Comments on Helpfulness of Blog

[kartb82]

Dear Rasikas,

I'm running a blog for new rasikas as well as foreigners to help them understand Carnatic music. I would tremendously appreciate the kind input of the experts in this forum to help me better my blog. Thank you and hope you have a nice time reading the posts while you are there!

http://carnaticmusicdemystified.blogspot.com/

Best regards,
Karthik

[Nick H]

Carnatic musicians use a metronome when singing. This metronome is not an electronic one or one provided by a conductor standing on a platform. The metronome is nothing but the musician hit their hand on their thigh.

Because nobody ever told them it sounds bad ! And nobody ever told them that serious musicians, world wide, get taught that they must internalise the rhythm. A classical student once told me that he wasn't permitted so much as a tap of the toe!

But, most of the world's musicians are not at liberty to make up complex rhythmic cycles on the spot, not previously known to their accompanists, who must learn and play a brand new composition as they are performing it, and then, if the soloist does not put talam, he will be mighty unpopular!

You could say... it is just the same as a conductor conducting a band or an orchestra: it's just that the way of showing the beats is different.

Thanks for your blog: keep it up

[VK RAMAN]

musicians, world wide, get taught that they must internalise the rhythm - this brings home that talam (metronome) can be expressive or implied.

[kartb82]

Exactly, Nick! Thanks for your comments - indeed talam is a special part of Carnatic music which is completely necessary when rendering complicated rhythmic constructs. I'm trying to keep the blog as simple as possible so that even a child can understand it. Youngsters should be able to enjoy Carnatic music just the same as all of us!

[Lakshman]

I see nothing wrong in the musician keeping the tALA as long as they don't slap the thigh hard and produce sounds like thunderclaps which are annoying.
HIndustani musicians don't keep the tALA. They leave it to the tabachi to maintain the rhythm.

[Sam Swaminathan]

I am an amateur musician violinist who cannot play with out looking at the talam. While with out the talam I can maintain the tempo that I start the song with, but when it comes to playing kalpana swaras, I need to look at the talam so that I can get the eduppu in the right place, particularly when it is half matra or three quarters matra. I think that in carnatic music, talam takes a special significance particularly for the eduppu. I would request the views of rasikas on this.

[Nick H]

I see nothing wrong in the musician keeping the tALA as long as they don't slap the thigh hard and produce sounds like thunderclaps which are annoying.

Absolutely agree, Lakshman. It is an unwanted, unmusical noise ... but nothing wrong with keeping the talam at all. It can be very helpful for those of us of lesser layam, when we want to know what is going on.

I need to look at the talam so that I can get the eduppu in the right place, particularly when it is half matra or three quarters matra. I think that in carnatic music, talam takes a special significance particularly for the eduppu. I would request the views of rasikas on this.

Sam, in my very limited understanding, I think one can find even pop songs where the eduppu is shifted, but, somehow, carnatic music seems to make it more difficult --- especially for percussionists, who have to take their compositions and either play like a sliding scale against the talam, and/or recalculate as they go: one of the reasons my mridangam studies hit a brick wall.

To musicians, talam is a friend: to non musicians, it can be a challenge. If you play a korvai pattern in kalpana swara, you feel support from the talam, because you have the knack of following it and being able to play offbeat. Syncopation is ...not easy!

kartb82, something I would seriously suggest for inclusion in your blog for beginners is the advice that, first and foremost, music of any kind is to be enjoyed and felt, and that understanding is not necessary. Many are put off by the serious, intellectual aura, and they need not be. One comes to love the music first.

[mahavishnu]

Kartb82: nice blog. Could you please tell us a bit more about how you got this idea for the blog and what you mean to communicate through this? Any information you could share about your background will also be helpful to understand where you are coming from.

The "putting" talam post was very interesting.

A few observations adding to what Nick, Lji and Sam have already said here.

To me the talam keeping by the artiste achieves a few key things.

1. It indicates what talam it is and what the kalapramANam (tempo) is going to be. While this may sound trivial, in the case of complex pallavis or a less common tala like misra jhampa or khanta ata, without the aid of the performer keeping visible talam, most of us will not get the rhythmic structure of the composition. And if it is a really complex beat pattern like simhanandana talam, you can forget about any structure without the talam keeping.

2. Most carnatic compositions have very strong vallinam/mellinam and vowel/consonant pairings that are essential to the structure of the piece. Without the right accenting on the hard and soft beats, much of this would go unnoticed. Also, during neraval singing this delination becomes even more important. Even simple talams like DesAdi set such a solid template for how the composition is to be sung. And of course, like others have mentioned here, issues like eduppu and complexity that spills over from one avartana to another make things quite difficult. Visible talam keeping allows to keep all of these issues in check.

3. Other forms of music are either not composition heavy or rhythmically complex enough (eduppus) or improvisational enough to warrant talam keeping. On the odd occasion, HM musicians do keep talam, but it a strange kind of drutam/hand waving gesture that they use. I seldom feel the need to keep talam in a hindustani concert, perhaps due to the simpler teental pieces that people often engage in.

4. It is worth noting that instrumental musicians do not keep talam on their hand. Though vainikas have rhythm strings, violinists and flautists do this with considerable ease. I have been told that Lalgudi sir (and perhaps others too) can keep four different talams going in four different limbs without interference. How amazing is that!

5. The unique thing about CM is that it is probably the only art form where the audience "puts" talam conspicuously. Perhaps this is a cultural thing since the audience is more involved in the nuances of the music than in most other musical forms. That said, loud talam "putting" is still tolerable within limits, except when people do it all wrong. There is nothing more annoying in a concert than a person sitting right next you clapping away on themselves like it is flamenco.

6. On a more technical note, talam keeping is less like a metronome in the sense that it is variable. A metronome works with clock-like precision but talam keeping is susceptible to variation in human sensorimotor timing. People vary the kalapramanam during a composition (some more than others), but the overall rhythmic structure remains the same. Talam keeping does not protect one from "Ottam" (speeding up/slowing down), but a metronome does. In that sense it is more like a conductor than a clock, as Nick observed earlier.

P.S: A few contemporary vocalists NSG, Vijay Siva and Bombay Jayashri do not engage in very conspicuous talam "putting".

[srikant1987]

While with out the talam I can maintain the tempo that I start the song with, but when it comes to playing kalpana swaras, I need to look at the talam so that I can get the eduppu in the right place,

I do get quite some OTTam, but otherwise I can play songs OK. And with aTatALa varNams, if I'm singing putting the tALa, I may put the tALa wrong but sing correctly! :$

particularly when it is half matra or three quarters matra.

I face a different difficulty: I have trouble with the integer part. In general I find mishracApu and rUpaka (to some extent khaNDacApu) easier. In Adi tALa, I will likely take off on the right place within the four quarters (or three thirds), but on a different beat.

[varsha]

Comments on the helpfulness of Blog :

1. Have a clear idea of the goal and a rough time frame and what you want to set about doing .For instance , demystifying cm can never be achieved . Whenever this term was used by masters like TRS or SRJ , it has always been toungue-in-cheek . CM IS COMPLEX and takes decades of listening to achieve a significant level of ability to appreciate.
2.Start from the core and move to the fringe . The discussions on metronome and comments flowing in are sufficient proof .CM is an unbelievable amalgam of lyrical complexity , beauty , mythology , and a very demanding mode of expression . Starting with a krithi like nada tanumanisam and leaving the reader in a state of awe with just one song ( and your comments ofcourse ) is the kind of start I am talking about .
3. Allow for a wide variety of listeners taste by not being too rigid about the points of discussion . The subject of Keeping Tala by a wave of hand or mild slapping , or even loud slapping is never distractive , unless it is out of beat .
Internalising the rythm is a concept that will appear in the final instalments of such an exercise .Not the early ones .
4. Always give enough directions for readers to search and explore further - by way of blog links .
5.Take care in choosing the youtube links . The first one you have showcased is a bad case of sruthi adherence . CM is like juggling many things at the same time . Part of the answer to the tragedy of Sruthi in CM , Is that it is sacrificed at the altar of speed and rythmic chicanery

my 4 cents in all sincerity.

[rajeshnat]

Great points varsha.

Karthik(adding my 5th and 6th cent of sincerity),
1. Like rajan pannicker blog , if possible contextualize with clips rather than putting the whole song . I know it is difficult but it is worth if you want to make a point .

2. Try preferably putting clips of very established janaranjaka musicians like maharajapuram santhanam , ms ammA etc, that would certainly have more acceptance.

3. Try perhaps writing in a more informal style as though you are discovering along with the reader . I personally find many of my family members and friends always think CM is very serious music . To an extent that is true , but as a rasika one can always enjoy without being too serious , despite the musician being very serious in singing the same(the vidwans and vidushis have no choice, rasikas have a choice not to take it seriously :tmi: :tmi: ).

4. If possible give few examples of very good film songs in those ragas something as well known . For example there is nothing wrong in writing some thing like illayaraja and vairamuthu combined along with SPB to sing this masterpiece ponmalai pozhudu and then putting a clip of say rAma nee pai in kedaram will do wonders for the readers as they can relate from known to unknown, and start getting hooked thru kEdAram. O god I almost gave an example as though I am writing, sorry about that

Good luck .

p.s You should add the name of the singer in the first blog where she sings vAthApi.

[Nick H]

Something of what is useful to me, as a guinea-pig reader, who despite some fairly intensive exposure to carnatic music over the past couple of decades is still very much a beginner...

1. Keep it simple, but do not assume that your reader is stupid. Your reader may have exposure to the music theory or may not, but either way, they should be able to read and find useful. Do not do what we, in discussion, have done, which is to jump in the deep end. eg... Talam is keeping the beat, just like a western conductor does. Obviously, rights, wrongs, tastes, styles have nothing to do with informing the newcomer (although a little peppering of advice on how not to annoy their concert neighbour might creep in ). At Chapter one, the reader has not heard of such things as eduppu and does not know what neraval or kalpana swara is and does not even know what RTP stands for. Try to build, stage by stage, as you progress, so that laya concepts are explained as you you come to them within the general musical context. This is what the theory books do not do. You get a chapter on laya/talam. Ten things to know about. Memorised that? Right: that's it! That makes understanding very hard.

2. Keep true to the theory --- but acknowledge the practicality. Talam is physically expressed by different kriyas, and none of them are defined as "bringing the palm of the right hand down on the thigh of the right leg." That is nowhere in the theory books --- but it must be acknowledged as the common practice.

3. Don't evangelise. To all of us here, even those with wide and varied musical horizons, carnatic music is something very special in our lives. It is not only something that I love very much, but also something baffling and astonishing in its execution. But so is a symphony, and so is a piece of African drumming. We can only realise the gems and intricacies of music, as told by Varsha, who, like so many here, has been listening and learning for a lifetime, as we go along. We cannot see that something is beautiful because we are told it is, but when we see that it is then it can be wonderful to start understanding why.

I am not an expert in music ---- but I am a bit of an expert in this trying-to-understand business. The only reason I tend to focus on laya is that my main attempt to understand was going to mridangam class.

[kartb82]

Thanks for all your valuable advice! I will surely keep it in mind as I develop this blog over the coming months. I hope that as I incorporate your suggestions over time, this blog will become both useful and entertaining to those who wish to learn a little about Carnatic music!

If you're interested, I've just posted a small piece: Why Do Carnatic Musicians Use A Shruti?

http://carnaticmusicdemystified.blogspot.com/
Karthik

[vasanthakokilam]

Sam wrote:I need to look at the talam so that I can get the eduppu in the right place, particularly when it is half matra or three quarters matra. I think that in carnatic music, talam takes a special significance particularly for the eduppu. I would request the views of rasikas on this.

Nick wrote: Sam, in my very limited understanding, I think one can find even pop songs where the eduppu is shifted, but, somehow, carnatic music seems to make it more difficult

The CM notion of eduppu can indeed be simplified while at the same time made more complete and consistent with practice, musical aesthetics wise.

The usual definitions of three eduppus are: anAgata eduppu (when a song starts after the thala starts), aTita eduppu (when a song starts before the thala cycle) and sama eduppu ( song starts with the thala cycle ).

There is nothing wrong theoretically with the above definitions of the three types and it has a charming symmetry to it but it always seemed to me a bit artificial, more syntax than semantics and robbed off the real musical significance. This is because, eduppu's musical significance is not in the fact that it is so many sub-beats befpre or after a certain beat but it is in the musically significant fact that the inherent first emphasis in the song comes after the beginning of the song. For a novice rasika, that is all they need to know, if at all any, to appreciate the aesthetics of non-sama eduppu songs. In addition, as Nick writes above, one can invoke the numerous film songs as a reference which have this non-samam aesthetics. BTW, in this way of introducing eduppus, the tala does not figure at all.

The next level of CM geek-dom is to relate eduppu to the thala. That brings in a few more concepts and a bunch of terminology baggage without adding a lot of value to a lay rasika, while those are definitely significant for performers. But I believe that even beginning students can grasp them better if they base their thinking and practice on two musically significant aspects.

1. Think of eduppu of a song as starting 'so many sub-beats before a tala beat'. Take out the unnecessary concept of 'after' the tala beat without losing any musical significance.
2. Expand the concept of eduppu beyond the beginning phrase of the song to any musical phrases of the song. And expand it from 'beginning of the tala cycle' to 'any beat of the thala'.

The traditionally defined three types of eduupus can be cast in terms of just item 1 above. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader!!

Item 2 provides coverage for a general notion of aesthetics that we see in numerous compositions. There are many compositions where we see non-samam musical prayogas in various parts of the tala cycle ( this is true even if the song happens to start on samam). But those are not talked about much. Probably because they do not normally figure in any calculations to get to the right place for the start of the pallavi refrains. But those in the middle non-samam prayogas are the ones that give the unique personality and gait to the various compositions we love. So I would say it makes more sense to point to a lay rasika those kinds of aesthetics of compositions. There are umpteen examples of what I am referring to in item 2 since it is fairly common. A case in point: LIsten to Thiruvadi Charanam ( Kambhoji ), pay attention to the 'dEvAdhi dEvA' snippet of the pallavi line. The emphasis is on 'vA' and not dE, so that portion of it is a non-sama usage but with respect to a beat further into the tala cycle, if I may. But it is no less musically significant that the traditional eduppu which unduly focuses on the beginning of the tala cycle.

Mridangists among us can elaborate on this aspect. If I understand correctly, one ( among many ) aspect of 'playing to the song' aesthetic is in thinking of samam/non-samam with respect to all the beats of the tala cycle, not just the first beat, and playing sensitively to that aspect of the compositional structure.