A living legend... and his music now - TMK on Vidvan Sanjay

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 09 Oct 2012, 22:24

A living legend... and his music now - TMK on Vidvan Sanjay Subrahmanyan

view at his site...at...

http://www.tmkrishna.com/

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Oct 2012, 23:20

Very interesting assessment of Sanjay's music by T.M. Krishna including some immense praise and some critique. I understood some of what he is talking about but not all.

We do not quite see this kind of level-headed, mature and open analysis among top professional musicians about the music of the other. This seems to be the case no matter what the genre is. It is a good and mature development for CM.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 Oct 2012, 23:24

Very nice to read TMK about Sanjay.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Oct 2012, 00:42

I am amazed by the amount of praises a saha-musician can heap on another! Didn't happen in the old days (barring one or two instances). I don't think it happens today, either!
It's very generous of TMK to openly admire Sanjay. His awe for Sanjay shows in his devoting a couple of pages in his blog for that purpose. Sanjay's instinct and intellect, his hard work and inspired imagination which tries to mine every lode in a rAgA is well brought out by TMK, himself a top notch artiste. He also speaks highly of Sanjay's voice which some see as having nothing but limitations. It takes an artiste to know another, no doubt.

VK,
I wondered too, towards the end of the piece, if I understood all of what he was saying.
All the same, I was very happy to read TMK (no mean vidwan himself), complimenting another with such generosity.

Legends are from the past. Living legends that we have among us (Srikantan for example) are about double the age of Sanjay. Sanjay is not ready yet to be called a legend. He has a long way to go, to prove his mettle as one of the most distinguished musicians of our times.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 10 Oct 2012, 04:17

TMK has spoken of his admiration of Sanjay on a number of occasions. In one interview, when asked who his favourite contemporary musician was, he said Sanjay without blinking an eyelid.

The most important take-away for me was referring to Sanjay's music as being more than the primary qualities of his "voice". However, I wish he had included more details on what he meant by the interesting take of Kambhoji. Many of us at this forum would have found these details very useful.

Arasi, Yes and this also shows how secure TMK feels about his own standing on the Carnatic firmament. You are absolutely right that many musicians from the earlier generations were quite frugal about praising their contemporaries.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 10 Oct 2012, 08:19

Nice article. I personally also feel he could have given more details about kAmbOdhi of why he liked it so much especially with lines like kAmbOdhi inside KAmbOdhi . In the second half I wish TMK also pointed about shruthi adherence vs non adherence in sanjay's music. Good one.

classicallover · Post by **classicallover** » 10 Oct 2012, 12:13

Sanjay is definitely a very hard working musician and his body language during his concerts is ample evidence for this. He struggles to work his limited scratchy voice to spell out whatever he imagines and he succeeds by and large. He is a definite candidate for Sangeeta Kalanidhi much ahead of his peers like TMK, Vijay Siva, etc..

It is not correct to say that the musicians of yesteryears did not praise their contemporaries. They were much more passionate admirers of their peers and always lost no opportunity to laud them or encourage them.

MMI was famous for his goading utterances like " aah " , " bhale " , etc.. GNB & MMI publicly acknowledge the playing of violin by Tiruvaalangadu Sundaresa Iyer, Rajamanickam Pillai, Chowdiah, etc. as well as mridangam by PMI, Raghu, PSP, etc.. MMI used to say " Sundareshanna, innum konjam vaashikkappaDaadaa ? ".

Chembai & Maharajapuram Vishwanatha Iyer had great regard for each other while GNB was said to be the prince among musicians by Musiri.

Moreover it is common knowledge that the communication media was not as developed then as it is now.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Oct 2012, 18:24

About the old timers: Yes, and that's why I said there were a few exceptions. Certainly, MMI and Chembai did not have a mean bone in their bodies and were generosity personified.
There were a few others too. Those who criticize today's artistes for being materialistic, haven't seen some of the old timers who made sure they got every penny a patron or a sabha could yield.
It was an age when compliments were not freely given. The disciples nowadays enjoy an elevated state of being when compared to their humble predecessors!
In these overly photographed, videoed and publicized times and instantly flashed on the internet times, people seem to be effusive in their praises of others. A felicitation event is a good example for this.Words do not carry as much weight as they used to--in the sense that when others voice their appreciation no end, even a low key person often finds himself keeping in line with them!
It is just the way things are now. I suppose it is reflective of the mega this, super that kind of expression we find around us everywhere.
So, it's after all not so very amazing after all, I realize, that an artiste acclaims his peer with such lofty words. The critical words follow as well, which again is a mark of the times we live in. "Let it all hang out' is part of common expression, and the readers interpret it all freely, from their own points of view!

TMK is capable of coming up with many surprises, both in his music and in his utterings. Krishna uvAcha...No wonder, here at Rasikas.org, he generates a lot of responses of different kinds

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 10 Oct 2012, 19:25

rajeshnat wrote:Nice article. I personally also feel he could have given more details about kAmbOdhi of why he liked it so much especially with lines like kAmbOdhi inside KAmbOdhi . In the second half I wish TMK also pointed about shruthi adherence vs non adherence in sanjay's music. Good one.

This was the concert of Sanjay which was reviewed by our grsastrigal in the link below.
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7959
Read Vijay's comments in post 19.

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 10 Oct 2012, 20:04

venkatakailasam wrote:A living legend... and his music now - TMK on Vidvan Sanjay Subrahmanyan

view at his site...at...

http://www.tmkrishna.com/

I found this to be a very thoughtful article. We do TMK a great disservice if we merely analyze this at the level of one leading musician praising another, this article goes much beyond that. There are sentences here that I could write paragraphs about and still not capture the depth effectively. In this sense TMK is very GNBesque in his penetrative intellectual analysis. Just as an example, he asks the weighty question "is a raga simply reducible to a scale"? Note that TMK is not saying there are no scalar ragas but pointing out that in his quest to explore new ragas from HM, Sanjay S has simplified and thereby reduced the raga somewhat, TMK is not saying that Sanjay should not sing Patdeep, only that he just try and integrate the whole of Patdeep in his presentation not just its scale. There are many such insightful comments in here that need to be discussed but my limited time prevents me from diving in.

One question: I have not followed Sanjay recently so I dont know what new vocal techniques he has been using that TMK may be referring to. Anyone care to elaborate?

Thenpaanan

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Oct 2012, 20:10

In the past there have been glaring examples of "anti praise" such as
SB vs SSI, ARi about HMB etc., We are lucky there are no such antagonism among the present day musicians.
Does it mean there is no professional jealosusy

GNB_LGJ_PR · Post by **GNB_LGJ_PR** » 10 Oct 2012, 20:19

A very well written article - written from the heart!!!

Sanjay has analyzed the music all the masters of the past and tried to imbibe the best from their music.
Also Sanjay's feel for the raga has been the best in his generation - (my humble opinion)
IMO - Sanjay should view it as constructive criticism(the little criticism in the article) and review his music of today.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 10 Oct 2012, 21:48

"Sanjay has analyzed the music all the masters of the past and tried to imbibe the best from their music" - nothing wrong in this statement. Greatness comes from learning from other legends and imbibing them creating ones own brand.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Oct 2012, 10:37

TMK is not saying that Sanjay should not sing Patdeep, only that he just try and integrate the whole of Patdeep in his presentation not just its scale. There are many such insightful comments in here that need to be discussed but my limited time prevents me from diving in.

I get that part in isolation. That is the well known fact that raga is not just the scale. But that is too common a suggestion to give to a musician like Sanjay. So I assume there has to be more. I see TMK mentions about this HM to CM idiom transposition. I understand that to be a phenomenon where a raga, not just the scale, gets recast in to the CM idiom (and over time acquires some new characteristics). May be that is what TMK is saying. Don't just sing the scale, don't just sing the exact same raga in the HM idiom, take the raga aspects and cast it in CM idiom. I would intuitively expect musicians to do just that, though I do not know exactly what the idiom differences are.

I did not fully understand a few things in the 'praise' part of the article, but I will wait for your follow up to see if you talk about those things.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Oct 2012, 11:44

I found the critique full of red herrings.

1. The conflation of Simple/Difficult with known-explored/unknown-unexplored. Words have specific meanings and it is confusion at best (and subterfuge if one is uncharitable) to mix up these things.

2. The nit-picking about of raga/scale. Many ragas are scale based and many others are phrase based. Somehow this "caste" system has been created among ragas to say one set is superior to the other. This is confusion at best (and arrogance if one is uncharitable). I remember a favorite poster of mine from years ago refer to certain people as "begada bigots"

3. The groundless mourning for Sankarabharanam and Reethigowlai. Singing kosalam does not take any beauty away from Sankarabharanam. Or singing Dharmavathy does not mean Rithigowlai is ignored. There is plenty of room for all these ragas to co-exist on the concert platform. Sanjay sings all these ragas quite regularly and he sings them with the same flourish and abandon. No "abstraction" is missing or left out.

4, Many have criticized Sanjay for the unconventional sounds including our own mahavishnu and Sindhuja. I assume that they mean the 'tu-tu-tu''s and the 'do-do-do's that Sanjay lands up in occasionally in the heat of the moment. To me this is just as silly as criticizing an artiste for his stage mannerisms (which many here are also prone to). In my book, if they can't see past some level of hand waving and be able to take in the content, may be they should just stay home and listen to CDs.

classicallover · Post by **classicallover** » 11 Oct 2012, 13:00

It is not wrong for anyone to praise anyone else. But the quality and intention behind the praise is to be appraised. By showering praise on SS, TMK himself gets lots of publicity and kudos ( as is evident in this forum ) may be even more than SS . This move by TMK is maybe an attempt to lift his reputation as a musician ( which is like a sinking ship ) as a result of the reported depression.

As Suresh has said, if it is just some amount of hand waving by SS, it would have been bearable. But it is never so. SS does actions , everything like a cricket bowler, a magician's gestures , drawing water from well , etc as part of his labour with his limited voice to bring out the emotions. But the end result is good music.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Oct 2012, 20:46

classiallover: Your first paragraph is a bit unkind and mean to TMK, don't you think? If you start attributing ulterior motives to everything, you come across as a partisan in this divide that mainly exists in the minds of a few. We can always debate the musical and intellectual merits of the article like Suresh has done.

Suresh: I agree with the conflation part you mention. I was also thinking why overload a simple word with additional meaning and add to the complexity. He did not even build much out of that conflation.

I think we can not dismiss away the scale vs raga aspect too quickly as a red herring in this context. I do not think TMK is saying that Sanjay sings CM rakthi ragas as scalar or he does not offer a mix of scalar and rakthi ragas in his concerts. I think he is focusing on the narrow case of HM ragas in CM context. I am not claiming to know what Patdeep is and what Sanjay has done with it. The aspect to be debated is not Reethigowla or Darmavathi ( blame it on TMK for bringing all those aspects up ) but if, for example, Patdeep is indeed not scalar raga in HM and it has specific usages with specific gamakas, compare those aspects with what Sanjay has done with it in the CM context. Did he keep it too scalar, or he brought over the rakthi aspects of Patdeep to the CM context? I am just asking the questions, I would really like to know. ( some may rightfully claim that in HM the distinction between scalar vs rakthi itself may not exist for the most part, but that is a separate topic )

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Oct 2012, 22:17

vasanthakokilam wrote: I am not claiming to know what Patdeep is and what Sanjay has done with it.
<snip>
I am just asking the questions

I have listened to Patdeep a few times (only from Sanjay and only as tukkadas) and can now identify her from a distance

It sounds nothing Hindustani. In fact, to my ear, it sounds more akin to an ancient dravidian raga (odhuvars, desikar, SGK etc.) It may be scalar or whatever but it is very pleasant. Sanjay sang it as an RTP once for Hamsadvani but unfortunatelty I missed that one

To my ear the carnatic Patadeep has a distinct identity and the ghungat has been uthaaroed so far only by Sanjay. Would love to hear a few other artistes venture to sing it without paying heed to the naysayers.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Oct 2012, 22:23

classicallover wrote:
As Suresh has said, if it is just some amount of hand waving by SS, it would have been bearable. But it is never so. SS does actions , everything like a cricket bowler, a magician's gestures , drawing water from well , etc as part of his labour with his limited voice to bring out the emotions. But the end result is good music.

It used to be worse in the '90s often reminiscent of a black belt Sensei executing the deadliest moves especially when he sang kaalai thooki

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Oct 2012, 22:46

sureshvv wrote:To me this is just as silly as criticizing an artiste for his stage mannerisms

Are you having a dig at your friend Mr N?

Not that I mind; I wish the mannerisms didn't distract me. Although, some artists seem to be able to carry off mannerisms; others seem to get carried off by them.

I am absolutely guilty of neglecting Sanjay, and for no other reason than I simply haven't got around to his concerts, at least not for a few years. Must correct this.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Oct 2012, 22:57

VK,
I have heard Sanjay sing an RTP in PaTdIp, and it was memorable. I can only understand music and appreciate it when it appeals to me and moves me--may it be from a child or an expert musician. I'm also not the kind of rasikA who is armed with theoretical knowledge of CM like most of you are.

TNS was in the audience that evening. He came late, as Sanjay was singing thODi (!) and stayed on to hear all of that PaTdIp RTP and left at the tukkaDAs.
Though I was aware of the rAgA, I got the impact of its beauty by listening to that RTP that day.

Yes, that scalar bit, I did not understand either. To me, much of what I hear from many musicians who mostly stick to the scale, is nothing toget excited about. Pleasant perhaps and staid, but it has very little to do with 'exploring'--which is an asset (hard-earned) in any musician. In fact, that is one main reason I'm drawn to Sanjay's music. Every time, there is something fresh to listen to. Even a rAgA or kruthi heard before, gains a newness. I do not get carried away with anything and everything done in the name of newness. A sense of responsibility, experience, eagerness and a well-stocked repertoire are essential for such adventures--Sanjay is not short of any of them. The gestures? MMI-like tu tu tu like syllables? sruti? All those things do not matter much, at least to me, if I return from the concert with a sense of having heard some worthwhile music.

In a sense, Sanjay being called a living legend has its advantages. Like legends, he can be judged only by his best performances (after all, those are what we hear of the greats and rave about too). I am reminded that even those super humans had their bad throat day, bad mood day, annoying circumstances day and so on. In latter decades when Sanjay truly will be a legend, his best will be available on the media and the raving will go on, all nitpicking set aside, I hope

VK,
rItigowLai, every time I have heard Sanjay sing has been a moving experience. You have heard one too, a couple of years ago when we were at the same concert.

classicallover, Sureshvv and all,

Your points are worth pondering over.

Sureshvv,
Somehow, your rhythmic refrain, 'if one is uncharitable' brought to mind 'Brutus is an honorable man'! Just the refrain, mind you

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Oct 2012, 23:15

This is only slightly off-topic. Sanjay's body contortions do not bother me too much and when it does to the point of slight distraction, I can always move my gaze elsewhere for a bit. That live experience is much different than listening to the CD at home.

But to those who are bothered by it and those who are bothered by those who are bothered by it, here is a little experiment to relate to these kinds of things in every day life.

Look around yourself in your home and spot the things that you use daily that you like, that you love, that you put up with and that you don't like at all. It can be a door or a window or a plant, or a curtain or a kitchen utensil, or a soap holder or hundreds of other such things small and big. Some we absolutely adore and accept the minor imperfections, and others are absolute disasters but we still continue to use for whatever reason and there are things in between. It may be that little paper towel holder that does not quite work when you tug at the paper you want to tear off with one hand, or a little door that does not open or close smoothly. But we still use it, they do their job excellently or just adequately. Many times we have a life long attachment to it and its imperfections have an endearing quality to it. Sometimes we even say we hate it, but we still use it. We hate just that one little part, that is what we mean. I think this body contortion issue is in the league of a minor annoyance that we can afford to put up with but we like to complain about but in the context of the overall package it is de minimus.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Oct 2012, 23:37

arasi wrote: I have heard Sanjay sing an RTP in PaTdIp, and it was memorable.

I am curious. Did you find anything "Hindustani" about it?

Somehow, your rhythmic refrain, 'if one is uncharitable' brought to mind 'Brutus is an honorable man'! Just the refrain, mind you

And I used it only twice! Glad I did not keep at it

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Oct 2012, 23:42

sureshvv wrote: To me this is just as silly as criticizing an artiste for his stage mannerisms

Nick H wrote: Are you having a dig at your friend Mr N?

Nope! Its entirely your guilty conscience. Honest!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Oct 2012, 23:49

Sureshvv,
It was several years ago. I do not remember the details--only the impact of it.
Being a northern rAgA, I would think the praYOgams certainly were there.Yes, being so, it sounded that way (but as with sindhu bhairavi now,which has gained a CM persona), there was a CM-like azhutham to it.
Well, let me try to recall it. It had all the ghAtram (weight) of a CM rAgA. You do know that Sanjay at times picks up a popular tune in some rAgAs and weaves them in his AlApanais. That happened, I'm sure--some lightness(contrast?) he adds to the long rAgam singing by way of introducing a line of a popular melody to it. All I remember is, that it was a solid paTdIp. I also remember exclaiming after the concert: what a bhATiyAr it was! Blame my slip, but all the same, the rAgA was still very much with me, and what I said was not important.
Ashamed as I am, I even forget the pallavi line now

VK,
Getting philosophical, are we??!!
Just as well. Art does not exist in a vacuum. It has very much to do with our every day existence. That's the ideal way to be, isn't that so?
If not, we will be divided in ourselves--our 'art'y selves and our living the rest of our lives separated, as if we are not affected by the music and other arts which are there to enrich us in whatever we do...

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 12 Oct 2012, 00:30

sureshvv wrote:I found the critique full of red herrings.
Many have criticized Sanjay for the unconventional sounds including our own mahavishnu and Sindhuja. I assume that they mean the 'tu-tu-tu''s and the 'do-do-do's that Sanjay lands up in occasionally in the heat of the moment. To me this is just as silly as criticizing an artiste for his stage mannerisms (which many here are also prone to). In my book, if they can't see past some level of hand waving and be able to take in the content, may be they should just stay home and listen to CDs.

I have nothing against Sanjay's facial or corporeal expressions. I was strictly referring to his style of delivery and vocalizations which can be, well, a bit eccentric. This style certainly affects the musical output (compared to pure akAram).

Although, when I was all of five years old, my cousin and I had to be removed from Krishna Gana Sabha's first row (and rather forcibly by my very peeved and embarrassed father) for making faces at Semmangudi. We were both convinced that he started it!

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 12 Oct 2012, 01:28

Mahavishnu,
That is priceles - the "he started it" part!!!!!!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Oct 2012, 01:42

sureshvv wrote:Nope! Its entirely your guilty conscience. Honest!

I have to admit that the cap fitted

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 12 Oct 2012, 05:29

Might as well listen to Raga Patadeep while reading these most interesting exchanges...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Oct 2012, 07:18

Rsachi,
Thanks for Khan saheb's PaTdIp--may I say, the opening strains of it? Of course, he would have delved deeper and deeper into it as the performance proceeded.

Sureshvv,
I had missed your 'ghunghaT kA pat khOl' post until now. Funny!

Sanjay is singing RTPs in more traditional rAgAs this year. Hope he brings some rarely heard ones also this season.

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 12 Oct 2012, 08:14

sureshvv wrote: "begada bigots"

We also have Ariyakudi aficionados (I might call gently) who want to make sure his pathanthra is not changed. The question is - Would Ariyakudi have sung a pallavi in Patdeep ?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Oct 2012, 08:20

Annamalai,

Ari was known for singing slightly off sruthi--and Ari officionados used to say: kAndalum oru ruchi! (slightly burnt food has its own flavor!).

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Oct 2012, 08:56

Actually this reminds me. Didn't we have a composer in our midst who passed away some time back? He had composed a kriti in Patdeep which I downloaded from here. May help dispel the "Hindustani" label.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 12 Oct 2012, 10:25

# 26..

agree.. the whole body swings ..watch this one...

Semmangudi & Maharajapuram...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXEa0hZeCd4

Ramajogi Kamas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlWFkdaF7io

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 12 Oct 2012, 11:08

There is another delightful thing about this Video - as any one who has watched the full concert will testify .
At the start , Santhanam is sitting a feet behind SSI - not far enough like a disciple . Yet not in line as an equal . As Harikhamoji takes full flight , SSI ever so delicately , waves towards Santhanam to edge forward . Which he does respectfully and continues this glorious duet .

classicallover · Post by **classicallover** » 12 Oct 2012, 12:01

Vk,
What I wrote about TMK is not uncommon. You may keep the saying " No man is an island " in mind before reacting. And you seem to ignore the fact politics has crept into most if not all walks of life - even if you think it is to a lesser extent in music. I am aware of what TMK was many years ago and what he is now. How much more respect do you expect to be given to such a fellow who insults the audience openly with his sharp acidic tongue and who irresponsibly came onto the dais with a torn & stained kurta, looking like a runaway convict and doled out something that was claimed to be good music ? And that too was sung referring to a plethora of books, looking as if he was a footpath magazine vendor on Anna Salai or so. All this was unacceptable & unintelligible even to the most discerning rasika & learned pundits. Just music is not enough , even the attitude & character are important for a stage artiste as he is expected to have exemplary behaviour full of confidence.

Dr. S. Ramanathan's words are echoing in my mind as I write this - " MEDai mel pOna piragu, enakellaam theriyum enru paaDanam, keezha vanda piragu, enakkonrume theriyaadu maTTrum pala vishayangaL therindukoLLanam enru ninakkanam - adu daan vidwaanukku nalla lakshaNam.

As regards the body language of SS, I have explicitly mentioned that inspite of it, the music is good. I have attended so many of his concerts and most of the time, my eyes were closed or looking away . On two occasions - once when he hit the bow & mike of the violinist and the bow fell down ; and the other when he spilt the coffee on the violinist, he did venture too far away from his place.

)

I have heard that the behaviour of a stage performer has been classified and there are atleast 16 types of disqualification which have been mentioned . An artiste who moves his body on the stage , I am told , is called " Kampita " and in SS's case it should be "Mahaakampita". MSS, DKP et al may be " Stambhita ".

. This is a separate subject and hence no more will I elaborate on this in this thread nor react further.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Oct 2012, 12:14

sureshvv wrote:Actually this reminds me. Didn't we have a composer in our midst who passed away some time back? He had composed a kriti in Patdeep which I downloaded from here. May help dispel the "Hindustani" label.

I found it. Check out:

http://www.karnatik.com/c3522.mp3

Just listening to the brief overview alapana at the beginning may be misleading.
Please listen to the entire kriti and let us know if it sounds HIndustani.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Oct 2012, 12:25

And here is an instrumental version:

http://mio.to/album/11-Classical_Carnat ... 967_Vol_4/

It is actually Track #4 not #5 as it says there.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Oct 2012, 12:40

mahavishnu wrote:
I was strictly referring to his style of delivery and vocalizations which can be, well, a bit eccentric. This style certainly affects the musical output (compared to pure akAram).

The "beauty" in human voice is its ability and desire to mimic sounds all around - be it sounds of nature (birds, animals etc.) or the sounds produced by various instruments, melodic and otherwise. Finding the music in things all around us and presenting it can move everyone willing to allow themselves.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Oct 2012, 12:43

classicallover, you are going in a direction I did not want to go in this thread and that was the intention of my previous post. Let us focus on the music and issues at hand and not the personality.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 12 Oct 2012, 17:18

sureshvv wrote: The "beauty" in human voice is its ability and desire to mimic sounds all around - be it sounds of nature (birds, animals etc.) or the sounds produced by various instruments, melodic and otherwise. Finding the music in things all around us and presenting it can move everyone willing to allow themselves.

Wow, thank you Suresh. I had no idea.
I will allow myself to be moved henceforth

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Oct 2012, 18:31

cool [update]If we ever get to hear Sanjay together, will move you as warranted[/update]

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Oct 2012, 20:26

It is unfortunate TMK picked Patdeep to have a dig at Sanjay.
There seems nothing 'scalar' in Sanjay's handling of the raga, especially in the RTP.
Sanjay has tamed and 'carnatified' this beautiful HM raga..
Reminds me of 'conservatives' raising eyebrows when HMB introduced Hamasanadi patterned from HM Sohini. It is now an enchanting CM raga especially in the hands of the veteran TNS.

Whereas the innovations of TMK have been in 'rearranging' concert paddhati, Sanjay is the real innovator who explores allied genres and his contribution to Tamizh isai is commendable while retaining the 'classicalism' of CM!

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 13 Oct 2012, 07:02

mahavishnu wrote:
Although, when I was all of five years old, my cousin and I had to be removed from Krishna Gana Sabha's first row (and rather forcibly by my very peeved and embarrassed father) for making faces at Semmangudi. We were both convinced that he started it!

Ramesh, you made my evening!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Oct 2012, 07:18

Ramesh (Mahavishnu) made me laugh too. Yes, have been there, been in trouble myself, in much older times, of course. Yet, even then, the much younger pithAmahar was also a source for our giggling and after the concert, inspiration for our nasal impersonations!

I don't think he ever sang paTdIp. Did he?
Anyway, that paTdIp Sanjay sang in Indra Nagar Sabha still lingers...

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Oct 2012, 12:21

What does scalar in the context of music mean , I am not sure .
I was always taught ( as a listener ) that the notes are like fixed spots manned by squatting players in the game of kho-kho .With the artist weaving intricate patterns running up and down and across (the scale) as gracefully as possible .Passing each note , but not lingering enough to get caught

I am no musician but I can observe the following points in the context of HM and CM

1.The method of developing a raga is distinctively different in the two systems . In CM , it has an identity very similar to climbing up a peak and descending to ground level.With intermittent pauses acting as plateaus. Within these confines , there are variations , tricks of borrowing phrases from compositions , trick of not depending on any known phrase ( BMK once demonstrated this at an Academy concert - He sang a Poorvikalyani which was difficult for me to identify - but then he was making a brief point ).
2.In HM it is a method to draw a picture very similar to the act of a line artist drawing a sketch on paper without lifting his pencil from paper . Each lifting of the pencil denotes a drop in ability of the artist . Each time he runs over an existing line again , shows another drop etc .And with these limitations he can start with a mini version of the final image and expand it in cycle after cycle.
Or build it tantalisingly , (from a point in space to a three dimensional model ) - very often going close to the summing up definition and getting back --all in a progressive manner .Thereby creating a craving in the listeners mind until the halfway mark.

Within these two poles , Patdip comes of as a very fine choice for such experiments . For a HM musician it would always be a challenge to sing it escaping the clutches of bhimpalas ( The teacher would be heard telling the student ... se bachake ke gana hai ) . So Patdeep would always remain a tantalising choice to keep walking close to the shoreline and not get the feet wet )
It is fascinating that some of the earliest examples of recorded Patdip come from the Father Daughter Duo of Karim Khan and HIrabai Bardodekar . Even more fascinating is the decision of Hirabai to fall headlong into Natyasangeeth .Something which Karim Khan did not approve of . By then the Father and mother(Tara Bai had already separated ) . Look further into Natya geeth and one can find Patdeep is a very popular raga for many many songs .Look for examples of major expositions of Patdip and you find a better chance of finding it in the Hubli to Pune belt .(Did Hirabai have something to do with it , I am not sure - The experts can tell )
With exceptions in Patiala school or Maihar school

The purpose of this post is to dispel the notion (if any ) that Patdip is just a minor cousin of a well established raga , taken by the artist ( in a moment of fancy ) , inspite of it being scalar .Whatever that may mean
There is a classic exposition by Ravisankar on the sitar . 14 minutes of glorious alapana establishes the raga so beautifully . Only to be ruined by a 5 minute druth in the company of Allah Rakha . Surely Sanjay must have felt something very intrinsic to Patdeep , worthy of a detailed exploration .Maybe we can follow this raga in the raga section if there is interest .

eesha · Post by **eesha** » 13 Oct 2012, 18:07

"It is indeed very difficult for me to write this piece because any critique from me will be viewed as coming from a rival musician."

"rival musician" ?? Was that a Freudian slip ?? something that has come out of subconscious mind ??

"contemporary musician" would have been a better

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 13 Oct 2012, 19:39

Eesha, in his defense... I think he says that people would think of any meaningful critique as coming from a "rival" musician when that was not his intention. I think he was being very upfront about it, nothing remotely Freudian here.

There are a few back-handed compliments, but I am convinced after two readings that the admiration is quite genuine.

All artistes go through periods (from GNB to Picasso to Miles Davis). I think Sanjay's "Patdeep" period/phase seems to have people seriously divided. I personally prefer the older Sanjay from the 90s/early 00s, but I will take Suresh's advice and get my kicks from CDs.

And yes Suresh, I will take you up on your updated offer. [ennai "isai"thiduveer].

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Oct 2012, 19:51

You got it eesha!
Isn't there also evident an element of 'sour grapism' ?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Oct 2012, 19:54

Varsha,
For someone who is no expert (as you state), what you write makes so much sense. Your point #2 says it all for me.
You can look at piece of tapestry for the beauty of it--for all the work that has gone into it. You can also look at it, as a frame containing that many colors and so many strands of yarn--and just that!
No work of art hopefully has an existence like that! Art is not like sheep to be counted. It flows. Even a cubist painting does that. A child who is at the stage of reveling in counting one...two...three will perhaps start counting say, the triangles in the picture (the components), but will soon start exclaiming about the colors, or the way the picture affects him.Though the scalar bit is meant for scholars, the way I tried to understand it was by assuming that it was about the skeletal thing, not the fleshed out result of the rAgA.'What good bones!', an artiste might think about the model he paints, but what we in the end see is the intricacies and individuality of the subject he brings alive in a picture.

My problem with the blog (on reading it over again), was 'how' we as readers were to make any sense out of it. Supposing we took TMK's words literally: his praises were
beyond words. So were his words of criticism which followed. If you took both parts seriously, which is the truth and which is not? Because, aren't we left with two different opinions on the very same subject?

Eesha,
Yes. Slip or not, 'a contemporary', 'a musician of our times' or something like that would not have sounded the way it does.

Taking a leaf from life, as VK has done before in this thread: there are some folks in this world who stay in the comparison mode all the time. To them, if we say, 'Oh, isn't she/he an agreeable woman/man!'--immediately, the reaction is: am I not agreeable? If someone else is appreciated for some quality or deed, they get piqued and think/exclaim: so. am I not that? Only psychologists can explain this, up to a point

Are the true rivalries which have existed in the music world or anywhere else--are they built on insecurities and other human qualities as--well, dramatically portrayed in Amadeus??

There is room for all in any given field of art. Every period has some outstanding artistes, one's glory not taking away that of others. We as rasikAs want them all, for what they have to offer us...