Vid. T.M. Krishna's article in The Hindu

[VijayR]

Vidwan T.M. Krishna has written an opinion piece in The Hindu about the CM experience, kutcheri format, etc. The link is given below. Certainly raises some interesting questions, but in my humble opinion, an equally articulate rebuttal can be made for several of the issues he raises.

====================================
http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article2874909.ece

Carnatic vocalist T.M. Krishna voices his thoughts on Carnatic music, its format and the experience it offers.

Over the past few years, I have tried to look at the Carnatic music performance structure in ways that are not common with regard to our memory of Carnatic music. I don't consider my interpretation of a concert an innovation; they are all questions, which I am posing both to myself and the community at large. This discussion is not about the appreciation (or not) of these changes. These are open to varied reactions depending on one's own conditioning and perception of music or even life.
...
...

====================================

[Sivaramakrishnan]

I would very much like to know why no 'innovations' are happening in Hindustani music! High standards prevail there too.

[vinsim]

TMK is against
1. blindly following standard concert format
2. concert as in "the service of spiritualism, religion or entertainment"
3. ragas being destroyed as new interpretations
4. violation of the position of the syllables while singing niraval
5. Kalpanaswaras used only for mathematics and climax.
6. tani avarthanams that are mere displays of virtuosity
7. the new age rasikas who have lost the basic sensitivity towards the "real" sampradaya

I read somewhere how he was hugely influenced by Jiddu Krishnamurthi. So whenever he launches a tirade against an audience who he believes are blindly conforming to tradition, I can understand where he is coming from. Indeed #1 through #7 are all worthy points.

But there is always a risk of going too far in that direction....like he does with the concert format. Starting off with a tiruppugazh or singing some krithis exceedingly slow or singing raga/tana but no pallavi - all of these seem less of an aesthetic experience and more of a display of arrogance to the paying public.

In the last paragraph, it seems he is in some spiritual conflict regarding a battle between social structure and self-awareness (whatever that means) - so, I guess until he finds some answers he will impose his experiments on the poor audience

[srikant1987]

Was just waiting for this.

[sureshvv]

Agree with most of what vinsim says... except the "poor audience" part... they get what they richly deserve

[varsha]

I would very much like to know why no 'innovations' are happening in Hindustani music! High standards prevail there too.

agreed . the last time something happened was in 1908 when abdul karim khan , for the first time in history , announced a raga before it was performed .
this was at sholapur when he first announced the name of the raga and daughter hirabai - aged 4 1/2 sang the alaap and son suresh babu - aged 7 - sang the sargam.
Until then No one had ever heard a raga being developed , with the knowledge of its name beforehand !!!!!
That name would come into being , only as the performance progressed.
---------------------------------------

[bilahari]

except the "poor audience" part... they get what they richly deserve

+1

[srikant1987]

Varsha,

I don't believe you.

I think Hindustani music concerts these days feature more items than they used to.

Besides, I think rAgas are sung in "inappropriate" times of the day too.

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Srikant1987, let me quote your latest post :

"I think Hindustani music concerts these days feature more items than they used to.
Besides, I think rAgas are sung in "inappropriate" times of the day too."

You mean to say these are some innovations in H-music?

[varsha]

I don't believe you.

My " agreed " was tongue in cheek .
HM has had major changes through the course of this century and which can be a separate subject .
Here I was just trying to impress that once upon a time , even announcing the name of the raga before performing it was considered wrong by many .

[poincare]

7. the new age rasikas who have lost the basic sensitivity towards the "real" sampradaya

I read somewhere how he was hugely influenced by Jiddu Krishnamurthi. So whenever he launches a tirade against an audience who he believes are blindly conforming to tradition,

Vinsim, could you kindly elaborate on what you consider tradition... a concert format that was started in the 1930s dictating a musical system that is centuries older!

So what is "THE TRADITION" in carnatic music...

And here is a general question..

"If rasikas.org was there in the 1930, would people go ballistic on Ariyakudi for his innovation... with things like..
"Oh man this guy is screwing up our tradition.."
"we used to have one raga explored and elaborated for hours and he is making music commercial by shortening them"
"he sings something called thuripugal.. what is this? apparently he tuned it himself...."

When does an innovation become a tradition.. Is it the survival of the popular-est? If so why not try something new or revert to something from the past as TMK on some of his "so-termed"(termed by us) innovation ... and please don't tell me "music is for the rasikas.." That is NOT how you enjoy an art form... tailored to X Y and Z

[kvchellappa]

When Ariyakkudi introduced the new format, it was not haphazard. It was thought out musically in a sound way -see the encomiums it earned from no less a luminary of contemporary times viz. GNB or Sriram Parasuram recently. Its structure had aesthetics, sampradaya, janaranjaka, all packaged in an imaginative way. What TMK is doing is shuffling things with no scheme whatever, implicit or explained. Well, do what he might, I would always love to listen to him because he presents good music no matter in what order he does it.
But, I doubt if it can catch on because it lacks a plan. He is sincere to the art and so pulls crowds. All great artists were listened to because they were true to what they were doing. But, to blaze a tradition, something else may be required.

[vasanthakokilam]

>even announcing the name of the raga before performing it was considered wrong by many .

Yup. Let me expand that to make a general point.

What is usually seen with CM concerts abroad is, artists announce the raga if the hosting association is not a regular CM organization, say a fund raiser type of concert since they expect many non-cm listeners in the audience. Artists are sensitive enough to cater to that. It is a good thing. Now we do not see the same artists doing that in Music Academy. There are probably some non-CM listeners in the audience at MA but they cater to the "many".

Moral of the story 1: The "many" in any classical music audience is the hero and villain, hero in maintaining the tradition and the villain in stifling innovation. It is not necessarily the artists. ( the sub text to this story is, the divide between artists and audience was much fuzzier hundred(s) of years back when the general public was not participating as audience but nowadays the divide is very clear )

Moral of the story 2: Innovation is normally equated by classical music audiences with dilution and decline of quality. It is again a problem of the "many" and not the artists. It need not be that way. Take Jazz for example, another 3% genre. Innovation and expansion of the boundaries are part of the system. The "many" expect and demand pushing the boundaries while they listen and enjoy what is already part of the system. No one can reasonably claim that Jazz as a discipline has declined in quality. In fact, if boundaries are not pushed, they would consider that stagnation as a decline in the vitality of the music. They have somehow struck the balance on the notions 'steadiness' ( tradition ) and ever changing boundary ( innovations ). If such thirst from the "many" is absent, any innovation will only be very modest, incremental and many times trivial.

Moral of the story 3: There are indeed many "many"s. Pop audience is a "many" too, but they are transient and scattered. It is good to be aware of such transient "many" and not draw major conclusions from such transient and scattered audiences.

[sureshvv]

How about this moral:

Innovation should never be a goal. There should be a more fundamental gut-level purpose behind any change.

[vasanthakokilam]

Yes, definitely.

[arasi]

Suresh, you said it so well.

VK,
Yes, it's a matter of who the 'many' are, in an given audience.

When it comes to the Academy, I don't know. Why? They have been publishing their souvenir with concert lists for ever so many years!

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

ARASI: Re: Academy souvenir publishing the concert lists--this has some unintended consequences when the musician switches the Raga but the opening line of the Sahitya is the same example--Entanerchina(Suddha Danyasi as well as Saveri!! The uninitiated listener may be fooled if the vocalist does not announce the change in the raga of the kriti--an anecdote(not necessarily related to the TMK Innovation(which is getting heated up so much that a touch of levity may not be unwelcome!!). SOURCE: Flute Ramani on the occasion of VR's 80th Birthday celebs @ P.S. High School Hall)


Circa early Thirties--Scene in Kumbakonam -- Alathur bros making their debut with Maharajapuram V in the front row. It seems they (the bros) do not draw up a list on paper but discuss before the concert what items they are going to render not necessarily the sequence. The custom was one of them would give a slight lead to the song and the other will catch on and follow--the follow-up would be so instantaneous that the audience would never notice there was a slight lag. Subbier leads with Entha Nerchina(suddha danyasi) Srinivasa Iyer starts with Enthanerchina in Saveri--Subbier thinks that he made the mistake of starting the suddha danyasi song and immediately switches to Saveri--in the meantime Sreenivasa Iyer likewise thinks that he made the mistake and switches to Enthanerchina in Suddha Danyasi--this faux pa continues for one or two rounds much to the amusement of the audience when Maharajapuram gets up and says IN TAMIL gesturing with the Thumb-up -fingers closed sign of questioning ENTHA NERCHINA PADA POREL(Which Enthanerchina are you going to sing?)-- much to the amusement of the audience!!

The tradition vs Innovation debate is nothing new and will never be resolved even if the entire artiste community decides to follow TMK--as most of the musicians did from the ARI era almost 100 years ago. The true test is whether generations yet to come will maintain the TMK tradition--only time will tell--some departures from the traditions of the trinity were made by some of the disciples of the trinity themselves---for example Thyagaraja has not used the Kakali Nishagda Prayogam in his Khamas krithis(Seethapathe and Sujana Jeevana) whereas Vasudevachar -- a great-grand disciple of Saint Thyagaraja(Manambuchavadi-Patnam Subramani Iyer lineage) used it in his Brocheva and has caught on very well with the artistes as well as the public. I also think that MD has not used the Kakali Nishada prayogam in his krithis,Sarasadala Nayana or Santhanagopalakrishnam--(I would like to be corrected on this by Vidyarthis in the forum) which leads me to believe that the Kakali Nishadam prayogam was not in vogue during the Trinity's time(I am not aware of any kritis by Syama Sastry in Kamas either so that it is not clear if he used it in his kritis). This may not be a great breach of tradition in our modern-day perspective but considering the orthodoxy of the times this should have raised eyebrows amongst the diehards--apparently it did not and today Khamas w/o Kakali Nishadam is rare!!. My point and my personal perspective towards this issue is simply to go with an open mind and try to assimilate what the artiste is trying to do whether it conforms to the format we are used to or not. Most of the times we are swayed by the presentation rather than by any deviation from the tradition--although I am conservative(trust me I have gone the Full Circle over the last 6 decades of listening ) I try to narrow my focus on three DIMENSIONS:

WHAT IS THE ARTISTE TRYING TO DO? HOW WELL DID HE/SHE EXECUTE THE IDEA HE/SHE WAS ATTEMPTING? AND LASTLY WHAT WAS THE EFFECT?--THIS LAST DIMENSION IS PURELY SUBJECTIVE BUT THE OTHER TWO CANNOT HAVE TWO OPINIONS. Over the years this has served me well--so if TMK sings the Kambodhi Varnam(Sarasija) midway thro a concert, I may be flummoxed a little but I focus on how well he rendered it. ARI,ALATHUR,GNB always started with a Varnam(ofcourse GNB used to start with Swaminatha Paripalaya(nattai) sometimes but mostly Varnam. SSI and MMI rarely started with Varnam(SSI will start with either Vallabhanayakasya in Begada or Deva Deva Kalayami Mayamalavagowla and MMI would start with Vatapiganapathim or Nadathanumanisam. None of us felt the deviation detracted from the concerts.

[Ponbhairavi]

TMK’s article.
As he has said that “these are all questions that I am posing to myself and the community at large”,I give below my perceptions as a music rasika.

“What is art music? Is music and performance of music the same?”
My answer is based on a personal experience. About 55 years back flute Mali came to Pondy to perform in a sabha. He came late to the venue,uttered some short notes through the bamboo, promptly gave a thani,then some intermittent boo boo sounds in the flute sketched some ragas and krithis in an haphazard manner. The concert was an utter disappointment to the audience
He was put up in the Sankar Lodge where I was also staying in a bachelor’s room.Around 11 pm, I woke up hearing some strands of flute music which came floating in the midnight still air. I got up came out, and followed the music to the open terrace(mottai maadi ) where Mali was sitting in a parapet wall oblivious of everything. Slowly exquisite music ( out of which I still remember the mohanam ) flowed out from the pipe, ragas, swarams…No audience there except me and my room mate and we sat silently behind him where he could not notice us. No sruthi box , no accompaniment, nothing.It went up to 1-30 am unearthly music in an unearthly hour.
I consider what I heard at the open terrace as art music and what he played at the sabha as performance music

Is experience of art music an entertainment or something more?.
It is certainly not an entertainment as nobody was entertained and nothing was asked for nor needed at that time. May be Mali entertained himself or better he could not desist himself from expressing his art out.

“ By something more, I refer to the openness of the experience of music and the freedom to ACCEPT and perform music as an expression beyond the confines of a format ”
There was no format, The question of acceptance or otherwise does not arise at all for art music .Probably when Oothukadu or any other vaggeyakara had been singing and dancing their compositions, they did not seek nor expect any acceptance from anybody. Chances are that there was none at all.

“ to me the space of performance is immaterial to art music . The music that I believe is the same whether I sing in the private space of my house or in front of an audience.”
I beg to disagree.The statement appears correct only in part ( upto the space of my house.) If in perfect freedom I go anywhere I please, a temple, a park or beach or a highway and sing my heart out, then yes. But If I go to a predetermined place, at a fixed and pre advertised time in a preplanned attire,
Where I know that hundreds of people are waiting for me( in other words if I do not have the freedom NOT to go there that means if I am committed to mark mypresence there, the question of acceptance by the expectants is inescapable. But if curious passers-by gather around me in a temple or park in an unexpected manner then I need no acceptance from anyone as I did not expect them there, nor did they expect me there.( pl confront the mali episode.)

“ art music is in my opinion not a service of spiritualism religion or entertainment’
Yes in the Mali example quoted art music is certainly not a service of spiritualism, religion, or entertainment.—I would add money or fame earning also. In fact it is not in service of anything at all. But when Thyagarajaswamy
sings hetsarika ga rara at night in his humble abode in his daily Dolotsavam it IS art music at the service of spiritualism and religion. When his disciples and some bhagavathars( there are many of them even now!!) sing the same songs or other such compositions ( without any remuneration ) in their bhajanai kalyana utsavam in front of sleepy scanty audience, it is art music at the service of religion.In fact 99 per cent of the compositions of all the great Vaggeyakaras which form the corpus of the repertoire of carnatic music today are art music at the service of religion. Therefore whether it is at the service of spiritualism or religion or entertainment depends only upon the singer.
( to be continued )

[arasi]

Ponbhairavi,
Waiting for the rest...

[vasanthakokilam]

As per request by rajeshnat, the mali related posts were moved to the Mali thread: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=506

[Ponbhairavi]

The format is a convenience that gives us a method of presentation.

True. But it has been evolved over years of experience, something like a south Indian meal, kalyana sappadu, with a succession of varied items in a particular order. The fact that restaurant facilities are provided at the sabha venues underlines the extent of similarities between செவிக்கு உணவு and , வயிற்றுக்கு உணவு .When I eat at home, I can eat curd rice first and then sambar. But in a wedding reception(where no money is charged ) or in a restaurant which charges money(different rates for ordinary and special meals) like different rates of tickets for different kutcheries if only தயிர் சாதம் orசர்க்கரை பொங்கல் is provided, then it is not satisfying. ,however much it can be quantitatively or qualitatively In fairness it must be accepted that the “menu “ or format is not so rigid, but offers plenty of scope of alternatives or combinations.

[b]Is it the only or even the best expression of music?

Not necessarily. But it should be acknowledged that it has stood the test of time during periods when two to three thousand concerts were not packed in a single city within a short period of 2 to 3 months,. It is quite probable that this “pressure” has created a subconscious revolt against the “shackles” of established format. But demolishing the format may not be the solution . We may not burn the house in anger against the bed bugs.

-it is astonishing that nobody seems to be bothered when ragas are massacred, compositions given scant respect.”
-We are happy (?) to justify ragas being destroyed as new interpretations and innovations”
“ -neraval singing is dead today”
“ -Kalpana swaras are used only for mathematics or climax(why not ?)
-Thani avarthanams are mere display of virtuosity ( what is wrong about it ?)

I have a feeling that TMK’s grievances are exaggerated.

“ Presenting padams ,varnam and swarajathiswhich are serious compositions as central pieces has authenticity as those were some of the forms that dominated the sphere of compositional music in the past”

The above forms plus thillana and javalis receive better treatment in dance music. Their compositional value is not questioned . The “ titillating”(another ) thillana in kundalavarali by Dr. Balamuralikrishna comes to my mind)They do have their place in the menu and many not grudge if TMK directs the focus on them taking one item in one concert.

“Alapana without following it with a composition”[/]

Raga alapana is like a dress or new outfit made by an innovative and imaginative designer . A composition is a mannequin or model. The beauty of a dress is seen best when it is worn by a suitable person.

“what is the difference between watching a variety entertainment program and a carnatic music concert.?”

A variety entertainment program can be enjoyed by ANY lay man. Carnatic music is for the initiated only. There are plenty of people who cannot be made to sit in a concert hall for 15 minutes even if you pay them hundreds of rupees.

What is the difference between Nama sangeerthanam and a carnatic music concert?

Nama sangeerthanam has the avowed objective of elevating the moral fabric of a person by involving his direct and active participation. It is bhakthi pracharam- propagation of bhakthi.
Active participation may be a nuisance in a music concert.

“What is the difference between a trapeze artist and a singer?”

In a circus we marvel at the physical potentialities of human body and we are awed by the precision of the execution .It is a visual pleasure like sculpture or painting. In a music concert we marvel at the imaginative potentialities of an artist and the prowess of his vocal chords(or fingers) as he creates an abstract world for aural pleasure.

“ compositions are presented for titillation and that seems to be enough.”

What is wrong about it. The menu has a place for pickles -part of the arusuvai at the proper dose ( God has created கிடாரங்காய் exclusively for that purpose and which has no other use.

Art music becomes performance music the minute it has to take into consideration not only the audience but also and more importantly the accompanists .It is a fact that the present format has several deficiencies one of which is justified dissatisfaction among the accompanists .In fairness it must be acknowledged that TMK has done considerable lot to give due recognition to the violinists and mridangists. Such innovations are welcome and need to be encouraged.
Nearing the end let us go back to the beginning (a la Krishna ). It is TMK who has proposed a new expression coined by him “art music ” and has asked for the definition of “ what is art music”. Dr M. Balamuralikrishna prefers the appellation of Shastriya sangeetham. This seems to be quite adequate if we have nothing against shastras and our religious cultural tradition. It is undeniable that carnatic music has a strong undercurrent of Bhakthi ,which pervades in all the compositions. Even when a performer does not believe in bhakthi, the listener enjoys a bliss due to the bhava embedded in the composition, and the raga’s mesmerizing impact on human soul . Carnatic music was born in religious altar, nurtured and cultivated in temples , puja rooms and religious festivities. It is impossible to separate carnatic music from its religious connotation. If by the name of “art music’we wish to paint it with a “secular” coating ,we have to wait for a new set of agnostic or atheist composers well versed in all the technicalities of the musical “science” to come forward to create a new repertoire finding inspiration for “arputha rasa” in natural sceneries, karunya rasa in the plight of the victims of sunami-like calamities ,rowthra rasa in the face of national level corruption, soga rasa in the victims of planted bomb blasts and bibatsa rasa at the “ignorant” believers
The wait will be long, not in terms of decades but in centuries.
Rajagopalan.

[Nick H]

Ponbhairavi, your hammer must be red hot, for you have hit so many nails on the head

It is TMK who has proposed a new expression coined by him “art music ”

And it makes no sense. All music is art. Yes, even the jingle of a TV advertisement required some sort of creative spark in its composition. The world talks about "classical" music (although, strictly, we misuse the term to the extent that I can't even remember its real definition); we can, very specifically, talk about "carnatic" music because ...err, it's what we are talking about!

There are lots of appropriate adjectives that can be applied to music. Light, serious, heavy, popular, commercial, religious, devotional ...the list goes on as long as the imagination. Different adjectives for different music; different adjectives for the same music in different circumstances. No need to create jargon where language is rich already.

[rajeshnat]

Wonderful Ponbhairavi (rajagopalan Sir), when I met you last year I could see a sense of tejas - a kind of deep understanding and truly a serene personality, now I am seeing more and more in your writing . You being an antakAlathu language professor , it will be a good antidote to intha kAlathu sms english generation.

I would suggest you to write a new topic post - kind of whitepaper on what you think one can expect/experience from carnatic music, kind of connecting indianness, spirituality, religious insight, entertainment , experience etc.

IT NEED NOT BE A REBUTTAL for this article, it can be a new leaf collating all your thoughts , possibly you can write as one big word article convert it as pdf and upload it (at times I find that is the best way to tell everything you wanted to tell in one go , without distractions )

[arasi]

Rajesh,
Ponbhairavi was a language professor, but he taught French. In the Kavidaigal thread, you can read his kavidais, some of them are translations of French poems.

[arunk]

And he enters the lion's den, a bold and perhaps foolish thing thing for one who usually only looks at it afar using a pair of binoculars....

Does anyone care about the position of the syllables while singing niraval?

I find this completely laughable when a person can strictly adhere to the position of the syllables but completely destroy the underlying words as ra ga ga ga ma ga ga ga ni gi gi gi gi nu gu gu gu gu (rAma ninnu - hypothetical). TMK does this, SSI does this etc. etc. What is the point?

What is the aim of neraval? Perhaps texts have precise definitions and rules, but IMO, dance probably uses it the best sense (sanchAri bhAvam) - i.e. elaborate to highlight meaning, extrapolate meaning etc. using the bhAvam inherent in the rAga etc. Additional constraints like above is placed only to highlight/demonstrate vidvat (i.e. it is harder to improvise when you also have to respect more constraints).

My 2 cents

Arun

[rshankar]

Fabulous rebuttal, Sri Rajagopalan! Now, if only the same editors who published Sri TMK's rant would publish your rebuttal too!

Rajesh/Arasi - He was our french professor....

[braindrain]

What is the aim of neraval? Perhaps texts have precise definitions and rules, but IMO, dance probably uses it the best sense (sanchAri bhAvam) - i.e. elaborate to highlight meaning, extrapolate meaning etc. using the bhAvam inherent in the rAga etc. Additional constraints like above is placed only to highlight/demonstrate vidvat (i.e. it is harder to improvise when you also have to respect more constraints).
Arun

Arun, I tend to believe in the same lines.. In 'Kathakali' padams ( which stronlgy routed to classical music tradition), the lines are repeated multiple times until the actor on stage does his bit of interpretation of the 'abhinaya' part of the line. It resembles the neraval singing to some extend, without the 'ga ga ga gu gu gu ' usage. ( One of the complaints of the older generations is that these repetitions started reembling the carnatic style of neraval). Can we say, the neraval singing most probably have a strong connection with dance performances in the early stages of evolution ?

[Ponbhairavi]

Nick. Rajesh, Arasi, Rshankar,
thanks. I was expecting something else!
my 5 tamil books on French literature can be read, downloaded free from the site
frenchliterature .angelfire.com

[poincare]

It is a nice response from Ponbhairavi and though I see some some aspects, I would like to respectfully disagree on some of the points raised.

First of all I personally feel that a logical discussion of any topic should avoid "cliche" comparisons to food and/or any other such items. This is a road block to a further discussions/debate. I can come with any of number of my own "cliches" to make my own point. Seriously who determines which of the concert piece is a "pickle". A song that is pickle for X may be the main item for Y. But in a meal, I think everyone knows what a "pickle" is. Hence these comparisons dont help a logical discussion of the topic in hand.

I consider what I heard at the open terrace as art music and what he played at the sabha as performance music

If I am right you enjoyed the music in the open terrace more.. So "What are the factors that made it "Art Music"? May be is an ecstatic out pour of music with out any expectations, need for applause, looking to satisfy the audience ect. If so why do you disagree with the following statement "The music that I believe is the same whether I sing in the private space of my house or in front of an audience".

Is "Art Music" superoir to "Sabha Music"? If so, should music be diluted to suit the audience/rasika?

Which brings me to a very important question who is a rasika?

In any given concert there is a wide array of audience with varying taste, knowledge, preferences and idiosyncrasies. There is a quite a few of us who think that the so called "tukudas" are a waste of time and should not be a part of the concert. In fact some people that belong to this school of thought even the leave the concert hall after the main piece. Some of us live for the "tukudas" and poor souls we have to be tortured for 2 hours with "tha da ra na na". This is an actual statement from a friend of mine who loves "tukudas".. Why not sing the tukudas first and liberate this poor guy so he can go home.

Should the artist try to satisfy each and every rasika or should he/she present the music in their own style staying true to what the believe good music should be and we as rasikas can pick and choose what we want to listen to.

“ art music is in my opinion not a service of spiritualism religion or entertainment’
Therefore whether it is at the service of spiritualism or religion or entertainment depends only upon the singer.

I disagree here, It actually depends on the listener not on the singer. A singer can render a soul-string "Ranganayakam" but to a listener who does not understand the meaning or who does not believe in this faith it brings no impact on the spirituality. On the other hand a singer can render a composition just as good music without any "spiritualism" attached to it yet a listener can interpret it in a spiritual context. I wonder how many of John Higgins presentation contained the "spiritualism/religion" context in it.

The format is a convenience that gives us a method of presentation.

True. But it has been evolved over years of experience, something like a south Indian meal, kalyana sappadu, with a succession of varied items in a particular order. The fact that restaurant facilities are provided at the sabha venues underlines the extent of similarities between செவிக்கு உணவு and , வயிற்றுக்கு உணவு .When I eat at home, I can eat curd rice first and then sambar. But in a wedding reception(where no money is charged ) or in a restaurant which charges money(different rates for ordinary and special meals) like different rates of tickets for different kutcheries if only தயிர் சாதம் orசர்க்கரை பொங்கல் is provided, then it is not satisfying. ,however much it can be quantitatively or qualitatively In fairness it must be accepted that the “menu “ or format is not so rigid, but offers plenty of scope of alternatives or combinations.

This is where I loose the point being made. I understand there should be variety in the compositions/ragas presented. When one is at home (which I understand one is more comfortable) he/she can eat curd rice then sambar, ie listen to a tillana before a "dakshinamoorthee".. So what happens in a restaurant or a kalyanam, you dont get that or you dont like it in that order.. I dont quite understand..

Can the so called "Ariyakudi's concert format" be challenged? Can a Padam be sung as a main piece? Can varnam be sung in between? Still keeping the variety aspect..

I also think the variety aspect is over-rated. At home many of us listen to the same song (same line even) over and over again.. but complain about variety when we go for a concert.

How much does "paying for the concert" determine our expectations from the same concert? If so does a person who got the Rs 500 ticket have a better say in what the pieces should be rather than a person who got a Rs 25 ticket.

If an artist is giving a free concert does he/she have the ultimate freedom to present any thing? Shouldn't music be the ultimate thing?

“Alapana without following it with a composition”[/]

Raga alapana is like a dress or new outfit made by an innovative and imaginative designer . A composition is a mannequin or model. The beauty of a dress is seen best when it is worn by a suitable person.

A bad analogy. I can give you some N number of examples from recordings of masters where the raga alapanai has nothing to do with the composition. By listening to the alapanai most of the time we cannot guess what the composition is. I really dont think the human brain can remember 45 min of alapanai and co-process it with the composition (45 min laer) to appreciate them both together. I do know some Jazz musicians who love the Alpanai and think the composition is less appealing. Not to forget that the very same system had one raga presented for hours and even alapanai as an independent piece. Even today in hindustani music alapanai is give the utmost importance and compositions hang off of it.

Are we so conditioned to listening in a particular way that we not willing to accept anything else?

“ Presenting padams ,varnam and swarajathiswhich are serious compositions as central pieces has authenticity as those were some of the forms that dominated the sphere of compositional music in the past”

The above forms plus thillana and javalis receive better treatment in dance music. Their compositional value is not questioned . The “ titillating”(another ) thillana in kundalavarali by Dr. Balamuralikrishna comes to my mind)They do have their place in the menu and many not grudge if TMK directs the focus on them taking one item in one concert.

I beg to disagree here. I dont think the musical presentation of padams and javali's get better treatment in dance music for the following reasons. 1) the lines are repeated way to many times.. 2) I cannot say the a padam rendered by Brinda as a vocal piece is the same quality as those rendered in a dance performance. 3) the subtle nuances of Dhanammal school gamakas get lost in a setting of a dance concert. 4) the tempo (kala-pramanam) is different.. 5) the mridangam is louder in a dance for these padams... They simply are not the same.

I would like close back with the following question...

What is art music? Can it be defined with a set of parameters or is it subjective? Is Art Music is superior to "Sabha Music" If so why do we have "Sabha Music"?

[Ranganayaki]

Such a nice discussion, just wanted to add my thoughts to it.. I agree with a lot of what Poincare says.. and I enjoyed reading Ponbhairavi's thoughts.

Isn’t all music art? It comes from the heart of a person, and adds beauty and romance to life.. it’s art, whether it’s performance music, set in a sabha, or a temple, or a corner of your home. Music brings romance to life, the something extra that takes away the mundane and elevates and exalts us in different ways. How it elevates and exalts us depends on who we are, as rasikas or as a musician. But it is definitely beyond the mundane. It IS art, always.

Music is not like a meal, or like clothing on a mannequin.. these comparisons are valid to a certain extent, but music or any art is way beyond such limiting comparisons.

Money does play a part in the daily life of the musician-artist, but once in the sabha, and the doors are closed, once in the temple and you are before the deity, once in your little corner in your home playing your own tamboora, money is not part of the "equation" at all, it is forgotten and has absolutely no bearing on the artistic production or the enjoyment. The rasika in the last row might be way more privileged here than the one in the specially reserved seats. Talking about music as a recompense for money paid is the same as taking the life out of a work of art, there it’s like taking the romance out of an evening at a restaurant by considering the number of tables multiplied by the number of guests, multiplied by the amount spent by each guest, minus the overheads and admiring the business turnover of the place, when you should be enjoying the company of the person(s) you are with, and the taste of the food.
Music comes from the mind of a person, it is personal and subjective. It comes from a place of freedom, and a musician must necessarily be free to produce the art in the form and format he chooses at that moment. Rasikas must be free to love it or hate it.

[vasanthakokilam]

Music brings romance to life, the something extra that takes away the mundane and elevates and exalts us in different ways.

Ranganayaki, I very much like your take on what music is and what music does, and what romance means in this context. Right on!

[Ponbhairavi]

This thread is about TMK's article. He has raised some questions and sought the views on them.I have given mine.Any one who has different ANSWERS can state them straight and they need not be based on mine. Ranganayaki has done that.If they have questions on those questions( Poincare has raised more than a dozen) then they should be addressed to him.

[Nick H]

I think that TMK just might be glad that, in this instance, he has stimulated more discussion than personal criticism.

[arasi]

Ranganayaki,
You are a free thinking rasikA with the right frame of mind. I'm sure many performers are happy to sing/play to rasikAs like you

[vasanthakokilam]

he has stimulated more discussion than personal criticism

Yes, true on the content though TMK's article itself was not a smooth read. Let me rant a bit about his writing skills. He strings along multiple phrases with parenthetical thoughts thrown in for good measure ( figuratively, and literally like this comment ). It reads like the first draft of a blog or forum post. I do not blame TMK for not being good at writing. Hindu should have appointed a staff editor to re-write the article.

On the content itself, I was with him when he was making the case that in olden times, what we call as innovation now was quite standard then and so what he sometimes does in concerts is not innovation at all. I think that one point is major enough for the central theme of that article. But he lost the plot in the second half where he went on to all sorts of shrapnel of topics and questions, as if this is the last ever article he gets to write on this topic ( e.g The niraval item Arun picked out ). That is usually not a good combination: A major newspaper publishing the first draft of a dump-all article.

We are doing a good job in figuring out what TMK intended to convey and then debate it. Excellent job especially by Ponbhairavi, Poincare and Ranganayaki. Hope TMK gets to read this thread. If he does not want to comment here, that is perfectly fine, he can post his reactions at his site.

[Ranganayaki]

VK, your thoughts on the article really interested me and tempted me to add this.

My impression on reading the first paragraph of TMK’s writing is that he is reacting to the uproar – here or elsewhere - over his so-called innovations , the shuffling of the concert format.

I was discussing TMK yesterday with a regular concert goer who is unlikely to post his views here. He had an insightful comment that TMK is probably in some kind of transitional phase, and wants to make a change, but doesn’t know how to go about it. This puts into perspective the “rebel without a cause” criticism in the rebuttal article (The Hindu), which to me seems negative and rather unsympathetic of the writer.

Re-reading the TMK article, I tend to agree with my friend, but it is not so much a change that he seems to be searching for, but his own artistic raison d’etre. I think this is a part of his professional maturing, where he is now established as an artist and is taking a step back to understand the dynamics of the interaction and mutual influence that goes on between rasika and vidwan. Having been extensively reviled for his tactics, he does seem to question himself and the wider body of rasikas. I would say "tactics", because he does not yet have a goal established, nor does he fully understand the answers to his questions; his attempts do not yet have a coherence that we can recognize as a broader, full-fledged approach.

I feel he is not seeking answers from us. He seeks his own answers. In fact, he might have a couple of his own answers. He asks whether CM/art music is entertainment, or “something more”. But this is a leading question. “Something more” is immediately rather clearly defined; also, we don’t have the freedom to decide that question, and he clearly tells us that this “something more”, which is a specific thing-more, is his answer.

However, he is aware of the influence of the rasika over his professional life and he does therefore place his questions before us too because he wants us, his audience, to think, so that we each make up our minds one-way or the other for ourselves , rather than give knee-jerk reactions for or against his views as expressed implicitly in his concerts.

He does seem to rebel. His cause is probably his own professional freedom. I find him rather eloquent in spots: His phrase“the trap of a performance” really touched me and I really felt for him.

In our analysis, some of us have quoted his line, “not a service of spiritualism, religion or entertainment” and we have spoken of the music being (or not being) AT the service of spiritualism, religion, entertainment, (Ponbhairavi has added money and fame too). While Ponbhairavi speaks the truth, that music is not at the service of any of these things, TMK’s words there were not about that. He says that as a musician, he does not believe it is his responsibility to provide spiritual or religious or entertainment services to his audience. That is quite a different thing. He’s right. These are personal experiences and the musician simply cannot intentionally create them for rasikas. It comes entirely from the mind of the rasika.

Still, I think TMK is wrong to label his music “Art Music”. Not that his music is not art, it’s just that as Nick and I have said earlier, all music is necessarily art. My impression of his use of the label “Art Music” is that it seems to be a cover or a justification of his rejection of his supposed spiritual role. He seems to want to secularize the music. But no artist can make his work spiritual or secular for others no matter what his experience was in creating it That depends on the heart of the listener/viewer/museum goer. So he’s right anyway, and my opinion is he should drop the label “art music” – he sounds rather immature when he uses it.

Like Vasanthakokilam, I really stop enjoying the article at the point where he presents a mishmash of issues.
What does he mean by the massacre of ragas, I wonder. Each of the issues he raises is large enough for a separate article: ragas and alapana (not “alapa”), neraval, composition. I wonder what he means when he says that compositions presented today are the “equivalent of nursery rhymes” – I mean I might understand to a certain extent, but that would come entirely from me and my opinions, I would love to hear his OWN reasoning and explanation. I don’t think that as a reader, I have to do the thinking for him. It is HIS ideas we are considering, not our own. I am not sure what he means when he says that the compositions mostly only titillate. Since joining Rasikas, I have learned that Javalies and varnams may titillate, but these are such a small part of the concert experience, and I am left wondering what he means.

This discussion came to mind when I read Sri Ramasubramaniam MK’s account of a conversation on a train between GNB, Lalgudi and PMI about balancing audience expectation with the artist’s capacity to satisfy them. I was very much reminded of this phrase: the “trap of a performance”, and my own idea, “the tyranny of expectation.” But in reading, I felt GNB and PMI were wrong. and so was LGJ, though less so. Giving the audience less than their top capacity in order to manage audience expectation is just a ploy, a tactic and as an audience member, I don’t like that. LGJ in that anecdote sounds so true to himself: he will necessarily push himself harder than ever to please the art goddess and the rasika. But the simple answer – I feel – would be to always do the best they can each day and leave the rest to the audience (and God), and when you’ve done your best, irrespective of audience expectation, only good things can happen.

(I very much enjoyed that account, thank you so much for it, Sri MKR!)

[vasanthakokilam]

Excellent analysis, Ranganayaki.

I am on your wavelength all the way. “trap of a performance”, and “the tyranny of expectation.” - Nice phrases to hang a lot of ideas on.

Couple of points.

On the spiritualism/religion issue, what Ray Charles did is something to think about. It is too much of a deviation from this thread, but briefly: The music he created early on in his career with Atlantic Records, which came to be called 'Soul' music, are Gospel tunes set to secular and common-theme lyrics. I am sure some people would have labeled that as scandalous. The popular account of his explanation is: "That is the music I grew up with and that is all I know." You are right that it is the acceptance by the audience that propagated that genre.

On the dichotomy of 'Classicism' vs 'Performing to the gallery', stepping outside of music for a second, in other fields, there is a long held dichotomy between 'Functionality' and 'Ease of use/Simplicity'. If something is not easy to use, the common reason given is that it has a lot of features and it is hard to optimize it for ease of use. The modern belief is that it is an utterly false dichotomy. There is beauty in simplicity and simplicity does not mean it is any less meaningful. But what has been discovered is, it is very very hard to make something simple. Software companies have learned this through experience in the past 30 years as use of technology has moved from experts to the common people.

One explanation for why it is hard is that there are many different ways of doing things in complex ways but there are very few ways of doing things in a simple way. In that sense, the simple way is more organized ( less entropy, if I may ). One has to put in a lot of energy to offer something simple. I see the 'Soaked in Classicism vs Singing to the Gallery' or 'Singing to oneself/small group vs Singing for mass audience' along similar axes and false dichotomies. In fact one aspect of the similarity is striking in both examples: Both involve the target audience shifting from experts to the masses. One possible lesson is singing to the masses in a meaningful way is very very hard and it requires a lot of work to hide the complexity in a simple and easy to consume veneer.

We can see how right LGJ was in that anecdote.

[arasi]

Ranganayaki,
What you say has to be mulled over by performers and all the rest of us and has to be etched in stone for posterity as well:

The simple answer would be to always do the best they (we) can each day (that's professionalism?) and leave the rest to the audience (and God).

[viswanathmysore]

What happened to the Voices Within workshops ?

Any idea of the number of managers who survived the past few crises with lessons gleaned from
http://www.ideasrs.com/vwbizinnovation/ ... kshop.html

Are there any brands in CM - Other than the Monkey Brand Song ?

Allow to TMK write a critical mass and he is sure to contradict himself at every paragraph . As long as THE HINDU keeps going strong .

[kvchellappa]

Mr. TMK is open to debate the points one to one on email. He responds promptly to emails. Would it not be fair to write to him and get his response rather than post it here? Just a suggestion.
He has vidwat and is popular. His music is genuine and pours from his heart. He has taken several authentic initiatives in furtherance of CM. He knows that he is over-reactive, but he is sharp and whatever he does is not for getting attention. He got it without tantrums.

[Ranganayaki]

Vk, thank you for your response.
What a nice story about Ray Charles.. his explanation is so touching in its simplicity, goes directly to the core of his life..

What you say about simplicity brings me to what I love about Lalgudi's music.. Many of his compositions get me hooked the very first time I hear them. Often, in CM, I need to hear a piece a few times before it becomes familiar and I start enjoying it better, or it is a rather mundane composition, in which the raga flow is so obvious, you can sing the tune of the next line even before you hear it - boring. In Lalgudi's compositions, the picture of the raga he delineates is often so complete, and so beautiful, each swara flows into the next in the most comfortable way, yet the compositions are so thrilling and intellectually stimulating and certainly not predictable the first time you hear it. Just exactly what Mozart (so far the only other composer) does too for me. This and what you say both remind me of the movie Amadeus, where Mozart argues with some other musicians about wanting his music to reach and please the masses. That was his genius too, where he creates the most sublime music and anybody can hear the beauty in it. You feel you know the piece the first time you hear it and yet, it is full of delightful surprises and there is nothing mundane about it.

KV Chellappa, this is a forum where we discuss CM, and that's what we are doing. It would certainly be lovely to email TMK, if we choose to, but I don't agree with your words "rather than post it here".

[Nick H]

Not only do I agree with that, but (without knowing him at all) I suggest that TMK would be happy that the discussion is going on.

[VijayR]

Wow, we have gotten some very eloquent opinions here. Ranganayaki, bravo! VK, I couldn't agree more with you regarding post #37. I believe it was Leonardo Da Vinci who said "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." This is so true in almost every field that I can think of... Achieving sophistication (depth of expertise) is a worthy goal in any field, but most people stop there. There is one more level after that, which few people even recognize (let alone aim for) and that is to complete the circle and connect the sophistication back to simplicity.

After starting this thread, I searched a little more for TMK's views on this subject. Here is a recent video interview with TMK, R. K. Shriram Kumar, and Arun Prakash that I very much enjoyed. I think TMK puts forth his views on these subjects much more coherently (and eloquently) here. The Hindu article, as others have pointed out, makes some good points, but soon diverges into a number of directions (one reason why it comes across a bit as pontificating, at least to me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3f737wAKh4

There are some real highlights in there. For example, Arun Prakash says, "Everybody has mass and class within themselves... whatever mass I play for you should sound class for you; whatever class I play should sound mass for you." Beautiful! I would only venture to add that in addition to the above perception, mass and class can (at times) be one and the same.

[rshankar]

"Everybody has mass and class within themselves... whatever mass I play for you should sound class for you; whatever class I play should sound mass for you." Beautiful! I would only venture to add that in addition to the above perception, mass and class can (at times) be one and the same.

OK..let me play Ernie to your Fredrick Algernon Trotteville (Fatty, to the lovers of Enid Blyton's Five Find-Outers)....other than the fact that mass and class rhyme, I don't see the point being made here...

[VijayR]

OK..let me play Ernie to your Fredrick Algernon Trotteville (Fatty, to the lovers of Enid Blyton's Five Find-Outers)....other than the fact that mass and class rhyme, I don't see the point being made here...

Ok, I'll respond. First, +1 for the Five Find-Outers reference.

Second, rhyme or no rhyme, I think it illustrates the point that I was making (or trying to make) in my post about simplicity in presentation. My interpretation of class sounding like mass was just the ability to present sophisticated stuff in a manner that members of the audience can associate with (to various levels, depending on their interest and knowledge). I have heard many a tani-avartanam where there are long intricate patterns played and the vidwat of the artist is in ample display, but I am unable to relate to the stuff being played. Please note that I am not implying that the material should be dumbed down.

The mass sounding like class was a very straightforward interpretation for me... Play the simple stuff without making it sound trivial (e.g., the sarva laghu style of playing mridangam).

[MV]

OK..let me play Ernie to your Fredrick Algernon Trotteville (Fatty, to the lovers of Enid Blyton's Five Find-Outers)....other than the fact that mass and class rhyme, I don't see the point being made here...

Five-Find-Outers... that is a blast from the past. Makes me want to go and hunt for a book to read for old-times sake

Anyway, thats going away from the subject. Some eloquent writing on this thread. I thought I should put in my two cents. I think the Sruti video explains it all (quite a good interview, I thought) TMK said it himself..'you reach a point when you cross the barrier and it is all about the integrity to the Music' To be very objective, if it is an attention-seeking exercise, why pander to it? If it is a journey of self-evolution or whatever, then let him evolve. In either case, the solution is to Leave him be. As rasikas, we have a choice of not going to the concert, if it irks that much. TMK being TMK, however shoots himself in the foot by talking about it Something about leopards not changing their spots..

However, I do feel in every field of human endeavour there will come every so often someone who will question, push boundaries, test the wires and so on. Some of the efforts do become success stories and some suffer the ire and doom. In any case, we do have to let alone, wait and watch as benevolent parents. I, for one, am happy to watch the workings of an exploring mind as long as it is not harmful to anyone.

[Nick H]

I have heard many a tani-avartanam where there are long intricate patterns played and the vidwat of the artist is in ample display, but I am unable to relate to the stuff being played.

This applies to almost all the tanis that I hear! Who, apart from other mridangists and their students, understands Trichy Sankaran, when he decides to really go with the nadai changes? However, many of the rest of us still enjoy the music that he is making --- because, yes, it is maths, but first it is music, and aesthetically pleasing as such. There are mridangists whose tanis I find about as interesting as arithmetic was ins school.

To a Brit, whether mass and class rhyme or not depends very much on whether one is a Northerner or a Southerner (or to which claaass one belongs). Being a Roman Catholic might complicate the issue too.

Probably, for musicians, who necessarily must earn a living as well as adhering to ideals, it is the critical mass that counts!