Sashikiran/Ganesh - Lec Dem on Carnatic and Math

[fuddyduddy]

Well, If you always wondered how Carnatic musicians excel in Math, try downloading the Lec Dem I attached below.. I attended this lec dem one early morning at Naradha Gana sabha, a few weeks back, and surprised that it was an almost full hall waiting to attend the Lec Dem, led by Shri Sashikiran on the topic : "Carnatic Music and Math". With his permission I decided to upload it since I found it absolutely useful, especially the second half. The first half started off with an introduction to what was in store for the second half... They also have given some sample pallavis and examples of how any musician can on the spot go with any complicated thaalam..
Sashikiran seemed like he needed no preparation for this topic as I felt he could spontaneously go on about the 'Math in Music' for hours together.. And Ganesh was immediately able to sing the examples so the audience could understand better! I sure was in awe and wished I had attended more of these lec dems...

http://www.yousendit.com/download/T2dma ... 00&s=19102

(P.S - I dint know the best way to upload, the above link has an expiry of 1/14. Pl let me know if there are better ways to upload to this forum).

[vasanthakokilam]

You can put it in dropbox ( https://www.dropbox.com ) and it will be more permanent. Once you figure out dropbox ( not a big deal ), put it in the public folder and share the link here.

[mahavishnu]

thanks, fuddyduddy. Very interesting topic.
I just downloaded it. Looking forward to listening to it...

[VK RAMAN]

Thanks fuddyduddy

[rananthga]

very helpful - thanks for posting fuddyduddy.

[rananthga]

I just listened to this - very useful for all musicians (not just vocalists). They are full of ideas - so much tips on how to practice to get grip on thaalam.

One thing I particularly liked - creating a Korvai on the spot - ABABAB, A, 2A-B, A, 2A-B, A. This is quite useful to keep in mind. However I it doesnt work when 2A is less than B - you get a negative number. (e.g. 26, 27, 28, 49 etc.).

fuddyduddy - would it be possible to ask Shashi/Ganesh - if this "formula" is only applicable where 2A happens to be greater than B?

[shashikiran]

Dear Sir
That particular formula, credit should go to Mridangam Vidwan Mannargudi Easwaran, as it was he who told me about it in one of my tours with him to US. Yes you are right that it does not work for certain numbers like 26 etc. But for such small numbers one doesn't have to think of any formula, as we can create so many patterns directly. It works great for all 3 digit number and higher denominations and the best part is you can have the graha or eduppu at any given point in a talam and you can construct a korvai on the spot in seconds and also to enable your accompanists understand easily, you can start each of these patterns from the samam itself for a clue. There are many other formulas for even poruttham swaras for any eduppu etc. Similarly multi- various ways of doing multi -speeds or practising methods for nadai bedham or gati bedham ( both are different terms ) in a smooth transition. Even exercises for fractions only samples are given. Lots more can be done for each of these. Nadais can be more than 5 too as I briefly mentioned if we have control in handling numbers like 11, 13, 17, etc. But usually we struggle for even 5 and 7.....9 is very tough. We need to think of everything keep 4 as the base point. First speed will always be 1/4, and you keep doubling. So the samams will fall for each of these speeds after that many counts with a given rhythmic cycle. Thus breaking these into simple sub-units or 5 if khandam or 7 if misram etc.....Guess I don't want to get more technical here...
Also my father and guru Chitravina Narasimhan has derived several formulas and created pallavis in many talas including simhanandana tala and will do all the rhythmic intricacies with absolute ease and with no compromise to aesthetics and has stressed on how a student should work on mastering the laya component . An exercise for students is also to try setting the same pallavi in different nadais in different talas.

[eesha]

You can put it in dropbox ( https://www.dropbox.com ) and it will be more permanent. Once you figure out dropbox ( not a big deal ), put it in the public folder and share the link here.

A permanent way to store for posterity is uploading it to sangeethapriya.org

[rananthga]

Got it - thanks for your detailed reply Sri: Shashikiran. Many thanks to Easwaran sir for this formula.

Hope to hear more lec dem's from you in the next December season.

[samskrtasangitam]

Hi fuddyduddy,

Can you please upload the lec dem again? It says the link has expired.

Thanks

[vasanthakokilam]

I put the copy I downloaded into my dropbox. It will be there until I need more space there: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6372521/KNS%20LecDem.m4a

fuddyduddy, consider putting it up at sangeethapriya as eesha suggests above.

[fuddyduddy]

thanks, all..
will use dropbox or sangeethapriya from next time!

[eesha]

It is now available in sangeethapriya, txs to veteran uploader TVG
http://www.sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLO ... athematics

[Nick H]

I listened to a little a couple of days back.

Just possibly I may not be the only one here, or passing by, to be interested in the fact that it is in English.

[VijayR]

Oh, this was one fascinating and technical lec-dem! I am so glad I made it to this one… 1 hour just flew by like that! Not sure how many people were present at the start of the lec-dem, but I turned around from my perch in the first row sometime in the middle of the lec-dem to find the NGS mini-hall almost full. Many thanks to Shashikiran and Ganesh (and also Suriya, their disciple who assisted them during this lec-dem).

fuddyduddy: thanks for recording this! By the way, I am the one who asks the question at the end about the significance and use of arithmetic progression and geometric progression while changing speeds. Don't know what you look like, else I would have said hello.

[vasanthakokilam]

>use of arithmetic progression and geometric progression while changing speeds

Ah.. I have not listened to the podcast yet. The above is one more incentive to listen to it. There are a few threads at this site that go deep into mathematical modeling of the laya we hear and more, including things like chaturasra trisram etc.. akellaji and sr_iyer are expert teachers at this and made some excellent posts that clarify the matters for those who like mathematical precision and formalism

Here are a few threads I found that provide some mathematical formalism

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... nadai.html

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 70#p184470

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 93#p136693