While many of our composers and some singers were certainly spiritual gnani's and liberated souls, a vast majority of artistes and rasika's were probably not. A recent article in 'The HINDU' gently protesting against the excessive indulgence in expensive clothes and jewelry by performers, makes the point that pursuit of Carnatic music, loosely paraphrased, is for the purpose of spiritual liberation. Here is the link:
http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/sobe ... e#comments
While she makes some valid points, it can be easily construed that she is asking everybody not only to aspire to be a Thyagaraja or Dikshitar spiritually but also, to immediately look the part.
For example, see below:
quote:
Our classical music forms are uniquely about reflection and self-focus, they can liberate us from our ordinary, everyday small realms of identity and consciousness, with its material obsessions and transport us into larger, undivided, and joyful vistas of creative existence and consciousness.
unquote
While one can not in general argue against the universal validity of the above statement, one wonders if the purpose of our music is primarily to liberate, as opposed to entertain or edify. Is that how the rasikas themselves view music? One may remember that cutcheries themselves were historically nothing but the Raja's court which is the center of temporal, not spiritual, life. Of course, temples were and are venues where ordinary people could easily listen to music. But then flowers, fragrances, expensive clothes and jewelry are as much part of temple worship too.
So one is not very clear if the writer's points about music as mukti marga, while true in general, are not unduly grandiose, especially in the context of the sartorial choices of the artistes.
I wonder if one can not make the same point more simply by saying that garish display of wealth or self-aggrandizement in terms of expensive sarees or jewelry, make-up etc are aesthetically not pleasing, i.e., virasa, and are perhaps a breach of social etiquette. I feel she could have effectively pressed into service a traditionalist argument against 'adambaram' than this whole sophistry about mukti marga and bhakti marga.
What do people think? I am truly puzzled.
Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
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mohan
- Posts: 2808
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation? ?
See the discussion at http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20712
Mods - can perhaps merge the above post into that thread.
Mods - can perhaps merge the above post into that thread.
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prabuddha
- Posts: 63
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 06:08
Re: Sober dress for soulful music?
I don't see by what logic my post was merged into a pre existing thread. My post was a response to a recent article in 'The HINDU' giving a particular point of view on the purpose and position of CM in our culture. It was not just about sartorial preferences.
I therefore think this merger decision was ill advised and did violence to the intent of my post.
I therefore think this merger decision was ill advised and did violence to the intent of my post.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Makes sense prabuddha. Your focus is different from the other thread. We will leave the above two posts here as a natural link to the other thread.
Please continue.
Please continue.
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Rsachi
- Posts: 5039
- Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Thanks to Prabuddha, I have at last penned some thoughts going on in my head for some time.
Please read it:
http://rsachi.blogspot.com/2013/02/sita ... r-art.html
I would be most curious to hear your thoughts and opinions, as I think we have so many great rasikas in this forum!
Ciao,
Sachi R
Please read it:
http://rsachi.blogspot.com/2013/02/sita ... r-art.html
I would be most curious to hear your thoughts and opinions, as I think we have so many great rasikas in this forum!
Ciao,
Sachi R
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priyaram78
- Posts: 393
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:57
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Nice informative blog. Especially posts under music category. learnt more about Veena and Sri Dakshinamoorthy. Need more time to read all the posts. Thanks.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
This question does not have enough particulars for the purpose of providing an answer that would satisfy all readers.
First, one needs to know
Whether the answer is required by a person for his individual need,
and if so, whether he is a singer or a listener.
Whether it is a discussion on the policy that is to be followed by the general
public including the musician, the listener, and the organizers.
Lacking such precision, a lot of arguments, pleasant and unpleasant, have been posted in many different threads in our forum.
In absence of the above details I have prepared some remarks which might clear some of the fog surrounding this subject.
CM has several shades of meanings and it might mean different things to different persons depending on their values, experiences and way of life. There is no single standard meaning for the term.
The music which has been existing for generations in the southern region of India has come to be generally termed as CM. When it was done and who had done it, we do not know. It appears that longtime ago the term ‘music’ was used without any such attribute. It will be nice some one can throw some light on this.
Literally speaking, it should mean the music originating from Karnataka area. It is known in many households that the term ‘karnatakam’ is known for the orthodox attitude that is satisfied with what has been handled over to them by their elders. Possibly the people of Karnataka were highly orthodox and traditional unchangeable in their views.
It might be erroneous to conclude that CM survived only because of court patronage. In fact its association with temple rituals have enabled it to survive and develop . For most of the temple rituals, classical music in nadaswarm and dance were a must, just as recitals of vedas were. Most of the kingly courts honoured the musicians by arranging their concerts.
Lacking evidence, it might be difficult to pinpoint what the music was before the trinity and how it was performed. Along with the ragas and talas, ‘Pann’ and ‘chandams’ of the Tamil devotional songs like Thevaram and Truppugazh existed. Whether there were specific differences between the Raga music and Pann music we do not have any physical evidence. It appears that both were based on the same principles viz. Moorchana Pandhati and samvad.
In this forum, what is now a days discussed about CM, is, whether it is lost, whether it will survive, whether it is better than before or worse than before etc. They are all based on the pattern of CM that exists today which was set up by the previous generation of music stalwarts. This brand is unique in its approach because it projects the competitive aspects of a duets (vocal - violin, vocal -mridangam, violin -mridangam, mridangam –ghatam) and ‘thukkadas’ (Padam Javali, thillana, bhajan, abhang etc.). In absence of classification of the different stages of evolution of CM concerts since the Trinity days, each person, when he comments about CM, might mean a different thing. If we do not understand this aspect while discussing this topic, arguments and counter arguments will be made just as in the case of so many threads we have already on this subject. .
It appears that after the arrival of the Trinity, their music and concert patterns overwhelmed the entire society with the result all the other patterns of rendering got eclipsed. Saint Thagaraja had a large number of disciples who were very devoted and who had been thoroughly trained on the correct values of music and its exposition as revealed to him by the divine angels. The general public must have been impressed by the fact that he had divine visions, that he could sacrifice anything for the sake of his Ishta Devatha and that his compositions were pure divine inspirations, that he could gain great spiritual heights through music alone, without the usual “yama,niyama, asana’ etc. The next generation carried on the same tradition and CM was only for spiritual attainment.
We learn a lot about the generation next through the literature on Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer and others. Concerts were being held in public places temples and even the houses of patrons, but no fees were charged from the public. When some organizer collected money for the concert of Maha Vadyanatha Iyer cancelled the concert and sang a free concert in another place. The main items were the Alapanai and Pallavi. There were challenges from the public the performer had to take up the challenge to prove himself. The audience must have been very knowledgeable. The kritis had no specific place in the concert . Even in the 1950s I have heard some very senior musicians saying that musicians were afraid to touch the kritis of saints for fear of disrespecting them.
The next generation had arranged concerts with fees for the entrance as well as the artist. When Tirukkodikkaval Krishna Iyer entered the scene his mastery of the music as well as the violin, he became so popular that the public wanted to hear him. But violin solos were simply not done. Violin had been introduced only as an accompanying instrument. Even though laya vidwans like Manpoodia Pillai and Dakshinamurthy Pillai were in the scene the duet aspect never caught up as an integral part of the concert. Occasionally duets were performed with some artists, but most preferred subdued accompaniments.
The next generation we all know. Ariyakkudi and PMI brought about various changes to the concert pattern and it became absorbing entertainment. All sorts of experiments are being undertaken to attract more and more audience. Swara and laya are the dominating force and sahitya has totally lost its impotance.
CM can be a great help for achieving peace and liberation if we follow the advices given by Saint Thyagaraja in his kritis.
Shivadasan
This question does not have enough particulars for the purpose of providing an answer that would satisfy all readers.
First, one needs to know
Whether the answer is required by a person for his individual need,
and if so, whether he is a singer or a listener.
Whether it is a discussion on the policy that is to be followed by the general
public including the musician, the listener, and the organizers.
Lacking such precision, a lot of arguments, pleasant and unpleasant, have been posted in many different threads in our forum.
In absence of the above details I have prepared some remarks which might clear some of the fog surrounding this subject.
CM has several shades of meanings and it might mean different things to different persons depending on their values, experiences and way of life. There is no single standard meaning for the term.
The music which has been existing for generations in the southern region of India has come to be generally termed as CM. When it was done and who had done it, we do not know. It appears that longtime ago the term ‘music’ was used without any such attribute. It will be nice some one can throw some light on this.
Literally speaking, it should mean the music originating from Karnataka area. It is known in many households that the term ‘karnatakam’ is known for the orthodox attitude that is satisfied with what has been handled over to them by their elders. Possibly the people of Karnataka were highly orthodox and traditional unchangeable in their views.
It might be erroneous to conclude that CM survived only because of court patronage. In fact its association with temple rituals have enabled it to survive and develop . For most of the temple rituals, classical music in nadaswarm and dance were a must, just as recitals of vedas were. Most of the kingly courts honoured the musicians by arranging their concerts.
Lacking evidence, it might be difficult to pinpoint what the music was before the trinity and how it was performed. Along with the ragas and talas, ‘Pann’ and ‘chandams’ of the Tamil devotional songs like Thevaram and Truppugazh existed. Whether there were specific differences between the Raga music and Pann music we do not have any physical evidence. It appears that both were based on the same principles viz. Moorchana Pandhati and samvad.
In this forum, what is now a days discussed about CM, is, whether it is lost, whether it will survive, whether it is better than before or worse than before etc. They are all based on the pattern of CM that exists today which was set up by the previous generation of music stalwarts. This brand is unique in its approach because it projects the competitive aspects of a duets (vocal - violin, vocal -mridangam, violin -mridangam, mridangam –ghatam) and ‘thukkadas’ (Padam Javali, thillana, bhajan, abhang etc.). In absence of classification of the different stages of evolution of CM concerts since the Trinity days, each person, when he comments about CM, might mean a different thing. If we do not understand this aspect while discussing this topic, arguments and counter arguments will be made just as in the case of so many threads we have already on this subject. .
It appears that after the arrival of the Trinity, their music and concert patterns overwhelmed the entire society with the result all the other patterns of rendering got eclipsed. Saint Thagaraja had a large number of disciples who were very devoted and who had been thoroughly trained on the correct values of music and its exposition as revealed to him by the divine angels. The general public must have been impressed by the fact that he had divine visions, that he could sacrifice anything for the sake of his Ishta Devatha and that his compositions were pure divine inspirations, that he could gain great spiritual heights through music alone, without the usual “yama,niyama, asana’ etc. The next generation carried on the same tradition and CM was only for spiritual attainment.
We learn a lot about the generation next through the literature on Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer and others. Concerts were being held in public places temples and even the houses of patrons, but no fees were charged from the public. When some organizer collected money for the concert of Maha Vadyanatha Iyer cancelled the concert and sang a free concert in another place. The main items were the Alapanai and Pallavi. There were challenges from the public the performer had to take up the challenge to prove himself. The audience must have been very knowledgeable. The kritis had no specific place in the concert . Even in the 1950s I have heard some very senior musicians saying that musicians were afraid to touch the kritis of saints for fear of disrespecting them.
The next generation had arranged concerts with fees for the entrance as well as the artist. When Tirukkodikkaval Krishna Iyer entered the scene his mastery of the music as well as the violin, he became so popular that the public wanted to hear him. But violin solos were simply not done. Violin had been introduced only as an accompanying instrument. Even though laya vidwans like Manpoodia Pillai and Dakshinamurthy Pillai were in the scene the duet aspect never caught up as an integral part of the concert. Occasionally duets were performed with some artists, but most preferred subdued accompaniments.
The next generation we all know. Ariyakkudi and PMI brought about various changes to the concert pattern and it became absorbing entertainment. All sorts of experiments are being undertaken to attract more and more audience. Swara and laya are the dominating force and sahitya has totally lost its impotance.
CM can be a great help for achieving peace and liberation if we follow the advices given by Saint Thyagaraja in his kritis.
Shivadasan
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prabuddha
- Posts: 63
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 06:08
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Thanks, Vasanthakokilam. R Sachi makes good points.
My own response to reading the Hindu article was 'hey wait a minute'. I thought all that mukti and bhakti as aim of CM was somewhat grandiose. I remember my own grandparents and their many siblings most of whom lived in and around Kumbakonam between 1920's and 1960's. Primarily whenever it was a question of one of the 4K's (wedding, temple, bazaar, concert), they took care to dress up properly. Men would wear their pattu, jarigai, turban as well as metal buttons if they were wearing shirt. It may not have been ostentatious but well got up , per the standards of the time and their own affordability, all the same. If a high official like a collector, district officer were to be present, most people of their acquaintance would be turned out in their best. Same was the case with women.
They did not go to a concert if they were looking for God. For that they would pray at home, or do one vratam, visit the family deity at the temple on special occasions, go to a mutt or perform obeisance to a sanyasi or their kulaguru or maybe go to Kasi. All these people I write of were pretty heavily anushthanam bound so much so that you could, going with Vivekananda, call them "Dont touchists" rather than "Vedantists" or "Advaitists". Very few of these people and their peers called themselves seekers after spirituality eventhough many of there were very well comfortable in Sanskrit and in the scripture in its original context. They were not particularly worldly nor were they unambitious in the general sense of the word, but they knew their place in the world and accepted it.
Even though there is such a big difference in time and place between then and now, things have remained the same. People dress up nicely to go to concerts or to go the temples. Of course we all have an unwritten code or etiquette whereby we are supposed to avoid ostentation. But to say that the objective of music is to get mukti and bhakti and therefore everyone must show up at concerts in cotton sarees, seems unduly prescriptive. I daresay such prescriptions are modern, urban and betray a deracinated background.
My own response to reading the Hindu article was 'hey wait a minute'. I thought all that mukti and bhakti as aim of CM was somewhat grandiose. I remember my own grandparents and their many siblings most of whom lived in and around Kumbakonam between 1920's and 1960's. Primarily whenever it was a question of one of the 4K's (wedding, temple, bazaar, concert), they took care to dress up properly. Men would wear their pattu, jarigai, turban as well as metal buttons if they were wearing shirt. It may not have been ostentatious but well got up , per the standards of the time and their own affordability, all the same. If a high official like a collector, district officer were to be present, most people of their acquaintance would be turned out in their best. Same was the case with women.
They did not go to a concert if they were looking for God. For that they would pray at home, or do one vratam, visit the family deity at the temple on special occasions, go to a mutt or perform obeisance to a sanyasi or their kulaguru or maybe go to Kasi. All these people I write of were pretty heavily anushthanam bound so much so that you could, going with Vivekananda, call them "Dont touchists" rather than "Vedantists" or "Advaitists". Very few of these people and their peers called themselves seekers after spirituality eventhough many of there were very well comfortable in Sanskrit and in the scripture in its original context. They were not particularly worldly nor were they unambitious in the general sense of the word, but they knew their place in the world and accepted it.
Even though there is such a big difference in time and place between then and now, things have remained the same. People dress up nicely to go to concerts or to go the temples. Of course we all have an unwritten code or etiquette whereby we are supposed to avoid ostentation. But to say that the objective of music is to get mukti and bhakti and therefore everyone must show up at concerts in cotton sarees, seems unduly prescriptive. I daresay such prescriptions are modern, urban and betray a deracinated background.
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Pratyaksham Bala
- Posts: 4207
- Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
.
"Clothing soulful music in colourful format" that appeared in The Hindu, in response to the article “Sober dress for soulful music?” referred to in post #1:-
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 303356.ece
.
"Clothing soulful music in colourful format" that appeared in The Hindu, in response to the article “Sober dress for soulful music?” referred to in post #1:-
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 303356.ece
.
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rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
PB - great post in response, but I am tempted to say (a la Smt. Dhanammal) - too bad that instead of singing, or listening to music, or (god forbid) talking about the music, we have started to talk about the appearance of the artists?
Anyway, is it "with a rich hallow of well arranged jasmine flowers" as printed in Sri Kalidas' rebuttal, or should it be "with a rich halo of well arranged jasmine flowers"?
Anyway, is it "with a rich hallow of well arranged jasmine flowers" as printed in Sri Kalidas' rebuttal, or should it be "with a rich halo of well arranged jasmine flowers"?
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sureshvv
- Posts: 5542
- Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
May be he meant the "hallowed halo" 
Great article by Sri. Kalidas.
Great article by Sri. Kalidas.-
Ranganayaki
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Spirituality and the search for moksha are completely personal and no amount of prescription or description of Carnatic music as primarily spiritual can make an artiste a spiritual seeker. I would say that CM has spiritual, religious, wordly and abstract content and when an artiste has a spiritual bent of mind, any of these can vehicle him to a higher state.
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Ranganayaki
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Glad to see the rebuttal article, because I don't think I've ever seen M.S. and M.L.V in anything but silk. I think if we rasikas were truly spiritual as we claim the music is expected to be, we would see beauty in the colors and the flowers, and not make harsh judgements on the spirituality and worth of the artist. I don't think it is wise to judge the motivation of the artists or the nature of these individuals and claim that they wish to flaunt riches, hide ugliness, or that it's all vanity - we don't know those things as fact.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Mukthi is a different matter, but bhakthi is definitely quite worldly and outwardly. The alankaram of Gods and Goddesses are one of the greatest expressions of bhakthi in our culture. Of course I am not making a direct comparison of that to the artists on stage but just to point out that bhakthi, aesthetics, color, flowers and celebrations can indeed go together. There are umpteen examples of that in such divine contexts and we are all perfectly comfortable with that. Music goes hand in hand with bhakthi and celebration of many kinds.
This reminds me of a little exchange I had with a (non-indian) professor of religion from a local university. I offered him my hypothesis in a lighter vein that the reason religion is hard is because God is no fun!
His immediate reaction was 'How about Krishna! Isn't he an embodiment of fun!'. Good rebuttal to my hypothesis, I thought. Krishna is more than that to us of course, but He definitely falls on the fun side and can be related to by bhakthas that way.
I guess the common theme is 'tastefulness' and in the right proportion that is appropriate for the occasion. There is that 'normal' in people's minds. It is not a single point, it is a dynamic range of some sort. It looks out of place only when it falls outside of that wide range, Of course, there will always be people to whom the 'normal' is not that wide. Their dis-approvals are normal too.
This reminds me of a little exchange I had with a (non-indian) professor of religion from a local university. I offered him my hypothesis in a lighter vein that the reason religion is hard is because God is no fun!
His immediate reaction was 'How about Krishna! Isn't he an embodiment of fun!'. Good rebuttal to my hypothesis, I thought. Krishna is more than that to us of course, but He definitely falls on the fun side and can be related to by bhakthas that way.I guess the common theme is 'tastefulness' and in the right proportion that is appropriate for the occasion. There is that 'normal' in people's minds. It is not a single point, it is a dynamic range of some sort. It looks out of place only when it falls outside of that wide range, Of course, there will always be people to whom the 'normal' is not that wide. Their dis-approvals are normal too.
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varsha
- Posts: 1978
- Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
“We have not yet encountered any god who is as merciful as a man who flicks a beetle over on its feet.”
--------------------
“If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
"No", said the priest, "not if you did not know."
"Then why," asked the Eskimo earnestly, "did you tell me?”
---------------------
“The answer must be, I think, that beauty and grace are performed whether or not we will or sense them. The least we can do is try to be there.”
--------------------
For more of these
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1252 ... nker_Creek
--------------------
“If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
"No", said the priest, "not if you did not know."
"Then why," asked the Eskimo earnestly, "did you tell me?”
---------------------
“The answer must be, I think, that beauty and grace are performed whether or not we will or sense them. The least we can do is try to be there.”
--------------------
For more of these
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1252 ... nker_Creek
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
I don't mind living with my current eccentricity rating (I guess I don't have a choice) but it is enough, and you can be sure that I, for one, am not going to start turning up at concerts in a cotton sari.prabuddha wrote:... everyone must show up at concerts in cotton sarees, seems unduly prescriptive. I daresay such prescriptions are modern, urban and betray a deracinated background.
How can there be anything wrong in looking good? It seems to me that this controversy is a foolish diversion, but then, we all like to have our pet areas of complaining, so let me have mine, and I'll let those who like this one have it.
The problem comes only if the show exceeds the music, or the interest in the show exceeds the music. I've been to a number of concerts in London where, for some of the audience, meeting the VIPs in attendance, and showing off to them, seemed to be the priority of the first two or three rows in the auditorium. But then again, I have to remind myself that concert-going is actually an important part of my social life. Just... I'm probably happier chatting to SureshVV than I would have been chatting to Lord P
. (Never met Lord P... for all I know he might be a thoroughly pleasant regular guy).
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sureshvv
- Posts: 5542
- Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Great to know that I am ahead of Lord P, whoever that is, in the pecking orderNick H wrote: Just... I'm probably happier chatting to SureshVV than I would have been chatting to Lord P
To me this whole premise is a false dichotomy.
We know and love CM because it offers entertaining liberation (or liberating entertainment)
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Probably most forms of music offer a bit of everything, and allow people to take away what they want, but Carnatic music seems to me, to take the biscuit (cake, if you're American) in its range of appeal from coldly intellectual to warmest emotion, touching on spirituality and religion on the way.
It isn't meant for anything. It's meant for everything.
It isn't meant for anything. It's meant for everything.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
"entertaining liberation'' or "liberating entertainment".
A good one, Suresh
Nick says:
"In its range of appeal from coldly intellectual to warmest emotion, touching on spirituality and religion on the way".
"Most forms of music offer a bit of of everything, and allow people to take away what they want".
Can't agree more--whether Lord P is in accord or not. Who IS he?
A good one, Suresh
Nick says:
"In its range of appeal from coldly intellectual to warmest emotion, touching on spirituality and religion on the way".
"Most forms of music offer a bit of of everything, and allow people to take away what they want".
Can't agree more--whether Lord P is in accord or not. Who IS he?
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prabuddha
- Posts: 63
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 06:08
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Even I would like to know who Lord P is?
In any case, thanks to rasika's Mohan, priyaram78, Rsachi, Shivadasan, Pratyaksham Bala, rshankar, sureshvv, Ranganayaki, Vasanthakokilam, Varsha, Nick H, SureshVV, Arasi et al, for their views.
In any case, thanks to rasika's Mohan, priyaram78, Rsachi, Shivadasan, Pratyaksham Bala, rshankar, sureshvv, Ranganayaki, Vasanthakokilam, Varsha, Nick H, SureshVV, Arasi et al, for their views.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Lord Paul, an Indian-born member of the British Upper House. I really don't know anything about him, and he is probably a genuine lover of the arts, but whenever I have seen him at concerts, he is (whether he likes or not) a honey-pot to the VIP-seeking bees. Or that should probably be butterflies gieven the fluttering of the multi-coloured saris.
Apologies to the guy for dragging him in here as an example!
Apologies to the guy for dragging him in here as an example!
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Ah, the mystery is solved!
Just a moment! He could still be a honey pot--in nourishing the arts and also perhaps has the clout to rope in some 'pots of gold' patrons to fund the arts!
Just a moment! He could still be a honey pot--in nourishing the arts and also perhaps has the clout to rope in some 'pots of gold' patrons to fund the arts!
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Rsachi
- Posts: 5039
- Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Baron Swraj Paul, born in Punjab, brother of Satya Paul of Apeejay group, settled in London after graduating from MIT, industrialist, parliamentarian, and philanthropist (gave a lot of money to London Zoo) and a respected Indian.
Relationship with Carnatic music a bit tenuous, stemming from some specimens in the Zoo bearing resemblance to more colourful beings in our audiences and on stage.
Relationship with Carnatic music a bit tenuous, stemming from some specimens in the Zoo bearing resemblance to more colourful beings in our audiences and on stage.
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prabuddha
- Posts: 63
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 06:08
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Of course, Swraj Paul. He and his company the Caparo Group, were very much in the Indian Press in the early 80's for a hostile takeover bid on Escorts Ltd, an auto company out of Delhi. It was a very Indian style takeover attempt. Swraj Paul who was a big acolyte of Mrs I Gandhi got her to pressure financial institutions holding Escorts stock to vote in favor of Paul. But the Escorts' founding family, the Nanda's, was Punjabi too, like Paul. They fought back hard. It was a long drawn out battle. In 1984 Mrs I Gandhi having died, the courts ruled in favor of the Nanda's.
I would guess that Lord Paul like his erstwhile patroness Mrs I Gandhi would be tone deaf too. Giving money to the Zoo is more like him.
I would guess that Lord Paul like his erstwhile patroness Mrs I Gandhi would be tone deaf too. Giving money to the Zoo is more like him.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
A zoo, while not catering to all CM fans I agree, is something vital to a city. A place where children can actually see and observe animals from near and far (not just on television programs). It is an outdoor feature where animals are let to live in their own habitat (more or less). How many parents can even dream of taking their children on a safari or to the jungles in the world?
Zoos provide the space too for children to roam about in, as they experience wild life in one spot--their neighborhood zoo. What a change for a day from living in a city in small flats for them!
No, I would not call a benefactor to a zoo anything but a generous donor.
As for Mrs. Gandhi, deaf or not, one of our distinguished musicians even created a beautiful rAgA in her name. So, it's not a total loss there, either
However, I hope there are going to be more and more from the wealthy class who are happy to patronize CM in the future.
Zoos provide the space too for children to roam about in, as they experience wild life in one spot--their neighborhood zoo. What a change for a day from living in a city in small flats for them!
No, I would not call a benefactor to a zoo anything but a generous donor.
As for Mrs. Gandhi, deaf or not, one of our distinguished musicians even created a beautiful rAgA in her name. So, it's not a total loss there, either
However, I hope there are going to be more and more from the wealthy class who are happy to patronize CM in the future.
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prabuddha
- Posts: 63
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 06:08
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
> However, I hope there are going to be more and more from the wealthy class who are happy to patronize CM in the future.
I hope so too.
I hope so too.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Is CM meant for entertainment or for liberation?
Actually, London Zoo is wonderful. I never appreciated it when I lived there, but now would not miss it on a visit to the city. So hats off to Lord P for supporting it.
I think I've spotted him being butterflied at BVB, and it was probably a Hindustani-music occasion.
Much more interesting... Let's talk about Sureshvv
And, just an idea: might not carnatic music benefit more from dragging the less wealthy away from their TV sets. Apparently, at least for some of the fabled artists, drivers did not sleep outside the concert halls.
I think I've spotted him being butterflied at BVB, and it was probably a Hindustani-music occasion.
Much more interesting... Let's talk about Sureshvv
And, just an idea: might not carnatic music benefit more from dragging the less wealthy away from their TV sets. Apparently, at least for some of the fabled artists, drivers did not sleep outside the concert halls.