 'taking time off,' and, if they do, the audience is encouraged to do so too.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Nov 2011, 14:40

>It is also not certain at all that such experimentation should dumb down the program.

Right. It should be structured and executed in such a way that it is still the same classical music.

Even if such a format takes off and there are regular such concerts, it should not replace the standard format concerts. These things tend to create unexpected reactions/results. May be, there will be more RTP concerts to cater to the top 1% rasikas who have had enough of this mass popularity concerts

vandemataram · Post by **vandemataram** » 26 Nov 2011, 21:51

My question is, Why violin? Why tambura? let the main artist perform alone, pocket the money and walk away? On a serious note, the audeince are to blame for the step child treatment given to accompanists. Main artists are allowed the impression that the crowd comes because of them. Outside of India, is it simple economics. If a concert costs 1000$, it is in the best interest of the visiting artists to pocket the maximum amount for themselves. They settle for available mridangists in the towns they perform and pay either very little or nothing. The mridangists hardly paractice and have no interest or skills to provide a good thani. Western audience, mostily ignorant of our music, actually enjoy the thani and solo by violin rathen than a vocal piece. Even fro Indian audience, in India or outside, a well timed and well prepared thani will go a long way in instilling the sense of rhythm. The mridangist can also explain the nuiances of the thani. At the status quo, the main artists will keep sermonizing that "shruti mata, laya pita", making sure the pita is truley hen pecked pita!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Nov 2011, 02:18

let the main artist perform alone, pocket the money and walk away?

Some of them do ...or, at least, almost do.

I only recently became aware of a "business model" where the main artist takes a lump sum from the sponsor, effectively hiring the hall for the performance, and paying a very small percentage to the accompanists. Well, I heard it ... I cannot say how rare or frequent it might be.

At the status quo, the main artists will keep sermonizing that "shruti mata, laya pita", making sure the pita is truley hen pecked pita!

Very nicely put!

I think there are certain principles, which I admit are not always observed, among which are that the tani should be appropriate and that the player[s] should not outstay their welcome. These two measures are entirely elastic, even maybe unique to each concert. It is not always appropriate for a mridangist to play for half an hour, even if he is one of the big names. On the other hand, when there are two or more percussionists 'on the bench' there is going to be an expectation of a tani which is more of a stand-alone item in the program. In this instance, the responsibility of the mridangist to set the nature and timing is very great. The attitude of the main artists has been mentioned: in these full-bench tanis, it can even be one of sitting back to enjoy, and encourage, the show.

VijayR · Post by **VijayR** » 27 Nov 2011, 05:18

anandasangeetham wrote:during the sangeerthana choodamani award function (this year my uncle Shri O S Sundar was awarded ) Shri Y Prabhu informed that to attract more rasikas for the concerts he had mandated to the artistes (during this season at KGS)to sing more of small krithis without too much alapanai, neraval and swarakalpana so that the rasikas who may not have the knowledge will also enjoy and come in huge numbers....

Are you serious? :@

[Begin rant]

I am sorry... this level of interference from a sabha secretary is just uncalled for! How can Prabhu "mandate" to artists what they should sing? Am I the only one to think that this is seriously messed up? I hope at least one artist told him to his face to leave the concert planning to the artist and that if he doesn't like it, he can go take a hike. Seriously, I am appalled that he even tried to pull a stunt like this... would he dare tell a vidwan such as SSI or Lalgudi what to perform? Just imagine the response if he did.

This is a classic case of interference from management that so often causes organizations to go down the drain... For example, it is one of the big reasons that caused the demise of such a glorious entity as AT&T Bell Labs.

Finally, this only re-emphasizes how commercialized things have become (something that has been mentioned multiple times in this thread and others).

[End Rant]

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 27 Nov 2011, 06:39

Some ideas to stop the exodus

1. All exits to the loo should be only one-way .Folks should be able to get back only to their seats and not the outside world .
2.Mrudangam artist to be seated facing the audience and exit path should pass right in front of his face .
3.Separate sections for laya-abled and laya-disabled among the audience . No Thani avarthanam if the laya-abled strength is less than ten.
4.Mridangam artist to have the choice of walking out - with full remuneration - with the folks leaving . And have a chat in the loo / coffee bar , if they wish .
5.Thani avarthanam to switch over to gana paattu beats - dak daka dak daka - when folks start moving out .

These blokes who get up and walk out are the hardiest of their breed . Nothing less shameful than the above will stop them from continuing to disrespect a beautiful tradition .

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 27 Nov 2011, 08:04

For those who rush to the canteen during Tani for fear of losing the special item of the evening, the latest crazy tamil film song by Dhanush' 'kolaveri' can be played. They will enjoy the beats of the song.Erode sir , how do you like this?

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 27 Nov 2011, 09:02

As JV mentioned in his recent interview in Podhigai all doors should be downed.
Why can not Thani be can given in the beginning itself as done in Harikatha?
Thanjavooran 27 11 2011

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 27 Nov 2011, 09:28

thanjavooran wrote:Why can not Thani be can given in the beginning itself as done in Harikatha?
Thanjavooran 27 11 2011

Am not sure about thani being included in an harikathA program , unless it is Visakha Hari doing the same and the listener getting confused as to what is really happening (as to whether it is harikatha, sangeetha upanyasam or a kutcheri).

But thani in the beginning of a concert - Yes; UKS sir has told us many instances about vidwans like Chembai, SSI giving them thani immediately after vAtApi. But then today, even "vAtApi" is being sung/ pushed just before the mangalam :devil:

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 27 Nov 2011, 12:27

[quote="semmu86..... But then today, even "vAtApi" is being sung/ pushed just before the mangalam :devil:[/quote]

Cheeky indeed :tmi:
Having changed the varnam / vathapi order, next will be thani to start with (first item) followed by mangalam, thukkadas and kuthu pattu - The guys who does will be lauded and awarded the next Sangeetha Kolanidhi award

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Nov 2011, 12:53

>Sangeetha Kolanidhi award

Funny!..First Kolaveri and now Kolanidhi

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 27 Nov 2011, 15:26

Semmu86 wrote 'Am not sure about thani being included in an harikathA program ,'

I may kindly be excused for detracking from the main thread. Mangudi Chidambara Bhagavathar, Sivaramakrishna Bhagavathar [ who lost his leg in a train accident ], Thiruvaiyaru Annasamy Bhagavathar and Mannargudi Sambasiva Bhagavathar were all musicians turned Harikatha exponents. Just to entertain rasikas , elaborate Alabana, Niraval, Swaraprastharam and Thani were included in their programme. Embar and TSB were also following the same schedule.
Thanjavooran 27 11 2011

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Nov 2011, 22:37

In the first post of this topic, ganeshkant said "Also next time I may walk out during tani with less guilt ". But this thread has gone in the usual direction of putting that guilt back in

We do not need to make such people feel they are doing something wrong.
Why not let people walk out if they do not like the thani as long they can do so without disturbing others. The artist community can do a lot of things to change people's attitude to stick around and enjoy the thani using the various measures we talked about in this thread and more, but putting down rasikas and using guilt and social shaming is not a sustainable way to address this issue.

BTW, is the exodus during thani still a big problem? I did not see it in big numbers in the few concerts I attended both in Chennai and elsewhere.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 27 Nov 2011, 22:44

"but putting down rasikas and using guilt and social shaming is not a sustainable way to address this issue" well said vasanthakokilam.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 19 Feb 2012, 04:28

The only sustainable way to minimize the exodus during thanis is to have more thanis in a concert. Also give an intermission.

In other words, more opportunities for people to walk out. I'm sure it will then come down in a way that doesn't affect the performance.

Vijayakumar · Post by **Vijayakumar** » 19 Feb 2012, 12:17

My view is that we cant force people to enjoy what is presented.
However the following the actions can enhance the presence of crowd, i feel
1. Let there be 2/3 short thanis than a one single elaborate one
2. let the thani occur depending on the mood of the concert and the singer than the usual, predictable single long one for the main song. The rasikas should not know when the thani will be taken and how long will it lost. Keep them guessing.

duff777 · Post by **duff777** » 23 Feb 2012, 02:44

Some of us non-Indians were initially attracted to Carnatic music because of tani avartanam performances showed in video sites. Searching for percussive world music, we found this sublime and noble rhythmic art.

mahesu · Post by **mahesu** » 23 Feb 2012, 13:00

I like Vijayakumar's idea.
The Tani should not be decided by main artist, time limit to be fixed based on the total duration of the concert, and it is upto the percussion artist to decide where he wants to play the tani and number of tanis (should be more than 1).
Now that few main artists are looking at changing the whole concert pattern, the above also could be added to that?

Vijayakumar · Post by **Vijayakumar** » 09 Mar 2012, 10:43

Recently there was an interview with mrid vidwan J Vaidyanathan in podhigai TV. He mentioned that one way to prevent attrition during Thani is to close the doors! He said this seriously! some thoughts in this forum also had this idea.
This is ridiculous. Can we force someone to stay when they are not interested? whats the point in forcing someone to listen?. some people dont like carnatic music at all and can we push them into a concert room and make them listen? some people like carnatic music but dont like some portions of it. As performers we dont have rights to decide what rasikas want but deliver what you know best..thats all.
Either we ignore those who are not interested and keep playing for the interested ones (even though less in number) or we dont play the thani at all. whats the big deal? dont things evolve over a period of time?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Mar 2012, 13:06

The entire flow of the concert is in the main artist's mind. It is not possible that any other person on stage should suddenly decide that now is the time for them to take their ten minutes.

I'm all for "democratisation" and lessening the perceived-importance gap between the "main" artist and the "accompanists," and I hope that, one day, they may be generally acknowledged to be one team, but an orchestra has one conductor, and so does the carnatic stage: the choice, timing and presentation of the material will always be the job, the responsibility, of the main artist.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 09 Mar 2012, 13:11

dont things evolve over a period of time?

Wonder if starting a concert with a Tani is the best way forward . Anyway.. People are trooping in , during this period and so no one needs to feel insulted . With that monkey of the back , all parties can remain satisfied and one major problem solved with ease

Vijayakumar · Post by **Vijayakumar** » 10 Mar 2012, 10:32

good one Varsha...i liked it!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Mar 2012, 12:20

Maybe people will just wait outside!

mahesu · Post by **mahesu** » 12 Mar 2012, 17:13

It is not appropriate to bring in ideas based of Western music into carnatic music concerts. The former are mostly rehearsed ones and the latter are done on stage, extempore. So the concept of conductor does not apply here. The beautiful understanding on the stage of the main artist and accompanists is to be experienced than told. This is to be extended, be it the alapanai of violin artist or thani of percussion artists. Let us not forget that the violin artist gets to play a thani after each raga alapanai of main artist. It is not wrong for the percussion artist(s) to perform more than 1 thani. However it should be always an extension of the song that just concluded and not the well rehearsed thani starting from tha dhin dhin na. This way it is more enjoyable and if it is within less duration and crisp, there would be more takers to it than in the present format where it has become more or less expected and hence boring.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Mar 2012, 18:17

the concept of conductor does not apply here

It does loosely in the sense that one person is in charge, which is how I meant it.

Yes, there is a beautiful understanding, and when that team work really works, the best concert is elevated to an extraordinary concert, but the "main" artist is still very much in charge. The violinist, for instance, does not get to play unless the main artist wants them too, and some artists are very mean with the time they give their violinist.

Actually, I think the conductor analogy is more than just a loose one.

A conductor of a western orchestra stands in front of a large group (dozens to hundreds) of highly polished, practised and professional musicians. It gives the impression that they could not perform in unison without him, but this is not true. They can all keep time (without any thigh slapping) and would not have got anywhere near the job if they couldn't; they can all remember and/or read music, and they can all play it with understanding and feeling. The conductor does not walk in and "put talam" for them: he works with them in rehearsal to produce his understanding and interpretation of the music. Time keeping is part of the job, but incidental: in the absence of a conductor, the orchestra will take their tempo from the first violin.

So, the Western conductor sets the feeling of the piece and the tempo. So does the main artist on the carnatic stage, although only the better performers always follow strictly in terms of feeling. It's true to say that, unlike Western classical, this is done without any rehearsal, and yes, that is one of the amazing factors of carnatic music, but the main artist is in a similar position to the conductor of an orchestra, the leader of a band, or the main performer in a jazz group.

Bringing the focus back to the thread topic, once the mridangist begins the thani, the main artist probably has less control, until its end, than [s]he has of the rest of the concert. The mridangist, and his colleagues, are going to play whatever they are going to play. It may happen that a vocalist may give cues to a violinist during their returns: I don't think it happens with the percussion, even when the vocalist is also a mridangist. Time allotment is probably as far as the control goes, and that has probably been established before the start.

Despite the overall control, that the violinist has many thanis in the concert is certainly (and literally?) true. Very good point. Personally, I would not like to see this happen with mridangam. I am not even keen on thiermanums that extend beyond the end of a song, which are a kind of mini thani. They might be appropriate occasionally, but if I hear more than one or two in a concert, I start to find them intrusive.