Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

[vasanthakokilam]

I was listening to the interview on the Crossover radio show by Jill Pasternak with Sruthi of Philadelphia on WRTI ( http://www.wrti.org/post/sruti-sharing- ... experience ). This was conducted in the context of the Sowmya concert couple of weeks back as discussed in this thread ( http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20151)

You can listen to the interview here:

http://cpa.ds.npr.org/wrti/audio/2012/11/co121103.mp3

It is quite delightful that the host Jill Pasternak took a lot of interest in exploring carnatic music and asking the right questions. So that was all wonderful.

OK, that is the context.

When I was listening to it, it was very frustrating to hear the highly motivated host Jill Paternak having significant difficulty in relating to what a raga is. Please listen to it and let me know if it is just me. Frustration may be the wrong word. It is more of a feeling of helplessness in how to communicate such things that we all know so instinctively. I think you will come away with the feeling she did not quite get it. In the interview you will learn that she had attended at least one Sruthi sponsored concert.

Just to make sure, this is not to be critical of Jill Paternak or the panel. Not at all, au contraire. As you will hear, she is a wonderful person trying earnestly to get an understanding so she and her audience can enjoy what we enjoy. She got the right guests for the show and they all spoke very well: "..Raji Venkatesan, president of Sruti: The India Music and Dance Society; Kiranavali Vidyasankar, Carnatic music teacher, writer and performer; and Steven Hopkins, professor of religion at Swarthmore college, whose interest in Hinduism has taken him to India and drawn him to Carnatic music....."

I am just using this above context as an example to raise these related questions on what is the right way to explain carnatic music ( for that matter hindusthani music in this context ) to musically knowledgeable people like Jill Paternak. Sometimes I feel we make it out to be much more complex, mystical and mysterious than what it actually is.

My idea is we can brainstorm it here and come up with a good set of answers collectively. Then try it on a few people and see if it works reasonably well.

What Is the best way to succinctly convey the concept of the raga for a western music rasika to grasp? Are the difficulties they face rooted in how we explain it? Do we make it too technical?

"A Melodic Motif that has an independent existence outside of compositions" is the shortest definition I can come up with for such an audience but I am not sure that would have worked either. May be I can add an addendum that the motif is built using scales/modes and other construction material ( hoping they will ask what those construction materials are at which point one can spring forth raga specific characteristic phrases and ornamentation)

Ms. Kirnavali said all the right things, and which is what most of us would have tried in an attempt to explain. And Paternak could relate them to her background in western music but then rightfully wondered what the difference is then since they are all present in western music ( you have scales, we have scales; you have ornamentation we have ornamentation, what is big diff ) That is when my helplessness was at its peak
She was on to tonality differences which is sort of in the right ball park but that is too broad and abstract. It is not satisfactory that she could only relate to it at that abstract level. I thought she was getting very close. But I am very glad that she did not hesitate to convey her difficulties.

[varsha]

That traffic gridlock displayed by rsachi - birmingham vs bangalore - sums it up best .
OUR CM AND HM is that gridlock . All other music is that traffic that flows and flows smoothly

On a serious note , one may have to consider the following points in opening up this discussion .

1. Time it takes to understand our music at the 35% pass mark level . In my case it was 20 years
2. Understanding our music is like the snowfall over icy peaks , year after year . Each layer of fresh snowfall adds to the orginal surface . One can drill through the layers to the bottom most level and calulate the age ( of learning ) . Drilling down myself , I liked the slam bang veena strains of a RK Suryanarayana when I was eight. But walked out of a Doreswamy Iyengar concert as a ten year old because I did not like the way he explored a raga . Today I can trade a thumb to be able to go back and experience that day again . Cannot believe today that i missed A raga exploration in my local temple with only ten people around . Could it have been Begada |(
3.The seamless relationship with lyrics , philosophies (personal or otherwise) , rituals , mythologies , the contribution of the Trinity and other stellar composers in our understanding of the raga .
4.The role of stars who break away from a set pattern of understandings and create newer sensations ( GNB , BMK , SB , Dwaram , Voleti , and in my lifetime Ravikiran ) This is my list , so please bear with me.
5.The realisation that what we KNOW is always lesser than WHAT WE DONT KNOW
6.Ultimately it is all a matter of aesthetics - a very sophisticated display of what one considers beautiful.


http://www.mediafire.com/?y8xhpzasds9vaph
Let us take this simple song . I first heard my Grand Mother sing it when I was lulled into sleep in that utimate of matresses formed by her crossed legs , padded with blankets made from old worn clothes stitched to a nicety ( we called them duptis). And my view of the world moved up and down , swaying to the rythm of the tala she kept .
This song has never left me for a second all my life .
No wonder I feel our music is a part of my soul . My music defines me as person .
And it keeps getting better with age
How can I describe or demystify to others . What is really happening inside the hundreds of minds pondering over the same song at the same moment . I can tell what happens insides of me when a song starts , but that can wait.
More as we go along

[srikant1987]

It should not be particularly difficult, I think. We can play a cluster of songs, name each rAga to them -- if they find "nArI rItigauLai" hard to remember, simply call it Q or T or B, and then another song in a rAga already played. They should be able to see the similarity, and recognize it as familiar ...

Initially a greater contrast should be kept between the rAgams in the cluster, where as eventually subtler differences [subject to the listener] can also be sensed.

[uday_shankar]

Vk

Here are some talking points, some of which people like you, Arun, me and others have been talking about for years in this forum. Point #1 can be skimmed/ignored. It is stated merely to set the stage for point #2:

1. Indian music is strictly tonic music, entirely melodic and without elements of harmony

Instead of making reference to "chords", etc... this single statement will capture all the elements. Then, it can be emphasized that there's a drone present all the time. However, contrary to misconceptions even among Carnatic musicians and rasikas, the tambura is present less to emphaize the tonic than to help the musicians "fine-tune" their shruti adherence. The goal of controlling pitch intonation to such degrees of precision is a special aspect of Indian music absent in other genres.

2. A rAga is a set of melodic constraints devised to reinforce a particular tonal "identity"

These two words alone - CONSTRAINT and REINFORCEMENT - will go a long way towards clearing the confusion.

CONSTRAINTS
The constraints can be simple or complex:

Simple constraints:
1) A rAga is a scale - aarohana/avarohana
2) A rAga usually spans an octave and it's designated "starting point" is usually at the tonic; however it can sometimes span less than an octave (what's the name of that rAga SRGMPDN in which nAdatanumanisham is composed) and can have designated starting points other than the tonic (such as Navroj PDSNRGMP)

Complex constraints:
1) The pidis and specific gamakams associated with the rAga...pairs of rAgas with "same notes" but different pidis (aarabhi-devagandhari, suratti-kedaragowlai)

2) Notes to be emphasized/not emphasized (Although Kalyani and Shankarabharam have N3, it is not OK to hold the N3 in shankarabharanam whereas it is OK in kalytani)

etc
etc


REINFORCEMENT

Over the course of a few minutes to sometimes hours, the melodic patterns and "tonalities" defined by the above set of constraints are reinforced and often new and creative ways of expression are discovered within those set of constraints, sometimes even ways to judiciously break free of the constraints (artistic license), creating a special mood associated with that particular rAga. Above all, it gives a specific "identity" to the raga which is immediately recognized by the initiates, sometimes with a mere hint. Thereafter, the continued reinforcement of the identity of the raga, by way of exploring the melodic patterns within the set of predefined constraints, creates a pleasant sensation of affirming a well-learned experience for the listener.

-------------------------------------

This kind of strict melodic constraints that we call a rAga is not known in other genres. For example, in WCM they keep slipping from major to minor to seventh to chromatic to anything else, that too in various keys, over the course of a single "composition".

[uday_shankar]

I just spoke to Kiranavali and she told me that the discussion has been greatly edited, particularly the parts where they were converging towards a slightly better understanding of what a rAga might be. At one point Kiranavali hummed a raga (hummed so as not to introduce confusing elements like swarams or tadarinana syllables) highlighting the special gamakas from the plain notes, which prompted Jill to remark "NOW I get it". Unfortunately those parts didn't make the final cut!

Clearly, to promote a better understanding of the complexities of Carnatic music and get to a point of empathetic appreciation, many such efforts are required, perhaps a series of such interviews, demos, lec-dems, etc.. It is good that Shruti is trying to foster this awareness.

[Rsachi]

My two paise:
-a panel discussion is really not the best way to learn something. One-to-one is better. Especially when four people bring four different vocabularies into the talk show.
-the best way to introduce any new kind of music is in simple steps... not throw a Kavadi or RTP at the listener. I think simple instrumental pieces are better suited to a strange ear than heavy CM vocal music.
- the music has to be heard and will then soak in... I am sure a first-timer will himself/herself gather ideas and understanding simply by sitting through a concert ( say even 15 minutes with 2 short items will do.)
- using technical terms to map one's paradigms of "known music" into ""unknown music" will pose more difficulties than to build a simple understanding de novo.


Some great person said some time back: "Keep it Simple, Stupid!"

I think Yehudi Menuhin's introducing the Ali Akbar+Chatur Lal piece in '50's/ '60s was a classic. I am sure Varsha-ji will produce that short clip in a jiffy.

[vasanthakokilam]

At one point Kiranavali hummed a raga (hummed so as not to introduce confusing elements like swarams or tadarinana syllables) highlighting the special gamakas from the plain notes, which prompted Jill to remark "NOW I get it".

That would have been interesting to hear, too bad they cut that out ( on a lighter note, they played just the brief alapana portion of Shashank's Orajupuchu and then announced "That was orajupuchu in Kannada Gowla" . May be that is a result of a final cut as well or they are just reading the liner notes ( alright, I am now picking nits ) )

I see what Varsha is getting at. The internal experience is something very hard to describe in words to others and that experience itself is a changing one over time.

Thinking this through based on the posts above, there seems to be a few different dimensions to the description. My hope and thesis is that it should be possible to describe it to someone musically knowledgeable like Pasternak. Making one experience it a much tougher assignment. ( may be that is a distinction with out a difference, but we can try ).

The working hypothesis is this: How can one resist exploring something beautiful that has a shape and emotional content. In other words, a personality. How can such a message not resonate with people who love music and art? Granted, the shape and emotional content are fungible and the boundaries of each are a bit fuzzy. But these are definitely within the grasp of any listener, Indian or Non-Indian.

With that in mind, I think there are these dimensions.

What is it?: a) It is in the realm of melody. OK that is easy. Done b) Then the next baby step: It has an identity of its own. Wow..hold on now...Well, that sounds easy but we have to mull over it. Hopefully that is a communicable and transmittable idea. People nod quite readily at that but it is hard to tell if they are relating to this amorphous identity properly. So if someone nods to that concept too readily, watch out! i would rather someone challenge me on that to explain more and engage in a discussion as to what it is.

How does that identify come about (technically)? : Here Uday's talking points on Constraints and Reinforcements is useful. I like that definition very much for its preciseness and directness. May be it is a bit technical and rigorous for most people but it should strike a chord among those who think along those lines. Constraints indeed define the form ( in many human and nature's endeavors, not just music, so it is a positive word and an organizing principle we see repeatedly ). Reinforcement of the form is obviously necessary to establish that identity. Methods like Kiranavali's humming of plain and gamaka notes definitely helps.

The 'what' and 'how' are closely related and are probably not separate but some people like to approach them separately since otherwise it may be too daunting.

Why raga? : This is I think this is the dimension Varsha and Rsachi are focusing on, rightfully so. This is monumentally important since it is about musical aestheticss. This is too fuzzy for new comers, especially for those who do not have the cultural context. I think we need to deal with it in small dosage initially. There are two potential dangers which need to be considered 1) if one makes it too fuzzy as CM folks, and artistic folks in general, tend to do, it will turn them off. It is already abstract enough. 2) And on the other hand, for those who are amenable to working with such fuzzy things it may not convey anything useful since any art form of course has aesthetics and emotional component. Personally I see this one too many times: A point that needs to be made in a clear and specific way gets smeared into a kind of generality that befuddles the newcomers. But that may be the non-artist in me speaking. In any case, I think it has to be specific enough, not too mumbo-jumbo, not too technical and not too exotic. I do not know the right balance is but this can be adjusted depending on context. But I think this part is important in the overall mix, in the right proportion.

That is what led me to rhetorically ask at the beginning how any one can resist getting to know an amorphous aesthetic thing that has a definite shape and emotional personality. A contradiction in terms alright - amorphous thing with a shape - but that is the crux of the matter. That leads me to the last dimension, the mechanics of how one goes about establishing a relationship with such a 'musical personality'.

How does one grasp/get that identity so you can recognize it when it is standing in front of you ( so to speak )? Now this is the mechanics that the listener goes through. Listen to music in a guided manner, attend concerts a few times, may be someone sitting next to you can guide you through a little bit, and what Srikant suggests in terms of playing songs in the same raga and see if they find the identity through similarity etc. As a case in point,

Sri. Nageswaran asked in another thread about identifying the raga based on a little bit of tuning by the violinist Sri. Narasimhan. Mahavishnu replied correctly in that thread. But that is qutie tough since there is just that mere suggestion of the raga there and I am not 100% sure if I would have gotten it. I tried that as an experiment with a few of my friends who are not that much into CM, but like music and know old film songs well. I asked them if they can relate that little tuning clip to a famous film song from yesteryear. I for sure knew that they know the song I have in mind. That did not work, they did not get it. I then picked out 20 seconds of a Shashank alapana in that raga ( in fact from the Sruthi Philadelphia soundcloud account that is linked from that NPR site,here is the link, quite beautiful: http://soundcloud.com/sruti/spirit-ahir ... v-shashank ) and sent it to them. They got it this time. 'Yeah, that is like Ullathil Nalla Ullam from Karnan. Quite impressive.

Now I am curious if someone who is completely out of our cultural context can hear both the Shashank Alapana for say 20 seconds and then the starting instrumental portions of Ullathil Nalla Ullam and find them similar. I will be surprised if they don't but it will be worth an experiment to mix them with a few other unrelated snippets and see if they pick out the related pair, just to be sure.

But on this fourth count, I am not too worried or bothered if these other genre folks do not follow through to that level of experience. That is a tall order for anyone to expect that out of someone else. Hopefully the first three aspects give them enough of a motivation to get to that fourth stage, if they so wish.

BTW, I am not concluding that the above classifications will somehow directly help in this communication process. I am just trying to give some structure to the problem. Each of those still require further definition and talking points in a relate-able way, like the attempt Uday made above. We all probably had the occasion to talk about raga to others and may be that experience, successful and unsuccesful, will help in formulating them.

[varsha]

I have found
Raghav Menons Book on Ragas
http://books.google.co.in/books/about/I ... ITAQAAIAAJ
and
the whole lot of lectures ( freely available on the net ) by Veena Sahasrabuddhe
very very important in my understanding of Music , as a layman.
Especially the one by Ms Sahasrabuddhe at IIT Mumbai for Spic Macay
http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~hvs/Veena/
Rsachi. I was going to post an Emani lecture in your beloved city and ....
Anyway I will do it after searching for the track you recommend.

[varsha]

http://archive.org/details/SOM_1992_05_19
Speaking of Music: Ustad Ali Akbar Khan (May 19, 1992)
Charles Amirkhanian interviews Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. Topics covered include the various instruments of classical Indian music, the sarod, tabla, and tambura, as well as the typical forms such as the Raga. The last hour of the program is devoted to a live concert of classical Indian music.

[Nick H]

I don't think it is so difficult to get non-CM folk, non-Indians, to grasp the first step of understanding of the existence of raga, because we have two: major and minor. Most people know about this, and most people know that the changing of one note in the scale makes a fundamental difference to emotional effect. Many people will also know that Western music, before the development of the tuning and scale systems in use today, was modal and, I think but I'm far from sure, that would be closer to "raga." Whilst none of us who have not had a musical education would know or recognise, let alone be able to sing, any of those modes, we have an idea of the concept.

We also have an idea of the concept of not using all the notes. We understand that, if we only play on the piano's black notes, we can easily produce mock-chinese sound, or the feeling of some folk music. Thus we know that a scale can have five, not necessarily eight, notes.

We know that musical expression can include sliding between notes, or ornamentation of notes. Gamaka is not so far from that, is it?

What we do not know:

--- that a raga includes specification of certain gamakas.

--- that a scale can be different ascending to descending.

--- that certain phrases or note sequences are a necessary part of a raga.

I write as one who is much closer to not knowing than to knowing. :$

[vasanthakokilam]

Nick, you should listen to that interview You will find that the issue is actually because of knowing all those things you write and then wondering what is the difference? I think that is a legitimate question for them to ask. The problem is our usual description does not seem to be adequate.

[Rsachi]

That I know what I don't know gives me hope that I can seek and know it.
"Raga is colour: the attribute of a dynamic composition on an analog sound canvas painted by the blending and merging of the flow of colour tones; not merely a scalar assembly of discrete dots of colour notes."
Leave the ascent and descent of scales, and gamakas, for later discourse.

[Nick H]

Nick, you should listen to that interview You will find that the issue is actually because of knowing all those things you write and then wondering what is the difference?

Oh! I will ... as well as other material referenced in this thread. Thanks.

[Nick H]

Well, I just did, and I'm afraid I found it tedious, and if anybody said the right thing, it must have been edited out. It seems from Uday that anything useful said about raga was removed!

There may be better and worse ways of explaining CM, and or making it more attractive, but this broadcast didn't begin to do it.

Shame about Ms JP's idea of pronunciation: whatever the word looks like, just say it different . Also, whenever she related anything about Indian music she sounded as if she was quoting from a CD cover. May be she was.

Anyway, may her love of Indian music increase and bring her much joy. I'm sure it will.

[varsha]

http://www.mediafire.com/?u182yixmlk6hkdx

An attempt by Emani in English ( one more to follow )
http://www.mediafire.com/?u182yixmlk6hkdx

[mahavishnu]

At one point Kiranavali hummed a raga (hummed so as not to introduce confusing elements like swarams or tadarinana syllables) highlighting the special gamakas from the plain notes, which prompted Jill to remark "NOW I get it". Unfortunately those parts didn't make the final cut!

If that is the case, then the whoever edited the final version could have done a better job.

And I don't know if it was just me, but Jill Pasternak appeared woefully underprepared for this interview. She had just not done her homework and every time Kiranavali would say something about the rules governing a scale or talk about exploration, JP usually jumped in with the most irrelevant follow-up point.

For e.g. she jumped in to say that ornamentation exists in other forms of music as well (w.classical, jazz), instead of asking: so how does Indian music do ornamentation that is different from other forms of music. That opening would have provided for a suitable opportunity for Kiranavali to describe what we mean by ornamentation, (gamakas etc) in carnatic music.

Jill also seemed to have this sophomoric fascination for the tabla, confusion about what the sarod/sitar are, which suggested to me that she has not even passed the Indian Music 101 stage. To me that is a dead give away that the person is not ready for a serious discussion on Indian music.

In my profession, I routinely deal with misconceptions about Indian music especially among music theorists from the European traditions. But usually these are individuals who understand music at a much deeper level, so communicating with them is not as difficult.

The problem with describing the rAga system in a pedagogically sound manner is that we need to develop straw argument and then bust that argument to get a more refined understanding.

1. Myth 1: A raga is a scale.
This is an easy starting point. Yes it is a scale, but then again it isn't. I think Nick has already made this point.
2. Myth 2: A raga is a mode.
Yes, true if you are talking about something very basic like a Dorian. But this can get very complicated. And to be honest, most individuals lose me when I start talking about this.

3. Now so what is it?
What do we mean by ornamentation? What do we mean by a preferred or eigen-tempo for a certain pidis in a ragam (differences in Bhairavi and Manji for e.g)? What is the basis for what combinations are allowed and what are not?
4. Now perhaps introduce what the hierarchy of constraints are. I like Uday's idea of exploration within bounded constraints. And the thrill of being creative within these constraints.

All that said, although music is universal, it is most certainly culturally specified. The ear that one needs to educate and the expectancy structure that develops with it, can only really be learned when immersed in that musical environment ( I think this is Varsha's point as well).

And finally, VK. Explaining a ragam's structure to a adult who has had the cultural experience and related plasticity, but has not educated his/her ear to the music is even harder. I find that there is too much interference, that is completely absent in a child.

[varsha]

http://www.mediafire.com/?lz4sq62uz9t5l3f

http://www.mediafire.com/?l37i0u668bq1qau

Emani at Mysore

-------------------------------------------
http://visionbooksindia.com/details.asp?isbn=8170942365

Indian Classical Music: An Initiation
Raghava R. Menon
Price: Rs. 95

"This book is an enriching experience for all those who are fascinated by Indian classical music. It offers an unusual insight into what makes Indian classical music what it is; many-splendoured, simple, yet subtle and impossible to pin down using conventional parameters."

As the author points out, almost every Indian art is directed towards transforming those who are attracted to it; its allure and enchantment is only an incidental thing that happens. So Raghava Menon traces the inner journey of transformation that a musician must make as he rigorously searches for his music. In the process, the book explores the various pillars on which Indian classical music rests; the Swara, the Raga, Talas, Gayaki, Gharanas, and the alchemical process of personal, one-on-one transmission of the knowledge from the Guru.

Along the way, the book illumines what one hears when listening to a concert or a recording: how and why a Raga is much more than its notes; how a classical Indian musician explores a Raga; the time theory of Ragas; the different kinds of compositions; the essential difference between Indian and Western classical music, and much else. There is also a glossary of important concepts and terms and a select discography.

For all lovers of Indian classical music, this book will help in gaining a deeper, fuller understanding. It is a disarmingly short book; its multi-layered texture will ambush you with its magic.

[mohan]

My music supervisor Dr Adrian McNeil (an Australian ethno-musicologist and a accomplished sarod artist) draws an analogy between Indian music and cooking and describes a raga as a 'melodic recipe'.

When cooking a dish you need to get the proportions of different ingredients right and also follow a process. A little too much of one thing can change the flavour (rasa) of the dish completely.

In the case of the melodic recipe, the ras of the rag will not be attained unless due attention is paid ... That is to say, the quality of the ingredients, which can be equated with the sound quality or intonation produced by the instrumentalist or the vocalist, must also be of an appropriate quality. The potency of taste that spices elicit in a dish can be readily compared with the "flavour" produced by an artist through precision in executing the correct intonation of microtones. Therefore, just as the correct proportion of spices, along with the primary and secondary ingredients, should be maintained in cooking, so too the proper flavour of the rag can only be produced through the correct tempering of its primary and secondary melodic material with the appropriate microtones.

Adrian McNeil, Why Hindustani Musicians are Good Cooks: Analogies between Music and Food in North India , Asian Music, Vol. 25, No. 1/2, 25th Anniversary Double Issue (1993 - 1994), pp. 69-80.

[srikant1987]

Mahavishnu, I feel you are being rather harsh on Jill Pasternak. From what is given in the clip, it did seem to me that Smt Kiranavali Vidyashankar was being too hasty in responding to Ms Pasternak's questions and comments.

That it is an audio interview -- and I presume JP & KV were together physically too -- offered plenty of space to demonstrate in music whatever was spoken.

I agree that JP's interventions at times are equally hasty, and there's an irritating "Me [We] too!" tone in her talking.

But were KV contemplative in her responses, it would have perhaps made JP understand that the matter is rather serious -- it does seem that JP wants to understand things a tad more technically than being able to identify rAgas. I recollect this Arthur Schopenhauer quote now.

“He who writes carelessly confesses thereby at the very outset that he does not attach much importance to his own thoughts.”

And regarding the "We too" thing, I recollect this anecdote involving Bruce Lee:

A master martial artist asked Bruce Lee to teach him everything Bruce knew about martial arts. Bruce held up two cups, both filled with liquid.

“The first cup,” said Bruce, “represents all of your knowledge about martial arts. The second cup represents all of my knowledge about martial arts. If you want to fill your cup with my knowledge, you must first empty your cup of your knowledge.”

I was similarly irritated during the svAnubhava interactive session in Delhi with Sri Nedanuri Krishnamurthy. A comparative study just doesn't seem likely to achieve anything.

[Kiranavali]

Dear rasikas,

This is the first time I am posting in this forum, and I am doing so as I felt that this thread needed some clarification from a participant in the radio show.

It is true that the radio show was edited out quite a bit. However this show was not really a platform to talk about Indian music, but more an avenue to promote some of the events that were being organized by SRUTI (http://www.sruti.org). It was only incidentally that we were asked a little about the music that was being showcased in these SRUTI events, so that the larger American audiences could be drawn to our events. A radio show host(esss) feels compelled to engage everyone in the room, and thus Jill conversed with and asked questions of the panel members in turns. The questioning or lingering on music-related questions was therefore quite sporadic and fleeting. The total discussion lasted about 20 minutes and the rest (about 30-40 minutes) of the show time was to be filled with sample music tracks so that listeners would get an idea of what our music sounds like and decide whether they were tempted enough to attend the SRUTI events that were being promoted. As it turned out, only about 30 minutes of the program was finally aired with a majority of the time being allotted for the tracks and details of the various events, with little time left for the discussion on music. This served the purpose of the show from the point of view of SRUTI as well as WRTI, but not necessarily Carnatic music. However as I said earlier, this show wasn't meant to promote the music, but the events.

Last year we did a similar show where, again due to time and other constraints, I did try to squeeze in some meaningful explanations about the key differences between our music and theirs using the Shankarabharanam scale for illustration. This year I used the Keeravani scale because Jill asked me how a minor scale would sound, and at the end of it, happily told me that she finally got it! And in most instances if she asked me a question and there were 2-3 points to make, the discussion would move on a tangent if she found some interesting word she could relate to, say, in the course of my talking about the first point! Thus it led to incompleteness in the understanding of the music, especially from our viewpoint, but an American listener probably got an initial taste for it and some superficial understanding too. I guess after any show like this, it would be up to organizations like SRUTI and musicians/teachers in each area to take listeners farther. The events themselves should also help do it. However the good news is that Jill is definitely interested in our music enough at this point that she told me at the end of this show that she would like me to come and participate in a separate show to talk about our music. So let us see if that happens!

In the last decade that I have lived in the US, I have participated in many workshops, panel discussions, seminars and such to talk about our music to both Indian and American audiences. What I have realized is that it is tough even for an uninitiated Indian listener to understand our music in a few hours although the sounds are not completely unfamiliar. One can then imagine how it might be to a Westerner. If he is initiated in his own music culture, he comes with his preconceived notions that are often hard to penetrate through, and if he doesn't know music at all, one would have to figure out where to begin because every single idea would be alien to him. Even to lay a bare foundation of the components of our music and make someone grasp the depth and width of it is quite challenging. I have usually tried to break it down in very simple terms using Powerpoint, audio samples, singing myself and so on. Even regular students of Carnatic music take many months/years to comprehend the different aspects of our music. For example, the very common idea of raga - starting from the skeleton to an entity with its own form and life - is something that an average student typically learns in layers over many years. However, constant listening does help him grasp these concepts at the intuitive level much more than classroom discussions, and at this point, I feel a healthy combination of both is what will spread our music in any meaningful manner anywhere in the world. I think that a series of sessions (radio shows, workshops, discussions or whatever else) in an evenly paced/spaced manner is what can foster a better understanding because one needs not merely time to explain, but tons of it to think, digest and absorb. Why should we expect a v.short radio show to do that?

Everything I have expressed here are my own thoughts - I don't mean to defend or offend anyone - and I hope they will be taken in the spirit of objective discussion!

Regards,
Kiranavali

[vasanthakokilam]

Kiranavali, Welcome to the forum. Thanks for pitching in with the first person account of the happenings in that radio show and your view points about the general topic of this thread.

[Nick H]

Yes, thanks indeed. Trying to make the programme into something it wasn't intended to be is our mistake, although the way that it was edited/presented made me feel that either the announcements felt like an interruption in the music discussion, or the discussion was an interruption in the announcements! It didn't work out well.

I think that a series of sessions (radio shows, workshops, discussions or whatever else) in an evenly paced/spaced manner is what can foster a better understanding because one needs not merely time to explain, but tons of it to think, digest and absorb. Why should we expect a v.short radio show to do that?

Yes! You are right, but what a shame something so key as a two-minute raga demo got cut out as that would have been a gem.

Overall, I'm glad that JP enjoys and promotes Indian music, and I am nobody to lecture her, as my knowledge may be no greater, but I still find it odd that she had so much trouble with pronunciation, even the names of people with her, who surely introduced themselves to her. Speaking as a foreigner, I can say that these South Indian names and words (although my wife still laughs at some of my attempts) are hardly Chinese, or French, even, which, to a non-French-speaking English speaker is completely impossible to read correctly.

What I have realized is that it is tough even for an uninitiated Indian listener to understand our music in a few hours although the sounds are not completely unfamiliar. One can then imagine how it might be to a Westerner.

And, whether Indian or non-Indian, the person has to start out by liking the music. Many just don't, and no amount of explanation or education is going to make any difference to that. Of course, there can be a progression from lighter to heavier, a path that many of us must have followed, but there are still those whose smile disappears at the beginning of an alapana just as mine does at the teletubbies.

If he is initiated in his own music culture, he comes with his preconceived notions that are often hard to penetrate through, and if he doesn't know music at all, one would have to figure out where to begin because every single idea would be alien to him.

It is very difficult for us. If we have never sat in, let alone grown up with, singing or instrumental classes, then those SRGMPDN lines in a book convey no sense of melody at all. The five lines of the Western stave at least give some intuitive visual up-and-down clues, but still leave us falling well short if we cannot apply the flats and sharps in our heads.

[Rsachi]

Varsha-Ji
I am listening to Emani...so fantastic! Many many thanks!

[Ponbhairavi]

If , as I understand, explaining the swaroopam of a raga is the crux of the problem I would as a lay man think in this way.

The perceptions by the sense organs are experiences to be undergone and not “concepts” which can be explained. Music is to the ear what beauty is to the eyes, taste to the tongue fragrance to the nose, heat to the skin.
In C M about ragas, there are people who may not know the constituent swaras of many ragas yet who differentiate and enjoy scores of them. So to make a stranger (and it makes no difference whether the person is a lay man or an expert in other musical systems.) realize what is a raga perhaps it is better to make them experience what is a raga ,. Most carnatic musicians before starting a raga alapana ( or a song without alapana ),give in a few seconds a sketch ,an outline,a quintessence ( a moorcha )of that raga i.e.the ups ,downs and salient contours. Some ragas (like neelambari,sahana atana kundalavarali kamas etc. ,) are quite catchy . we may proceed this way.
!- we may make them listento that raga moorcha repeatedly several times.(instrumental music is preferable as it helps in concentration.)
2-then we should make them listen to other songs in the same raga- not the whole song onlythe portion where that particular moorcha occurs (particular swarasthanam) we may help them pointing out the similarity.
3-then go to another song , yet another. Etc..movie songs are helpful as they are often simplified catchy versions.
4-come again to the original moorcha and make them “hum” the pattern. The whole exercise not to exceed half an hour.--
If at the end they come to realize that there is some similarity, then the first step is crossed.

For the lay man ALL E.C.G. recordings look alike.(they have only 5 variables( P Q R S T ) whereas ragas has 7). Even technicians by the experience of seeing hundreds of them come to know of gross pattern differenciation.( so also x-ray technicians.). Even medical students come to learn how to read E.C.G only by experience and constant exposure. Whereas this is visual, music is abstract and therefore needs concentration.
The listener if he is an expert in another musical system may come to realize ( perhaps it is slightly easier for him than for the lay man ) about the “swaroopam” of the raga which is conjured up by particular notes in a particular order with particular emphasis.

[vasanthakokilam]

( Let me apologize in advance if I come across as lecturing, though not intended that way. Hope it is not that tortuous )

Just as the radio program went in a direction that may not have been intended, this thread has gone in a few different directions including being critical of the host, of the panel, of the format etc. That is par for the course in our forum discussions.

But let me state something since I feel a bit of responsibility as the OP.
My intention was to focus on the general issue and not just this program itself.
This way we can arrive at a well rehearsed set of ideas that can be spoken well at moment's notice that have a moderate chance of succeeding over a range of audiences. A range of ideas for a range of audiences.
I agree analyzing what happened in this radio program can not be avoided, but we have to be very careful.

it is totally unfair to be critical or pick nits with the host or the panel. We may feel good that we have nailed the problem..Ha...No, we have not. In fact we should be thankful for the opportunity thus provided to discuss this in an open forum. I realize we are putting Kiranavali on the spot here. Hope she does not feel that too much and continue to participate as she feels necessary.

The constraints that were present there are real and they will be present almost everywhere. We have to be ruthlessly objective about what works in what situations. We can not control reality to the extent we think we can.

There are a lot of such constraints: the background of the person, the environment, time constraints, topic meandering to other topics,
the host catching on to irrelevant points etc. As Kiranavali rightly said, many of these constraints are present with Indian audiences as well.

Keep all this context in mind. Though we tend to take on the role of ambassadors of music, the issue is much bigger than all of us.
So it has to be approached with a sense of detachment, and putting us in their shoes. Say, in my case,
by imagining someone explaining to me a genre of painting about which I know nothing about. Do they explain it with technicalities
about brush strokes, colors and medium used or they focus on the aesthetics. I am sure they will be frustrated with me since I would be
asking all sorts of annoying questions that would miss their point entirely.

This is not simple, I agree. But it has to start some where. My belief, it is just a belief, is that it is possible to come up with a box of chocolates.
Not the same set of ideas for every occasion but a range of ideas that one can draw up on depending on the kinds of constraints that
are present. We already have quite a few ideas in this thread and so we are on the right track.

[Nick H]

In terms of casting light on the matter, you make excellent points. I do feel that many have tried to do just that, and will go forward in the same vein. There's only so much that can be said about a thirty-minute radio broadcast, but how something might be done well quite validly includes how it might be done badly, so I disagree that it is is unfair to criticize or nitpick about a given example: I think it is very fair! But I totally accept the point that it never was the purpose of the program to explain CM or raga, in the first place, so we cannot put that expectation on it.

[mohan]

When describing the Carnatic tala system to foreigners, I don't think it is useful to start with the 35 talas. In practice there are only half a dozen talas in regular use. What is special are the various permutations and combinations that can be weaved into the tala's framework and the complex improvisation that takes place using this framework.

[varsha]

Please search for this on sangeethapriya.
Sangeethapriya - What an invaluable resource !!!! Hats off to all of them

Universality of Music

A radio feature written and produced by Sri N S Srinivasan
This is an award winning radio feature in English by Srinivasan.
No other details available.
The commentary starts with the author's note by Srinivasan who was much more than just a flautist.He was a muiscologist of rare calibre.
Here is the synopsis and teh authors note.
UNIVERSITY OF MUSIC
SYNOPSIS
Music is a universal language. Like all other languages, the language of music also has local idioms, has its own traditions, the richness of the musical heritage of the world depends on these individual contributions of different musical traditions.
Music as the expression of the one of the important aspects of civilizations, like speech and everything connected with life and living beings, follows a particular process of evolution.
Starting from sound, this feature, within the given time, briefly deals with the origin and evolution of music. The conclusions arrived at in this feature are backed up by historical evidence and clues from Vedas and scriptures in music.
AUTHOR’S NOTE
The problem of the origin of music can scarely be taken as a question of absolute beginnings. It is a matter, on the one hand, of discovering the historical evidence of the first known existence of music, and on the other, of studying systematically the conditions basic to the manifestation of music.
A comparative examination of historical and systematic evidence affords a natural and logical, if not a strictly scientific, approach to the solution of a problem, which like many other problems of origin, does not lend itself to a definite answer.
Thanks To Smt Sarada for allowing me access to Srinivasan's collection.
Vijayagopal

[varsha]

Music is easier than Physics Chemistry- Thanjavur Sankara Iyer
http://www.mediafire.com/?vgtdpgs8uh4qylu

[Rsachi]

Vasanthakokilam,
Tortuous, torturous, or both?

Kabir said, 'Gunge Keri Sharkara' - a dumb man describing the taste of sugar - that describes the efforts at a theoretical explanation of an aesthetic experience. So my kudos and best wishes to all so engaged!

[vasanthakokilam]

how something might be done well quite validly includes how it might be done badly, so I disagree that it is is unfair to criticize or nitpick about a given example: I think it is very fair!

Yup, yup. My point was about this particular radio program since I am the one who dragged it here and as we all learned the path that led to the Raga discussion was accidental and incidental to the main objective. Anyway, on to the actual topic.

Varsha, I hear what Sri Tanjore Shankara Iyer says. He probably has more to say. It will be interesting to ask him the question:. 'Ragamna ennannu ketta nInga enna solluvEL?' (roughly, if someone asks what is a ragam, how will you answer that ). That would be awesome to hear him talk about it for some time.

[varsha]

That would be awesome to hear him talk

Not everything will be palatable to you / or me / or others . He could be acerbic at times and definitely he was old fashioned .
But we can come to THOSE clips progressively

[Nick H]

Please search for this on sangeethapriya.
Sangeethapriya - What an invaluable resource !!!! Hats off to all of them

Universality of Music

A radio feature written and produced by Sri N S Srinivasan
This is an award winning radio feature in English by Srinivasan.
No other details available.
The commentary starts with the author's note by Srinivasan who was much more than just a flautist.He was a muiscologist of rare calibre.

I couldn't find it there, but google helped me to find this page which has a link for downloading

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Varsha and Nick. Wow! Excellent program. A must listen.

(And while you are at it, do check out the other posts in that blog by Sri. Vijayagopal . Quite a variety of good stuff Including an out of this world mallari by Tiruvisha Jayashankar (http://lokabhiramam.blogspot.in/2012/07 ... llari.html). I will post this link in the track of the day thread. )

[uday_shankar]

vk and ramesh

I think the importance of constraints and reinforcement may have been missed.

I use these words deliberately after listening to a lot of western classical music and developing a taste for specific sub-genres within it (baroque, more specifically Bach, more specifically Bach as interpreted by Glenn Gould, more specifically Glenn Gould interpreting the Art of Fugue!)

First, it is not necessarily a myth that a raga is nothing more than a scale. I will illustrate this in respect of a Santoor recital by Shiv Kumar Sharma playing an alap jod jhala in say bhoopali or Malkauns, both quite scalar I daresay. So what makes the experience of a scale as a rAga unique ? It is simply this - there is no other context in world music where a limited set of notes get repeated and "explored" for several minutes - sometimes hours - at a stretch to create a composite musical effect. So when somebody like Jill in this interview says "Oh yeah, we have scales too" it is precisely this reinforcement over time that is missed. For people with a purely Indian classical mindset this is so implicit that they would never recognize the importance of pointing it out. Anyways, due to this reinforcement, even an entirely gamakam-free instrument like the Santoor is able to explore the scale and create the composite effect of a Malkauns or Bhoopali; out of it all blossoms a profound experience we all love, called a rAga.

A western classical piece, say a romantic era piece by Brahms, is an experience where one is always chasing an ever changing key (tonic) and scale (major, minor, seventh, etc..). So every experience of the key and scale is extremely fleeting, very different from an experience of a scale as a raga. The composite effect in WCM instead comes from a different order - harmony and other larger thematic agglomorations. The scales are only small tools to achive that composite effect whereas in Indian music the scale is the main building block for the composite effect.

The idea of being constrained to a single key and scale and improvising for several minutes or even hours is unthinkable in any context other than as a raga in Indian music. Again, people like Jill might entirely miss the rigidity of this constraint and the intense discipline and devotion that both artist and listener feel towards it; for people with a purely Indian classical mindset this is so implicit that they may not see it fit to emphasize its importance. For example, if a violinist accidentally brushes a panchamam during the course of a Hindolam alapana, there is a shocked hush as if an unthinkable Lakshman rekha has been crossed ! In any other musical context, and perhaps to someone like Jill, this would be a case of ho hum, much ado about nothing. Even in other largely melodic systems, say pop and film music, the melodies are more free-wheeling as regards scale or key; any notion of "scale" as exists is much more fleeting than Indian classical music.

On a related note, at his recital in Shri Nageswharan's house, Shri V S Narasimhan played the audio of some of his harmonizations of Carnatic songs with the Madras String Quartet. After the recital, I remarked to Mr. Narasimhan that it was impressive that for the Pantuvarali piece he not only managed to keep the harmonizations within the Pantuvarali scale (as does Shri Ravikiran in his Melharmony pieces) but he also refrained from the temptation to incorporate a traditional major chord, which would have been possible as S-G-P. However, doing so would have ruined the effect created by the choice of simply using two-note "chords" like S-P, N-M, which keep the Pantuvarali effect intact.

Finally, there IS one other context in world music where a limited set of notes is repeated ad nauseum, sometimes for hours ... Gamelan. However, I believe their goal is not to illustrate the unique melodic properties of the 4 notes (S-R2-G3-P roughly!) but rather to keep exploring simple rhythmic patterns. In this sense they may be considered a set of multi tone drums rather than melodic instruments.

[vasanthakokilam]

Uday: Very good. Thanks for the more detailed explanation.

I am right on with you on the constraints. It is an easy 'buy' for me since that constraints ( or lack thereof ) as a concept is a fundamental part of my personal and professional world view for quite some time across many disciplines including music. In fact contrast as a concept is typically useless without constraints. So buying into that was easy. But then I am selling and not buying

But I have to admit that I did not latch on clearly earlier to your point that scale in the western mindset is a fleeting thing. Definitely that provides for a good contrast and is a great response to the question 'We have scales,you have scales, what is the diff''. Great. This way even scalar ragas can be explained as a first step before even talking about characteristic phrase and gamakas. (As you did, it is important to include other western genres also since WCM need not be the only reference for our task at hand )

"Reinfocement...... For people with a purely Indian classical mindset this is so implicit that they would never recognize the importance of pointing it out.".

I may be suffering from this since that would not be the first thing I think about when it comes to explaining what a raga is. I originally thought what you meant by reinforcement is that repetition reinforces the identity of a raga in the minds of the listener so they can relate to it. But I see now that you are saying that this is how the raga experience is brought out in a concert. I see your argument about that composite effect for such scalar raga exploration and how WM produces the composite effect in other ways.

So it is a great talking point given that contrast between the two systems. (though in WM also, repetition of a refrain in various keys and even scales is still recognizable as a distinct thing for them also so we may expect a push back there, but we can work on fine tuning this talking point and have a ready answer for that push back.)

Even if this 'reinforcement' thing works as a talking point, it is not satisfactory to me for the following two reasons. Help us out here since as sellers we need to have conviction on the efficacy of what we are selling .

1) Not that I disagree with the concept itself in principle but it seems to ( partially ) answer the question "How is the profound experience called Raga created in a performance" and not the question "What is a raga?".

2) Ragas can be identified and experienced even with small snippets ( or as in those raga malikas with raga changing with every line ).
On the other hand, mere reinforcements of a scale exploration alone is not sufficient for a vast array of ragas. Given these two, reinforcement as a concept seems to be neither necessary nor sufficient to define what a raga is even in a performance context ( though it figures in good quantity in a typical concert and hence it is part of the practice )

[varsha]

"How is the profound experience called Raga created in a performance" and not the question "What is a raga?".

There was this outstanding 60 minute demo by Fahimuddin Dagar yesterday on DD Bharathi , answering exactly ,this question .
He took up just the three ragas , Marwa .... Sree ... Puriya to explain how the lingering at different planes makes all the difference , ranging from the melancholy mood of a sunset on one end and , the effect of coyness ( lajja ) associated with puriya at the other . ( purely associated with the intensity of a single note )
He kept shifting to Bhairav and the associated moods of sunrise as a contrast , throughout .
At one point , when it got too difficult for the interviewer , he explained ...
Think of your vocal chords ( or the full Head ) as a camera . Exploring raga is like panning this camera to get those pictures . Not worthwhile when done in lesser durations .
And he was talking of 1-2 hours as ideal :tmi:

After 60 minutes of watching , I did not feel he needed the full scale to sing the raga . With just one inch of the 12 inch scale , I could spot the Puriya

It may be of great interest to study how HM handles different ragas with same / very similar scales ( deshkar - shudh kalyan - bhoop for instance ) to convey exactly what VK is pitching for .
There should be some CM examples too . I remember a Visweswaran lecture where he dwells on Bhanumathi ( ? ) . Trying to locate that exact point in his lecture , but the knowledgeable ones can elaborate

Yesterdays demo left me drained because of concentration demanded of me as a listener . Where does it leave the uninitiated ?
VK why dont you settle for

impossible

as an answer to the question -

Can this be conveyed to other genre rasikas

?

[uday_shankar]

vk
I will post a more detailed response this weekend but here's something to think about:

2) Ragas can be identified and experienced even with small snippets ( or as in those raga malikas with raga changing with every line ).

This presupposes the great body of initiation that went into raga rasana, perhaps from childhood. Try pointing out a "snippet" to Jill and try explaining that that alone conveys the rAga. I go into raptures about a raga listening to a single note sometimes - say the way the MA is sung in Yedukulakamboji. However, all of this followed after a great body of rasana has been created, a priori through reinforcement over a lifetime. Keep in mind that a single small kriti is itself a great reinforcement. In contrast, a tiny pop song often switches between various keys and scales over 3 minutes. So this argument of yours is also from the perspective of an "exclusive Indian classical mindset". Reinforcement IS indeed the key. We must realize get how uniquely Indian classical the combination of constraint and reinforcement is. During the course of the rendition of a small kriti in a certain rAga, the overall sound spectrum contains NO sounds that don't belong to the scale of the rAga, except for the gumki of the mridangam ! This is a tremendous reinforcement of the specific constraints. In contrast, even if a pop song is entirely in C Major scale (not often happens like that), the chords played during the course (say related majors, G, A, etc...) will contain notes that don't belong to the C major scale. The sound spectrum is never constrianed like we're used to in ICM.

Everything else, like advanced raga rasana (how a particular note is shaken in one raga vs another, etc..) only follows AFTER this is explained.

Incidentally, we can expand the idea of contraint to include key (tonic) also. Similarly, reinforcement is not simply at the moment but over a lifetime of listening and initation.

Simple question for you - How did you develop a taste/rasana for a rAga ? Was it love at first sight through a "single snippet" ?! If so, that is an unusual process. For most people it is after listening to several alapanas and kritis. Once you understand a rAga very well through this process of reinforcement, you can derive special enjoyment out of specific details like snippets and single notes.

[Nick H]

After 60 minutes of watching , I did not feel he needed the full scale to sing the raga

This uninititate says that dhrupad artists seem to be able to squeeze more out of one single note than anyone else anywhere else.

Prof. Wright, in his Yale University course Listening to Music, which I know that VK is familiar with, says that Western music is weak in melody. Does this mean that it does not have heart/gut/mind-wrenchingly beautiful tunes? Indeed, no! It means that those tunes use discrete notes, discrete frequencies, and make very little use of the frequencies in between them. In my inexperience, Dhrupad seems to make so much use of the in-between notes as to make gamaka in other Indian music almost just ornamentation. He also wonders at the disciplined, attentive silence of the Western concert audience, and concludes that they are concentrating on detecting any mistakes the musicians might make.

For example, if a violinist accidentally brushes a panchamam during the course of a Hindolam alapana, there is a shocked hush as if an unthinkable Lakshman rekha has been crossed !

Eastern or Western, a wrong note is a wrong note. Further elaboration on how the right notes can be in the wrong order from Western musicologists Morcambe and Wise, with a little assistance from Andre Previn.

[uday_shankar]

Eastern or Western, a wrong note is a wrong note.

Yes Nick, but only to an initiate in either genres. I was using this example to illustrate the rigidity of the constraint called rAga/scale and not to illustrate "wrong notes". And to the non-initiate who doesn't recognize the rigidity of the constraint called rAga/scale it may not seem like a great lapse. Closer home, diehards may think that an antara gandhara doesn't belong in Anandabhairavi but the "lighter" sort of listener may not feel violated at all (there isn't a single film song in Anandabhairavi that doesn't include the antaragandhara). Likewise, a WCM listener not initiated into ICM may not feel that violated by a little fifth accidentally snuck into the pentatonic scale called Hindolam.

[vasanthakokilam]

I have to hit the bed though this is all getting quite interesting.

Uday, I am completely with you on the notion that it takes reinforcement for a listener to get the identity of the raga. No problems at all.
But that does not mean the Raga does not have an identity of its own that exists outside of and independent of such processes. At some level you need to know something to recognize it and knowing something requires repeated encounters with that thing. But that is all in the domain of the perceiver and not the perceived.

[uday_shankar]

I am completely with you on the notion that it takes reinforcement for a listener to get the identity of the raga.

No vk, not the identity, that's only the trivial part. I mean it takes reinforcement to experience the totality of a raga and it's always an ongoing process. So when somebody derives enjoyment out of a mere snippet it may be any of the following a) self-congratulation at identifying it b) extrapolation of a previously experienced totality from the experience of the mere snippet - like Sita's ecstacy after looking at Rama's ring dropped from the tree by Hanuman c) Enjoyment of the snippet in it's own right, independent of the entire raga (like my enjoyment of the MA in yadukulakamboji)

I think the notion of "snippets", gamakams, single notes, etc.. all will only serve to muddy the waters if we're trying to answer the original question stated in the title of the topic. One has to draw the broad lines of distinction first. Hence the talking points.

As for rAgas existing in abstraction, "independent" of the listener, I am a positivist and I don't have use for such theories . I believe that all rAgas are man-made and a great majority of those Harikamboji janya ragas were created by Tyagaraja. A raga exists "independent" of a listener only to an extent that a tala does or a western scale does.

[Nick H]

Likewise, a WCM listener not initiated into ICM may not feel that violated by a little fifth accidentally snuck into the pentatonic scale called Hindolam.

I guess wrong notes often depend on the education of the ear listening to them. A wrong note in a Western performance might not be a sin, it might just be not what the composer wrote. However, in Western music, the composer (or improvising performer) is allowed to write/play notes that are not in the scale he has chosen, and the listener is not expected to know that, so I can see the point of raga "rigidity" in both performer and listener.

I remember from a long time back an interview with a virtuoso jazz musician. He was asked if he ever made mistakes: "Of course! Often! But, in music, there are two kinds of mistakes, the regular kind, and the kind that don't sound good." Probably, had he been a carnatic musician, many of his "regular-kind" mistakes would not be allowed.

[vasanthakokilam]

Uday, you are missing my point(s) when you say I am missing yours and I need to think about how to explain it. I definitely do not miss your point that reinforcement is needed to experience the totality of the raga. I do not disagree with that while I think you are wrong to brush aside the identity as a triviality.

BTW, when I talk of identities and independent existence, I am talking at a much baser level and not any high philosophy. The closest metaphor I can think of is the 'personality of a person'. It is an amorphous thing alright but It has an existence independent of anyone outside perceiving it ( if in doubt, ask yourself if it originates from you or not). And of course the perceiver has to live with that person for a long time to fully experience that personality in all its dimensions through reinforcements. ( if in doubt, ask any spouse ).

The crux of what I am saying is summarized in what I wrote before: You are talking about the domain of the perceiver and I am curious about how to talk about the perceived. If you say that it is impossible to distinguish and it is a distinction without a difference, that is a topic in itself which is not too bad a development in this train of thought.

[mahavishnu]

Perhaps a better word in this context is "statistical learning" instead of reinforcement. I don't mean to get all semantic, but what reinforcement is referred to is the strengthening of a behavior or pattern of activity by a stimulus that is relatable to that pattern of activity. Uday, I think what you mean is that one needs to learn the possible expectancy structures of a raga, the tonal hierarchies and the rules of permissibility/constraints. The learning of this process is cultural, in the sense that it is determined by experience and immersion in a musical environment (like Chomsky's theories of language acquisition).

There is a good bit of work on how hearing specific forms of music (even passively) develops one's ear for the right expectancy structures. Here is Bobby McFerrin explaining the universality of the pentatonic scale http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk (I've posted this clip before, I'm pasting it here again).

[uday_shankar]

vk
That's fair . I am usually pig headed till I see the light...after that it's easy to convert me.

How about mahavishnu's notion of "statistical learning" and "expectancy structures" ? Seems extremly promising but with the caveat that it's getting too deep into technical jargon.

I suspect there's no easy layman's way of describing the raga in abstraction, so varsha may be right . Impossible!

However, perhaps an understanding can be created using simple operational steps emphasizing the unique features of the raga-based musical expereince, using some of the ideas we have been discussing.

[vasanthakokilam]

However, perhaps an understanding can be created using simple operational steps emphasizing the unique features of the raga-based musical expereince, using some of the ideas we have been discussing.

Definitely. We have three or more complimentary things out of which we can come up with a couple of different narratives that may work for different audiences. Looking at what you, mahavishnu and Varsha say, there is truth in all of them. I do recall the expectancy structures post by Mahavishnu and that pentatonic scale crowd demo. That is an incredible video. It is so astonishing that it is hard to believe it was not a staged performance.

With respect to whether it is impossible to talk about this to a new comer or not, the analogy that comes to my mind now is how 'atomic structure' is explained to the uninitiated beginning students ( at least how it was for me ). In high school, the teachers use a simple planetary metaphor of nucleus in the middle with electrons surrounding it in an orbit. May be a good teacher will rightfully tell the students that there is more to it and not to take that too literally. Then in college, a non physics major will learn at a high level in a physics course that the orbit is really not an orbit but a probability distribution of where to find that silly electron. Later on, if you corner a good physics major or a Phd and compel them to tell the 'truth', they will fold and say 'well, all we have are math equations that work extremely well. It is really beyond material description. But people need a description that is relata-ble by them and that is why we talk in those terms. We maintain it is truth in that limited sense but It is an interpretation'.

That advanced Physics-major level stuff is what I find analogous to what Varsha says. That is a fuller truth but that is accessible to those who have been with it for a long time. It will be difficult for casual on lookers or even the entrenched enthusiasts to fully appreciate that or even comprehend it. I am definitely not in that tier. I may be at the lower edge of the middle tier, the non physics-major tier. The high-school tier picture is probably what is needed to get things started and let them advance to higher levels if they so wish.

[varsha]

The high-school tier picture is probably what is needed

And that is why I started befriending Students and practitioners about a decade ago . A whole new world opens when you get close to them .
And lo ! we are still discussing Ragas here . What about the goosebumps when I realise that yet another exploration of Viriboni is about to start . The wonderful sense of anticipation . Ditto for Endaro Mahanubhavulu . Ditto for Bhavayamio Raghuramam .. Ditto for a zillion other things .

How does one explain these things ?

The "other genre" rasika . Is he wrong in feeling like this ?

When the Boston Symphony played an Avant-garde composition which repeats a single chord endlessly, someone in the balcony shouted “Stop ! I’ll confess !!

[Shivadasan]

The discussions on the ‘What is a Raga’ is very interesting. A raga is capable of being sung so as to create a particular mood in the minds of the listeners. It is not that a raga will create only one mood. A raga might have the potential to elicit more than one mood. I am informed that Saint Thyagaraja used the same Todi in ten different styles to suit the different moods of the different krithis. So it would be a difficult task to define a raga. There might be a vast difference between Ragas as they were originally meant to be sung and as they are sung today. I just give below some ideas that might help us to come to a good conclusion.

Strictly speaking, Raga is a theme ( based on a single emotion) extracted out of a set of notes. That is how it should be. Different themes based on different emotions can be produced out of the same set of notes. In practice, this subtlety is somehow forgotten and all emotions are mixed together and sung. Yet it creates a definite identity of its own. Many ragas have been enriched by generations of great artists with special phrases or sangathis. Those who have heard a lot of music recognize these phrases and identify them as traditional. The two ragas Sankarabaranam and Kalyani differ by only one note and yet they are totally different. Two ragas Bhairavi and Manji are totally different from each other even though they have the same scale.

As far as the Westerners are concerned, if a single theme is presented in a Raga then they would be able to appreciate it better. Multiple themes are used in Western Music but with a specific discipline. In Indian Music they are used at random and without any specific intention of creating a particular emotion. Also the interaction with the percussions instrument which has no relation with the theme of the raga would confuse the Western listeners.

Here are some points where the Indian and Western systems differ which, if a Western listener is aware of , might help him to understand the Indian system better.


1. In Western Music notes have fixed values. In Indian Music the notes are generated from a basic note which can have any value. Therefore Western Music trained ears will always find the Indian notes off key.
2. In Western Music one can use all the notes of the chosen scale. In Indian Music only notes selected according to a set of rules are used.
3. Indian Music is a single line melody (monophonic) and the principle of Harmony and Chords (Polyphonic) are not used in Indian Music.
4. Indian Music uses the interval between the notes with continuous glides and other ornamentations whereas In Western Music the notes are rendered plain .
5. In Indian Music everyone is well trained in ‘on-the-spot creativity’ or manodharma, whereas in Western Music they have to follow what is written and there is no opportunity to add one’s own creation. The essence of appreciation of Indian Music is the experiencing of the on-the-spot creativity of the artist
6. In Western Style the music moves in vertical groups of notes whereas in Indian Music it moves with a single note at a time

[anandmurty]

Shivadasan, Uday, VK & others, thanks for this absorbing read!

Shivadasan's post reminds me of an interview with Smt. Kishori Amonkar in Marathi where she says that there is a 'language of swaras' where each swara 'strives to express a mood/an emotion' and therefore to really understand a raga, the name doesn't matter - as her mother told her when Kishori-ji asked for the name of the raga being taught - 'you can call this Rageshree or Bageshree! unless you truly understand the environment, the mood that the raga creates, what's in a name?!'

Perhaps this is why we instinctively respond better to an alapana that befits the mood of the krithi being rendered as compared to an alapana that is stellar and highly creative but doesn't necessarily 'create that environment'. The principle doesn't apply to an elaborate RTP rendition of course, where the sole purpose is to explore and delve into the many contours a given set of notes can bring about.

I've always struggled to 'adequately' explain to friends who don't listen to CM what the nature of this music system is. I guess the error is in assuming that an explanation or a note will suffice. It may be better and more exciting for both parties if we could take non-CM folks on a journey where they find ways to fill in the blanks through listening, experiencing and serious engagement rather than a long-winding monologue.