Evolving a different kutcheri format

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 13 Mar 2012, 15:59

Evolving a different concert format.

In the present concert pattern , the violinist feels bad about lack of freedom, the mridangist feels that his instrument does not get its due,many vocalists like TMK feel that the present format is fossilized, too rigid ,and stale. The upa pakkavadyams have only a cosmetic role. While I was thinking about this overall discomfort, I should have fallen asleep and here is what I dreamt:
I had the vision of a different concert composition.
- Instead of the present system of one main item and one sub main, there can be two mains, and hence 2 thanis spaced out in a suitable manner ( hopefully no 2 exodus)
- Out of these 2 mains,the violinist can choose one for which he does the alapana. The vocalist completes it and begins the kirthana of his choice followed by neraval and swaram.Swaraprasthara will not be a simple duet between the vocalist and the violinist but a tripod ; that is swaram by the singer, swaram by the violinist and third swaram by the mridangist(kerala Navarathri type.). To the vocalist and violinist the upa pakkavadyam plays the tala accompaniment and not the mridangist.. It is followed by the first thani.
- The second main is chosen by the vocalist( either a kirthanai or R T P ). The swara prasthara pattern shall be the same as above( tripod type ) It will be followed by another thani.
_ there can be two ragamalikas in the concert: on chosen by the vocalist ( with sahithyam ). The second ragamalika is begun by the violinist and it alternates with the singer( alapana of various ragams and no sahithyam.)
- With the above in view here is how I visualize a skeleton model of a two and a half hour concert.
- Varnam - 5mts
- song 1 - 5mts
- song 2 - 5mts
- first main(violinist chooses the raga and does the alapana – vocalist continues chooses the kirthana---neraval-swaram(tripod type )- first thani (not exceeding 10 mts) 45 mts.
- Song 3 - 5 mts
- Song 4 - 5 mts
- Second main( Singer’s choice ) can also be a R T P – with neraval, swaram(tripod type ) and thani ( not more than 10 mts) 45 mts
- Thukkada one - 5 mts.
- Ragamalika one ( singer’s choice as in the present system) with a sahithyam…….. 5 mts
- Thukkada 2 - 5mts
- Ragamalika2(violinists begins and alternates with the singer –raga alapana s of ragas only –no sahithyam )…5mts
- Padam javali thiruppugazh or bhajan - 5 mts
- Thillana - 5mts
- Slokam/mangalam - 5 mts
- total 150 mts.
- If the experts consider this is sheer nonsense, pl strike it off and bear with me for this fancy dream;
- If some musicians eager for innovation and liberalization consider that there is some valid point in this nucleus and it can be suitably improved upon, then well and good and this can even be taken as a new thread

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Mar 2012, 01:23

Interesting idea!
Have you tried it at bhairavi?
what is the rasika response?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 14 Mar 2012, 05:39

This is not entirely a dream as TM Krishna has already given his violinist opportunity to lead an alapana and kalpana swaram in some concerts.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 14 Mar 2012, 10:35

Mohan,
I have previously expressed myself in favour of TMK's initiative to give more opportunity to the violinist and also to the mridangist( vocalist taking cue from the korvai). My idea is nothing revolutionary but only just to push the liberalization a little further within the overall Ariakudy format ( one detailed alapanai of a raga at the choice of the violinist and a raga maligai without sahithyam for on the spot improvisation) and more chance to the mridangist( 2 thanis which i believe will avert the exodus because the exodus is more due to the impression of the audience that the concert is going to be over very soon and only very little more is going to come and by skipping the thanis we get some 15 mts more plus the 5 mts of the sabha official's blabbering vote of thanks which with the rest of the concert , comes to a substantial 45 mts!!)
CML,
This new scheme requires some broadmindedness on the part of the vocalist .So the initiative has to come from the artists. I am very keen to learn the reaction of the vocalists and accompanists. Of course Bhairavi is prepared to give this a trial if some artist is willing to do it.As far as the organisation and the audience is concerned they have nothing to lose and everything to gain as the concert gives scope more for on the spot improvisation and also some surprize element to all ( incl the artists.)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Mar 2012, 20:08

Why not start the Katcheri with a spirited Laya Avartham by the mridangist which will dynamize the audience, followed by a varnam (LGJ style) by the violinist and then the vocalist steps in... The Flautist also can step in in place of violinist wherever appropriate. In most of Dance performances these days the melody takes the lead!

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 15 Mar 2012, 09:34

Cml Sir,
"The melody takes the lead"
is it melody or rhythm?
The mods may pl consider whether a new thread can be opened as "evolving a new concert format" and the above posts from no 52 can be transferred there.May be it may elicit more responses.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Mar 2012, 23:16

I simply meant that the Flautist or Violinist give a melodic recital before the dancer appears to perform...

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 17 Mar 2012, 18:22

In all nadaswaram kutcheris( incl temple weddings etc.. ) thavil is invariably the opening batsman.

May I renew my request to have a separate thread from thepost no 52 entitled
"Evolving a different kutcheri format "

rajagopalan

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Mar 2012, 21:34

Without breaking traditions, now let us have other suggestions for different CM Katcheri formats...

Thalaivarda · Post by **Thalaivarda** » 17 Mar 2012, 21:40

Why do we evolve ?

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 17 Mar 2012, 22:10

Why do we evolve ?

. to have rasam before sambar - in the manglore style
. to have masala dosa without sambar in Vidhyarthi Bhavan

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Mar 2012, 00:25

If the Thukkadas/Abhangs/Bhajans are sung at the beginning, will the majority walk out right after that?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Mar 2012, 16:08

No, they'll stay in the canteen until they hear an alapana, give it three minutes to make sure they are not being fooled, and then interrupt it by rushing in!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 18 Mar 2012, 19:07

cmlover - you hit the nail on the head and I believe too that after tukkadas/abhangs/bhajans atleast 1/3rd will leave.

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 18 Mar 2012, 19:41

Why not go the HM way, where the main artiste (vocal, sitar, sarod or whatever) dominates. Only the percussion instrument gets some importance.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Mar 2012, 22:05

Note: I started off this post thinking it will be just a paragraph on Thalaivarda's question but it kept growing. Hope you are not put off by the length. It may sound technical but it is really general cultural stuff.

Thalaivarda wrote:Why do we evolve ?

Interesting question. The flip side of the coin is 'why is there a tradition?'. Investigative techniques and possible answers are the same.

Tradition is about collective memory. Culture is about collective memory.

We all play social games intrinsically. Culture and Tradition are "equilibrium strategies.". It is very important to understand what the words "strategy" and "equilibrium" mean in such games.

Here "strategy" means, when it is our turn to play, what is our move that maximizes our gain/payoff, taking into the consideration what the other party in the game will do. Let us assume that the pleasure or pain of each party is known to both parties but they make the decision simultaneously ( or when you move, you do not know what the other party's move is ) but the pleasure or pain is a result of their combined move. That is, they know the pleasure/pain of the combined move, but they do not know which combination they are going to end up at when they make the move.

In society, how do people know those pleasures and pains of their combined moves? That ahead-of-time knowledge of pleasure and pain is the collective memory of the society which gives rise to traditions and cultures. Each one does not have to relearn all the trial and error game plays of the past. They arrived at those strategies in the past and that gets transmitted to everyone over time, across generations. Traditions and cultures provide stability for the art form just like species provide stability for the life form, in a given environment.

What is an Equilibrium strategy? Equilibrium implies that if we deviate from it, the pay off is most often less. So both sides of the game ( supplier-consumer, artist-audience etc. ) play the same strategies again and again. For example, audience goes to the concert expecting a traditional format concert and the artist provides a traditional format concert. Except for a few rumblings around our forum, everyone is happy. If either party deviates from this strategy by himself, there will be disappointment/pain. That is, if the audience goes to the concert, expecting a new format ( a deviation ), they will be disappointed with the old format ( artist does not deviate ). If the artists delivers a new format ( artist deviates ), the audience will be disappointed ( audience does not deviate ). So there is tremendous disincentive to deviate from their equilibrium strategies. This is the reason traditions and cultures exist and hard to shake. This is true even if the pay offs are higher if both of them deviate together ( the pleasure of a new format of that artists as enjoyed by the audience ). But the society's punishment for one sided deviation is typically higher than the reward when both of them deviate together. In fact, we can say, that is why societies are stable.

This happens even in "one to one" relationships and almost invariably happens in "one to many" relationships like a concert relationship between artist and audience. But, on any given day, the artist does not know the audience as a whole and the audience as a whole does not know the artist. How are they supposed to coordinate their strategies for mutual benefit? That is where the collective memory of the society is extremely useful.

The collective strategies that people are supposed to play are encoded in the traditions and cultural norms and they are reinforced in various ways. Hence Traditions and Culture are sustained due to this collective memory. As we know, there is no universal tradition or culture, there are many traditions and cultures just like there are many species. So there is really nothing divine or superior about this. It is just the way it is when a whole bunch of people interact with each other and the environment. These are all natural consequences. Those among us who know Game Theory are probably chuckling ( and hopefully nodding ) at my attempt at Game Theorizing kutcheri formats. Yes, all the above have been fully modeled and analyzed by Game Theorists with pretty good success. Sometimes we think in terms of Carrots and Sticks, game theory is a formalization of applying that intuitive idea to both parties in the game. It is a fascinating subject to study for everyone.

Why do deviations from these cultural strategies occur in spite of the above? Why do we evolve new traditions? The answer lies in thinking through what happens in 'games' that involve repeated interactions rather than a single shot game.

There are models in game theory about repeated plays. That is, it is not a one shot game but there is a continued future relationship between the two parties ( artist - audience ). It has been shown that to break the tradition and move to a new tradition, the following intuitive condition should be true.

("any gain from breaking the tradition today minus any gain from sticking to the tradition today") is more than ( "any gain from sticking to tradition tomorrow" minus "any punishment for breaking the tradition tomorrow )

This is a powerful equation to ponder. It is so powerful, I would like to term it the Golden Equation. It is intuitively obvious and it has been modeled mathematically for a lot of real life situations.

=========math side bar=======
The following things need to be said about this equation for the mathematically minded.

1) The right hand side of that cultural equation is not just for tomorrow, it is for all tomorrows until the relationship breaks down.
2) There is a probability 'p' of the relationship continuing on to the next day.
3) The right hand side of the above equation has to be converted to the net present value for today since the left hand side of the equation is the cultural gain 'today'. Math wise it is not that difficult, the right hand side is basically an infinite geometric series on 'p'. It is like the discounted present value method used by bankers, here instead of using interest rate, you just use the probability of the relationship continuing as the discounting factor. So the probability of relationship continuing in the future is the weight we apply to the future payoffs.
============================

So what is the real world meaning of the probability of the relationship? It is the probability that you will continue to go to the artists concerts and enjoy the new or the old format. On the artist side, it is the probability that he/she will continue to be in the concert circuit. This is the probability of continuing the game, not the probabilities of what strategy is chosen in the future.

One intuitive way to ponder the Golden Equation is this: The net pay off from deviation today has to be higher than the net payoff of compliance in the future (discounted to the present as mentioned above ). That is a very high bar.

Traditions and cultures are due to this tight lock condition. It takes a while to get into the tight lock state and it remains there for a long time. It is similar to trying to topple over a cabinet. You have to attempt quite a few times, it only topples up to a point but you lose strength and it comes back down. You gather energies and try again, and again and again. While doing this, you are suffering because the pay off equation is not satisfied. So you are not going to get a lot of help from others. Toppling is not an equilibrium strategy. But every try may slightly alter the environment which can go in favor of toppling or against toppling. Or more significantly, something in the environment/payoff changes which makes toppling a bit easier or harder. ( here toppling analogy should not be taken as a metaphor for toppling the current format, but basically to illustrate the difficulty in peeling off a significant chunk of the public to a new format, along side the old format )

If something in the environment changes it will motivate people to experiment a little bit (deviate from equilibrium). A lot of them will fail because it would not satisfy the Golden Equation but a few will satisfy and hence click and a new equilibrium tradition will be born over time.

If you have read this far, here is your bonus pay off.

There is a mathematical model that relates the amount of deviations that are tolerated and the probability of the game continuing in the future.

The following are some fairly intuitive understandings/predictions from that mathematical model.

a) If the probability of future relationship is higher, the deviations are tolerated more. This is why established artists can deviate more and still hold on to their audiences.

b) if the relationship is going to end at a given date, the probability of deviation is higher. Say, an artist is going to stop performing after 10 months and he does not care about legacy etc. the artist can afford to deviate a lot if that gives him immense pleasure. He does not have to care about audience reception.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Mar 2012, 23:47

The game theory formulation is very interesting VK!
Obviously this is not a 'zero sum' game for discussing an optimum solution.
It does answer "why evolve?"
Can we define the 'payoff' further?
For the artiste it is more the tangible (material compensations} and intangible (recognition which too may translate into tangible later.
For the Rasikas it is mostly itangibles (entertainment value) and some tangible (the amount spent).
Now how can be equate and solve these.
For the present the optimum strategy for the artiste appears 'to play it safe" (no deviations from the equilibrium!
Pl continue the discussion (also mathematically) - it is fascinating..
What metric should we use for the intangibles?

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 19 Mar 2012, 08:42

With a risk of repetition:
-----------------------------
I want one change the main has to happen where submain happens and the tani should get over , than a rtp or megarAgamAliga can be sung , the tukkadas can be sung and then as a last number one should sing the submain.

The nagging and frustrating issue is people feel once when tani is over and the tukkada starts the concert is almost taking a lagging phase. So the idea of submain at the end will make sense as there is incentive for all of us to sit.

Starting with mini tani ,violin playing first and then vocal singing etal will be just a fad and will be good once or twice and then you wont like it.

In short Push the submain to the end and bring the main to where the submain is ariyarajesh -->bit not distorted but just bit rearranged ariyakudi suggestion !!!!

There are few outliers like Smt Aruna (singing abhang),and in the historic past (maharajapuram santhanam singing bho sambhO), but they are very few artists who hold rasiksas and make them wait till that last number .

All
There were interesting discussions way back in 2007 in the thread which kind of goes somewhat with this thread (see the posts of me,pb,arunk ,sbala and Vijay and many many more)
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... ake#p62167

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 19 Mar 2012, 08:56

VK,

Why do we evolve ? -
Since the discussion always reduces to the lowest common denominator ( shall I have thayir sadham first !; even in this thread - abhangs first ? ), my response was also terse.

For someone with a Tanjore village ancestery, I think the answer seems simpler. How many today are like their grand parents ?
One should have kudumi, panchakacham, full vibhuthi, otherwise, it is a sin. How many can make murukku from scratch instead of quick stop at adyar grand sweets ?

In my college days, we used to go Maharajapuram Santhanam, MLV concerts @ Venus colony, Alwarpet around 8.30 pm just in time for thukkadas. Nowadays, the artists, do not sing that much thukkadas.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 19 Mar 2012, 15:52

rajeshnat wrote;
violin playing first and then vocal singing etal will be just a fad
would it not give the violinist a little more freedom of choice and a sense of participation instead of being always a "second fiddle "?
the intention behind my proposal is to give a little more freedom and sense of participation to the violinist and mridangist who feel neglected "secondary" in the present set up.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 19 Mar 2012, 16:55

The violinist and mridangist are accompanists and the concert is not a trigalbandi- unless billed so on special occasions.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 19 Mar 2012, 19:09

Take a listen to this Excellent thoppi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3vIbsbsBO8
Good mrindangist or violinist cannot be under shadow of vocal artist, if they can shine like this excellent thoppi

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Mar 2012, 08:29

How about placing the vocalist where an upa-pakka vAdyam player sits?
Make it an 'instrumental concert' with vocal support?
How about turning the stage for the artistes to face the pictures of the Gods and Trinity which they don't normally see?

I am not for any of the above, of course

When we think of changes, are we taking into account how the artistes will deal with these rather confusing configurations and of their role (how important they are in a given concert or, the 'who is the leader?' issue). Not as if I've not been witness to an accompanist acting as if the stage belonged entirely to him

Unless it's an instrumental concert, the vocalist leads and is the leader in a vAip pATTu concert.

I suppose Annamalai and C.Rama have the same idea, if I'm not mistaken.

Which brings me to TMK's experiments. I feel that some of them are like merely altering the structure of a home, thinking that it would somehow improve the quality of the life being lived there. Do I make any sense here?

Now, coming back to what Rajesh says, it's worth a try, changing the order of the sub-main--as if in a concert, the performer honored a
rasikA's request to sing a solid piece at the end of a concert (and he/she had the energy to oblige) and it was very pleasing. I'm willing to hear such a concert because at times, at the end of a very good concert when I start hearing a string of tukkaDAs, I feel, 'well, this is it! Wish I could hear a bit more of this music'...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Mar 2012, 19:26

Unless it's an instrumental concert, the vocalist leads and is the leader in a vAip pATTu concert.

How about a "vAi pATTi" concert

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Mar 2012, 21:19

arasi wrote: Which brings me to TMK's experiments. I feel that some of them are like merely altering the structure of a home, thinking that it would somehow improve the quality of the life being lived there. Do I make any sense here?

Arasi, I like the analogy and for me it works in a slightly different way.

Since we are talking about kutcheri formats, formats are about structure by definition and so all of that can indeed be thought of as altering the structure of the home. That analogy holds. Changing the structure of the home can improve the quality of life being lived there. 'Quality of life' is a subjective thing of course but it can also include increasing the scope of activities. For example, if it is too cramped and not much of a breathing room, it limits the scope and freedom of movement. The key word is 'merely' in the above quoted sentence. Change of structure is possibly a necessary condition but definitely not a sufficient condition for any improvement in quality of living. It is up to those living there to get comfortable in the new structure and see if it is any better. Sometimes even moving the couch to a perpendicular wall brings about a level of freshness.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Mar 2012, 22:02

Some people like to shift the furniture every week or two. Some of us prefer, unless we need to fit in something new, to put stuff where it fits and stick with it.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 20 Mar 2012, 22:09

arasi wrote: Now, coming back to what Rajesh says, it's worth a try, changing the order of the sub-main--as if in a concert, the performer honored a rasikA's request to sing a solid piece at the end of a concert (and he/she had the energy to oblige) and it was very pleasing. I'm willing to hear such a concert because at times, at the end of a very good concert when I start hearing a string of tukkaDAs, I feel, 'well, this is it! Wish I could hear a bit more of this music'...

Arasi the energy is always there it is just pushed swapped. I am happy vageyakkara smt rajee is some what OK,but vidushis and vidwans have to take it . Till then inRu varuvAnO nAlaiyO

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Mar 2012, 22:51

With plenty of die-hards among them
inRum varamATTAn nALaiyum!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Mar 2012, 01:56

Nick H wrote:Some people like to shift the furniture every week or two. Some of us prefer, unless we need to fit in something new, to put stuff where it fits and stick with it.

I see that. Not that we shift things around but the change is indeed nice to have once in a while if it is functionality same or better than the previous configuration. How about something on a smaller scale - Wall decorations of different kinds. That changes the ambiance of the room, sometimes for the better.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Mar 2012, 02:35

VK,
I meant 'quality' in a different sense, I suppose. Not quality of living conditions such as in more circulating space and so on, but the very way of life in a home. In a concert, I mean the very quality of the music. A food example makes it clear most of the time with us foodies.Let's go back to Annamalai's order of serving sAmbAr and rasam differently. My question is (his too?)--does it improve the quality of the food which is presented?

Let's agree that the concert format is not a natural thing, but just came to be, keeping in step with changing times.

I go back to architecture in homes. Take Bengaluru for instance. Over the years, some architects have come up with plans for practical living with a feel of flow, even in very limited space. On the other hand, there are many architectural features in other dwellings which don't serve any purpose except to say, I'm something differen, something new.
Let's say the house stands for structure, but a home stands for the values that one finds in the way the people live in it.
In a concert, does mere shuffling of the order bring about better quality in the music presented? I don't know.

Rajesh,
With house concerts gaining some attention, it's worth trying your suggestion in them. If it proves agreeable, it may reach the concert halls.

I'm all for innovation, but I'm perhaps a fussy customer.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Mar 2012, 03:22

Arasi, your 'house' vs 'home' analogy works for me well and I understand what you are saying. ( the food analogy is too Least Common Denominator for my taste

)

In TMK's case, let us consider two things that are in the grey area.

1) Singing varnam in the middle in an elaborate fashion. It has the 'house' characteristic in the sense it is just simple change of order. It also has a 'home' characteristic that he can dwell on it longer in an expansive fashion.

2) Just singing an alapana and thanam without a composition. It is like going through a hallway expecting a room that used to be there but now find it completely walled off. That is a tough one to come to terms with. Some one can say, when I lived here 50 years back there was no room and so to me it looks natural, no big deal.

But beyond all this, since home is more important than house, it also implies one can make a home anywhere (with in reasonable limits ). This means everyone should give less importance to structure, it can mean two additional things. For artists, do not mess with trivial things like format etc and focus on the music part. For the audience we should not care if the structure is different since what is being messed around is less significant stuff anyway.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 21 Mar 2012, 03:31

How about finding sruti while microwave is running or finding rythm while train is running - so do not use any normally used pakkavadyam or sruti. Will that fit in the format change?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Mar 2012, 03:42

me too VKR. My microwave also provides a periodic little thump so I have both sruthi and metronome there. I do enjoy trying to sync up to its sruthi once in a while

But I am not sure if it is concert class

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 21 Mar 2012, 11:02

arasi wrote: In a concert, does mere shuffling of the order bring about better quality in the music presented? I don't know.

That is not a fair comment. It is not merely shuffling the order, like a parrot picking a tarot card and the musician shall sing that krithi from the card.

It is unusual granted, but I do not see what is the issue in singing Bhairavi in detail and singing Viriboni (a monumental composition) with neraval, swaras.
I do feel short changed if after a detailed alapana of Bhairavi some listless composition is rendered (instead of a big krithi like Bala Gopala, Upacharamulanu, Amba Kamakshi, ...)If Sowrashtram or Surati should not be sung at the start of a concert - then musicians should not sing - Sree Ganapathynee Sevimpa or Enthoprema (Suratti) or Saraguna nella (Madhyamavathi).

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 21 Mar 2012, 12:57

Discussions of house architecture, structural changes, making homes out of houses, make me think about vaasthu which was not there some 60 years back but which is very popular with a very large number of people now.
But in any case , I have not proposed any change in the traditional structure of the concert(“Ariakudy format “)
I am very sorry if my proposal has given the impression that it is as drastic as making the vocalist sit in the place of the upa pakavadyam Let me clarify: I have only proposed
-a little more freedom to the violinist(iniative of one raga alapana out of say about 15 raagas in the whole concert) and one raga malika alternating it with the vocalist( instead of simply repeating the raga he sang.)
-a little freedom to the mridangist(two thanis out of which one in the first half of the concert, the duration of which is to imposed by the vocalist) and some swara playing as in the kerala navarathri mandapam type.
The vocalist remains the supreme master of the stage and I have not deprived him of any of his prerogatives.( even for the one raga initiated by the violinist , he choses the krithi)
The vocalist is ultimately the decider.Mine is only essentially an appeal to him to try even partly some of theses, if he is convinced, if he is liberal and if he feels that his set of accompanists would cooperate constructively
It is a fact that the violinist and mridangist feel a bit “neglected “ nowadays. There can be no second opinion that the overall effect of a concert would be enhanced if there is willing and positive participation of all the accompanists. My objective is only directed towards that.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 21 Mar 2012, 13:55

Todays' trendy music presentations give lot of opportunities for innovations and 'misplacement/de-ordering'(?) of compositions.

One such trendy concert I attended a couple of years ago started off with a percussion intro followed by a Tygaraja kriti in violin. The main item was a 'maja bandi' where there was no theme - a vocalist and instrumentalists literally jammed with a hindola based tune and capped it up with the typical Tani which had an array of percussions east and west of deafening decibels. If Konnakol comes under percussion, then it was also there!!

Those who don't appreciate the paddhati (yes, the format established by Ariyakudi) may attend such modern ensembles and avoid insisting on innovations in the kutcheri format. I agree with the observation of many that 'pakkavadyakars' should know their boundaries. Let them not fall for the apparent freedom given by the lead artist.

(I suggest forumites to read my freelance 'designer concerts' under blog in www.sruti.com)

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 21 Mar 2012, 15:21

Sivaramakrishnan- Sabash! Bale!!!

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 21 Mar 2012, 15:34

REg singing varnam as the main piece- Viriboni cannot displace Balagopala or Amba Kamakshi. The charnam line chirunavvu cannot replace Neela neerada sareera or Syamakrishna sahodari sivasankari.Taking up the neraval for the charanam bit of a varnam and explaining its hiddeen treasures are for arguement sake or to show that I am different. Kalpana swaras are already sung for the charanam in varnams. Why it should be taken as the main piece?

kalyani_ragam · Post by **kalyani_ragam** » 21 Mar 2012, 17:51

This is the attitude that is required amongst the musicians for a concert to be successful (than innovation for the sake of seeking attention)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHEFvXUs ... re=related

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Mar 2012, 19:59

Viriboni cannot displace Balagopala or Amba Kamakshi.

CRama, I would not question even for a second your personal preferences but if you intended to make it a general statement, we have something to talk about. Amba Kamakshi melody derives a lot from Viriboni and other than the niraval line issue you bring out, Viriboni has a whole lot of scope to offer and is in no way less capable as a main piece compared to Amba Kamakshi. I can see why you would say that if your focus is on the lyrics and the bhavam created by the lyrics. I am with you on that ( this is not to put down sahiyabhava ) but that does not have to be necessarily the focus on every one of the thousand concerts we hear. Once in a while, we can have a variation on the theme where the focus is primarily on the melody and rhythm which is what Viriboni offers in abundance.

ganeshkant · Post by **ganeshkant** » 22 Mar 2012, 11:19

Is it o.k if an artist after rendering an item renders the same after a gap in the same concert because they suddenly got some novel idea.What prompted me to write this is the way mAli played 'viribhONi' 3 times in the same kutcheri each time some thing different.Since this thread deals with possibilities of diff.formats than the conventional I am just posting this.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 22 Mar 2012, 11:39

Dear VK, If once in a while somebody sings viriboni as the main piece or if only TMK tries this format I do not have any issue. But the discussion about suggesting an alternate format which is expected to replace the present format. Hence I voiced my opinion as in the above thread. I have decided to take a break from TMK's concerts for some time. My principle is if I do not like any artiste, pattern, I simply do not attend. I know that I cannot influence any artiste or change the music world. I will continue to hear what I like.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 22 Mar 2012, 13:06

I agree with VK. sir. apart from the kirthanai, ragas have a distinct charm, a flavour, a "bhava" of their own which we relish in an alapana swaram varnam or instrumental music where the sahithyam is unknown to us.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Mar 2012, 20:46

"Letting a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought contend is the policy for promoting progress in the arts and the sciences and a flourishing socialist culture in our land."

- Chairman Mao1957

..so let the innovations continue; if it promotes CM better they are all the more welcome..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Mar 2012, 21:47

CRama, Understood. Thanks.

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 22 Mar 2012, 22:36

To borrow the language from Car Talk show from NPR - we wasted another thread on a familiar bashing theme

so that even if there are any substantive ideas, those will be squelched by the Ariyakudi police.

CRama wrote: But the discussion about suggesting an alternate format which is expected to replace the present format.

CRama, I do not think anyone is saying that Varnam must be sung as the main piece; however, I am not up in arms about this practice as some others do. The one point I agree with you - I do not attend the concerts of artists, I do not enjoy listening to (do not wish to mention names).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Mar 2012, 07:49

cmlover wrote:The game theory formulation is very interesting VK!
Can we define the 'payoff' further?
Pl continue the discussion (also mathematically) - it is fascinating..
What metric should we use for the intangibles?

CML, We will have to pick this game theoretic investigation up at a different time in a different thread. It can get a bit too theoretical. Several interesting possibilities exists in terms of picking the right games that model the situation closely, the pay offs and even deciding who the players are. In one model, the players can be artists and audience but in another model the artists are the players and the audience is the payoff. For example, in modeling aggressive/passive behavior in natural ecosystems, the players are really different types of the same species and the payoff is that day's meal (and the cost is losing a limb in a fight).

I wrote about this in game theoretic terms since it is a good model to use for this kind of inter-locked dependency. Many societal aspects like "traditions" and "cultures" also exhibit similar characteristics. Looking at it from the artist side or audience side alone (without considering the feedback effect on the other side ) will be incomplete.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Mar 2012, 17:34

'is this game over?' i asked myself reading this thread under active topics. Perhaps it is still active, so here goes:
(I am enjoying listening to a very good recitation of 'Mahishasuramardini' stotra by Bombay Sisters as I type this).
Instead of pursuing the dream of wholescale change in the concert format, i would propose we make just two changes: Tani after the first main. Second main chosen (by prior disc. with vocalist) by the violinist, who leads the raga alapana and swaras.
What say the sages, please?

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 29 Mar 2012, 20:44

Folks: before I venture my opinion before being tarred and feathered by the anti-Ariyakudi police let me introduce some levity into a serious,purposeful discussion:

There was some reference in one of the posts about how the Microwave and running train can blend with sruthi.

My preference and a practice honed over the years:
1. My vacuum cleaner gives me the perfect pitch for a GNB Shanmughapriya--my washing Machine drone gives me the inspiration for a Semmangudi Sankarabharanam. My clothes dryer suits a MDR Darbar and my wife's hair dryer a good MLV Kalyani(upper octaves).
So you can see notwithstanding my spouse's grief over my not doing household chores,I do most of the chores blending with music--perhaps I am not paying music the attention it deserves or from her perspective I am not paying the chore the attention it requires!!!!

Seriously though although I like the structure in a concert--- honed over the years-- I have adjusted to taking the structure offered by the artist so long as whatever and however is rendered is done in a manner which stokes my imagination and reveals new vistas in the krithi or alapana that the conventional "hide-bound" structure has not revealed hitherto.

Change for change's sake does not appeal to me.Ofcourse everything revolves around how these new conventions or structures are followed by musicians and appreciated and applauded by Rasikas--there will be some diehards sticking to conventions and there will be rasikas wanting variety and change. So this debate is never going to be resolved any time soon.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 29 Mar 2012, 21:06

1. If we want to attend a vocal concert, the other three will have to be accompaniments.
2. If violinist is unhappy, he can play solo. people who are interested can and will attend.
3. Can anyone stand a 3 hour talavadya kacheri with 2 or 3 instruments. No one is interested.
4. Giving thani twice is not uncommon. I have heard Sri NSG doing it regularly. If memory serves right, I have seen Sri.KVN also do the same. Main thani after the Main and a brief thani after RTP.
5. Artists are already shuffling around songs. No one is following Ariyakudi 100% There will be slow change.

Why this kolaveri about "DIFFERENT FORMAT" There are already many formats and more will evolve and emerge.