Sanjay Subrahmanyan(m), MA, 26-12-2012

[nadhasudha]

"Sruti lapse" should be used only in the case of apashruti where a patently wrong note is delivered & not used wily-nily to describe perceived generic vocalization shortcomings (PGVS if you will).

Yet another fanciful term - PGVS!

[nadhasudha]

You can voice your opinion but the person who is the object of criticism needs no defense.

Then why are you rushing to defend the music of the person who is the object of criticism ( posts number 49 and 50)?

[vasanthakokilam]

"Sruti lapse" should be used only in the case of apashruti where a patently wrong note is delivered & not used wily-nily to describe perceived generic vocalization shortcomings (PGVS if you will).

When I listened to the time specifications that Nadhasudha provided, I could not detect any. It all sounded like Kedaram to me. But I attributed that to my poor perception of such things. But what Suresh says above indicates there is something else going on. Nadhasudha, what is it you are calling sruthi lapse? Those vocal glitches or actual apasrhruti? I will go back and listen again armed with that info. If it is the general vocal glitch ( vocalization short comings ), I may be able to hear them relatively easily.

[sureshvv]

Yet another fanciful term - PGVS!

You missed the sarcasm!

[sureshvv]

But I attributed that to my poor perception of such things.

Yes. Most people tend towards this. And it is used by a few as an opportunity for one-upmanship

[sureshvv]

Then why are you rushing to defend the music of the person who is the object of criticism ( posts number 49 and 50)?

Because you tried to pass off your opinion as some kind of fact along with a fanciful "proof". If you had stated that it was your subjective opinion, I would not have bothered. I am not defending anyone, just trying to get consensus on your wild allegation.

[nadhasudha]

You missed the sarcasm!

And you missed my sarcasm!!

[nadhasudha]

..

[nadhasudha]

When I listened to the time specifications that Nadhasudha provided, I could not detect any. It all sounded like Kedaram to me. But I attributed that to my poor perception of such things. But what Suresh says above indicates there is something else going on. Nadhasudha, what is it you are calling sruthi lapse? Those vocal glitches or actual apasrhruti? I will go back and listen again armed with that info. If it is the general vocal glitch ( vocalization short comings ), I may be able to hear them relatively easily.

Vasanthakokilam - Imagine a note as a dart board with concentric circles - When a note is sung/played it should hit it right smack in the center of it. Even if it hits anywhere in the nearby vicinity of that center but within the concentric circle it is a shruthi lapse. That is my understanding as per my training.

For the untrained ear, it may appear to be consonant but to a trained ear it appears dissonant. When you go back and listen to the recording see how many points of dissonance you are able to identify. It may "officially" still be in Kedaram but on closer observation the dissonance will be perceptible.

[nadhasudha]

Because you tried to pass off your opinion as some kind of fact along with a fanciful "proof". If you had stated that it was your subjective opinion, I would not have bothered. I am not defending anyone, just trying to get consensus on your wild allegation.

It was not a wild allegation - It was backed up by evidence in the recordings which you are unable to perceive.

.

[kalyani_ragam]

Goodluck with your pursuit!!!!

How difficult it is to stay on topic for you guys! So you are now picking on my screen name?

So you are now picking on my screen name????????? Cant understand what you are upto.

Dont you think you started it by comparing and providing the timings of so called sruti lapses which none of us can make out except you. I guess you are not objective enough!! I leave it at that I do not want a retort from you to make me reply once more to your _____ remarks!!

"nadhasudha wrote:
For the untrained ear, it may appear to be consonant but to a trained ear it appears dissonant. When you go back and listen to the recording see how many points of dissonance you are able to identify. It may "officially" still be in Kedaram but on closer observation the dissonance will be perceptible."



You should be attending concerts only to pick faults I guess than enjoying the music !!

[varsha]

Imagine a note as a dart board with concentric circles

Very curious to know how you imagine a raga .......As per your training in the CM Context

[harimau]

Very curious to know how you imagine a raga .......As per your training in the CM Context

Lissajous figures?

Just a wild guess.

[cacm]

Very curious to know how you imagine a raga .......As per your training in the CM Context

Lissajous figures?
Just a wild guess.
Harimau,
Lissajous figures are CALCULABLE and hence discrete where as frequencies produced by musicians especially the "Abaswarams" are analog in the sense they are continuous! So while your description will work in a classical physics sense, when Quantization is introduced it is not obvious what is happening when a musician produces deviations & Abaswarams. Fortunately now a days adherence to the standard rules of the Game are not considered by most rasikas as important.....VKV

[bharathi]

I am shocked and saddened by this bickering, after what I thought was a 'BEAUTIFUL' concert. I am an ardent lover of Carnatic music have listened to it seriously for the last 40 years. I had done concert hopping in 1978 and had heard MDR, KVN, Brinda-Mukta, MS, Balamurali, MSG, Ramani and Semmangudi to name a few..
I came back for a similar treat in 2008 and boy I was over joyed. I heard 5 of Sanjay's concerts and many of the youngsters like Prassana, Malladi, Ranjani &Gayathri, Ravikiran, Vijay Siva etc.. and it is my considered opinion that, we are lucky to have such great artists these days, who can offer the rasika a sumptuous and delightful fare. I personally feel that the top artists in Carnatic music in the current generation are sincere to this art form and are constantly working hard to innovate and present to us all the treasures that have thus far eluded us. "KUDOS TO THESE TORCH BEARERS".. "Sabaash and thank you"
--bharathi

[bharathi]

Nadhsudha,

"Here you go - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XzSuZqtgdw"

Thanks for providing the link.. I could enjoy another of (part of) Sanjay's concert this season..

I was treated with loads of "susswarangal " in the piece.. 'beauty indeed is in eyes of the beholder'

[sureshvv]

I am shocked and saddened by this bickering, after what I thought was a 'BEAUTIFUL' concert

The "bickering" was not about if it was a beautiful concert or not. Nadhasudha, to his credit, is not arguing that. The disagreement was if there were sruti lapses or not & the verdict seems to be may be for severely trained ear.

[arasi]

So--
After all this going roundand round in circles, it looks as though it's agreed upon--that it was a beautiful concert, bickerings on 'whatever' apart

[varsha]

it looks as though it's agreed upon--that it was a beautiful concert,

And that Ravikiran's lec-dem was indeed a gem of a demo on this same subject .

[bharathi]

Yes, Varsha
It was indeed 'superb'.
Wish I could heard more of it.. I think 45 mins is too short for such profundities..

[nadhasudha]

The "bickering" was not about if it was a beautiful concert or not. Nadhasudha, to his credit, is not arguing that. The disagreement was if there were sruti lapses or not & the verdict seems to be may be for severely trained ear.

Sureshvv - Perfect summation and verdict but for one minor correction - Nadhasudha, to her credit

Varsha - Sure anytime - will be happy to discuss about ragas. If you are interested, drop me a mail through the forum and we can take it from there.

[Ranganayaki]

Nadhasudha, to his credit, is not arguing that.

Appreciate your ability to separate the grain from the chaff.

Sureshvv - Perfect summation and verdict

Nice debate. Important question, I thought. I had actually written much more, but I took it out. But your discussion made me come to an understanding of the relative importance or not of 100% flawless singing. I wondered if truly flawless singing is even possible and whether any of us can even recognize it if it happened. Our judgement as rasikas is relative too and the severest among us rasikas would still be limited by the sensitivity of their ear and training. There would always be more faults to find . Our artists and the rest of us rasikas are constantly evolving in sensitivity and ability and none of us have the true last word.

Ramesh, forgive me for adding this after your wish to close .

[mahavishnu]

Nice summary, Ranganayaki. and your arrival on the scene was just in time
I hope this brings the <strike> bickering </strike> debate to a natural close.

Happy new year folks!

[sureshvv]

awwwwwwwww... not so quickly people

[barrakooka]

Is this thread coming to an end so soon?
I thought the main was just going on, still RTP and thukkadas are remaining before this thread can be closed. (ofcourse quite informative about the viewpoints of rasikas)

[sureshvv]

A portion of this concert was broadcast on FM Gold Sat night.

[kssr]

Late comer's comments:

I listened to the Kedaram piece.

There was DEFINITELY NO abhaswaram, abhasruti or discordant note or by whatever name you call it. The clip was also very good and enjoyable, as I could not listen to the original telecast. There was a bit of strain in the voice on certain occasions, which is not unusual for most artists esp during the season. Also, the "dhattu" swaram usages- jumping swaras by skipping a few intermediate ones, can give one a feeling that he is not landing on the right note.

Some may not be able to enjoy his style, particularly the swara patterns. But it is unfair to call it abhaswaram.

[arasi]

kssr,
Do you remember the old rhyme:

thangamE, tArAvE
thaTTAn kaDaikkup pOgAdE!
thaTTAn kaNDAl thangam enbAn
thaTTik koTTip pArenbAn
tharAsilE pOTTu niRu enbAn
kaDaiyile koNDu viR(u) enbAn!

Golden one! Star! Don't ever go by the goldsmith's place!
Seeing you, he'd pluck you up and test your purity
By battering you and then he'd weigh you!
Take you to the shop and sell you!

With rasikAs quoting gold standard often these days, the metal analysis seems to be getting more intense
The very word critic for a reviewer inspires some of us to nit pick to such an extent that in the process, the enjoyment of the music we hear is somewhat forgotten.

[kssr]

"Missing the woods for the tree". Yes. I know what you mean.

The poem you have given is fantastic. Never heard it before. I would guess that the "golden one" is one's daughter who is very dear.

[arasi]

Yes, addressed to one's child.
Guess what! I had omitted a line in the rhyme--and have added it to my previous post...

[MV]

[/quote] With rasikAs quoting gold standard often these days, the metal analysis seems to be getting more intense
The very word critic for a reviewer inspires some of us to nit pick to such an extent that in the process, the enjoyment of the music we hear is somewhat forgotten.[/quote]

[parakal]

does anyone by chance have a recording of this concert?

[sureshvv]

Heard Musiri's version of this on FM gold and was pretty damn good with same chittaswarams and all... The program was all chopped up & ended abruptly but the mood of the song stole the show.