TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

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Rsachi
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TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by Rsachi »

Read this: http://www.thehindu.com/arts/magazine/b ... 294466.ece

Brilliant articulation from a thinking, good, musician. I loved this para:
  • We need to wake up and realise that we live in a self-obsessed popular bubble. It is lovely and will disappear but if I am not confident enough about my own music, to think beyond myself, it is unfortunate not only for music but for the music community at large. We are today in a position to influence people, and we need to nudge people to go to concerts by the numerous lovely musicians who are not famous, in order to secure Carnatic music.

rajeshnat
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by rajeshnat »

Brilliant writeup,and he is right in saying that many classy musicians without popularity are hit. I can see that in my last 10 years of intense listening at chennai. I especially like when he says the rest of the 11 months is as important as season. On a side note TMK himself is a brilliant marketing person, he uses the hindu very well. Each of us can have a quadrant in our head , with popularity (yes/no) and serious classy musicians (yes/no).

One thing that kind of circumvents and brings visibility to those classy and not that popular musician , is our forum rasikas.org (That is just may be less than 10 % audience). More importantly people have to flock less popular sabhas . Very nice article TMK

vasanthakokilam
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Yes, TMK makes some very good points. An honest portrayal indeed.

tkb
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by tkb »

good article indeed!

priyaram78
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by priyaram78 »

Nice article. Atleast if you are in Chennai, you have a chance to go to concerts of upcoming and not so popular musicians......those outside Chennai depend on Television channels, getting to watch the popular musicians only. We dont know so many musicians.......wish those on top make some way for others too. Their dreams will come true...

KNV1955
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by KNV1955 »

I have been attending concerts all through the year for the last 2 years mainly at Raga Sudha hall, Chennai. I see the same audience (around 50 rarely going upto 100) for popular & unpopular musicians during off season. Very few concerts (less than 5%) are held in large auditoriums like Music Academy off season. Even those concerts are by the popular artists for some fund rising or jugalbhandhi etc. Lesser known artists are featured only in 2 to 3 venues (Raga Sudha/Sastri Hall/Dakshinamurthy Hall/Vidwat Samajam). Infact I can form a club of these 50 people (includes Vidvan TRS/Mridangist Kalidas/Vocalist Jayalakshmi Santhanam). I can also say this 50 are silent opinion makers. When they start endorsing the artists I find they ultimately make it big. I can say Amrita Murali/Sumitra Vasudev/Ramakrishna Murthy/Bhavana Iyer/Bharat Sundar/Sruti sagar/K.Gayatri/NJ Nandini/Aswath Narayan & no of accompanists drew attention of Music Academy & other major organizers during season, only after they performed a no of concerts at these venues. None of the popular of artist who draw huge crowds during season perform at these venues during off season.

Rsachi
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by Rsachi »

KNV,
That is extremely heartening to hear! So the cognoscenti hear and encourage the young talent before they make it to the big stage.

harimau
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by harimau »

KNV1955 wrote:I have been attending concerts all through the year for the last 2 years mainly at Raga Sudha hall, Chennai. I see the same audience (around 50 rarely going upto 100) for popular & unpopular musicians during off season. Very few concerts (less than 5%) are held in large auditoriums like Music Academy off season. Even those concerts are by the popular artists for some fund rising or jugalbhandhi etc. Lesser known artists are featured only in 2 to 3 venues (Raga Sudha/Sastri Hall/Dakshinamurthy Hall/Vidwat Samajam). Infact I can form a club of these 50 people (includes Vidvan TRS/Mridangist Kalidas/Vocalist Jayalakshmi Santhanam). I can also say this 50 are silent opinion makers. When they start endorsing the artists I find they ultimately make it big. I can say Amrita Murali/Sumitra Vasudev/Ramakrishna Murthy/Bhavana Iyer/Bharat Sundar/Sruti sagar/K.Gayatri/NJ Nandini/Aswath Narayan & no of accompanists drew attention of Music Academy & other major organizers during season, only after they performed a no of concerts at these venues. None of the popular of artist who draw huge crowds during season perform at these venues during off season.
Actually, one should add the mini-halls at Bharathiya Vidya Bhavan, Narada Gana Sabha and even the Music Acadeny and Krishna Gana Sabha as venues where upcoming artists are featured. The reason of course is the intimacy provided by these smaller halls, the lower auditorium rental charges, the disappointment faced by the performer when one sees 4 persons in the audience in a large hall such as Gnananda Hall, etc.

In fact, most off-season concerts of upcoming artists are held in mini-halls attached to the major sabhas as well as the ones mentioned by the original poster.

Sri TRS actively promotes new talent through his organization, the Music Education Trust. Now that Sri Kalidas is among the founders of the new sabha Madhuradhwani, one can expect that some upcoming artists may be featured there too, though the stated aim is to offer concert opportunities to more senior artists who are denied them at major sabhas.

Financial aspects have a lot to do with why smaller halls feature upcoming talents. Organizations such as Kapali Fine Arts, Chennai Fine Arts, etc., being able to raise funds primarily during the December season, hold their concerts in these smaller venues. Sarvani Sangeetha Sabha, Nadopasana, etc. have monthly programs only or have their season early in the year rather than in December. All big sabhas have monthly programs now but several of the crowd-pullers have restricted the number of concerts they give and some of them want to perform mostly during the December Season. That is why you see them giving only fundraising/benefit concerts during the off-season and that too in a limited number of instances.

People like Bharath Sundar and N J Nandini gained major exposure through Jaya-TV's Carnatic Idol program; a few others through participation in Margazhi Mahotsavam.

The Music Academy has a rigorous selection process. Recommendations from gurus, reviews of past performances, evaluation by a panel of selectors all play a part in choosing the candidates that are featured by them in the December Season. Pretty much the same procedure is followed by all the major sabhas.

When you consider the 15-day long December program at the Music Academy, there are exactly 15 slots at the junior (12 noon) slot and so competiton is tough. Given that you now have 3 winners of the Carnatic Idol program, they have chosen to stick with Idol I rather than Idol II or III this year.

Junior artists have to learn how to market themselves and keep themselves in the public eye. Sabhas in Tambaram, Pozhichalur, Pammal, Selaiyur, Chromepet, Villivakkam and Perambur give them that chance. Whether they can move up from these suburban sabhas to Mylapore-based ones such as Kapali, GK Foundation, Naada Inbam, Nadopasana, etc., depends on their horoscope. From then, the move to Narada Gana Sabha and Music Academy and prime slots there is determined by the listener's horrorscope! Because, by that time, these young talents have settled on a Unique Selling Proposition to appeal to the Mylapore mamas and mamis, be it abhangs, folk songs from Bengal, Arabic maqams or the deep grunts of a sperm whale.

Management of big sabhas usually have the attitude that when they want your opinion, they will give it to you. So it is quite doubtful that they take advice from anyone on what artists to feature. However, several good performances at the smaller sabhas may impress the selectors who may choose to seature such an an artist at their big-name sabha.

KNV1955
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by KNV1955 »

Harimu says "Junior artists have to learn how to market themselves and keep themselves in the public eye.".
I don't understand what this marketing business is all about. A lady artist felt extremely bad when she was told that she should know to market herself. Talent is not sufficient. Thank God there are some good souls like Jaya Balkrishnan of Nada Inbam; Nadopasana Srinivasan; Sarvani Sabha these young first generation & less affluent talented artists without any marketing get opportunities to perform at the Mecca of CM (read Chennai)
Harimu says "it is quite doubtful that they take advice from anyone on what artists to feature"
I agree.No sabha secretary consults the members of 50 Club! But quietly this 50 Club members air their views here & there. Can vouch invitation to Music Academy for some of the artists originated from these club members!! Of Course Guru also plays a big role.
For all the noise made not much happens after the season. I suggested to Nada Inbam to hold Rama Navami/Krishna Jayanthi/Navarathri/Thematic series. Last year Krishna Jayanthi (3 concerts) /Navarathri(9 days)/Thematic (5 Days) were held with moderate attendance. But difficult to sustain for different reasons.

rajeshnat
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by rajeshnat »

KNV
Based on my many years of listening I see these halls sastri hall, ragasudha , ps high school make a real difference to careers of musicians . For every concert arranged in that sabha, you see nadopasana srinivasan, asthika samAjam narasimhan, Safe ramabadran, and when you attend these concerts you do know where the artist will likely perform next.

Harimau
Great points. Yes Music academy has its own selection process . The NGS Main till 2007 or 2008 used to open their main halls too for morning and afternoon concerts also. But they have given up that practice . I have heard few concerts where there was quite a crowd much more than NGS mini but may be 300 to 400 in NGS enjoying ,that is out.

To an extent I like MFAC and Parthasarathi swami sabha selection process , they take their time to evaluate and really give weightage even to non popular artists. Unfortunately during december season , I dont know why nadopasana does not conduct concerts in PS high school , infact that school is never thrown open. With halls being very scarce and very unlikely we will not have any more halls, sponsors who conduct festivals in tier II sabhas should be more encouraged. That way the less marketed sabhas like one in annanagar music club, pozhichalur,chromepet , kalakruthi,shanmughapriya and sreeranjani trust (that conducts in swamy's hall,this year we did not have both) will slowly get bigger.

Rsachi
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by Rsachi »

Can rasikas.org collect and disseminate details of worthy Carnatic sabhas/promotional efforts which offer section 80G IT exemption benefits, since many rasikas may like to channel contributions there?

kunthalavarali
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by kunthalavarali »

AIR and Podhigai as well as Nadha Neerajanam (SVBC) are doing fine service to CM quietly. The Saturday concerts (3.05 to 4.35 pm) of Podhigai and the daily SVBC concerts (6 to 7.30pm) before audience is impressive. The efforts by these two channels need publicity. Surely the not so popular artistes and upcoming artistes will benefit from such a move.
In the past AIR was the torch bearer for spotting talents. One may remember how popular radio week and radio sangeetha sammelanam were. A strong revival by AIR/DD can go a long way in identifying and nurturing real talent.

harimau
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by harimau »

kunthalavarali wrote:AIR and Podhigai as well as Nadha Neerajanam (SVBC) are doing fine service to CM quietly. The Saturday concerts (3.05 to 4.35 pm) of Podhigai and the daily SVBC concerts (6 to 7.30pm) before audience is impressive. The efforts by these two channels need publicity. Surely the not so popular artistes and upcoming artistes will benefit from such a move.
In the past AIR was the torch bearer for spotting talents. One may remember how popular radio week and radio sangeetha sammelanam were. A strong revival by AIR/DD can go a long way in identifying and nurturing real talent.
Nada Neerajanam on SVBC used to require an AIR grade of A to feature an artist. It has been reduced to two artists can perform together if they both have a grade of B High. You may need to dilute it further if "upcoming talents" are to be featured.

AIR also requires a grade of A for the "Isai Saaral" program.

harimau
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by harimau »

KNV1955 wrote:
Harimu says "Junior artists have to learn how to market themselves and keep themselves in the public eye.".
I don't understand what this marketing business is all about. A lady artist felt extremely bad when she was told that she should know to market herself. Talent is not sufficient. Thank God there are some good souls like Jaya Balkrishnan of Nada Inbam; Nadopasana Srinivasan; Sarvani Sabha these young first generation & less affluent talented artists without any marketing get opportunities to perform at the Mecca of CM (read Chennai)
Marketing means making your availability/presence known to sabha secretaries by constantly reminding them that you exist.

In many instances, Nada Inbam not excepted, it is this kind of persistence that pays off.

Marketing was taken to the next level when the artists started printing invitation cards listing their program dates and handing it out to the public as well as to secretaries of other sabhas.

The newest level is where I get SMSes about particular artist's performances on my cell phone.

The acme of marketing is where an advertisement is taken, in color and with a photo, in The Hindu's arts & entertainment listings. I recently noticed an ad by Sri Krishna Gana Sabha which listed several programs for the day but it was preceded by a color ad mentioning just one artist's program. I guess somebody paid for that ad and somehow I am cynical enough to think that it was not the sabha!

By the way, analysis of programs at Nadopasana, Nada Inbam or any other sabha will show that certain artists are favored and certain artists are not featured. It is no different at SPSS or Narada Gana Sabha.

Somebody can take the last several years of concert listings (out of a website such as the Calendar at rasikas.org) or patiently key in the data from the December Season guide compiled by S. Kannan and see for himself what these biases are.

Talent has nothing to do with it, even at Nadopasana or Nada Inbam or Narada Gana Sabha. By the way, very few sabhas refuse a donation from the artist, Music Academy being one exception. Thus, one can say that junior artists are buying their way into concert opportunities. Let these people claim they are not/have not taken money and I will show you artists who can prove the contrary.

Not only that, they are subsidizing those who need subsidies the least.

Recently, a TV station asked for a contribution of Rs 100,000 (One lakh) for a slot in their Madrasil Five Rivers program. I find it hard to believe that Aruna Sayeeram, Sudha Raghunathan, etc., are paying that kind of money for TV exposure. In fact, they will laugh at any TV station that even suggests that they donate just one rupee!

The music field is nothing but a gutter, in the opinion of most musicians and gurus. Neither the musicians nor the sabha secretaries come out smelling of roses if you know the inside stories.

PS. At least Hamsadhwani makes no bones about the fact that those who participate in their NRI Festival pay to perform there. Others merely hide behind weasel words.

Rsachi
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by Rsachi »

Harimau,
'Anniyan' has a scene showing a Sabha secretary in action.
'Sabhapathikku vere daivam'...

rajeshnat
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by rajeshnat »

Harimau
I have also heard thru grapevine about the chennaiyil 5 rivers episode- now you have confirmed . Every sabha will have a soft corner for few artists, I think that is always there, it is inevitable as liking of certain artists is inevitable. I can name for every sabha who that soft corner artist(S) would be . But what is also important is more than the soft corner, we also need really good sabha patrons where musicians with merit without connections are also recognized. Very few sabhas in chennai indeed do that. One of my distant relative who is 80+ ,who follows all of this in the last 30 to 40 years has a very good opinion about Late KS Venkataraman(MFAC) and I also have great opinion about Nadopasana Srinivasan , and I see them really rotating musicians. But what bothers me is some sabha patrons are getting very old and bit senile too, I guess despite their good intentions they would not be recalling all the non popular- quality stars(That is where you need sustained MARKETING for sure).

I always prefer sabha patrons making decision with their judgement vs sabha concert sponsors /agencies making decisions as they made a lumpsum commercial contribution.

I guess we need atleast 10 more sabhas in chennai to sustain the explosive count of musicians in action, and definitely 2 more ragasudhas which will have all round music, where season is just incidental.

priyaram78
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by priyaram78 »

I have been attending carnatic music concerts in sabhas in chennai, mumbai and delhi. Listening to the rendition of so many carnatic musicians perform Live in sabhas, right from school days I have experienced bliss, thanks to all the musicians..ignorance (of the inside stories ) is bliss. Lets hope for the best for all musicians, sabhas and rasikas.....carnatic music is bliss !

arasi
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by arasi »

Rajesh,
Agreed. Considering the number of young artistes who are coming up--yes.
Now, the question is: how are you going to rope in the number of listeners (they better be in large numbers--every artiste needs more than a handful of rasikAs)? The geriatric set--senile or otherwise are always there. How is it going to be in ten years? You folks will be there to represent the elder set in thirty years. Until then? And afterwards?

The question is: how many among the young are going to be in the audience? Yes, there are many performers among the young. Agreed. And among listeners?
Last night, I saw part of Rahman's extravaganza on Jaya TV, a Pongal special.

My response was mixed. I was impressed--by the set, production and lighting (could have been any rock concert in a western city).

However, just when I was taken in by the first line of a sweet sounding song, the applauding and gyrating among the audience engulfed the song and this happened time and again. I thought Rahaman was very impressive--with his playing the accordion and with his singing too. He's one cool dude, I gather. However, the young audience, a well-behaved one--how farther away are they from attending a CM concert, or a classical dance program?

I repeat, it was an interesting program but how many from that audience come to a CM concert? I ask this because nearly half of the population of the youth of Chennai was seen there!

"Come in large numbers!" used to be a recurring line in old fashioned ads for an event. Are we going to see crowds at all in CM concerts ? Here, let's leave out a few stars and the season (which was a pain with near-stampedes). How about the burgeoning young ones? How responsive will the listeners be and how often will they frequent CM concerts?

Harimau,
It depresses me to hear about all the shenanigans which seem to be part of the CM scene. A scenario akin to that of old Hollywood :(

kunthalavarali
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by kunthalavarali »

Arasi,
One way I think, is to introduce classical music in schools. Many have said this but the response seems to be poor. How come the western schools in both Europe and North America have music in their curricula? Are their historical reasons?
Last edited by kunthalavarali on 17 Jan 2013, 17:04, edited 1 time in total.

venkatakailasam
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by venkatakailasam »

Away from music...This what TMK posted in FB today..

" I think it was 1995 when Ravikiran, Vijay Siva and I decided that post the music season we must organise a musicians cricket match. That year we played at P.S. High school grounds with V. Ramanarayan as one of the umpires. This year was the 18th year and we played our matches yesterday with about 40 plus musicians participating. It was wonderful to see everyone enjoy themselves and really come together. Thank you Poongulam Subramaniam, VK Manimaran and K N Shashikiran and many others for organising it this year...."

Nick H
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by Nick H »

kunthalavarali wrote:Arasi,
One way I think, is to introduce classical music in schools. Many have said this but the response seems to be poor. How come the western schools in both Europe and North America have music in their curricula? Are their historical reasons?
I am at least a whole generation away from knowing much about what children do in UK schools, but I think that music has, for a long time, been regarded as an extra, and one that has a lot of trouble getting any funding. Sport is more popular. It has always seemed to me that music is the better team builder, quite apart from its own inherent joys and bliss.

Over and above all that, it is one thing to have music on the curriculum, and it is another, entirely different, thing, for children to enjoy and want to take part in the classical side of it. Without a desire on the part of the youngster, enforced tuition does nothing. How many generations of English-language educated children have the schools put off English-language literature?

Rsachi
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by Rsachi »

I think the vast majority of children would love to learn music if it is taught the fun way.
Last edited by Rsachi on 18 Jan 2013, 06:23, edited 1 time in total.

arvind.brahmakal
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by arvind.brahmakal »

Yes, very candid views expressed by TMK.

Accessibility can play a big influential role. Children and youth get hooked to video games, TV, cinemas because of the ease of access - physical and digital. With multiple avenues competing for "share of mindspace", CM formats and access probably need to come right up in the "google" search. Who knows...mall concerts lol

vasanthakokilam
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nick H wrote: I think that music has, for a long time, been regarded as an extra, and one that has a lot of trouble getting any funding. Sport is more popular. It has always seemed to me that music is the better team builder, quite apart from its own inherent joys and bliss.
Not exactly applicable to CM, but in the U.S. if a music major wants a stable job, the best is to be a music teacher at a high school with a good (american) football team. Given the popularity of that sport and the associated marching band program, there is usually no trouble getting funding for the marching band. It is interesting you mention the team building aspects of music. Team work and leadership aspects of that program is a lasting benefit for the kids.

priyaram78
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by priyaram78 »

Arasi Madam, just a thought......all the playback singers at this show who are now singing for A.R. Rahman, were once upon a time carnatic singers............yes, they have their reasons to shift to film music, but then how can we expect half the population of youth of Chennai to frequent Carnatic Music concerts ?

Rsachi
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by Rsachi »

arasi wrote: However, just when I was taken in by the first line of a sweet sounding song, the applauding and gyrating among the audience engulfed the song and this happened time and again. I thought Rahaman was very impressive--with his playing the accordion and with his singing too. He's one cool dude, I gather. However, the young audience, a well-behaved one--how farther away are they from attending a CM concert, or a classical dance program?

I repeat, it was an interesting program but how many from that audience come to a CM concert? I ask this because nearly half of the population of the youth of Chennai was seen there!
  • 1.interesting program.
    2. Rahman effect (known to be more important than Raman effect).
    3. Youth want fun.
    4. Performers trained classically so CAN produce good music.
    5. Classical music too serious for head-bangers.
    6. We put off youngsters with our snooty 'holier than thou, ye who can't tell Kalyani from Kambhoji' attitude.
    7. We buy plastic malli flowers when we can't or don't know where to get the real malli flowers.

harimau
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by harimau »

rajeshnat wrote:
Harimau

Every sabha will have a soft corner for few artists, I think that is always there, it is inevitable as liking of certain artists is inevitable. I can name for every sabha who that soft corner artist(S) would be . But what is also important is more than the soft corner, we also need really good sabha patrons where musicians with merit without connections are also recognized. Very few sabhas in chennai indeed do that. One of my distant relative who is 80+ ,who follows all of this in the last 30 to 40 years has a very good opinion about Late KS Venkataraman(MFAC) and I also have great opinion about Nadopasana Srinivasan , and I see them really rotating musicians.
It is not a soft corner for a few artists but outright determination to promote only certain artists.

Smt Punya Srinivas, a vainika, has been awarded the Bismillah Khan Yuva Puraskar this year.

She had zero -- read that again -- zero concerts this Season if S. Kannan's compilation of concerts is to be believed. I have heard her only in a 30 or 45-minute slot during the veena festivals.

Are we the rasikas going to show up at the doorsteps of any number of the alternate sabhas and demand that Punya Srinivas be featured? Can you guess what the reaction would be?

You perhaps can pay about Rs 15,000 towards hall rental, advertising costs and artists' remuneration and the organizer may condescend to list it under his sabha's name. Otherwise, you can choose a name such as Carnatic Connoisseurs or Music Maniacs and do the whole thing under that banner.

The Veena Festivals in September/October feature nearly 60 vainikas. Do you hear them anywhere at any other time? Nadopasana's preference is for a couple of vainikas and Naada Inbam's is for a different two or three. The rest of the sabhas would rather host a keyboard concert than a veena concert. There is a single gottuvadhyam artist dominating the scene. The rest find jobs with AIR to make a living.

No matter that some sabha secretaries exhibit humilty or have a pleasant smile, it merely hides their determination to promote their own agendas. And that is not necessarily finding and promoting talent. The days of altruism are gone for ever.
rajeshnat wrote:
I always prefer sabha patrons making decision with their judgement vs sabha concert sponsors /agencies making decisions as they made a lumpsum commercial contribution.

I guess we need atleast 10 more sabhas in chennai to sustain the explosive count of musicians in action, and definitely 2 more ragasudhas which will have all round music, where season is just incidental.
When you have sponsors, you need to show crowds. So flute, veena and violin solos are all out except for a few select artists. Keyboard is in. That is the deterioration in the tastes of the Mylapore mamas and mamis. I see no reason to blame the next generation that goes to listen to the band Agam.

A few more sabhas isn't going to solve the problem.

You can start a sabha, solicit "upcoming artists" for contributions in return for concerts, and about five years later file for income-tax exemption. At which point, you will find banks and other companies who need to spend money on "social causes" will dribble in a few thousand. After 20 years, you may be able to hold serious festivals with sponsor's money and will be able to feature the next great abhangist.

Aaaaarrrrgh!
Last edited by harimau on 18 Jan 2013, 13:40, edited 2 times in total.

srikant1987
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by srikant1987 »

harimau wrote:Nadopasana's preference is for a couple of vainikas and Naada Inbam's is for a different two or three. ... So flute, veena and violin solos are all out except for a few select artists. Keyboard is in.
TMK has stressed that not all not-so-popular / in-70s-and-80s artistes are awesome -- or even really serious. It can also be added that not all vaiNikas are ubermusicians. It should also be added that not all musicians whose pin codes don't begin with 600 are also superclassical.

There's no denying it will be wonderful if audience's discerning ability undergoes a revolution. Especially given how disastrous the tastes "half-knowledge" results in are. It certainly is half-knowledge to indiscriminately brand 70-pluses as awesome, one-kucheri-a-bluemoons as epitomes of saukhyam, etc.

sureshvv
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by sureshvv »

@harimau: The "problem/fact-of-life" is instrumental concerts are not popular/do not draw crowds in Chennai. May be Bangalore should become the hub of Instrumental concerts and have a season in the summer.

@srikant: Too many double negatives... My head is spinning :-)
Last edited by sureshvv on 18 Jan 2013, 11:50, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by Nick H »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Not exactly applicable to CM, but in the U.S. if a music major wants a stable job, the best is to be a music teacher at a high school with a good (american) football team. Given the popularity of that sport and the associated marching band program, there is usually no trouble getting funding for the marching band. It is interesting you mention the team building aspects of music. Team work and leadership aspects of that program is a lasting benefit for the kids.
Thanks. I'm always glad to hear of [almost] any sort of music thriving :)

sureshvv
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by sureshvv »

A couple scenes from Mr. Holland's Opus come to mind.

sureshvv
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by sureshvv »

I attended a few concerts from Veena festival and found that the level of mastery required was way too high and only the very top performers (a small fraction of the total performing) could go a whole concert without making obvious slip ups.

harimau
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by harimau »

sureshvv wrote:I attended a few concerts from Veena festival and found that the level of mastery required was way too high and only the very top performers (a small fraction of the total performing) could go a whole concert without making obvious slip ups.
Do you mean to say that those vainikas who are featured in your favorite non-mainstream sabhas have no slip ups?

Forget veena. How many flutists are featured in these sabhas other than N. Ramani? How many violinists from different banis/gurus are featured? Is that an even distribution?

Even taking vocal music, Pantula Rama to my knowledge has not performed under the Nada Inbam banner but has under Nadopasana, Kapali and SAFE. Clearly the vyavaharam in her music has appeal for certain folks but not for others. This results in her being featured or excluded. You can't argue that this isn't a personal bias. After all, in her first performance in the senior slot at the Academy, she won the concert for the best concert and has consistently retained her slot at the Academy.

As one sabha secretary put it, 7 of them decide who will be the next superstars of Carnatic music. You can figure out who these saptharishis are. They are the sabhas with big auditoria of their own.

As someone else put it, it is their porch, their deck of cards and they decide what game they want to play. You the audience can play accordingly but can't demand that they should play gin rummy if a contract bridge game is going on.

anonymityatlast
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by anonymityatlast »

How many violinists from different banis/gurus are featured? Is that an even distribution? ... Pantula Rama to my knowledge has not performed under the Nada Inbam banner ... Clearly the vyavaharam in her music has appeal for certain folks but not for others.
As long as sabha has ITS OWN musical tastes, and promotes artistes based on them, it is still being honest to music.

sureshvv
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by sureshvv »

harimau wrote: Do you mean to say that those vainikas who are featured in your favorite non-mainstream sabhas have no slip ups?
Yes. Unfortunately there are less than you can count on one hand those who can play an entire concert without making the audience grimace in discomfort.
As someone else put it, it is their porch, their deck of cards and they decide what game they want to play. You the audience can play accordingly but can't demand that they should play gin rummy if a contract bridge game is going on.
Quite succinctly put. If you have the wherewithal you can open the gin rummy lounge :-)

The Late Sri SVK of Raga Sudha used to say that he didn't prefer the "Sabha" model of functioning because he didn't want to pander to the arbitrary taste of its members which many times had no basis in musicality.

anonymityatlast
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by anonymityatlast »

The Late Sri SVK of Raga Sudha used to say that he didn't prefer the "Sabha" model of functioning because he didn't want to pander to the arbitrary taste of its members which many times had no basis in musicality.
But seeing as Naada Inbam itself is a sabha, is "arbitrary taste which many times has no basis in musicality" still a necessary part of "sabha model"? ;)

Indeed, his view of 'honesty to music' seems to quite match what I said -- I also thought I'd stress "musical" in my previous post. I highlighted "its own", to mean that it's allowed to be different from Harimau's taste, so long as there is a musical basis as to why it is so. ;)

sureshvv
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by sureshvv »

Naada Inbam is not a Sabha in the strict sense as it does not have subscribing members. At least for that definition of Sabha.

And I agree with your earlier observation that you can be honest to music without having Pantula Rama sing there! :-)

Also upon jogging my memory I realize that the phrase "which many times had no basis in musicality" is my extrapolation and not part of the original quote.

rajeshnat
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by rajeshnat »

harimau wrote: A few more sabhas isn't going to solve the problem.
Harimau,
More sabhas will surely solve quite a few problems. Right now I see in the last few days at rAgasudha with different banners , you are having exclusive violin solo concerts which itself a great news . Ragasudha in chennai existed only from 1990's .Similiarly if you have more sabhas coming up (that too if it becomes fairly perennial ones like nAdainbam and to an extent like nadopasana),there is a greater chance for rare quality musicians without marketing to hit the halls and perform. Ofcourse how much will instrument concerts get its share is very sub-judice , but still with more sabhas there is always a better chance.

rajeshnat
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by rajeshnat »

harimau wrote: No matter that some sabha secretaries exhibit humilty or have a pleasant smile, it merely hides their determination to promote their own agendas. And that is not necessarily finding and promoting talent. The days of altruism are gone for ever.
My point is the altruism to a considerable extent exists with few sabha patrons even today , which you have stated it is not . Now that you have stated "The days of altruism are gone for ever", may I know when it was existent before . I just would like to know.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by vasanthakokilam »

As someone else put it, it is their porch, their deck of cards and they decide what game they want to play. You the audience can play accordingly but can't demand that they should play gin rummy if a contract bridge game is going on.
Other choice is to get on the bridge game yourself and later preach to them the merits of gin rummy and see if they will budge once in a while, at least for a variation You only need to convert a few.

harimau
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by harimau »

anonymityatlast wrote: As long as sabha has ITS OWN musical tastes, and promotes artistes based on them, it is still being honest to music.
As long as a musician has his own musical tastes and consistently works to promote those tastes, he is still being honest to music.

Thus is born Carnatic music on the keyboard.

harimau
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by harimau »

sureshvv, rajeshnat and vasanthakokilam ought to find jobs as scriptwriters for Tamil movies.

Just as the hero in the Tamil movies is without flaws, according to these people alternate sabhas have absolutely no bias whatsoever in the selection of artists they feature.

I point out that a vainika such as Smt Punya Srinivas had no concerts this Season in any sabhas and they make sure that they avoid addressing that issue by beating around the bush.

I point out that Nada Inbam's concept of Carnatic music completely excludes vyavaharam despite the possibility that musicality need not be sacrificed at the altar of mathematical intricacy and the excuse is trotted out that Nada Inbam is doing great service even without having Pantula Rama sing there.

By a similar token, Music Academy is doing a great job despite not honoring MDR with the title of Sangeetha Kalanidhi or precisely because they did not accord him that title.

The point is that Punya Srinivas kicked every single sabha in Chennai in its teeth by getting the Ustad Bismillah Khan Yuva Puraskar award.

The other point is that Pantula Rama made it to the top without the patronage of Nada Inbam. In fact, you can pretty much say that about most Andhra musicians.

Add ten more sabhas and you will find that some more of the also-rans of the Carnatic music field will get concert opportunities. They are not going to make it to the top without star value.

Star value is obtained through attracting the Mylapore mamas and mamis who have no demonstrated taste in music. Most musicians performing at alternate sabhas perform there precisely because they have no star value; otherwise they would be filling the auditoria at Music Academy, Krishna Gana Sabha, Mylapore Fine Arts or for corporate sponsors at Rs 2000 a ticket.

You can build comfortable myths about how your hero does not have feet of clay. Those myths do not withstand scrutiny.

sureshvv
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by sureshvv »

harimau wrote: Just as the hero in the Tamil movies is without flaws, according to these people alternate sabhas have absolutely no bias whatsoever in the selection of artists they feature.
You seem to have become the hero of this episode. Everybody has a bias. Rajesh clearly conceded that many posts ago.
I point out that a vainika such as Smt Punya Srinivas had no concerts this Season in any sabhas and they make sure that they avoid addressing that issue by beating around the bush.
As I was beating around the bush before, I found her playing had quite a few slip ups in the concert hall. May be she was having a bad day. I have heard her on the radio and she was very good. She is quite young and has many years ahead of her to get closer to perfection which I am sure she will with the encouragement given by the Yuva puraskar.
I point out that Nada Inbam's concept of Carnatic music completely excludes vyavaharam
Not true! Many kings and queens of vyavaharam have performed there, the late Sri Chingulpet Ranganathan to name just one.
The point is that Punya Srinivas kicked every single sabha in Chennai in its teeth by getting the Ustad Bismillah Khan Yuva Puraskar award.
Had you looked carefully, you would have found that they were all dentures. They lost their teeth ages ago.
The other point is that Pantula Rama made it to the top without the patronage of Nada Inbam. In fact, you can pretty much say that about most Andhra musicians.
So? She had SAFE and Nadopasana and Hamsdadvani and Hamsavinodini and many others.

You can build comfortable myths about how your hero does not have feet of clay.
The clay I find is at the other extreme engendering conspiracy theories where there are none.
Last edited by sureshvv on 20 Jan 2013, 11:17, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by sureshvv »

harimau wrote:
Thus is born Carnatic music on the keyboard.
Sometimes when I catch a concert on the radio while it is in progress like a couple of days ago, I can't tell if it is mandolin or veena until the announcement at the end. And that does not take away any of the enjoyment. If the keyboard can do the same, more power to it.

anonymityatlast
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by anonymityatlast »

As long as a musician has his own musical tastes and consistently works to promote those tastes, he is still being honest to music.

Thus is born Carnatic music on the keyboard.
Oh yeah? Musicians sometimes sacrifice their own tastes. While organizing concerts isn't cakewalk, musicians' work (typically) needs much, much, much more time. So musicians sometimes need to find ways to make money out of it, even if they sing/play something they themselves find uninteresting. And they are being dishonest to music. But that is not "the supreme evil"; there are many shades of gray.

I don't understand why you have a grudge for the keyboard you don't even have for saxophone! A keyboard at least has that pitch-bender thing.

arasi
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by arasi »

Just a thought...we converge in our tastes at times, and we don't at other times. This is well understood. However, when we don't, why aren't we in tune with the tolerance level in us?

We also live in a world of communication and music is easily available for us to listen to and we don't need to be in the dark about the abilities of any artiste we have heard five years ago and didn't particularly care for.

A friend says: listen to X now. I'm sure you will like her the way she's singing these days. We surely can, even without taking the trouble of going to a concert hall..

If we think we don't care about an instrument or think that it's not for CM, we can listen to Y who really produces good music on it and then make up our minds about him. Why shut all the windows to new influences in the music we love, purely on the basis of our reluctance to accept anything new?

Let's go back a bit and recollect that MMI the master, in his days had his vehement critics. Later came Mandolin Srinivas, and some said 'he sounds good, but why play a mandolin?'. Others simply won't go to his concert (I know of some who did the same when it came to MMI!).

To me, a home with a treasured old chest of classical gems can also have its windows open so that some fresh air can enter the treasured house--with some luck, bringing in a few new future treasures.

On the one hand, we let the media conjure up dozens of talent programs for the young in all genres of music, but would refuse to listen to anything other than what we deem chaste music--door closed...

Personally, I'm not drawn to a key board concert. Yet, when I first heard one, and then one more, I was surprised by the emotive quality in it. It happened because the young man was a forumite and I'm keen on encouraging forumites/young talents who are our future.
Satya did appeal to me a lot!
Last edited by arasi on 23 Jan 2013, 09:02, edited 1 time in total.

Rsachi
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by Rsachi »

Arasi,
Spoken like a true rasika.

varsha
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by varsha »

+2
Would like to listen to a good keyboard player
Instead of a poor violin or a veena player

vasanthakokilam
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Re: TM Krishna's take: Beyond the Stars

Post by vasanthakokilam »

'Vocal vs Instrumental' posts moved to http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20806

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