Diction and other lapses in sahitya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Apr 2013, 23:54

(Discussion split off from the "Malladi Brothers at IFA San Diego, March 21st" thread http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21101)

Just like you all, I am all for artists pronouncing the lyrics correctly no matter what the language is. Culturally, that is a great yard stick and artists should put in the extra work and care in that department. It is indeed a great experience when a song you know well is sung with great diction. But I personally cut a lot of slack given the practical difficulties artists face when singing songs that are in the tongues they are not comfortable with ( though I am not beyond making a remark or two about that! ). Another reason for that is a bit more personal,I am not very good when it comes to pronunciation in other languages and also tamil words that are of Sanskrit origin ( which I know is rshankar's soap box, I think I will perform miserably by his standards). So I am a bit hesitant to be too righteous about it.

But at a practical level, the problem is more acute when we know what the right pronunciation is. It definitely detracts from the enjoyment of the song. So it is a blessing in disguise and a boon that CM songs are in many languages that I do not know well enough to find faults in diction. So, in that sense, I tend to notice when artists murder Tamil more than artists murdering Telugu or Sanskrit, for example. Even the tamil brahmanical accent by Tamil artists when that is overdone and when not warranted is a bit distracting. I find it interesting the CM community in general seems to gloss over that. Some of artists tend to err on the side of too much sankritization of Tamil. Just to be on the safe side I suppose

rshankar, about your comment about the relative murder rate, I think it has more to do with frequency than anything inherent. There is really no reason to believe that any Telugu person to have less diction problems with Tamil than a Tamil person to have diction problems in Telugu. The problems are different kinds, possibly. But the frequency of Telugu mutilations are indeed very high given the high number of Tamil artists in the circuit ( the one that we are normally exposed to ) and the high number of Telugu compositions.

As observed in another thread, it is quite refreshing to hear an artist like Amrutha Venkatesh who seems to have the ability to sing in all CM languages with great diction.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Apr 2013, 02:56

VK,
This is an ever green topic to discuss!
I'm a stickler too, and like Ravi am quick to react to 'pismrununciations' (those who have watched the two Ronnies on BBC know what I mean).

However, I cannot be too righteous about it. Reasons: I might have been singing some old song for ages with a few of my own words inserted in the sAhityam! Why? Because I didn't hear the words properly at first--ah, their fault

--and my words had seemed fine for years because I would have substituted words which did make sense in the context.

At other times when words which they sing don't make sense (or have been mangled), I would have been carried away by the musical fireworks at that point and would have let my guard down.

Interesting, how vocalists do emphasize to students that words have to be sung properly and with bhAvam. I'm sure they mean it and I also know that it's not that easy to achieve. In a Cleveland music competition, I heard one say this to a child, and also read the same day in a review

that he wasn't that good at singing some words properly in a language which he doesn't speak at home

DKP is a delight to hear. I also appreciate others who make every word come out as clearly as possible when they sing. But there better be a lot of bhAvam as there is in her music. Their ability for this better carry a lode of imagination and bring to us music which is full of bhAvam. Otherwise, I may not be impressed that much, after all!

As for their not getting the words of my songs properly--I may not mind if they don't take the sense away from the song. After all, if I can get away with it, so can they

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Apr 2013, 03:26

Well, I have to say that tamizh speakers and those that write all sAhityam in tamizh are really susceptible to a peculiar set of problems that arise from the lack of certain letters (consonants) in the tamizh script - for instance, if one writes down 'கானா காயா', it is very hard to figure out if the correct phrase is khAnA khAyA or gAnA gAyA - either may be appropriate given the situation. kAnA kAyA will not make any sense though.
Apologies in advance for the digression, but here is an interesting incident that highlights this issue - back in the days when I worked in Chandigarh, there was a new resident in our program who was from TN - someone who knew no other language than tamizh and english. He supposedly took a crash course in 'spoken hindi' before he joined, and he continued to build up his vocabulary by writing down new words (in tamizh script). We used refer to a chest x-ray as 'chAtI ka photo' ('சாதீ கா photo' is how he wrote it down). A few days later, when this new resident was seeing a patient refered to us for a chest complaint, he wanted to see the x-rays, and asked the father for the 'chAti kA photo', except that (reading out from his tamizh script), he asked for 'SAdI kA photo'. The bewildered father of the patient (an innocent, if there ever was one) disappeared for a couple of hours, and returned with a picture from his wedding album! I promise I did not make this up!!! All of us who were working that evening had to retire to a side room so that we could laugh freely and not appear unprofessional before all the waiting patients.
So.....

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Apr 2013, 04:45

Quite funny, rshankar

I agree with you that the Tamil script issue is the source of many of the telugu mutilation cases. My point was related but slightly different that we do not need to grade the non-tamil speakers' mutilations on a curve as a lesser grade/more tolerable mutilation!! May be their issues stem from bad transliterations.

Having talked about my tolerance for mutilations for the various reasons I mentioned, I have to admit that when a Tamil speaker says Muhari, I have an urge to correct them since it is rough even for me but it is so widespread that I will be annoying a lot of people if I do.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 02 Apr 2013, 09:58

Partially, it is casual nature or negligence for not getting the right words. With a little effort, checking with people who are familiar on that particular langauge, you can get the correct words. There are many books with meaning for reference.
Yesterday, 1/04 at 10 PM in the FM Radio, there was a music concertr by one Smt Uma Venkatesan. She sang the evergreen popular song Parathpara Parameswara. Alas! she sang as Pahi sreepathey instead of Parvathipathe. The meaning is just opposite. Pahi Sreepathe refers to Vishnu when the song is about Siva This is sheer casual approach . Once you hear MSS version, you can get to know the correct words.This deserves no excuse.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Apr 2013, 18:23

a la mA ramaNan by the same lofty composer, I guess!
Ah, the liberties we take!
Seriously, apasvarams or bringing in notes which do not belong in a rAgam are recognized as 'no no' on stage. Incorrect words are not taken as seriously perhaps by singers?
Here, it's not like our humming it at home. Once it's heard on stage, who knows, with the possibility of their being heard by many (on Youtube and so on), the mistakes may be picked up by others who learn them and the mangling of sAhityam not only stays, but is perpetuated

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Apr 2013, 19:56

Arasi: You always have a fresh perspective. Quite true, such mistakes get recorded and forever preserved. Ooch.. On a lighter note, we have a studio recording of R&G where they sing a great Mukhari and indeed start the song superbly with great gusto but with kaNRin instead of kanRin. Probably too subtle for a lot of people but we can hear it clearly. After a few times, it no longer distracts us from enjoying that Mukhari and clear Tamil pronunciation otherwise but we endearingly call that CD the 'kaNRin kural CD'. Unfair to R&G definitely, since they are excellent at diction, so it is all in good fun

Your comparison of sahitya issues to apasvarams is quite apt. Interestingly, in apa-swara, apa-sahitya and ( let us add ) apa-laya, it is only apa if you know what is not apa. ( apologies if I use apa in an apa way!! ).

In the case of melody, it is easy for most people to detect it. Along the same lines, I can detect lapses in Tamil lyrics but not with Telugu lyrics. Hence my earlier comment about not giving sort of a second place to the seriousness of Tamil lapses just because there are way numerous Telugu lapses out there ( that go unreported ). But how about apa-laya? Since most people have only a gross sense of laya correctness, except for a few laya sensitive people, most would not notice anything wrong. Of the three categories, I think laya lapses are the most common in many concerts. Ask any mridangist in private!!

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 02 Apr 2013, 20:06

This is turning out to be an interesting topic.
But perhaps post #18 onwards may be moved to a separate thread? This discussion merits its own identity, although it owes its origins to the Malladi concert in San Diego.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Apr 2013, 20:17

>But perhaps post #18 onwards may be moved to a separate thread?

Done. I have kept it in the General Discussion sub forum for now.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Apr 2013, 21:34

VK,
Quick work there, to discuss 'bilabial plosive' sounds among others.

Mahavishnu,
Loved those two words that you introduced to me in the other thread!

As always, there are exceptions to the rules. However, my choice is that sanskrit and in sanskrit related words in the languages (tamizh takes a respite here!), it's better when we hear those sounds in their singing: prabhO! bharita, bhagavan, phala pradam etc.
By the same token, MS who was meticulous about it and sometimes brought it into tamizh lines too, and I didn't mind it. When others do it in tamizh, I notice it!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Apr 2013, 22:10

Not to nit pick, but, as I see it, if the thread is titled as lapses in diction, then the example that CRama quoted or the instance when a reputed singer morphed rAma sahOdari to rAma manOhari are not what fit here - these are examples of correctly pronounced wrong words.
The issues being discussed in this thread are when the right words are pronounced incorrectly.

And Mahavishnu, it is not just with the bilabial plosives (ph, bh) where these issues occur - they also occur with kh, gh, th, and dh which are not bilabials..., not to mention the issue of interchanging the p and b sounds, k and g sound, t and d sounds.

If one wants to see how these phonological variants are of importance (even without going into the issue of the plosives), Pondicherry offers a great database - back in the days when the births were registered with the French staff, and names written down by them, they went with how the name was pronounced - so there is a whole bunch of Batmanabanes, Batmavatees around, as also are Mokans and Mogans, Banneerselvams etc.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 02 Apr 2013, 22:24

Arasi: Agreed. I don't mind when sanskritized sounds find their way into tamizh, especially P.Sivan's songs where the influence of Sanskrit is undeniable. Bharathi's songs can go either way, although to my ears there are certain compositions that do not take to sanskritization very well. He himself has punned on bharathi- barathi- par adhi.

I can categorize the errors into semantic (like pAhisreepathE instead of pArvatipathE) which are egregious and borderline unpardonable. This reflects the lack of diligence on the part of the singer, and to a larger extent the guru, who has taught them this way.

And then there are phonetic errors arising from voicing or production errors, which are a function of language of origin. Well, people have "accents" that come from their native language that spills over to their singing as well. To some extent, these are culturally specified and many times native speakers do not even hear these errors.

Bilabial plosive errors [/b/, /bh/ vs /p/] are the most common, but then there are also fricative sound errors [/ç/ /ch/ /s/, /sh/, /sz/ and /j/] sounds. This is a sound created by one's tongue touching the roof of the mouth to let a column of air through. The hard or soft consonant sound is determined by how much friction is involved in the passage, and hence referred to as a "fricative".

As Ravi and CRama noted earlier, there is something about Smt MSS's diction that is just perfect. Here is a good example of both the /sh/ and the subtle /j/ /sz/ fricative in Smt MSS's rendition of vAsudEva kamalAsana; specifically check out the part after about 0:25s into the clip.
https://soundcloud.com/ramesh-balasubra ... a-vasudeva

I get goosebumps everytime I hear this song! And Karaikudi Mani's mridangam is just superb; added bonus.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 02 Apr 2013, 22:32

Ravi, my post just crossed yours. I agree that it is not bilabial plosives alone. k, /kh/ (velar); /d/,/dh/ (alveolar) and the intersection of /b/ and /v/ (labiodental) all have subtle differences across Indian languages of Sanskritic/Indo-European or Dravidian origin.

Yes, there are many Sri Lankan tamil names that have the same phonological variants that you speak of. One of my former graduate students is named Kiritharan; where there is a switch of /k/ and /dh/ that happened in transliteration. But I have heard his family pronounce his name exactly as it is spelled, during his graduation and it took a while for me to even figure out that we were referring to the same person!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Apr 2013, 23:06

>Not to nit pick, but, as I see it, if the thread is titled as lapses in diction, then the example that CRama
>quoted or the instance when a reputed singer morphed rAma sahOdari to rAma manOhari are not what fit here

Ravi, I have changed the title slightly. See if that works. If you suggest a better title, I will update.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Apr 2013, 00:15

How about
Semantic errors in CM, but not syntax...

eesha · Post by **eesha** » 03 Apr 2013, 00:37

While wrong pronunciation is one source of error, improper splitting of words mutilates the meaning. MMI was one did not care much for sahitya. "matavaaraNa mukhanE " split as "matavaa raNa mukhanE " alters the meaning drastically and insults the deity. Splitting "naadathanum anisam" as "naada thanumanisam" again makes the line meaningless.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Apr 2013, 03:31

It is probably better that we do not quote specific artists and also not generalize and paint with a huge brush like above. Otherwise this thread will be about that and not the main topic.

On the splitting aspect, that is another big boon not to know the language. I can see how much that can be distracting.
I hear everyone sing it as 'naada thanumanisam'. Did not know that was not quite right.

In a prior discussion on this topic, it was pointed out that extensions that are critical for song construction and laya considerations can potentially cause those unnatural splits. That is not the reason for all the bad splits. As is common, the vowel ( and certain stop consonants like M, N, Ng. ) gets the extension, and an extension followed by a little break for laya bhavam can get one into trouble.

What is an example of a bad split in a Tamil composition?

What is a good example of a rendition with 'naadathanumanisam' using the right split.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Apr 2013, 04:02

vasanthakokilam wrote:What is an example of a bad split in a Tamil composition?

The example above - mada vAraNa mukhava split as madavA raNa mukhava

Ramesh - another interesting issue with names - rare as it used to be, there were a few migrant tamizh workers in Chandigarh, and one of them had brought his child for a well child visit, and the resident who saw the child called me aside and asked in a whisper, "do madrAsIs name their child 'cold-water'? Sounds more like an American Indian name" - now, this intrigued me vastly, so I went over to check the child's name - it was registered as 'Thandapani', and the resident (from Delhi) promptly decided to pronounce it as 'ThaNDA pAnI' (cold water)!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 03 Apr 2013, 04:39

That was hilarious Ravi.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Apr 2013, 04:59

Ravi,
These Chandigarh stories are apt for the Hilarity thread as well!
No, we are not going away from the subject. These are samples of the morphing of words during time and geographical distances from their birth place.

This can very well be seen in how english words come out of our mouths--yes, governed by the language spoken at home and by the place we live in.

Another one is when the speaker did not know or understand english, but incorporated some words into their own tongue with ease. digeTTu (ticket), dEsan (station), innispector (inspector) and so on.

I imagine that in a far off land where names are unfamiliar to the locals, your name easily gets changed, and in due course, the spelling too. In the north american kids who sing the words in a CM song correctly (if the teacher has taught them right!), as we hear them speak, we can detect the changes--in the way they pronounce proper names. Even if a name is said correctly, the intonation or the stress on syllables may not sound just right. Partly because their peers call them that way, and partly because that's the way they hear the language around them (English) is spoken and intoned.
In India, I've noticed children who know tamizh very well, but have been in Delhi for instance for a long time--from a distance, we hear the intonation (not the words) as if they are conversing in Hindi.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 03 Apr 2013, 05:55

vasanthakokilam wrote: On the splitting aspect, that is another big boon not to know the language. I can see how much that can be distracting.
I hear everyone sing it as 'naada thanumanisam'. Did not know that was not quite right.

What is a good example of a rendition with 'naadathanumanisam' using the right split.

Here is a rendition by NSG teaching this song where they get the split just right. The sound is not balanced very well, so the relative recording db levels are unusually high. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93v2102aQ7M

Following VK's cautious remark, I just wanted to make this quick point. Given the way the kArvai works at the end of the /da/ in nAda, even if there is a gap, it sounds just fine to me. It does not feel like anything is lost there in terms of semantics. Even Musiri sang it this way. MMI gave life to this song. The only reason this song is even in vogue today is because of him (sarasAma, tatvamariya taramA being others).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Apr 2013, 07:05

Just one more medically related example.
When I was doing some studies in Industrial medicine at Calcutta the Prof who was a bengaLi doctor was explaining Diabetes
to the class which was a mix of health and engineering professionals. He said emphatically:
"If you want to find out whether one has disbetes you must "taste" the urine"
My engineering friends from south were flabbergasted and asked me
Is that the way to find out whether the urine is sweet? You guys must be real gross..
I had to explain to them that Bengalis pronounce 'Test' as 'Taste" and we all had a field day laughing...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Apr 2013, 07:27

Richard Gordon is not missed at all. There are doctor(s) in the house and hilarity reigns...

Some sukkumi Lagu tip pilis (chopping up words into meaningless ones):
rAma nI samAnamevaru as rAma nIsA...mAnamevaru
O raghOthama nivanTivAniki as OragUthamani vaNDivAniki

srikrishna · Post by **srikrishna** » 03 Apr 2013, 07:31

mahavishnu wrote:
Here is a rendition by NSG teaching this song where they get the split just right. The sound is not balanced very well, so the relative recording db levels are unusually high. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93v2102aQ7M

I do not think the split is right in this video. It should be naadathanum (pause) aniSam (aniSam). It is split in the video as naadatanooo manisham. There is also this issue with Sa and sha (an issue the elder Malladi brother talked about right after the Cleveland concert competition).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Apr 2013, 10:12

Yes you are right!
It is nAdatanu = music bodied ( a bahuvrIhi compound) > nAdatanum ( accusative case)
shankaram = Lord Siva ( accusative case) , anisham = incessantly (indeclinable)
namAmi = I prostrate.
Some sing it as nAdatanu maniSham = the human form which is a musical body...
That is sheer nonsense and ungrammatical...
Again the elongation nAdatanuum is ungrammatical but needed for musical reasons...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Apr 2013, 10:42

>Again the elongation nAdatanuum is ungrammatical but needed for musical reasons...

Well, 'um' kind of places in a word are composers' delightful playground since both letters are extendable so they can pack some raga bhava in. By that count, most vowel elongations would be ungrammatical. But are they? Most Sangathis would have to be banned. I think there is a totally different grammar when it comes to music with a lot of lenient licenses compared to say a poetry style recital of a verse. Just because there is an elongation and/or a break does not mean the listener has to go out of their way to interpret that as a stand alone word and fret over it.

Let me make up an artificial example to show how much lyrical leniency our brain allows when it comes to music. Take the tamil word 'UrukAi'. I picked this word because it provides a lot of scope for extending in many places and you can sing that one word for a slow tempo 2 kalai Adi cycle

Now there are two distinct ways of singing it. U..........ru........kA........i........ . Silly, but I do not think any one will complain the singer is murdering the word. Now what about a break after each elongation.
U......<small break for laya bhava>ru...... < break > kA.... < break> i........ People need not still think that the word is getting murdered but it is probably at the limits and starting to get comical. But our brain can manage to put all those pieces together! Sans music, the same thing in a poetry rendition will sound outright silly and bad.

( If you think urukAi is a silly example, try thiruvAnmiyur . It is indeed possible to musically split it at the so called 'wrong' places but our brain can put them together and be at peace with it. Because there is music flowing over it. We can not and should not insist that any elongation or breaks in the word in the musical context has to be lyrically meaningful. In a poetry recital, definitely yes, in a musical composition, not necessarily )

Of course, a singer can stretch the boundaries of even these lenient criteria to the extent that it is obvious to any one that it conveys a different meaning ( without going out of their way to drag in an alternate meaning ), and that is what we need to quibble about.

Given that, how bad is the infraction with the common ways of singing nAdatanumaniSham ?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Apr 2013, 11:00

How about
Uru... K. Ku.. KAi
The whole meaning changes as (steel unripe fruit) : D
Note again that correctly it is URukAi where Ra the vallinam is special to Tamil..
whereas UrukAi means - a village with unripe fruit

squims · Post by **squims** » 03 Apr 2013, 15:10

I attended a BMK concert where he sang the song. He sang it perfectly as 'nAdatanum aniSam'. That was the first time I realised it was meant to be pronounced that way!
Here's his version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BZPpe90u8U

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 03 Apr 2013, 17:44

I agree with srikrishna too.
I am not sure I agree with CML about nadatanu manisham meaning "human form which is a musical body". That sounds interesting, but manisham does not mean human form.. the sanskrit word closest to that would be manushya, I think.

There are three words here, nada, tanu and anisham. Tanu gets the accusative case ending, m because it is the object of the verb Namaami (meaning I prostrate before): Tanum. So it can be sung as two words, nadatanum anisham, or when musically the tanum and the anisham are joined, singing it as nadatanooomanisham would be wrong.

I don't agree with CML that this elongation would be necessary for musical reasons. The joining may be necessary, but not the elongation at U. If a singer wanted to be precise with diction, he would sing it as Nadatanummmmmanisham. The ma would sound similar to the ma that is elongated at the end of anisham or shankaram.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 03 Apr 2013, 17:52

oops.. I began replying to Srikrishna.. and cml had already chimed in, but many others have already written before I submitted! This seems to be a hot topic!

I think I agree with VK that a lot of sangatis would have to be banned if vowels were not allowed to be elongated. That is a license singers can be allowed with the lyrics of a song. But while most consonants cannot be elongated the nasal consonants can be. So here musically elongating the tanum at M would be a good solution.

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 03 Apr 2013, 17:57

There are several examples mangling the lyrics -independent of language (tamil, telugu, ...)

The Alwar pasuram - Urilen, Kaniyillai, is rendered as Uruley Kaniyillai (I do not have lands in my native place) . This sort of polemics is not what the Alwar wanted to convey, me thinks.

Kandu dhayanana (Behag) - I was always puzzled by Esu Janmatha - (where is Jesus in Udupi

) and I think it is supposed to be - is it the sukratham of seven jamas ?

For malayalam singers some of the tamil words are a problem - Hariyum Haranum Ondre (Atana) ... Ariyadhar ulare ... It is supposed to uLAre and the distinction between la and LA.

From a linguistic phonetic perspective, the way we articulate is based on the mother tongue and so, I guess this sort of mangling would be natural.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 03 Apr 2013, 18:02

One thing we are not talking about is the difference between short and long vowels. The short and long vowels do not differ only in length. The a and aaaa in tamil are not different only in length. The a in Pal (tooth) and the AA in Paal (milk) are not the same vowel pronounced short in one and long in the other. If you try elongating Pal exactly as it is pronounced, you would not get paal. So musically elongating a vowel does not make it wrong, except in the case of "u" (I believe).

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 03 Apr 2013, 18:21

annamalai wrote: From a linguistic phonetic perspective, the way we articulate is based on the mother tongue and so, I guess this sort of mangling would be natural.

I agree that the mangling would be natural, but to pay no attention to it is not nice. The pleasure I get when I hear a Telugu song rendered correctly, and the better understanding it often leads to are undeniable. Some songs I know sound like drivel to my ears and I just hate singing them to myself even though musically they are lovely. Then I come across a well-pronounced version and the song becomes suddenly appealing, even if I don't understand it.

I don't think MSS needed to make herculean efforts to pronounce correctly. That's the nice thing about music, it's easier to pronounce correctly when singing than while speaking.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Apr 2013, 18:55

Ranganayaki wrote:That's the nice thing about music, it's easier to pronounce correctly when singing than while speaking.

Very obvious when you hear many of the kids in the US sing - their singing makes you think that they can 'speak' with equal felicity in pronunciation, but it's not the case usually!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Apr 2013, 19:14

Ranganayaki, Ravi, correct. I know exactly what you mean. Another such case in point, even more illustrative, is the numerous Japanese singers who sing Rock, Blues and even Country music. It is just a perfect reproduction of the song with no sign of any accent. But they just can not speak any English

I guess these North Indian singers who sing for Tamil film songs would be another example. ( and vice versa ).

On a related point. I used to give a hard time to a kid ( jovially of course ) who fits the profile Ravi mentions. But the amazing thing is, she spent four weeks among Tamil speaking people in India and when she came back, all her Tamil accent had disappeared and she talked like a local ( even better, since local native Tamil speakers, especially the younger ones have their own issues with language ). She was around 15 or so then. It was so good that I just could not stop talking to her so she will talk back to me in such a sweet Tamil. I asked her if she did anything specific about it. Nothing, just being there and talking among people just took the accent out and added a lot of fluency and vocabulary.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Apr 2013, 19:40

Ranganayaki
Pl read carefully what I wrote and comment.
Don't put words in my mouth as you please

sivakami · Post by **sivakami** » 03 Apr 2013, 22:41

The pleasure I get when I hear a Telugu song is rendered correctly, and the better understanding it often leads to are undeniable

@Ranganayaki,
Very true.... And hence, many times, one does not even feel like listening to other (distorted) versions...
‘paattum naane, bhavamum naane' can be rendered as ‘paattum naane, paavamum naane..’
or ‘bantu reethi koluvu’ can become “ pandu reedhi kolu”

@ rshankar,
I started laughing so loudly after reading about your experiences at chandigarh, that people at home started wondering what was wrong with me..
Yes, this 'gana gaaya & khana khaya' we too have come across sometimes..
I used to say perhaps 2 more combinations can be made, ‘Gaana khaya’ of ‘gaana gayaa.’.
Mix-up of the words bhavi (a well for water in telugu) and paavi is another typical example we used to come across, soon after we moved into Hyd.

@cmlover,
I have seen a top bengali scientist writing(to complain about a leaking tap), that the tap was licking,,

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Apr 2013, 23:42

Arasi, Sivakami, VK, VKR and others who have appreciated the jokes from Chandigarh - Thank you. I must clarify that the worst sort of cross-talk stemming from mis-pronunciation of hindi/punjAbi did not involve madrAsIs (as we were all called), but from the few Bengali residents we had! All of these instances were hilarious and still keep us in splits when we reminisce about these at get togethers even today...
There's one more incident along the lines of pAhi SripatE (instead of pAravtI patE) and rAma manOhari (instead of rAma sahOdari) from my Chandigarh days - I promise it's the last one.....
When children get dehydrated due to diarrhea and/or vomiting, they can get sick really fast and look ghastly - and treating them with IV fluids is so rewarding - it's almost like magic to see them recover really quickly. In any case, the standard spiel to the anxious family used to be: "Do not worry, we will give IV fluids, and the child will recover" - the coloquial term for IV fluids was 'glucose' - so, in hindi the spiel would go "cintA mat karO - hum 'glucose' dEngE aur baccA ThIk ho jAyegA". In one of my first rotations through the ER, I was partnered with another resident from Madras, and we used to have a whale of a time speaking in tamizh while we worked. One day, she called me over urgently, and said to me in a low voice "unakku tAn hindi nannA teriyumE - ivA enna pEsi ippaDi yEn yenna pArkarAnu konjam sollu' ("since you know hindi well, tell me what it is that 'these people' are saying and looking at me like this') - 'these people' were the family of child she was going to treat with IV fluids for dehydration - after listening to the family, I turned around and asked her what exactly it was she had said told them - very confidently, she said this is what I told them - "hum glucose lEngE aur baccA ThIk hO jAyegA" - it was now my turn to start laughing - I had to quickly control myself, and explain it properly to the family and much later, explain to her the difference between dEngE (give) and lEngE (take). For those that do not understand hindi, what she had told the family was that she'd take the IV fluids herself and the child would get better - no wonder the family was looking at her as if she was going to practice voodoo!

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 03 Apr 2013, 23:46

cmlover wrote:Ranganayaki
Pl read carefully what I wrote and comment.
Don't put words in my mouth as you please

CML: Let's just discuss. Feel free to let me know what I misunderstood. It's important to me not to say things "as (I) please".

perarulalan · Post by **perarulalan** » 04 Apr 2013, 01:51

Couple of leading singers, with Tamizh as their mother tongue, maul the lyrics the following way!

The first incident relates to the song kaNda nAL mudhlAi kAdhal perugudhadi in madhuvanti -
The original lyrics goes this way!
vaNdisai pAdum ezhil vasanta pUngAvil
vandhu sugam thandha kandhanai en kAnthanai (kaNda nAL)....

The mauled one is the following:
vaNdisai pAdum ezhil vasanta pUngAvil
andha sugam thandha kandhanai en kAnthanai (kaNda nAL)....

The second one is the song ArumO Aval ...
Original lyrics:
Eru mayil Eri kunru thOrum ninrAdiyavan

Mauled one:
erumaiyil Eri kunru thOrum..

Pity the six faced Lord.. The singer steals YamA's vehicle and gives it to Shanmuga. Not stopping with that.. The singer aptly poses the question ArumO Aval to see poor Shanmuga climb the hill using that buffalo and not just that, but to see 6-faced Lord to stand and dance! Creativity, manodharma and imagination at its best!

The third one is subtle and probably given a benefit of doubt. But word play by the singer spoils the beauty of the lyrics.

Song: Muruganin maru peyar azhagu

Original lyrics:
thuRaviyum virumbiya uravu
nI thuRaviyAi ninritta thiruvE

Mauled one:
thuRaviyum virumbiya thuravu

Will add a few more! Noted the mauled tamiZh songs somewhere!!!

Regards
Perarulalan

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Apr 2013, 05:17

erumaiyil Eri kunru thOrum

..

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Apr 2013, 05:28

Ranganayaki:
You said

I am not sure I agree with CML about nadatanu manisham meaning "human form which is a musical body".

as though I was appreciative of it.
Actually I said

Some sing it as nAdatanu maniSham = the human form which is a musical body...
That is sheer nonsense and ungrammatical...

No further discussion needed..

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 04 Apr 2013, 07:14

cmlover wrote: as though I was appreciative of it.

A misunderstanding, CML. If you read carefully what I wrote (really want you to, not trying to fling your words back at you), you will see that I clearly said I disagreed with the MEANING you attribute to the words as they are sung. I knew you were not appreciative of it at all.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Apr 2013, 09:13

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 04 Apr 2013, 12:04

1. Squims example of bAlamurali's nadatanum is right on target . The anuswAra 'am' offers some scope for elongation [which is why it is classified as a vowel], though not as much as the other vowels. The visarga (:, Aytam in Tamil) is a voiceless stop; and hence it is impossible to elongate or even sustain for a short duration. [The pangs of pronouncing mAtanga-mukhaH at the end of the gauLa srimahAgaNapatiravatu.. ]

2.

Kandu dhayanana (Behag) - I was always puzzled by Esu Janmatha - (where is Jesus in Udupi ) and I think it is supposed to be - is it the sukratham of seven jamas ?

Esu is an older form of EStu meaning 'how many?' Esu janmada sukRtavO..kaNdu dhanyanAde translates to 'ettanai piravigaLil seida puNNiyamO etc. '

3.

Ranganayaki wrote:One thing we are not talking about is the difference between short and long vowels. The short and long vowels do not differ only in length. The a and aaaa in tamil are not different only in length. The a in Pal (tooth) and the AA in Paal (milk) are not the same vowel pronounced short in one and long in the other. If you try elongating Pal exactly as it is pronounced, you would not get paal. So musically elongating a vowel does not make it wrong, except in the case of "u" (I believe).

This is an important point. In the vEdAnga called shIksA [related to phonology] the short and long forms of a vowel are not merely distinguished by the duration of articulation; but also by the degree of manipulation of the mouth parts involved in the sound articulation.

The vowels a and A have the same site of origin; and differ in both duration and degree of opening the mouth. Some scholars suggest that the names hrasva and dIrgha, are because the mouth part expansion is extended or accentuated in the dIrgha. [Candrakirti's commentary on AnubhUti-swarUpAcArya's SArasvata-vyAkaraNam says dRNAti vidAryaty-uccArayamAnO mukham iti dIrghaH] There are other descriptive names for the position of the mouth while pronouncing the long and short versions of the vowels that I can't remember. [edit - pANini uses vivRta and samvRta, though some opine that these terms refer to expansion and contraction o the throat.]

The practical consequence for practitioners of music [particularly for those who are fastidious about pronunciation] is that, one is able to distinguish between the long vowel in kamalAmbA samrakSatu mAm and the short vowel in hRt-kamala-nagara-vihAriNi.

While the duration of pronunciation of la is the same in both cases, the shape of the mouth is different.

p.s. - Mahavishnu or VK could articulate this in much more elegant phonologically informed prose, this is the best I can do.

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 04 Apr 2013, 16:46

keerthi wrote:The practical consequence for practitioners of music [particularly for those who are fastidious about pronunciation] is that, one is able to distinguish between the long vowel in kamalAmbA samrakSatu mAm and the short vowel in hRt-kamala-nagara-vihAriNi.

Keerthi,
isn't it kamalA nagara? and nivAsinI not vihAriNi.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 04 Apr 2013, 19:10

venkatpv,

You're right on both counts..

I should stick to examples that I've actually learnt. It is indeed kamalApura and kamalAnagara.

One could take the red (dIrgha) and blue (hRasva) a sound in mariyAda gAdurA; to exemplify my point.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Apr 2013, 00:33

To add some geeky 'phonologically informed prose' as keerthi eloquently puts it

Vowels are classified in to a four by three matrix in The International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA).

( Open, Open-Mid, Close, Close-Mid ) for the tongue height. Open means the tongue position is as far as possible from the roof of the mouth – that is, as low as possible in the mouth. Close is the opposite. ( high and low are other common terminology though IPA does not use them. )

( Front, Central and Back ) for the tongue 'backness'. Is the tongue in the front, middle or back

The two 'a's are in different cells of the matrix. The short one is near-open - Central and the long one is Open-back

अ /ɐ/ or /ə/ a short near-open central vowel : u in bunny
आ /ɑː/ ā long open back unrounded vowel: a in father

Unrounded means the lips are not rounded

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Apr 2013, 05:18

Here is Smt. Vedavalli's prescription on how to correctly split and sing nadathanumanisam. This is from her Pramanam CD, 30 second excerpt.

https://soundcloud.com/dabbler126/pramanam-1-06-nada

So the problem is not whether there is a gap between nada and thanumanisam. Right way is to stress anisam emphatically enough that we hear it as a separate word. This then eliminates the problem of saying 'manisam' as a separate word. Interestingly, the artists need not really leave a gap between thanu and manisham for the bad perception to occur but saying 'ma', 'ni' and 'sam' with those splits make us hear manisam as a separate word which is the problem.

BMK also separates the 'anisam' like Smt. Vedavalli but he does not leave as much a gap between nada and thanum. That changes the laya of the song( emphasis positions ) significantly enough, but that is fine too.

Hope I got this right. If not, please correct.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 10 Apr 2013, 05:31

This is what I tried to express in post 30 and especially 29.

And:
A very concise explanation of the short "a" and long "A" in our languages, VK. Thanks.