An article on aesthetics by fellow forumite Uday Shankar appeared in the Hindu.
Here is a link to the article: http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article2718145.ece
Article by Uday Shankar
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Nick H
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
Part Two appears today.
As I'm just going out, I don't have time to seek out the link right now
As I'm just going out, I don't have time to seek out the link right now
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Always_Evolving
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cmlover
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
Uday at his best!
Cogent discussion... very relevant...
and my comments (in case you missed it)
Aesthetics is a subjective term relating to Arts (in this case CM) as against the strict canons of rules adhered to in Science. You are attempting to marry the two effectively since CM has both the dimensions of being an Art as well as a Science. As a Sound Engineer it is appropriate that you have evaluated the two important scientific dimensions Viz., Volume and Pitch in the context of CM. Let us admit that there are no written rules regarding these elements in CM and they are left as 'Listener's Choice'. The measuring instrument is of course the weakest, the Human Ear which is highly subjective. The common dictum 'One man's food is another's poison' is very true here. Popularity is dependent on violating both these dimensions as is evident from the immense success of Maestros like (late) Santhanam or KJY or even Kunnakkudi. IMHO there should be minimal strait-jackets for CM for its progress and survival.
Cogent discussion... very relevant...
and my comments (in case you missed it)
Aesthetics is a subjective term relating to Arts (in this case CM) as against the strict canons of rules adhered to in Science. You are attempting to marry the two effectively since CM has both the dimensions of being an Art as well as a Science. As a Sound Engineer it is appropriate that you have evaluated the two important scientific dimensions Viz., Volume and Pitch in the context of CM. Let us admit that there are no written rules regarding these elements in CM and they are left as 'Listener's Choice'. The measuring instrument is of course the weakest, the Human Ear which is highly subjective. The common dictum 'One man's food is another's poison' is very true here. Popularity is dependent on violating both these dimensions as is evident from the immense success of Maestros like (late) Santhanam or KJY or even Kunnakkudi. IMHO there should be minimal strait-jackets for CM for its progress and survival.
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uday_shankar
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
cmlji,
I must quickly clarify that I'm not a "Sound Engineer", hopefully at least a "sound" one
.
Nothing needs to be "measured" and no doubt tastes differ. I was just questioning the chaotic mess that's audio in chennai venues. It's not part of any overall agenda. I don't have any objection to loudness per se, as long as that's a deliberate choice.
For example, I should presume that there must have been a difference between hearing MS at the famous UN performance and at, say, Mylapore Fine Arts Club. While the former must have been tasteful and aesthetically sensitive amplification the latter must have shattered the eardrums of the listener. So what changed ? The two ensembles were identical. It was the same VVS, TMK and THV as accompanists.
There is no "strait jacket" but a call to more thoughtful amplification and more sensitivity to the aesthetics of presentation surely cannot hurt ?! Why bother to comb ones hair or shave ?
I must quickly clarify that I'm not a "Sound Engineer", hopefully at least a "sound" one
.Nothing needs to be "measured" and no doubt tastes differ. I was just questioning the chaotic mess that's audio in chennai venues. It's not part of any overall agenda. I don't have any objection to loudness per se, as long as that's a deliberate choice.
For example, I should presume that there must have been a difference between hearing MS at the famous UN performance and at, say, Mylapore Fine Arts Club. While the former must have been tasteful and aesthetically sensitive amplification the latter must have shattered the eardrums of the listener. So what changed ? The two ensembles were identical. It was the same VVS, TMK and THV as accompanists.
There is no "strait jacket" but a call to more thoughtful amplification and more sensitivity to the aesthetics of presentation surely cannot hurt ?! Why bother to comb ones hair or shave ?
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cmlover
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
Valid points. But we Indians are generally loud (loud-mouthed too 
It is part of our culture which is resented by the westerners. Just like our eating with our hands - slurping too!
Once a westerner remarked that one misses the real taste of our south indian dishes unless one eats with his hands.
Nothing to do with 'aesthetics'. We pray loud too unlike the other religions who invoke their God silently!
My point is it is our CULTURE. By the by I have lived through those 'mikeless' days when our veterans used to literally shriek to reach the audience.
You are indeed a "sound" engineer - I have no doubts
It is part of our culture which is resented by the westerners. Just like our eating with our hands - slurping too!
Once a westerner remarked that one misses the real taste of our south indian dishes unless one eats with his hands.
Nothing to do with 'aesthetics'. We pray loud too unlike the other religions who invoke their God silently!
My point is it is our CULTURE. By the by I have lived through those 'mikeless' days when our veterans used to literally shriek to reach the audience.
You are indeed a "sound" engineer - I have no doubts
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Nick H
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
Could it be that your contention amounts to !We are like this only?
First point: as a medical man, you must be aware that loud sound is damaging to the ears.
Second point: there is no more excuse for bad sound presentation and bad acoustics than there is for bad driving. It is just b a d !
This is one of those strange situations in which people sit meekly and accept whatever is doled out to them. I suggest that the majority do not actually want these volume levels --- but nobody complains. The question is why the paying customers (quite often, in the season, literally paying) do not say anything at all?
A few of the elder rasikas are very deaf, but I do not think they would want to inflict such volumes on the many that are not. I have ceased clamouring for unamplified concerts, as my own hearing is now not good enough for them.
Smt Vedavalli's concert at the music academy was wonderful, because it felt like listening to people singing and playing. This is not what what we usually experience: we usually listen to speakers and amplifiers, with only the visual clues permitting our brains to associate the sound with the artists. The Music Academy has, no doubt, some expensive expensive equipment --- but, whatever the budget, the weakest link is always the sabha organisers and mixer operators.
First point: as a medical man, you must be aware that loud sound is damaging to the ears.
Second point: there is no more excuse for bad sound presentation and bad acoustics than there is for bad driving. It is just b a d !
This is one of those strange situations in which people sit meekly and accept whatever is doled out to them. I suggest that the majority do not actually want these volume levels --- but nobody complains. The question is why the paying customers (quite often, in the season, literally paying) do not say anything at all?
A few of the elder rasikas are very deaf, but I do not think they would want to inflict such volumes on the many that are not. I have ceased clamouring for unamplified concerts, as my own hearing is now not good enough for them.
Smt Vedavalli's concert at the music academy was wonderful, because it felt like listening to people singing and playing. This is not what what we usually experience: we usually listen to speakers and amplifiers, with only the visual clues permitting our brains to associate the sound with the artists. The Music Academy has, no doubt, some expensive expensive equipment --- but, whatever the budget, the weakest link is always the sabha organisers and mixer operators.
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cmlover
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
Nick
There is no excuse for bad acoustics.
But I guess uday's point is the way the artistes sing (behave in SI vs abroad)!
They intrinsiaclly tend to be louder at home..
Volume by itself is also part of 'aesthetics'. Do we exclude the Rock concerts in those discussions?
My point is the difference in CULTURE.
Indian views on 'aesthetics' are quite different from those in the West.
Take for example our sculptures which deviate from the Grecian standards but are appreciated by us.
Beauty/Music is in the eye/ear of the beholder/listener!
There is no excuse for bad acoustics.
But I guess uday's point is the way the artistes sing (behave in SI vs abroad)!
They intrinsiaclly tend to be louder at home..
Volume by itself is also part of 'aesthetics'. Do we exclude the Rock concerts in those discussions?
My point is the difference in CULTURE.
Indian views on 'aesthetics' are quite different from those in the West.
Take for example our sculptures which deviate from the Grecian standards but are appreciated by us.
Beauty/Music is in the eye/ear of the beholder/listener!
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Nick H
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
The hardware is not different by culture, only the users.
We can certainly include rock concerts in the discussion, and find exactly the same bad and good. I have been to rock concerts, even solo performances of guy+guitar+amplifier+speakers which were unspeakably horrible, and probably each one contributed a little to the current state of my ears. I have also been to concerts with crowds of over 10,000 where the sound quality was superb, and the volumes reasonable (far exceeded by the audience, when they chose to join in)
This is not a cultural problem, nor is it a matter of taste --- and surely, someone living so close to USA should not be asserting that India has any kind of monopoly on LOUD!
We can certainly include rock concerts in the discussion, and find exactly the same bad and good. I have been to rock concerts, even solo performances of guy+guitar+amplifier+speakers which were unspeakably horrible, and probably each one contributed a little to the current state of my ears. I have also been to concerts with crowds of over 10,000 where the sound quality was superb, and the volumes reasonable (far exceeded by the audience, when they chose to join in)
This is not a cultural problem, nor is it a matter of taste --- and surely, someone living so close to USA should not be asserting that India has any kind of monopoly on LOUD!
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cmlover
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
I strongly protest the insinuation that the loudness has increased several decibels in US with the increasing influx of Indian Immigrants
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vainika
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
Lovely, Uday! And so true.The aesthetically pleasing aura created by a sonorous and meticulously tuned tambura has a way of gently embracing a singer's shruti lapses and folding it into the overall sound.
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cmlover
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
I wonder what Uday means by this.The aesthetically pleasing aura created by a sonorous and meticulously tuned tambura
Certainly not the electronic ones!
Even here is it not true that what we audience hear through the 'inefficient/cheap' amplifier system is very different from what the artiste himself hears?
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uday_shankar
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
There are two distinct issues - one pertains to electronics and the other to art. When speaking of tambura, I am speaking of art. When a singer sings through a cheap, loud and distorted amplifier, there is still some of the aesthetics of the art as well as bhava left in it, right ? Similarly, when there's an audible tambura, it aids the aesthetics of the art, regardless of the quality of the audio. Makes sense ?cmlover wrote:Even here is it not true that what we audience hear through the 'inefficient/cheap' amplifier system is very different from what the artiste himself hears?
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cmlover
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
OK! One question
If the (high-end electronic) thambura delivers the right frequencies then why do most artistes keep twiddling knobs during performance. The shruti should be the same through out the whole concert. right? Are they trying to coax the electronic shruti to hug theirs to cover-up their shruti lapses?
If the (high-end electronic) thambura delivers the right frequencies then why do most artistes keep twiddling knobs during performance. The shruti should be the same through out the whole concert. right? Are they trying to coax the electronic shruti to hug theirs to cover-up their shruti lapses?
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uday_shankar
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
Twiddling of knobs is probably only to adjust the volume.
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Nick H
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
Some of us just can't resist twiddling knobs!
I admit that includes me, but when artists can't stop fiddling with shruti box, mic, any other gadget on stage --- it is annoying.
I admit that includes me, but when artists can't stop fiddling with shruti box, mic, any other gadget on stage --- it is annoying.
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cmlover
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
I wish there were knobs on the accompanists too for the artiste to adjust
aDakki vaasi Daa!
(famous SSI quote!)
aDakki vaasi Daa!
(famous SSI quote!)
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Nick H
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
|( ] ] ] :$ :$ 
That would get them arrested
] ] :$ :$ That would get them arrested
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varsha
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
Kalakshetra , yesterday evening , was witness to another facet of aesthetics .
Neatly dressed volunteers , Gifting of plates with fruits for the artists , Aroma of Agarbattis , the typical North Indian audience clapping at all the wrong places and dressed to kill , if not maim ....and may other things that were copy-book , coffee-table-book stuff.
Problems arose when the singer noticed that the two tanpuras brought in by the organisers were dissimilar . The one near the pakhawaj player was disconcerting and he kept pointing it out . The singer tried to manfully pull it through , but at one point he apologised - One of the Tanpuras is a female Tanpura and so I am having problems . But will try my best .
After the concert I was standing near the Director when the owner of the Tanpuras - obviously it looked a job outsourced - came with his two boys . All the three of them were short - atleast shorter than the Director .
She starts complaining - Why did you do like this ? You folks got me one male and one female tanpura . How embarassing ?
The two kids who were at the site diring the concert now stare at the tanpuras in their hand . All nealy strapped in a cloth case and zipped too - They were trying to figure which was male and which was not .
And you were not there when it was so embarassing .
The Supervisor looks at his two boys , then the tanpuras - and asks - How am I to know which is which Mam ?
Why - it is simple . The taller one is the male and the shorter one is the female one . All the three blokes look at each other - they are all shorter than the Director by atleast two inches and get more confused .
Any other way of making out which is which .
Leela Samson has some idea of the situation now .
Ok We will mark them as 1-2-3-4 from now on .
Make sure you always get 1-2 or 3-4 . OK.
I wondered if kalakshetra has ISO certification and some procedures will stand modified .
As I come out , a Kid I know hails me . Hi ! Are you coming to academy tomorrow morning ?.
I ask him who is singing .
RK Srikantan .
Now this kid is a tabla player and so I ask - will he sing Hindusthani ?
No . Carnatic . I am told he is the current rage of Chennai . Missed him last year . Dont want to miss it for anything .
That concert must be on , now .
Feel very happy for RKS . Nednuri , Parasala . Feel sad for Balchander , Kalyanraman , Voleti and hmmm so many others .
Neatly dressed volunteers , Gifting of plates with fruits for the artists , Aroma of Agarbattis , the typical North Indian audience clapping at all the wrong places and dressed to kill , if not maim ....and may other things that were copy-book , coffee-table-book stuff.
Problems arose when the singer noticed that the two tanpuras brought in by the organisers were dissimilar . The one near the pakhawaj player was disconcerting and he kept pointing it out . The singer tried to manfully pull it through , but at one point he apologised - One of the Tanpuras is a female Tanpura and so I am having problems . But will try my best .
After the concert I was standing near the Director when the owner of the Tanpuras - obviously it looked a job outsourced - came with his two boys . All the three of them were short - atleast shorter than the Director .
She starts complaining - Why did you do like this ? You folks got me one male and one female tanpura . How embarassing ?
The two kids who were at the site diring the concert now stare at the tanpuras in their hand . All nealy strapped in a cloth case and zipped too - They were trying to figure which was male and which was not .
And you were not there when it was so embarassing .
The Supervisor looks at his two boys , then the tanpuras - and asks - How am I to know which is which Mam ?
Why - it is simple . The taller one is the male and the shorter one is the female one . All the three blokes look at each other - they are all shorter than the Director by atleast two inches and get more confused .
Any other way of making out which is which .
Leela Samson has some idea of the situation now .
Ok We will mark them as 1-2-3-4 from now on .
Make sure you always get 1-2 or 3-4 . OK.
I wondered if kalakshetra has ISO certification and some procedures will stand modified .
As I come out , a Kid I know hails me . Hi ! Are you coming to academy tomorrow morning ?.
I ask him who is singing .
RK Srikantan .
Now this kid is a tabla player and so I ask - will he sing Hindusthani ?
No . Carnatic . I am told he is the current rage of Chennai . Missed him last year . Dont want to miss it for anything .
That concert must be on , now .
Feel very happy for RKS . Nednuri , Parasala . Feel sad for Balchander , Kalyanraman , Voleti and hmmm so many others .
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varsha
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Re: Article by Uday Shankar
And those of you who have been waiting for long for a sensational singer at his peak , please dont miss Uday bhawalkar at Acadamy - Must be on New years eve . Great to watch someone singing for himself and at his hypnotic best . His enunciation of just one word Ganga in a compostion for Malkauns , evoked the silent sounds near the birth of a river , the roar of the cascades , the tranquility while flowing through vast expanses in the plains , the union with the seas and wafting , right up into clouds into Lord Siva's Hairdo . Not since Jasraj , three decades ago at the same venue , did I experience such goosebumps.