The Hindu's Chennai season coverage

[Nick H]

pick-nick-ing is fun too.

I speak as someone who often nickpicks, especially online!

[rshankar]

I speak as someone who often nickpicks, especially online!

You are truly pers'Nick'ety, huh?

[Vidyasankar]

I can well sympathize with c-t-m's irritation over the gratuitous h after k, in the spelling of Khamboji! I also see both my brothers-in-law and at least a couple of friends on this thread, so I wanted to contribute some Sanskrit-ic ruminations here.

ambhas = water, so amdbhodhi = ocean. If we derive the Raga name thus, it would have to be spelled kAmbhodhi (hrasva -i ending), with an h after b and another h after d. Also note, Hindustani music has two Ragas, Kamod and Tilak Kamod, where the b/bh sound has been completely dropped, but the ending sound is just the soft d. I've never heard it pronounced as Kamoj. Of these two Ragas, Tilak Kamod has a little bit of family resemblance to Carnatic Kambhodhi.

Neither kAmbhodi nor kAmbhoji can be derived directly in a similar way. But a-kAra ending words like ambhoda = water-giver = cloud and ambhoja = water-born, e.g. lotus, can be derived. All the Muttuswami Dikshitar Kritis referenced in this thread use ambhoja prefixed with -ka- in the sUcita rAgamudrA. The feminine forms of these words would typically end in long vowel -A, and rarely long vowel -I. Thus ambhodA and ambhojA are easily possible, but ambhojI would be an optional and rarely used construction.

As early as the Mahabharata, we see references to a region/clan called kAmboja, and someone/thing belonging to that region/clan could well be called kAmboji (same derivation as in dasharatha -> dAsharathi (hrasva i-kAra) = rAma and his brothers). As Vidya mentioned, it is much more likely that these literary references are to places/people northwest of cultural India, rather than modern Cambodia/Kampuchea.

On a general note, the usage of ch and j/jh instead of th and d/dh is well known in speech, e.g. the usual Telugu pronunciation of Tyagaraja as Chyagaraja which sounds wrong to non-Telugu ears, although Telugu speakers will insist they are right. Like the v/b pair, these sounds are interchangeable when they travel from one region to another, from one linguistic group to another. Often, there is also a marked tendency in speech to slur over or completely drop the second member of a conjunct sound pair.

A famous example can be cited here. The sound "dhya" in Sanskrit dhyAna, when spoken in a Prakrit way, becomes jhya, then drops the y part in the sound and becomes jhAna. This then went on to become Chan in China, Thien in Vietnam (thus moving closer to the Sanskrit sound), Seon in Korea and Zen in Japan. When the historical trajectory of a word is well established as in this case, it is easy to assign etymological priority. But in the history of our Raga names as known today, there is much that is unknown, so we need not be too Sanskritic in the etymologies of these names.

So long as we are bothering about where to put the h, kAmbhodhi (with short vowel ending), kAmbhojI (with long vowel ending) and kAmboji (with soft b and short vowel ending) would all be okay. If one were to justify an alternative derivation from Tamil, there should be no h anywhere in the name, although nowadays it is the Tamilians who are the worst offenders in liberally sprinking h's everywhere when they write in the Roman script.

[uday_shankar]

Often, there is also a marked tendency in speech to slur over or completely drop the second member of a conjunct sound pair.

Hi Vidyasankar, a rare scholarly presence here! Closer to home, we have the Bengalis doing this as a rule. Thus da-kshi-ne-shvar becomes do-khi-ne-shor and sAtvik become shotik and so on...Also, is it possible that the same tendency led the word kAmbodha to morph to kAmod, adding the standard Hindi habit of dropping the short 'a' at the end. There is still the "dh" vs "d" issue at the end of course.

[vidya]

ambhas = water, so ambhodhi = ocean. If we derive the Raga name thus, it would have to be spelled kAmbhodhi (hrasva -i ending), with an h after b and another h after d. Neither kAmbhodi nor kAmbhoji can be derived directly in a similar way. So long as we are bothering about where to put the h, kAmbhodhi (with short vowel ending), kAmbhojI (with long vowel ending) and kAmboji (with soft b and short vowel ending) would all be okay.

Vidyasankar,


This is how it is spelt in the third chapter of Ragavibodha in not one but in three different editions. The commentary 'viveka' too has the same spelling, so we can be somewhat assured that this is not a scribal error. (On a related note ragavibodha was spelt as Ragavibhoda in the very same Hindu not once but twice in the recent past!). Based on this even if we assume the word tb be ambu and not ambhas (similar to how ambuja vs ambhoja are derived) we don't end up with the above result but a long vowel. This is one of the reasons I felt that the kAmbhodhi derivation was a postfacto in the first place.

[arasi]

ini kAmbOdi (???!!!) kETkaiyil ellAm
kaTRaRindavar manam varuvar!

[rshankar]

adu kAmbhOdhiyA, kAmbojiyA, alladu kAmbhOjIyA enRu calm-Aga (to paraphrase Rajesh) naDakinradu...to be appreciated....
Thanks to Smts. Vidya Sankar, Vidya Jayaraman and Sri Ravi Kiran, and their ambhOdhi of knowledge...!

[uday_shankar]

Ravi,
Vidyasankar is a Shri, brother in law of Ravikiran and Shashikiran, but certainly another embodiment of boundless "vidya".

[arasi]

Ah, Kiranavali's husband!

[rshankar]

Ravi,
Vidyasankar is a Shri, brother in law of Ravikiran and Shashikiran, but certainly another embodiment of boundless "vidya".

Ah! My apologies....

[arunsri]

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article2777384.ece

Did not want to start a new thread

Just wanted to highlight somethings for sake of clarification from knowledgeable folks!

1. annapUrNE, shrI vishwanAtham are not on the deities at Kashi (Varanasi) - I forget the name of the sthala in TN, but this is the same place on which kAshi vishwEshwarO (kAmbhOji) is composed. Pls correct if wrong. The other two kritis - vishAlAkshi and Ehi annapUrnE have kAshi word in the sAhityam

2. shrI kAnchi nAyikE is definitely not a MD kriti - it is a kriti of annAswAmi sastry

3. rAmachandram bhAvayAmi on ayOdhyA - seems too generic... for that matter any kriti on rAma like 'sAketa nagara nAtha' of maisUr sadAshiva rAo can be attributed to Ayodhya

4. Is shrI vEnkaTagirIsham on tirupati?

[rajeshnat]

1. annapUrNE, shrI vishwanAtham are not on the deities at Kashi (Varanasi) - I forget the name of the sthala in TN, but this is the same place on which kAshi vishwEshwarO (kAmbhOji) is composed.

Kuzhikkarai is the village where Dikshitar composed annapUrNE.

[rshankar]

Right,the temple pond in kuzhikkarai is called gartA...

[keerthi]

Right,the temple pond in kuzhikkarai is called gartA...

Are you sure Ravi?

garta in sanskRt is cave, cavity or hole, rarely a canal. It appears that garta-tIra is the sanskRt equivalent of kuzhi-karai, rather than a reference to any temple pond/ puSkariNi.

arunsri,

srIvenkaTagirIsham can be triangulated to be a song composed at pulivalam [not far from tiruvArUr]for the following reason(s).

1. this kRti refers to 'kaluSApaha-gOkarNa-kSEtraM'

2. In the kApi song vEnkaTacalapatE, MD says 'gOkaRNa-kSEtramuna nelakoni' as well as 'mangaLam porundiya pulivalattil viLanguM'.. Thereby clinching the deal. the reference is to pulivalam, not tirupati.

Well, since most of the songs in the lec-demo refer to shrines in and around tiruvArUr, a minor change in the title should redeem it..!

[chitravina ravikiran]

Thanks, Vidya, Vidyasankar and others for taking this further. I quite agree that raga names do not have to do with regional origins or even obviously logical/technical reasons though it may have made sense to the person who named it then. I merely said that to dissuade people from making incorrect assumptions to justify any one spelling (having seen a few musicians attempting to do so).

It is clear that both the ji and di endings have been in vogue for a few centuries. It is interesting to also see that OVK has followed the Ragavibodha spelling in his one of his compositions while MD has suggestively employed the 'ja' ending.

[tyagarajadasa]

keerthi,

In my understand kuzhikkarai = gartatIra = banks of the pit (kuzhi=garta)

(the first line of the anupallavi is unnata gartatIra vihAriNi)

[keerthi]

gokul,

I would like to say I respectfully disagree, but I'm not sure if we're in disagreement.

We have both written that kuzhi-karai = garta-tIra, but whether it is called that, because it is a pit on the banks/ banks on the pit is a bit like the kambOdhi = kAmbu Udi/ kombu Udi argument, that is pertinent to this thread.

garta-tIra seems to be the sanskritised name of kuzhikkarai, as seen in the rAgamAlikA [He gives the postal address of vaidyalinga mudaliyar - srIpura-nirRti-bhAga-gArta-tIra..] and in the kAmbOdhi 'kAshI-vishvEsvara' [garta-tIra-vAsa-bhakta-vishvAsa].

Now what will unnata-garta-tIra mean, if we took a literal translation - the elevated pit on the banks - there is a dissonant dhwani in the contradiction of the elevated and the pit.

Just like it is problematic to derive an explanation for hAlAsya-ksEtra from the literal translation of hAla and Asya in sanskRt, while hAlAsya-ksEtra and hAlAsya-nAtha are now 'standardised' and 'legitimate' names for madurai and cokkanAtha; it may be problematic to interpret the place name, which is the equivalent of a proper noun in English.

[arunsri]

Thanks Rajesh - kuzhikkarai it is,

I brought up this topic, since this lecdem was reported in Hindu and there were so many mistakes (Factual) not typos.

So, is it not a good idea to study things properly and give a lecdem?? or properly report asking clarifications, if needed

These things are recorded for posterity, appears in print media etc. People who are not much exposed to CM and who come with the intention of gaining knowledge, will accept what has been said in letter and spirit. Annapurne will be remembered (since it is a very popular song) as a kriti composed on Annapoorneshwari of Kashi (Varanasi) and Sri Venkata Girisham (Suruti) on the Lord at Tirupati.

This is how wrongs get propagated and once a wrong is repeated several times in front of more and more people, it gets the colour or right! Artistes as well as reporters have a sacred responsibility of passing on correct information to audience.

[ravir]

srIvenkaTagirIsham can be triangulated to be a song composed at pulivalam [not far from tiruvArUr]for the following reason(s).

Keerthi,

My take on this would be this:

1. The opening of the Surati kriti indicates that MD invokes him as the Lord of Sri Venkata hill. This is akin to the varali kriti as well (' Seshachala nayakam' ). There is no hill in Pulivalam and the mUlavar is simply called Venkatachalapati or appan perumal in tamizh. Thus MD addresses him in the Karnataka Kapi kriti by name ( Venkatachalapate) at the outset of the kriti.

2. The Surati kriti also carries the reference to Alarmelumanga thAyar and MD says 'alarmelumanga sametham' akin to 'padmavathi ramanam' in the pUrnachandrika kriti 'Sanka chakra gadapanim'. There is no tAyar sannadhi at Pulivalam. Only the utsava mUrthI has sridevi & bhudevi on either sides of the Lord. and thus Diksitar simply addresses the lord as 'ramApatE' in the Karnataka Kapi composition.

So not withstanding the 'gokarna ksEtra' reference ( which seems to be a generic reference IMO ) common to the Surati & Karnataka Kapi kritis I am inclined to place the Surati kriti as having been sung on the Lord at Tirupati (along with the Purnachandrika and Varali compositions) on the available internal evidence.

Ravi

[keerthi]

Thanks for that interesting reply Ravi, it only makes me more garrulous. And forces me to use the reductionist methods our scientists so love to use. The larger point I wish to make is that we have no way of knowing for sure, and like archaeologists and historians, have to deal with a poverty of data, and can at best make educated surmises.

1. Opening line of surati song says lord of vEnkaTa hill, but opening line of kApi song doesn't? How come??

(srI-)vEnkaTa-giri-ishaM and vEnkata-acala-patE

There is a lexeme to lexeme match. The two words are perfect synonyms.

While the names 'malayappan' or 'vEnkatAcalapati' are generic names refering to the srInivAsa form of the deity, how confident can we be of the names' genericity in the times/mind of MD?

I think gOkarNa-kSEtra - a place name makes for stronger evidence than the deities' names which have more scope for genericity.

Except the name sEshacalanAyaka, there is no other reference to any kSEtra details in the varALi song. It may very well be a kSetra-less generic composition. Unless you make a strong claim that all of MD's compositions are composed on specific deities of specific kSEtra-s.

2. vEnkaTa-varada-ksEtram - I am disinclined to believe this is a tirupati kRti, merely because of lack of evidence. It could very well be a reference to the perumbakkam deity - http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/04/09/stor ... 750600.htm

It could be a generic kRti, what with the reference to virajA nadi and everything.

3. alamElumanga reference doesn't cut it.
I can show you a dozen shrines from >200 years ago that are dedicated to vEnkatEsa and the tAyAr is named padmAvati/ alamElumanga. Why, MD's own vasantabhairavi composition on prasannavEnkaTEswara refers to alamElumanga.

Incidentally tirumalai vEnkatEswara temple doesn't have a tAyAr sannidhi. Probably the only divyadEsham shrine to be so.

4. At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest, I want to suggest the possibility of rAmaswami dIkSitar not having gone to tirumalai . It could be at pulivalam that he prayed to vEnkataramaNa in the vEgavAhini song 'inkA dayarAkunnanu' to grant sight to the blind chinnaswAmi [kannulosagi mannana nannu brovaga..]. MD's vEnkatAcalapatE, which mercifully refers to pulivalam unambiguously, does the same [shIghramAy vandu andhunik(i)-abhISTa-dAnamosagina..]

[ravir]

Why, MD's own vasantabhairavi composition on prasannavEnkaTEswara refers to alamElumanga.

The reference in that composition is to the temple at Tanjore ('prasiddha tanja nagara stitham').

Incidentally tirumalai vEnkatEswara temple doesn't have a tAyAr sannidhi. Probably the only divyadEsham shrine to be so.

Atleast in Tirupati, there is a nearby separate temple for alarmelumanga/padmavathi, warranting that reference in the Surati & Purnacandrika kriti. There is none at Pulivalam & hence my point.

2. vEnkaTa-varada-ksEtram - I am disinclined to believe this is a tirupati kRti, merely because of lack of evidence. It could very well be a reference to the perumbakkam deity - http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/04/09/stor ... 750600.htm

It could be a generic kRti, what with the reference to virajA nadi and everything.

3. alamElumanga reference doesn't cut it.
I can show you a dozen shrines from >200 years ago that are dedicated to vEnkatEsa and the tAyAr is named padmAvati/ alamElumanga.

Based on the most possible of the possibilities it ought to be considered as a Tirupati ksetra kriti. I conclude .

Ravi

[Vidyasankar]

Vidyasankar,


This is how it is spelt in the third chapter of Ragavibodha in not one but in three different editions. The commentary 'viveka' too has the same spelling, so we can be somewhat assured that this is not a scribal error. (On a related note ragavibodha was spelt as Ragavibhoda in the very same Hindu not once but twice in the recent past!). Based on this even if we assume the word tb be ambu and not ambhas (similar to how ambuja vs ambhoja are derived) we don't end up with the above result but a long vowel. This is one of the reasons I felt that the kAmbhodhi derivation was a postfacto in the first place.

Yes, that seems most likely. I don't think we can find valid etymologies beyond a point. I was looking at the Sanskrit dictionaries recently, searching for other possibilities for kAmbodI, and saw kambala/kambali for wool and woollen blanket, attested from extremely early sources. The word is Sanskrit as is, but no further derivation from more basic verbal roots or nouns can be really found for it. Perhaps our kAmbodI, kAmbojI is one such!

I am not surprised about "Ragavibhoda" Brahminical Tamil culture is on a spree of over mahA-prANa-izing at the most inappropriate places both in speech and in writing. If I had a nickel for every time some Tamil mama recites "ghaNAnAm tvA", I'd be rich by now.

Uday, thanks for the intro to others here. I am, by personal choice, a rare presence on Rasikas, for various reasons I enjoyed reading your articles online in The Hindu.

Vidyasankar

[HeyNarayana]

Great comments from everybody. Has anybody written to the editors? I have sent email to Hindu Editors and do not expect a response however if they hear from more people, at least once voice will be heard and will be forced to bring change.

[critiquing-the-media]

Great comments from everybody. Has anybody written to the editors? I have sent email to Hindu Editors and do not expect a response however if they hear from more people, at least once voice will be heard and will be forced to bring change.

Ha, good luck with that! Perhaps if someone takes out a front page ad like Mr. Vasanthkumar, The Hindu will gladly publish it. http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012 ... ad-policy/ The paper's editors, managers and owners are all working now at cross purposes it seems.