Difference between Lalitha,Lalitha panchamam and Paras.

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

Folks: Would appreciate Vidyarthis educating me on the differences between the three ragas--Lalitha,Lalitha
Panchamam and Paras.

Isn't there a Swathi kriti Paramapurusham in Lalitha Panchamam--besides the Vasantha kriti?

[arasi]

Yes. There is. Parama purusham hrudaya bhAvEyE...I forget the rest. It does have the words vara lalitha pancamam.
You said 'vidyaarthi'. If he isn't too busy, he would be the perfect person to explain it to us!

[keerthi]

LALITAPANCAMAM

There are two species of lalitapancamam - with a kAkali Ni (more visible) and witha kaisiki Ni (Less so)

If I recollect right, NSG has in a concert sung the song 'paramapurushaM' in the former version - as a MALavagaula janya. He has also explained the raga as a 'lalita with pancamam'.

This is very popular, and many doyens have sung this version.

tentative scale - srgmDns snd-mpm-grS

the other species uses kaishiki ni, is a janya of vakulabharanaM, and has a chaya of vasantabhairavi. The pradarshini describes this species. i have a krti 'brihadiswariM', of MD, sung in this strain of lalitapancamam.

I have also heard 'paramapurusham' performed in this version.
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LALITA

Again, there are two species.

In the oral traditions, especially in Andhra, what we now call vasanta has been sung under the name of lalita; i.e, smgmdns sndmgrs as a suryakanta janyam

curiously enough, I know of a pAThAntara, where the adi tAla varnam is sung in malavagaula-born lalita, and nannu brovu lalita in modern vasanta..!


from the textual tradition, of several sources, lalita is a janya of malavagaula.

The books give srgmdns sndmgrs as the scale; but i have only noticed smgm, srgrs and sggm phrases in songs. any srgm is a recent contrivance.

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PHARAS

Known alternately as paras,paraj,paraz, pharas, pharaj, pharaz [and all those names with a u at the end] and pharz; it is a desya raga.

There is some semblance to the popular species of lalitapancama, but is fleeting.

The nyasa phrases landing on the G are signature pharas. mpG where G is actually pmG. similar nyAsa-s on pa, add charm.

There are certain phrases where the D is slightly sharp, and is incrementally higher than shuddha D.

All sorts of scale-boggling sancaras like srgr, srgm, sggm, smgm, mddp, mdpmpG, mdn, pdn, nsrsns, nsndP, sn/P can be seen in this raga.

Only in the javali 'smarasundaranguni' of subbarayyayyar is a single pratimadhyama occurrence noticeable. This is a deliberate introduction.

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to borrow a phrase from the HK thread, i have rushed in where angels fear to tread..!

[arasi]

Keerthi,
Of learned vidyaarthis in the forum other than 'vidyaarthi' NSG, not only are you wise for your age, you deliver pronto too!
Interesting that such overlaps (exchange ofrAgA names too) exist in some of the Andhra schools.

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

Keerthi: Thanks for your prompt enlightening response---the forum QueenWordsmith(aka Arasi has spoken eloquently about you--Need I add more about your Vidwath!!

Uday,thank you for your prompt phone call--If only I could erase my ignorance all the time with lightning-speed clarifications from the forumites such as this time,but then that will be beyond ordinary mortals' lifespan!!!

Arasi: The Lalitha Panchamam Krithi Paramapurusham was first sung by K.R.Kumaraswamy(elder brother of Kedaranathan) in the forties. However the Vasantha kriti became more famous. perhaps your cousin Srinivasan(World bank) can throw some light on it because he is from Thiruvananthapuram and these characters that I mention are well known to him.

[arasi]

Thanks for the nice words, Ramesh. Please, queen only by name and the 'wordsmith' title belongs to you!
I've briefly met Keerthi last season when we were having dinner and in walked Thimma and family along with this young man. He is no doubt an asset to RasikAs.
I remember seeing Kumaraswamy in my childhood. Have met Kedaranathan several times. It's Atma that I haven't met.

[rbharath]

i quote here my writeup from an old lecdem by Dr VV Srivatsa on lalitA and paras.

hope, it is off some use

http://me-and-music.blogspot.com/2007/1 ... priya.html

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

Thanks Bharath!! That's WHAT I love about this forum--Just when you think you have seen and heard it all a gem link like this comes out!! Rasikas' antennae are very powerful!!

WHO THE HECK NEEDS GOOGLE SEARCH OR WIKIPEDIA SO long as we all have each other!!!!

[cmlover]

Yes indeed MKR!
We have the most knowledeable persons as well as the best team of helpers!
Let us maintain our quality of service at this Forum to the CM world.
Now that the oldtimers are returning I still feel the absence of our dear 'meena' who would find information faster than any Google can and who also served as the Right hand of Lakshman.
With Thimma's return I also pray for the return of meena and of course dear DRS who was our priceless information source on CM!

[arasi]

Meena, the lightening speed with which she would deliver!
And DRS! If only he would care to visit us once in a while!

[mankuthimma]

And old joke from these portals , recirculated.For the benefit of newcomers.
Quote from a Vintage Readers Digest
Quote
During one of my first sessions in the US senate, Hamilton Lewis came over and sat down beside me. He was the chief whip at that time.
“Don’t start out with an inferiority complex” he told me.
“For the first six months you will wonder how you managed to get in here - and after that you will wonder how the rest of us got in here.”
Unquote

[arasi]

Worth repeating, Thimma!

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

Thanks to Udhay I got to meet "Meena" in person--(Udhay correct me if I am wrong!!).Now I would like to see her active in posting!!

How about an Old Timers' day at the forum when all of us would post?

We should have more "posters" and less of the "Impostors"(P Joke!! apologies)

[cmlover]

awaiting your start on the SSI saga!

[arasi]

Ramesh,
Isn't every day an old timer's day as it is

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

Arasi: Do you have to remind me of my age? Is it not enough if my creaky joints remind me all the time in apaswaram mode!!

CM Lover SSI saga WILL start next week - after this weekend --BECAUSE this weekend for those NY/NJ/Conn. area Rasikas residents,there is a treat --Myself and my wife I are singing as part of the Hindu temple Choir led by Chandrika Tandon(elder sister of Indira Nooyi and a Top management Consultant in the NY area and a wonderful singer--mostly North Indian-listen to her CD Om Namo Narayana ).

We are singing on the Hindu Unity Day(key note speaker -Subramaniam Swamy). I hope neither of these factors inhibit you from your usual visit to the Temple on Sunday !!!

Now for those of you who live far away from NY please do not be too complacent!! We may be visiting YOUR town to perform--This "Kumbalodhu-Govinda Goshti" will be taking NA and Canada by storm--so says our Leader Chandrika-- the eternal optimist who would put Micawber(a character in Oliver twist) to shame!!
Sorry for the digression-Now back to lalitha Panchamam.lalitha etc.

[narayan]

Folks: Would appreciate Vidyarthis educating me on the differences between the three ragas--Lalitha,Lalitha
Panchamam and Paras.

Isn't there a Swathi kriti Paramapurusham in Lalitha Panchamam--besides the Vasantha kriti?

Informal view, aside from the Vasanta/Lalita business, is that Lalitapanchamam is exactly what it says, Lalita with the panchamam - a la Jayantasri and Hindolam - and it is surprising that you have not heard Paramapurusha in LP, since it was sung quite often by KVN, and is also part of the staple diet of K.S.Gopalakrishnan the flautist. About Paras (I like rbharath's spelling variations in his blog), it is like some of our grandmothers, grand and old and whimsical. One sukra bhagavantam is enough to put the raga right up there. There are quite a few other ragas floating around in this space, if you need any more confusion, including this Chaya gaula and Takka and whatnot (excellent ragas, no doubt, but barely surviving).

[arasi]

Ramesh,
Why think of the creaking bones and aching joints? Did you forget that I'm also part of the league and gab more than you do? So, it applies equally to all of us, the golden age crowd--a vocal segment of Rasikas!
Very nice to hear that you and Nirmala are singing along with Chandrika.Wishing you all the very best in your choral singing.

[venkatakailasam]

Informal view, aside from the Vasanta/Lalita business, is that Lalitapanchamam is exactly what it says, Lalita with the panchamam - a la Jayantasri and Hindolam - and it is surprising that you have not heard Paramapurusha in LP, since it was sung quite often by KVN, and is also part of the staple diet of K.S.Gopalakrishnan the flautist. About Paras (I like rbharath's spelling variations in his blog), it is like some of our grandmothers, grand and old and whimsical. One sukra bhagavantam is enough to put the raga right up there. There are quite a few other ragas floating around in this space, if you need any more confusion, including this Chaya gaula and Takka and whatnot (excellent ragas, no doubt, but barely surviving).[/quote]

Shri. KVN 's rendering is at this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG7-OpoEIFs 'E'SWARA- 001-KV Narayana swamy-ParamaPurusham-LalitaPanchamam-Jhampa-STirunal

Mumbai Jayashree at :

Mumbai Jayashree- Parama Purusham-Lalitha Panchama:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/file/bgf5rbjyjzk053b

venkatakailasam

[RaviSri]

'Keerti: any srgm is a recent contrivance'

It is not. K.V.Srinivasa Iyengar in his 'Thyagaraja Hridayam' begins the notation for 'sItamma mAyamma' as SRGM. There is a SRG phrase occuring in 'nanu brOvu lalitA'. In hiraNmayIm' too there are RG=RGM phrases.

[vainika]

LALITA
The books give srgmdns sndmgrs as the scale; but i have only noticed smgm, srgrs and sggm phrases in songs. any srgm is a recent contrivance.

I'm assuming your definition of 'recent' includes Subburama Dikshitar, whose notation of MD's hiraNmayIm features
srG;M in the pallavI (bhajAmi)
rgrn-nrgm in the anupallavi (maNimayavalayAm)
SRS;RG;MM; in the charaNam (kamalAmbikAm parAm),
ns rg gM,-dm in the madhyamakAlam (shrita chintAmaNi)

and Venkatamakhi whose lakshya gItam includes
RSRNSRGM(ghorataruva)

[addendum 'cos I can't delete my post. Just read RaviSri's post that made the same point]

[keerthi]

Ravi, Vainika,

After reading Ravi's post, I went to the pradarshini, and observed the same things that you mention. Clearly my comment on srgm being recent is wrong.


Vainika, isn't it a bit problematic that we treat ()vEnkaTamakhin as a pramANa for the srgm phrase, but neglect to add that he hasn't used dns [but once] in his treatment of the rAga, it is mostly ddS. How can we treat evidence piecemeal ?

Somehow, I'm still inclined to believe that lalita with an equal proportion of smgm and srgm may be more suitable. All the scalar lalita I hear, seems alien to my ears. It may be a personal quirk.

Ravi, SubbarAma dikSitar in the prathamAbhyAsapustakamu notates sItamma mAyamma without a single srgm phrase. He also observes that vEnkatamakhi allows for the srgm sancAra.

[srikant1987]

Keerthi, I TOTALLY agree with you about scalar lalitA! (Was going to say something similar myself ... but you overtook.) There should be more sgm and smgm in lalitA for me too ... Even hiraNmayIm lakShmIm isn't all that srgm/scalar.

In fact lalitA was the "latest fad" last year, I think, everyone scalarizing it left, right and centre. I got so annoyed at a "srgmdns/sndmgrs" last year at Naada Surabhi, I left and returned later.

[vainika]

Vainika, isn't it a bit problematic that we treat ()vEnkaTamakhin as a pramANa for the srgm phrase, but neglect to add that he hasn't used dns [but once] in his treatment of the rAga, it is mostly ddS. How can we treat evidence piecemeal?

Very true, I also wondered about the profusion of ddS in ()vEnkaTamakhin, and their absence in other compositions.

I am inclined to take hiraNmayIm as the more substantive evidence for SRGM. Note that SMGM appears only once this composition.

Also, SRGMDNS/SNDMGRS mUrchanA notwithstanding, one could still handle lalitA emphasizing the characteristic clusters of pUrvAnga and uttarAnga prayOgas, without resorting to breakneck scalar sprints up and down the octave.

[RaviSri]

Keerthi, I was only pointing out that SRGM prayOga was there in Lalita, not that it should be used in profusion. Even in 'hiraNmayIm' there are only two instances of SRGM prayOga. Ultimately, the difference beteen Lalita and Vasanta lies in the ethos of the two ragas, the main rasA of Lalita being that of pathos. It will be a case of much ado about nothing if we only argue in terms of mere swaras.

[srikant1987]

Also, SRGMDNS/SNDMGRS mUrchanA notwithstanding, one could still handle lalitA emphasizing the characteristic ... prayOgas, without resorting to breakneck scalar sprints up and down the octave.

Agreed. mUrcana is just two phrases that are acceptable in the rAgam. At least for a rAgam like lalitA ... Problem is many people take non-vakra mUrcanas to mean that a rAgam is scalar.