Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Nick H
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

Shivadasan wrote:1. In Western Music notes have fixed values. In Indian Music the notes are generated from a basic note which can have any value. Therefore Western Music trained ears will always find the Indian notes off key.
Western music has a "standard pitch" in which, famously, the note A (above middle C on the piano) is at 440hz. However, this is absolutely irrelevant to the vast majority of listeners, because only a tiny number have "perfect pitch," which is the ability to hear and name a note, chord or key and/or to sing a specified note, accurately, "to order." This is not really inherent in the music, but has come about as a practical issue to facilitate ensemble performances where some instruments have limited ability to change the tuning, and others (eg a grand piano) can only be changed with a great deal of work.

Thus, it is not really the absolute pitch that matters in Western music, it is, as in Indian music, the relative pitches: the intervals between the notes. It can be said: music is not made of notes, it is made of the spaces in-between them!

However, Western music has a requirement that is not present in Indian music, and it is that its harmonies actually work. According to this, the individual note values have been adjusted to create a scale where they not only work but also work when the notes are several octaves apart. Uday, Mahavishnu and others could give us the lecture about the maths of this. Probably about the history too.

Thus, there may be one person in the audience across several performances who might object to A not being equal to 440Hz. The rest will neither know nor care. It is not this that makes Indian music uncomfortable for them: it is the fact that the Indian scale has not been adjusted to give the intervals they expect, and that makes it sound out of tune to them.

I came to realise this in thinking about why some of my Western friends, although musically adventurous and appreciative of improvisation are just uncomfortable with Indian music. Ironically, it may be that I escaped this particular trap because my sense of pitch is not good enough to notice!!!!
4. Indian Music uses the interval between the notes with continuous glides and other ornamentations whereas In Western Music the notes are rendered plain .
Notwithstanding my earlier quote from Prof Wright's music-listening course, Western music does too, which is why, of course, you are able to easily find western words to describe it. They may even be prescribed in the composition. Can I suggest that the difference is that, in Western music, they are not prescribed in the scale, which is part of why a scale is not a raga.
5. In Indian Music everyone is well trained in ‘on-the-spot creativity’ or manodharma, whereas in Western Music they have to follow what is written and there is no opportunity to add one’s own creation. The essence of appreciation of Indian Music is the experiencing of the on-the-spot creativity of the artist
Depends which genre of "Western" you look at. Would you believe that I never appreciated Jimmy Hendrix until after I started liking Indian music!
6. In Western Style the music moves in vertical groups of notes whereas in Indian Music it moves with a single note at a time
I think you covered this in your point 3. Western music uses harmony extensively, but not always: there is plenty of single-note music, and plenty of melodies which can be extracted from their harmonic setting and sung or hummed or played on a single-note instrument. It is only stuff like Uday's fugues*, cannons, etc that cannot stand alone.



*What's a fugue? Don't ask me! I never really listened to much of this kind of W. Classical. But do watch this:

So You Want To Write A Fugue?

and enjoy! Perhaps it also illustrates perfectly that, before even approaching description or explanation of a musical form, better to start with an practical illustration. There were just a few notes in one of the clips Varsha (I think) posted that said so much more than words.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Notwithstanding my earlier quote from Prof Wright's music-listening course, Western music does too, which is why, of course, you are able to easily find western words to describe it. They may even be prescribed in the composition. Can I suggest that the difference is that, in Western music, they are not prescribed in the scale, which is part of why a scale is not a raga.
:?: Good point. This jibes with my original line of thought that raga has an identity of its own because these things are properties of the raga and not the compositions. ( there are other properties that are actually properties of the relationship between a raga and a composition in that raga in a specific laya framework, but we do not have to go to that level of Ontology )

We are building up arsenal in our armor for a lot of counter questions like 'WM has this also. What is the diff?' I actually like those questions because the motivated questioner is taking upon themselves to understand it on their own terms. We just need to have good answers to those kinds of questions, putting ourselves in their shoes. It does not have to be most complete and all encompassing answer. Let them build it themselves over time.

So the conversation can go like this for this case.

CMR: Raga has specific glides and ornamentation.
WMR:Well, WM has that also, what is the difference?
CMR:True, but they are typically specified for the composition where as in Indian music they are specified for the raga and all compositions in that raga inherit all or part of that specification.
WMR:Oh! Interesting.
CMR: While we are at it, the specific glides and ornamentation ( the curvature ) are different between CM and WM that is why they sound different to our ears.
WMR: OK. Specified with Ragas and not compositions and the exact intonations are different. Got it.

Nick H
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

I don't think the CMR/WMR conversation would be quite that quick and simple, but it seems on the right lines, and I'm happy to have hot on something useful!

varsha
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

Got it.
gee . That was so easy ;)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Hey, you are raining on my fiction writing parade :)

One thought. Many such dialogs may in fact inform them what it is not rather than what it is. 'neti neti'
Not too bad if that is indeed what happens.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

On a lighter vein, would this "Rubber Ducking' method practiced by some software engineers work for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

"..The name is a reference to a likely apocryphal story in which an unnamed expert programmer would keep a rubber duck by his desk at all times, and debug his code by forcing himself to explain it, line-by-line, to the duck.."

"..To use this process, a programmer explains code to an inanimate object, such as a rubber duck, in the expectation that upon reaching a piece of incorrect code and trying to explain it, the programmer will notice his/her error. In describing what the code is supposed to do and observing what it actually does, any incongruity between these two becomes apparent.."

See if one can bridge the incongruity between explanations and experience with such a method. ;)

varsha
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

Fair enough , about the errors . But what should one do when there is a conflict between seeing the rosebush among the thorns and seeing the thorns among the rose bush ?
( I say thorns because my HM friends complain - why do CM guys shake the note so wildly . We come to music for peace and you make us wear seat belts . My CM friends are more generous . One minute into a HM PERFORMANCE , they exclaim - WHAT SRUTHI SHUDDHAM !!!!
Instead why not dig deeper and deeper until one can locate the " God particle " - something which explains everything .
NOT SURE IF THERE IS ONE .

That is why I consider jugalbandis , such a great opportunity .
And why I consider the Ravikiran - Gaurav Mazumdar Duet album as an all time great . ( The nata - charukesi one ) beats all others in the world by a mile .
One can see traces of that approach in Abhishek Raghurams duets with Mevundi .
The ultimate test of our Music is that one gets the feeling the artist is performing for me / us .( or not performing for me :o )
And there lies a secret , possibly .

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I just happened to see this thread http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20362 which contains two youtube videos of talks by vidwans Ganesh and Kumaresh. I think some of what they say there has some applicability to this topic. Though their focus is 'Ragapravaham and music without lyrics, music for instruments etc. there is some cross over concepts applicable here.
Let me just reproduce the youtube links here for easy reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Nupnh82r0 (Ganesh)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWrj6JnuKQ8 ( Kumaresh )

What Ganesh says at the beginning is what I thought is relevant here.
"....As a musician it is very difficult to talk about music. Why? Because I feel that music being a language in itself
it is difficult to talk about it in any other language, any other way than by producing what we call as music..." ( there may be some transcribing errors on my part )

At least this sheds some light on the difficulties we have been discussing in this thread. But of course that does not mean our objectives are all for naught and we should give up, but just illustrates the degree of difficulty and so any lack of success is not something to be discouraged about.

Their objective is not to define what a raga is. But they help in illustrating the fact, which we all take for granted, that raga is a melodic concept that exists on its own outside of compositions and songs.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

varsha wrote: That is why I consider jugalbandis , such a great opportunity .
Yes, indeed. I can see that in some cases like the ones you point out. The above took me in a few different directions.

This whole thing about cross pollination of CM-HM is a related issue alight, but it has its own dimensions much broader than this WMR-CMR (or IMR ) angle.

About the prototypical opinions about your friends in the two genres ( assuming that is generalizable ), all that boils down to this. "Why can't it be like what I know?"'. That is the thorn that prevents that cross-over. So when an HM rasika complains about wide oscillations that a CM rasika loves and expects, that is what is at play. Same thing in the reverse direction. That is a huge mental barrier to cross and as history suggests, it is not an easy one and it is slow, if at all. That is how it is, not a musically and intellectually superior or inferior position. It is all about what one is capable of enjoying. Not everything suits everyone. In that sense, 'that is, not sounding like what one knows', the problems of the conversations between WMR-IMR that we are discussing here is an order of magnitude more difficult.

That cross over can only come out of pure self interest and it can be motivated by someone proselytizing it ( to help the other enjoy what they enjoy ) but that is all others can do.

Taking myself as an example, I will definitely peg myself as this narrow ranged rasika who can not go deeper into HM like the way an
HM rasika would go. For example, I have to be in exactly the right mood to listen to an extremely slow vocal alap that does not go anywhere for a long time. Here I will be like your prototypical CM rasika who can only comment on how good the sruthi is and how great the voice culture it is etc. This is in spite of the knowledge that there is something there since definitely there are occasions I have immensely enjoyed beyond words such a thing. Like this Bhoopali you posted a few months back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSiPHLtKDY ( by Ustad H. Sayeeduddin DAGAR ) .

Having admitted to that, there are a lot of HM instrumentals where such cross over is absolutely not a problem. They all sound like great CM RTPs to me. A case in point, among others, is this video that Bilahari posted in the 'Tracks of the day' thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5igSEg7yvA

So, in addition to the good Jugalbandis you cited, there are these avenues too that people can be pointed to. Our forum is actually an excellent example where opportunities for cross overs are fairly frequent where folks like you post such links for others to latch on to, on their own time frame.

varsha
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

That is how it is, not a musically and intellectually superior or inferior position. It is all about what one is capable of enjoying.
Here is a different view
http://www.mediafire.com/?apo5phq02ir82w1
( Posted with due respect to the FOR and AGAINST opinions since it is relevant here . This comment was made in a concert and so it may be wrong to pull it out of context . Please )

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Listened to it. Given your cautious statements, I thought it may be something wholly off-beat and controversial. :) I think what Tanjore Sankara Iyer is saying is ( and definitely taking a dig ) that the so called carnatic based 'layman' music does not belong in the chamber music concert setting. Fine, that is an opinion one can hold and defend based on some conservative criteria. I think one should be able to entertain such notions even when one does not necessarily agree with that.

Actually, in the part you quoted above, I think my point was about a different aspect of this, though I agree it is difficult to untangle all this.
Let me try to explain my point of view though it may take it somewhat off track from the main topic of this thread.

I am opining that people need not feel bad or inferior based on what type of music they are capable of enjoying, Or if they can not appreciate something that I as an individual think is a sophisticated and deep art form. I have a close friend whose regret is he can not enjoy a CM concert. He is a very culturally sophisticated person and likes non-superficial things. He actually likes listening to his favorite CM songs on CDs. Just to remedy that, he tried to sit through CM concerts. He just could not do it. It was quite funny to listen to him narrate his sufferings there. He is no lesser and CM is no lesser. It is just not meant to be.

I do not think there is anything wrong with genuinely knowing what one enjoys and sticking to it. Enlightened self interest is what is at play. The same self=interest can create the curiosity to broaden one's sphere of interest. The evangelism efforts we are talking about here works only with those who are curious about such things for their own good. Along the same lines, I would also say that the value judgement we see meted out for having or not having a wide range of musical tastes is misplaced. Some people just do not have it. It is not any indication of their cultural sophistication or modern sensibilities.

That is what I meant in that quoted statement. But this leads me now to think about the flip side.

It is indeed a different matter when people look down upon other forms of music just because they can not get into it or find it unbearable to listen. This may sound a bit unrealistic stance because we see this all the time, with in ourselves and in others, especially in these so called higher art forms.
I think all such people can honestly say is that it is not for them.

This is true even when one is critical about a genre of music. Having genuine opinions, positive or negative, about a particular form of music is quite natural. Denying that would be unrealistic and wrong.

The above two statements may sound contradictory but it is not. Some careful untangling is needed.

Music, after everything is said and done, analyzed rationally with the brain for the pros and cons, dissected to know what elements of music it possesses, its degree of sophistication or otherwise, is about how an individual receives it, processes it, enjoys it and derives any value from it. That individual experience is so primary and predominant that it trumps everything else. This is another way of stating that the main thing that matters is whether it works for them or not, rest are secondary. So such critical opinions, even scholarly, well researched and well meaning ones, need to be understood in that context and should not be conflated to have some absolute and universal meaning.

Not sure why I went in this direction or in what way it is related to this thread.
All of you can feel free to tear this apart. It will all be for the good.

varsha
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

A couple of leads .
Familiarity is a major issue . Somerset Maugham , writes in his introduction , to War and Peace , about why translations will never be like the original. He gives the example of the many ways a name is called in Russian , depending on the context.. Formal , lovingly or so many other ways in tune with the story . And strangely in Russian the many ways can be as many as 10 or more !!!
There are many issues similar to this in CM . Every time the Varnam in Navaragamalika opens up , I cannot go past Kedaram without thinking of MDR . And so I am part of the performance . And as ragas keep appearing and disappearing , there is a vortex of thoughts swirling around . All accompanied by a wonderful beat . What a westerner sees as unnecessary time keeping by the audience is not a matter of etiquette . It is a great display of what is happening around .
A large scale synchronising of individual thoughts with what is happening on stage .
So it is the whole which gives a hint of the individual and the individual leading to the whole . This relationship cannot be understood without familiarity or training .

The problem for other genre folks , is the stigma attached to not knowing and the comfort of their own respective genres . I still remember the admonishing I got from my Dad , Well into my first week in a new city , decades ago , I had written how glad I was to find a Karnataka Sangha nearby and also a hindusthani concert . He had replied and asked me to keep a mile away from that place since he was expecting a tamilian to return to him after a year , in the holidays . And if I failed to imbibe new things , I was better off staying in my home town :)
The rest was difficult if not impossible . Was idiotic enough never to attend Kalyanraman , or MDR , or TMT , when i had the chance . The reason was it took a long long time to connect to the core .

So I did find that CM is smugly proud of its highly evolved condition . Let there be no doubt about . It intimidates the new comer . That is its strength . That is its weakness

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

So I did find that CM is smugly proud of its highly evolved condition . Let there be no doubt about . It intimidates the new comer . That is its strength . That is its weakness
Yup.

Nick H
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

The music does not intimidate. I don't think that even the performers intimidate.

It is a perception of newcomers that fellow rasikas intimidate. I'm not sure that even this is true: it has not been true for me, but perhaps there is more of a "you ought to know this" attitude towards locals dipping the toe in?

Which ever facets one appreciates, there are always more, and whatever one know, there is always more. I guess there is no end ...but the existence of Nobel prize winners should not scare the youngster away from the science class. There is only one conditions apply to that carnatic concert: liking the music (even loving can come later). Without that, there is no point in walking in the door, and there is no point in any explanation: it will not attract people to that door.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nick, what you wrote are true. My perception of the 'smugness of CM's highly evolved condition being its big strength and its weakness' as Varsha put it is along these lines. Varsha's may be different.

Allow for any distortions introduced due to these vast generalizations. There are always exceptions when it comes to generalizations.

1. The traditionalist view on many aspect of CM is you have to be blessed to enjoy it fully or be a top class performer. ( and mind you, not as a sabha organizer, they grant that for anyone ;) ).

If someone does not get it, it is just too easy to blame it on that person rather than the deficiency on the part of the explain-er. It is after all reserved for the few. If this is widely prevalent and taken for granted, one can imagine how intimidating it can be.

And even if such a person who is typically not expected to 'get it' does indeed get it, the praise is disproportionately for the teacher and not for the student. Wow, that teacher has actually managed to pull off an exceptional thing.

I do have a feeling that this will go away as generations pass. I see less of it in the current 'middle' generation. At least I hope so.

2. It is sort of an ingrained thing. My own hypothesis is this typically happens in disciplines where something is highly evolved over time and it is kept in fairly close circles and to attain it one has to be at the mercy of those knowledge holders (and of course, work hard to master it ). You see this to some extent with Sanskrit as well. That is why I think it can change over the coming generations since the conditions that give forth to such cultural artifacts are indeed changing rapidly.

There may be more and other offshoots of the above.

mahavishnu
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by mahavishnu »

Here is a lec dem on raga Lakshana by Dr S Ramanathan.
The descriptions of scale, ragams and the corresponding explanations are so clearly explained. What an amazing teacher he is!

http://soundcloud.com/ramesh-balasubram ... troduction

The only caveat is that the entire lecture is in tamil. But I cannot think of a better introduction to what a ragam is to a listener from any musical genre.

sweetsong
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by sweetsong »

An impromptu explanation by Varmaji during a mikeless concert at Amsterdam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gPRU8x5wVk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IntuAO_ViHg

Nick H
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

I picked up a book on carnatic music, expecting that, after so many years, it might make a little more sense to me. It was incomprehensible! I don't want to name it, because I don't want to disrespect the author's sincere attempts, but one of the traps is to mistake definition for explanation. They are very different, and one of my "complaints," ever since I attempted to be anything more than a mere listener, is that memorised is considered equivalent to understood, whilst it it might be very far from it.

sweetsong, I will watch your links later, and look forward to seeing RV's take on this problem of educating us interested but ignorant ones.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nick: Very much true and I share in your frustration. Dr. Ramanathan, in that link that Mahavishnu posted, does a lot to alleviate that problem by clearly describing the basics by providing suitable analogies. Very well done, but as MV notes it is in Tamil ( and in excellent non-colloquial fluent Tamil )

Nick H
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

sweetsong wrote:An impromptu explanation by Varmaji during a mikeless concert at Amsterdam.
Very interesting, and, as I expected, pretty easy to take in. Unfortunately, it stops at the point where I was hoping that it would begin. Within the final ten seconds he talks about the notes and the gamakas ("oscillations").

I don't know if I am ever going to get that --- without being a music student, which, for one reason or another, is not going to work out.

Hey Ho... I'm not giving up the concerts! :geek:

varsha
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

Within the final ten seconds he talks about the notes and the gamakas ("oscillations").

I don't know if I am ever going to get that --- without being a music student, which, for one reason or another, is not going to work out.
Don't lose hope . ;)
http://www.mediafire.com/?pa1jwghpg6pdq6e

Nick H
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

Thanks, but again, it leaves off at the point where I want to start.

By the way. Sticking my neck out: that's Hamsadvani?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

About oscillations, granted they are technical but one way to make it less so is to relate it as a vehicle that carries the emotional content. There is an equivalent in speech. In speech, there is content that carries some meaning but the emotional meaning of it is carried through subtle variations in vocalizations ( that are hard to transcribe and notate using scripts alone ) Whether it is something simple as a rising or falling intonations at the end of a sentence or the way the voice quivers in narrating something emotional: an act of kindness, , an act of valor, something beautiful beyond words or a tragedy.

A great public speaker is one who constrains himself to a theme and then extemporaneously speaks with that theme as the context and bringing in those voice techniques on the fly to add emotions as the situation demands. I think gamakas can and do play that role in music in addition to other things. In a way that is what a great raga music performer does publicly. Analogy holds to some extent with the raga as the theme. This also explains why many times a technically correct performance does not stay in our memory for long whereas some performances are so great to the point that any concerns of technical correctness is not even in the picture ( they may after all be technically correct, but no one needs to care ). You can see this in public speakers a lot and so the analogy holds there as well.

That may be an easier route to take. All those subtleties are extracted, distilled and packaged as a separate entity called raga. They are then applied to specific songs as the context demands. It is a fungible package in the sense it can be cast differently for a range of emotions by bringing in the intrinsic laya component, as Prof Visweswaran explains in the video Mahavishnu shared in the Sunday Brunch thread ( http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 48#p231748 ). Then it is a 'small' hop, skip and a jump to show how melody, laya and lyrics combine to provide the wholesome experience. This at least provides the lay of the land and an intellectual understanding of it. It is then up to the listener to actually go and immerse themselves in it to experience it which is a life long process of discovery.

The trick is to strike a good balance between the two extremes: dry technical description on one end and abstract artistic experience on the other end.
( The two end points of this spectrum are typically referred to as the lakshaNa and lakshaya but that is just a sanskrit label for what we are discussing in this thread. If I may, our goal in this therad is the meta-lakshaNa and meta-lakshaya, meaning lakshaNa and lakshya of lakshNa and lakshya . No wonder it is not easy )

varsha
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

Thanks, but again, it leaves off at the point where I want to start.
yes . hamsadhwani indeed.
searching for stuff in english is a bit cumbersome . :(

varsha
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

The trick is to strike a good balance between the two extremes: dry technical description on one end and abstract artistic experience on the other end.
And that is why Prof SRJ has been a beacon to the likes of us for decades !!!!.
SRJ - Worthy of a statue , erected , in his own lifetime

mahavishnu
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by mahavishnu »

Varsha wrote: And that is why Prof SRJ has been a beacon to the likes of us for decades !!!!.
SRJ - Worthy of a statue , erected , in his own lifetime
Well said, Varsha-ji.
Couldn't agree more. He presents rAgachUdAmaNi and davaLAngi with the same ease as SankarAbharaNam. His lec-dems on rAga lakshaNa (just as Prof S Ramanathan's) are an absolute treasure in CM history. Must be the Tiger Varachariar training they had in common!

Nick H
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

varsha wrote: searching for stuff in english is a bit cumbersome . :(
It's appreciated, with thanks.

Probably I should seek more from sources like YouTube, because it is going to be mostly presentations done abroad or, at least, outside of the Tamil homelands, because, at home, why should a person not speak their home language? No reason at all!

Not forgetting that the question of the thread is the description of CM to other genre rasikas. This one was sold on carnatic music more than fifteen years ago, and on Indian music long before that --- but still, as well as seeking to enlarge on my meagre knowledge, a foreigner necessarily has a different view than that of the person who was born listening to ragas. Thus, I hope my comments may be generally useful regarding what is or is not easily understood.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I hope my comments may be generally useful regarding what is or is not easily understood.
Yes, definitely. You have traveled the road our topic target might travel.

Varsha, Mahavishnu: Amen on SRJ. In addition to his immense knowledge, his enthusiasm for the subject and the resulting exuberance is so infectious.

A dream cimbo would be Sri. SRJ and Prof. Visweswaran at a day long session of talks, discussions and Q&A on these topics. They may even have some encounters with these other genre rasikas over their long career and can narrate their war stories. Of course Prof. Sankaran is in a unique position to talk about this aspect.

Nick H
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Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

at home, why should a person not speak their home language? No reason at all!
Apart from biological-clock problems, I've always avoided the lec-dems, but someone told me recently that many of the Season MA lectures are, in fact, given in English, on account of the out-of-state/out-of-country attendants.
Yes, definitely. You have traveled the road our topic target might travel.
But you'll find, if you ask the non-Indians at concerts, that something touched us the first time we ever heard Indian music. Something said Yes! And to those that say no, ...they just listen to something else!

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10958
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Yes, for the most part those MA morning sessions are in English. Yes, they do start quite early. In return one may be rewarded with some bonus material. Top ranking musicians from the audience may get up and disagree quite vigorously with what was presented. I witnessed one between a combative TMK ( from the audience ) and a visibly annoyed Vijaya Siva ( presenter ) ;) That got quite intense. Another day, it was Shashank from the audience picking a few points of disagreement. It is quite a unique couple of hours every day though not every day happen such fire works.

Nick H
Posts: 9473
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

Offtopic... OK, so I live less than 10km away, but I am, more and more, seriously considering a "holiday" in Mylapore for a week or two next December! :$

Ponbhairavi
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Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Ponbhairavi »

Has John B. Higgins written or spoken anything on this?

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »


varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

Has John B. Higgins written or spoken anything on this?
He seems to be gurgling ... Mom when do we start the CM lessons ? ;)
Image

mahavishnu
Posts: 3341
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by mahavishnu »

Varsha, I am very impressed with your collection of pictures! :clap:

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

Most of the credit goes to my friend gnanaprakash - a silent warrior in preserving for posterity .
Talking of youngsters can you believe that guys like these spend all their disposable earnings on preserving it , in a manner that befits our high-tech times . And are in such need of precious resources like hard cash , to speed up things before the pictures fade away , tapes go to dust , hand written pages crumble , masters move on the next world ?
Such a crying need for so much to be done .....
Bookmark that name in your memories . You will see more of these efforts .
;)

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10958
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ah.. nice picture and even nicer caption, Varsha!

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by varsha »

Ah.. nice picture and even nicer caption, Varsha!
This one is for MahaVishnu's treasure chest ;)
Image

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Rsachi »

Had Schubert been aware of modern cost-effective procedures he might well have finished this work.

Hilarious! Thanks Varsha-Ji.

mahavishnu
Posts: 3341
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by mahavishnu »

varsha wrote:
This one is for MahaVishnu's treasure chest ;)
Much obliged, Varsha-ji.

Nick H
Posts: 9473
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Nick H »

"But seriously," as they say...

How much does one more violin add to the sound level of a section of n violins?

Lots of other amazing stuff on that page.

venkatakailasam
Posts: 4170
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 19:16

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by venkatakailasam »

See another picture here of Jon and Rhea....

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 7&start=75

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Difficulties in describing CM to other genre rasikas

Post by Ponbhairavi »

I agree with the views inpost77 that the comments of those coming from a musical environment of a different genre and who take keen interest in C M and try to understand it should be very useful.Two persons came to my mind.One is A Danielou who spent several years in india and learnt Sanscrit Sitar and Veena and who wrote a book on "origins and power of music"(an extract of which was published in tamil by Dr S A K Durga ( Isaiyin edhirkaalam) (It is in the tune set by him that we are hearing our Jana gana mana ) But music was only a minor facet of his personality as he did not reach the level of a C M music performer or teacher.
I thought that Higgins who in his craddle might have heard a music of a different genre, would have experienced the same situation-the topic of this thread- while he learnt C M inchennai.He would have faced and answered the same questions from his numerous music students of US. My inadequacy was that I am not a useful search engine.

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