5th kaalam

[sung]

When I look at the sheet music for some movie songs, I find 32nd notes being used often.

I think that if one sings s r g m p d n S S n d p m g r s in the 5th kaalam, then each note is a 32nd note. Am I right? To make sure from the experts on the forum, I assume that 1st kaalam is a half note per beat; 2nd kaalam is two quarter notes per beat; 3rd kaalam is four eighth notes per beat; and 4th kaalam is eight sixteenth notes per beat. If that is right, then 5th kaalam must be sixteen thirty-second notes per beat.

If so, I am wondering whether musicians actually practice 5th kaalam also. (I know that one practices 4th kaalam.) Thanks in advance.

[Nick H]

Try L. Subramaniam. I think he is capable of leaving five in the distance. I'm sure he is not the only one.

With due respect to the dexterity involved, and I admit that I can find it breathtaking, I have to say that it is mostly of an exercise in maths and virtuosity rather than an expression of music.

So far as practice is concerned, let the musicians speak --- but I'd guess that this would be just one among many ways in which they might push themselves .

I find 32nd notes being used often

Check out Western music notation: not sure, but I think it has 64ths and 128ths covered, and I guess that, theoretically, there is no limit, either in Indian or Western music.

[mohan]

The various kAlams are all relative to each other. So if you start 1st kAlam very very slowly then 5th kalam won't be too hard!

[srikant1987]

So if you start 1st kAlam very very slowly then 5th kalam won't be too hard!

But the 1st kaalam will be.

[Nick H]

Exactly ... and very, very slow is much harder to maintain accuracy in --- so there challenges there too

[sung]

The various kAlams are all relative to each other. So if you start 1st kAlam very very slowly then 5th kalam won't be too hard!

I know what you are saying. I also realize that I need to elaborate on my previous post, because my question happens to be concerned with the typical duration we follow for 2nd kAlam and 3rd kAlam when we start learning carnatic music, as I explain below.

I recently bought a sheet music for "pudu veLLai mazhai" (actually for "ye haseen wadiyan") written in western notation. It said "4/4". That is, there are 4 quarter notes in a measure. Using the symbol for quarter note, it also said "a quarter note = 120". I am assuming this means that there are 120 quarter note beats in 1 min. If so, then it should take 0.5 sec for one quarter note. This is the typical duration for one note in 2nd kAlam. That is, when we sing s r g m p d n S S n d p m g r s in 2nd kAlam, the duration of each note is 0.5 sec or 0.48 sec or something in that vicinity (each note in this kAlam is a quarter note as per western notation). Keeping this tempo constant, my question in my earlier post was whether musicians practice the 5th kAlam, which to me sounds very fast (and indeed breathtaking, to quote Nick).

I will also elaborate on the context of this question.
If I represent 3rd kAlam (involving 8th notes) as
s r g m p d n S ...
4th kAlam (involving 16th notes) as
(s) (r) (g) (m) (p) (d) (n) (S) ...
and 5th kAlam (involving 32nd notes) as
((s)) ((r)) ((g)) ((m)) ...
then, the representation for, for example, the 2nd two lines in "pudu veLLai mazhai" is as follows (the hyphen separates the syllables):
s - r - r (,) - (p) , ((,)) - ((m)) (,) - (p) - d - (d) , ((,)) - ((p)) (,) - (m) ((,)) - (g) ((,)) - (m) g (p) - (m) - m r
in gu sol lA da i Dam kU Da ku Lir gin Ra du
ma nam sU DA na i Dam tE Di a lai gin Ra du.

Now, for example, the 4th syllable lA in the 1st line above, and similarly DA in the 2nd line above, involve a 16th, an 8th and a 32nd note [namely (p) , ((,))]. So, I am wondering whether musicians practice the 5th kAlam and know exactly how long totally to stretch that p swaram.

Hopefully I have not made it too complex in the above description. If it is not clear enough anywhere, please let me know. I will try to clarify. I do like to know the answer from the experts on this forum.

[anandasangeetham]

just a very novice question..is it necessary to be double the previous speed for determing the kalam? once my violin teacher (i learnt this for one year and stopped ..sheer lazyness on my part)....said that nowadays many people perform in multiple speeds but not exactly thedouble of the previous speed...like 1 2 4 8 16 but in simple progression like 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ...in this way even if one person performs at the eighth speed it is only the third speed inthe geometric progression.....there is one commercial recording of L Subramanian where he plays the nattakurinji varnam in multiple speeds (if i remember correct 16) and if this is calculated in swara terms then the 16th speed will be 32644 swaras (max if the first kalamis 1 swara per beat) and it could be down to 2048 swaras if the first kalam start with 8 beats for each swara...mindboggling and humanly impossible to do either vocal or instrumental.....

and it is also interesting to note that he accompanied sri MDR...what a combination the fastest with the slowest.....anyone has any such recording?

[Nick H]

To be 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc ... yes, it must be doubled each time.

Often, in pallavi singing, the palavi will be sung in 1st, 2nd, tisra, 3rd, and possibly etc. This is combining nadai into the picture.

With 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc, one's main challenge is pure speed: unless the piece is very rhythmically challenging, the actually doubling is far easier than changing nadai, which requires not only true grasp of laya, but that laya has a true grasp of the performer!

[vasanthakokilam]

sung: I understand your question. Since it is directed at those who actually practice multiple speeds, I will let such people answer it.

In the mean time, here is a recording I made on the iPad that is a representation of speeds up to 1/32 note. The base tempo is around 53 quarter notes a minute, much less than your sheet music tempo. The 1/32 note speed is quite fast. The next speed will make it sound almost continuous with very short breaks. L. Subramaniyan easily does it, but I am not sure if many vocalists would want to go there.

http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/chathu ... eeds-gathi

>but that laya has a true grasp of the performer!

true. listen to this trisram in three speeds ( on the iPad again ). The third section is a slow trisram where the three trisram sub-beats span two main beats and it has such a strong tendency to drag one to the trisra split rather than to the beat boundary.

http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/trisra ... athi-nadai

[sung]

here is a recording I made on the iPad that is a representation of speeds up to 1/32 note. The base tempo is around 53 quarter notes a second, much less than your sheet music tempo. The 1/32 note speed is quite fast.

It is nice. It gave me the idea to record it in the tempo I am talking about (namely 120 quarter notes per minute). Here it is: http://soundcloud.com/sung-3/s-r-g-m-in-5-kalams. The first 2 Avartans of Adi tALam are in the 1st kAlam. The 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Avartans are in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th kAlams. The 5th kAlam can be noticed to be almost continuous. (Vasanthakokilam, I think you meant 53 quarter notes a minute, right?)

L. Subramaniyan easily does it, but I am not sure if many vocalists would want to go there.

I am waiting to hear the verdict from the practicing musicians. In the meantime, let me change my question slightly. Assuming musicians actually don't practice the 5th kAlam, how are they able to know correctly how long to stretch a given note whose duration corresponds to the total (1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32), as I indicated for the syllable lA (or DA) in my previous post?

[vasanthakokilam]

Yes, I meant 53 quarter notes per minute. I fixed my post above now. Your recording is nice and illustrates the 5 speeds.

For your other question, that again has to wait for someone who does that kind of thing in practice. Your question is really about how one extends the duration to such level of accuracy at such intervals. I just do not know what kind of practice gets one to that level.

In western music notation, the concepts like the 1/8 + 1/16 is the dotted note.

1) 1/4 dotted : http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/one-fo ... athi-nadai
Each split is 1/4 + 1/8 = 3/8. Two splits take 3 beats to complete.

2) 1/8 dotted: http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/one-ei ... athi-nadai
Each split is 1/8 + 1/16 = 3/16 Four splits take 3 beats to complete.

3) 1/16 dotted: http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/one-si ... tted-gathi
Each split is 1/16 + 1/32 = 3/32 Eight splits take 3 beats to complete.

4) 1/32 dotted: http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/one-th ... tted-gathi
Each split is 1/32 + 1/64 = 3/64 Sixteen splits take 3 beats to complete.