Experimenting with Concert Formats

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Apr 2013, 20:14

I read with interest bharathi's review of T.M. Krishna's concert at Hamsadhwani
(http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21126). He seemed to have done
a ragam and thanam without a pallavi and bharathi wrote "the absence of pallavi was not as fufilling for the rasika as an RTP would have been"

I go out of my way to be supportive of any kind of experimentation, on my personal belief that there are way too many traditionalists in the CM eco-system who offer too much resistance to any kind of experimentation to the point of suffocation. Without variations there is no hope of meaningful new forms that lead to deeper aesthetics. Who else than a heavy weight like TMK to bulldoze through such resistance!. So I usually give TMK a lot of wiggle room in my mind.

But even with that mind set, I can understand and relate to what bharathi felt. It is more of an expectation thing. It is like taking a kid 2/3 of the way to an amusement park and then saying let us go home. How unsatisfying ( to say the least ) would that be!

So, this arbitrary chopping off of familiar patterns has its limits, can turn out to be bad and at the same time not bold enough.That is a bad combination that TMK can lose even a person like me.

Question is, what can he do that is more wholesome and it is even a better amusement park than the one we normally go to.

One idea came to my mind while reading bharathi's review which got some more confirmation and definition when I read her "Appan avadarita was rendered with a lot of devotion. In particular the neraval at mohini vadivikkuL; felt like Krishna was rendering a viruttam"

Aha!

Rather than R, RT etc. make it VTS, that is Virtuththam Thanam Song. In this view, Viriththam is basically Alapana with Words. T part is thanam with words. The song that follows is not like a pallavi with all its manodharma grandeur. The song part is there to provide closure and resolution ( not unlike how a song follows today's viruththam). It is a progression of layam from a structure point of view.
The alapana with words (Viruththam) is free form wrt layam but as we know there is layam there indeed. It is free form layam, NOT free from layam.
The thanam with words adds a little more structure to the layam. Enough of a layam and regularity that the percussionists can join.
The Song just completes that progression with regular song like layam.

All artists can easily follow this and one does not necessarily have to be an open maverick like TMK.

I think this has some potential to be attractive to a wider audience base while still keeping the traditionalists believe that this is all soaked in classicism.

Extending my analogy, why not tell the kid that we are going to a different amusement park which may be equally good or even better but we can not tell for sure. Let us see how it is. If we like it we can go there every other month.

Having said that, this feels like something someone would have done already since it is really not a major departure. Are there any examples of this? In any case, what do you all think about the idea?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Apr 2013, 20:25

VKM,
I agree that doing a Ragam and Tanam without a Pallavi is shortchanging the audience.
But unlike viruttam and song which are compositions being presented with manodharma, the RTP is all manodharma and the energy and focus of the artiste is different in that phase compared to the manodharma while rendering songs and viruttams. So I think VTS is not a naturally fitting combination.
I think viruttams can be sung as standalone pieces. Songs too. And RT has to be followed by a laya-structured presentation in the same raga like either a pallavi or at least a song (many vainikas and others too follow the song route. of course especially the Swathi Thirunal navaratri songs). The ragamalikas at the end of the pallavi are specially delightful. Especially if the vocalist/s and violin take turns with different ragas.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Apr 2013, 20:31

RSachi: Understood. That is same as today which definitely works.

Try singing tanam to words. It is definitely not easy but some artists come close to that form during niraval and it is quite attractive. Add some nadai variations to thanam with words and now we are talking top tier talent requirements.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 01 Apr 2013, 21:50

VK, I remember very recently we had a long discussion about an alternative kutcheri format taking cue from TMK's innovations. Yourself had participated extensively and I also offered my two cents.Since you asked about the format of Virutham-Tanam-Pallavi I decided to chip in.

VTP as been already done by MLV and TNS - but they did not make it a regular format for their concerts. In one concert, MLV sang Chandrachooda Siva Sankara Parvathy- a ragamalika starting with Sankarabharanam and followed it up with Tanam and Pallavi in Sankarabharanam- a typical Pallavi with all ingredients fulfilled. Probably, on that day,she would not have had time for an expansive raga alapana. This concert also is of two and half hours duration only. There is a famous concert of TNS held in US (CMANA) with Trichy Sankaran in Mridangam. That concert has got Palimsu Kamakshi as Main which TNS sings for more than an hour in his usual way with all laya oriented swaras. After the thani, he takes up a slokam- Vande Mataram. The last leg of the slokam is in Suruti. This segment he sings very elaborately for about 10 minutes. Then he sings tanam in Suruti and tops with a Pallavi in Suruti including the name of CMANA. Before the pallavi he announces that I do not feel like concluding the concert without a pallavi. SO, he did not make it as a format. Just on the spur of the moment, he went ahead with the Pallavi. The Pallavi had all the technicalities you can expect from TNS. Once in a while, this can be presented. NO harm.

You have told about singing virutham in the place of raga alapana before a song. TNS has done that a few times.He had sung Santhakaram bhujagasayanam or any other slokam very elaborately for about 10-15 minutes before embarking on Sree Sathyanarayanam and done neraval at Matsya kurma varaha and also sung swaras at various places. Similarly, he had sung slokam from Meenakshi Pancharathnam very elaborately preceding Nannu brovu Lalitha,

YOU were quite right in telling about the expectations and disappointment while the child is not taken to a park. I have personally felt this disappointment more than once. I am a big fan of TMK's music and I very much enjoy his high voltage last avartanam neravals. Three fiour years back, he started the format- no swaram after the neraval. I felt terribly disappointed and I used to feel as if somebody drives me out of a dinner while I was fully enjoying the dinner. Next came the format- Singing Varnam as the main song. The present format is he is trying to establish there is no link between various aspects of music- song, ragam alapana, neraval, swaram, ragam, tanam, pallavi, tani etc. Each can be a stand alone thing

The format can be altered in thematic concerts. In 2009, TMK presented a RTP concert in Mudhra. Everybody will sing only one elaborate RTP. But he sang three or four RTPs in that concert. IT was simply amazing.

He has got his admirers too. But I can not relish the present format.I have taken a break from attending his concerts. But definitely he is not at loss.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 01 Apr 2013, 22:57

CRama wrote: You have told about singing virutham in the place of raga alapana before a song. TNS has done that a few times.He had sung Santhakaram bhujagasayanam or any other slokam very elaborately for about 10-15 minutes before embarking on Sree Sathyanarayanam and done neraval at Matsya kurma varaha and also sung swaras at various places.

Thank u for your cmana pallavi reference , I never knew that he sang tanam sandwiching between slokham and pallavi.
With respect to moving from viruththam/slokham to song , many have done it , I think the generation of TVS and TNS may have started . I have heard lot of concerts with TVS doing it, suryaprakash also does it a lot. What VK was talking was sandwiching tAnam between viruththam and song or VTS as he says. May be one can also include Slokham -Taanam - Song , it is either VTS or STS

On a side note ,I am logically assuming that a singer goes with a detailed alapana to refresh the memory of the singer to sing a detailed composition incorporating rAga bhavam in the pallavi or krithi with neraval and swaras . So I guess starting with alapana is a pragmatic and realistic option . Of course you can also counter by saying in many concerts, many musicians sing krithi with detailed Neraval and Swara without preceding raga alapana. Those are too less cases.

But to me these experimentation's can be one off ones , not sure how we as rasikas will react if it is repeated regularly.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Apr 2013, 00:18

Thanks CRama and Rajesh. CRama, you have amazing recollections of such specific incident. Awesome. Thanks. I will try to check them out.

One thing about my VTS idea. The T is not the regular thanam but a continuation of the viruththam in the thanam pattern. One can think of it as singing thanam with words, but I think of it as a continuation of the free form viruththam into the thanam pattern. The one example I thought of, though not exactly the same, is the Arunagirinatha old tamil film song, muthai-tharu pathi thiru-Nagai athi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vRkCV3symk

That comes close to cite an example. But it does not have to be necessarily thiruppugazh like lyrics. It can use very sparse lyrics which can also be repeated. In fact, one way to do this is to bring the Nirval lyrical techniques and the tanam layam aesthetics together. But that is all upto the creativity and talent of the artist. We are ready to be surprised and served.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 02 Apr 2013, 10:12

While singing a RTP, a slokam can not replace the detailed raga elaboration. SEcondly, customary tanam prescribes certain words to be used while singing tanam. YOu can not use all sorts of words in the tanam format. Then we have to coin a new word for that- not tanam. When raga elaboration for 15 minutes on a stand alone basis is done and if audience happily enjoys that, then what prevents one from singing ragam alapana before a pallavi. This is just to introduce a change for the sake of change. There is no justification for such experiments.

I agree with Rajesh that what MLV and TNS have done, can be rare instances. Can not be made as a format.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 02 Apr 2013, 10:33

vasanthakokilam wrote:
One thing about my VTS idea. The T is not the regular thanam but a continuation of the viruththam in the thanam pattern.

Sanjay did something like this in his 2012 Nadasudha concert at Velachery. He sang a virutham in Todi, followed it up with a super-fast kriti sung in tanam style and then proceeded to Karthikeya Gangeya. Sounded great!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Apr 2013, 11:21

Thanks Suresh. Yes, that is more along the lines of my thinking. I would have very much liked to listen to it. May be we can put in a request to Sanjay through his blog site. Thanks for the reference to that concert.

CRama, I understand your reluctance. It is OK if it is not called thanam, as you say people can call it something else. Also, this need not be a replacement for RTP. But I think you are too quick to dismiss it as 'change for change sake'. At least in my mind, it is not just so. I think singing sparse lyrics in tanam format can be quite aesthetically pleasing.

On your last point and also to what rajesh says, things are actually the reverse. Since there are no divine rules prescribing a format and there is really no arbiter of the correct format or taste, any experimentation will live or die on its own merits. And that merit will be decided by the audience at large. So it is not about how we the audience will react if such things are sung frequently, but rather they will sing it frequently only if the audience reacts to it positively. It is a complex process and takes time for anything different to become part of the mainstream. That is why I am sympathetic to TMK's efforts even if any particular item is not to my liking. These efforts should not be judged on the things that do not work out well. One has to try different things and an artist of his caliber can hit up something that works. Or may be not. Without trying we will never know.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Apr 2013, 13:14

In principle, I'm sympathetic to innovation too. After all, tradition only consists of the innovations that stuck and passed the test of time: there is no reason why it should be frozen.

Having said that, your earlier ideas about thanum made me think, "that sounds like it would be a mess," and consider founding a Save Our Thanam Society! I do think that the thanum is such a unique form and wonderful just as it is. You might guess (or even have read me saying so before) that I don't even welcome percussion accompaniment for thanum, even when it is encouraged by artists such as TVG whom I respect and admire. After reading SureshVV's comments, though, I have to say, simply --- if it works, it works! And if something works, even if it might be outlandish in principle, then nothing more needs to be said about it. And, as you say, without trying we would never know.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 02 Apr 2013, 18:11

Namaskaram to the members of the Rasikas.org forum. I have been following the forum for many years now and very interested in Carnatic music. I studied both vocal and violin for some time also. I love listening to Carnatic music recordings and have a large collection which I've built up with my family's help over the years.

I've been listening to concerts since I was a kid and I was wondering -- How would it be that instead of starting off with raga alapana, we instead go for Tanam followed by the song (TS). That would give an opportunity to do some extensive exploration of the raga via tanam and it has been done before by Semmangudi and TRS (though it hasn't become all that popular). This wouldn't require major changes to the concert pattern and it might give the tanam more room for a comeback. It's kind of sad to see that tanam isn't getting more than a couple of minutes' space in many concerts. Can anyone enlighten further on this?

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 03 Apr 2013, 14:21

From what my experience has been attending the last couple of years of TMK concerts, it looks TMK sees ragam and tanam as separate stand-alone items that can be performed independently. He's mentioned before that the raga (including alapana & tanam) used to be a separate performance once upon a time before it got integrated with krithis and wants to present it as such.

Speaking of innovation, there is plenty of room to explore in all the more complicated talas in the Carnatic system. What if the tani avartanam at the end of the main item can be made a stand alone item where the artistes could choose any tala they wanted? Now that could bring more popularity to the lesser explored talas.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Apr 2013, 19:27

Speaking of innovation, there is plenty of room to explore in all the more complicated talas in the Carnatic system. What if the tani avartanam at the end of the main item can be made a stand alone item where the artistes could choose any tala they wanted? Now that could bring more popularity to the lesser explored talas.

You are right in the limited sense that we will see the main artist showing different kriyas while he/she keeps the tala during thani. That is about it.

I don't think the thani will sound necessarily any different. I am sure a mridangist will correct me or augment what I say. Mridangist do not and need not pay much attention to the anga boundaries of a thala, except in some specific cases. Given that, the only thing that a different tala does is to increase or decrease the tala cycle length. That is not adding anything to a mridangist's arsenal because they can already do that today by taking multiple cycles of a talas in vogue today and breaking it up into pieces of different lengths and improvising on it.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Apr 2013, 19:25

Innovation in CM, like secksiness, when overtly pursued backfires!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Apr 2013, 12:05

I thought you said seasickness!

Given that, the only thing that a different tala does is to increase or decrease the tala cycle length.

There is a certain technical wonder in the adaptation of the standard pieces and motifs to the calculations of some unusual tala pattern, and, of course, the challenge to other percussionists. I was tempted to say that, otherwise, the aesthetic is unchanged, but quickly corrected myself: does rupaka talam sound or feel like adi talam? No, it doesn't: it has a different flow.

Perhaps the more "technical" a mridangist is, the less the difference in tala, because the emphasis then is on the calculations rather than the flow.

Popularity to Carnatic music audiences tends to go hand in hand with understandability. The audiences like a challenge, but not too much of a challenge. The hand frozen in mid air, unable to find the talam is likely to feel more frustration than pleasure and the tani audiences will get even smaller.

Not to mention the main artist: my guruji once said, "If you play stuff they cannot understand they won't ask you to accompany them again!"

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 08 Apr 2013, 17:09

I have a doubt. can the talam patterns of tirupugazh lend themselves for independent tani elaboration ?

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 08 Apr 2013, 18:25

Ponbhairavi wrote:I have a doubt. can the talam patterns of tirupugazh lend themselves for independent tani elaboration ?

Oh, yes, Pazhani Subramanya Pillai used to do it. One needs exposure to 'anga-tALam-s' of Thiruppugazh and experience
in playing for Thiruppugazh to be able to do it. Most mridangists will probably be nervous if asked to do a Thani for Thiruppugazh!...is my guess. Also the vocalist has to be 'good'. While during the song , the words in the appropriate ThALam
make it easy to keep the rhythm, it is not that easy to continue the thALam during a Thani.

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 08 Apr 2013, 21:04

Trichy Sankaran has mentioned in an interview that his Arangetram was for a concert of Alathur Brothers, LGJ, PSP and Sankaran @ Nanrudayar VInayagar temple @ Trichy and the tani was for the famous Tirupuggazh Paniyinvin Thiluragave (harikambomji ?)

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 08 Apr 2013, 21:22

Actually, the first tani in that concert with Sankaran-sir at the Nandrudayan temple was for paramAtmuDu veligE in vagadeeswari.
So, when TS played his kalAnidhi concert with Ravikiran last year, he dedicated this song to Sri TS.

More in detail here: http://srutimag.blogspot.ca/2011/12/par ... karan.html
TS also talks about this in this fascinating recent interview: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL98D272251C328D42

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Apr 2013, 22:52

>does rupaka talam sound or feel like adi talam? No, it doesn't: it has a different flow.

True. Thala Cycle lengths based on 2 and 3 have different flow. Probably 5, 7 and 9 too. This is all about the thala cycle length and not the anga structure. Anga structure is what defines a thala. Question then is: Do the mridangists play the thani any differently for two thalas which have the same cycle length but different anga structure. I somehow doubt it. That is the irony about CM percussion. Angas are thrust upon us, even the very beginner, as the foundation and building block of CM rhythm and a big deal is made of that. As a result that is how most people talk about CM rhythms. But the artists who are actively engaged in the discipline of CM rhythm deeply, namely the percussionists, do not care much about them

( they care about eduppu, samam, cycle length and possibly arudhi but that seems to be about it ).

I can readily perceive how a thani played for a Thiruppugazh can sound very different even to the average ear. That is actually consistent with what I wrote above. That is because the 'thalas' of Thiruppugazh mirrors the chandas of the song itself to a much closer extent than do thalas to krithis. One can say, the 'thala of thiruppugazh' plays to the song ( or vice versa ), just like how we say mridangist plays to the song rather than the thala. ( that is why Sharmaji prefers to call the Thiruppugazh rhythms Chandoroopah ). If the rhythmic structure itself 'plays' to the song, the mridangist who really plays to the song, now by definition plays to the defined rhythmic structure as well!! And a thani patterned after that can sound really interesting.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 09 Apr 2013, 04:39

It is not the question by whom the tani was played for the tiruppugazh-tala but the question is whether a tani could ever be played by any artist for a tiruppugazh-tala. Direct answer is a tani could never be played for a tiruppugazh-tala. In the absence of the proper knowledge of Talaprastara anybody, irrespective of his stature, may think that any Mridangist can very well play the tani for a tiruppugazh-tala like for all the other usual and popular Talas. It is absolutely incorrect. As the first person to bring out all the details of Talaprastara to the music world for the first time in the history, I can very well prove this beyond any doubt as it is of mathematics.

As almost all the musicians, irrespective of their individual stature, upon earth are not at all acquainted with this rare topic of Talaprastara they may not be aware of this fact that there are two varieties rhythmical-forms, 1. which could be rendered as Talas and 2. which should not be rendered as Talas as the established norms of Taladashapranas will not allow them to render. Even though I am not acquainted with all the tiruppugazh-rhythmical-forms I can very well tell that, though not all of them, many of them come under the 2nd category of the rhythmical-forms and, thus, they should not be rendered. If the details of Angas along with their value in terms of units of any rhythmical-form are furnished I shall tell to which category that rhythmical-form belongs. If anybody is truly interested in knowing these details can enter into the discussion and I shall give all the full details. If not, I shall stop here. amsharma

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 09 Apr 2013, 08:47

mahavishnu, there is an old AIR interview with Radio Vanoli Anna where Trichy Sankaran has talked about the tani avarthanam for Paniyinvin Thuliragave (Tirupugaz) in Alathur Brothers concert, perhaps as indicated in TS's interview, not for his arangetram.

The question posed was has a tani performed for Tirupugaz and the answer is yes, it has been done by Palani Subramania Pillai (based on TS interview).
There is an exclusive Tiruppugaz concert recording of Alathur Brothers with Lalgudi and Mani Iyer. TNS sings rare Tirupugaz, but mainly as the last concluding piece.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 09 Apr 2013, 09:44

TNS also has given exclusive Thirupugazh concerts. I do have one.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 09 Apr 2013, 12:07

I am ignorant about as to how Tani is different from a Tala Vadya Kacheri ..

Here is one...Trichy Sankaran-V Suresh Tala Vadya Ensemble...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ofnsOxIrY

Please educate me...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Apr 2013, 13:32

A tani is the percussion solo bit in a music concert: a Tala Vadya Kacheri is a percussion concert with a bit of music.

--- I tried to find a "clever" way to write it. I don't think it came out very clever, but I hope it gives the idea

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 09 Apr 2013, 15:02

I think that we have deviated from "Experimenting with Concert Formats'....

Here is a clip from National program...

SRI V.Kamalakara Rao-Mirdangam Layavinayasam-National Program

01-Aadi_thalam.mp3

A brilliant performance....

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 10 Apr 2013, 11:51

Deviated(?) not far away.
The suggestion under consideration is whether a musician like TMK can sing a thiruppugazh in the middle of a concert and give a thani in that.
The alternative is ,since 2 thanis are welcome, whether the singer can give the second thani after a thiruppugazh at the fag end.
As pointed out by VK,, since playing for a thirupugazh needs a different approach(chandas based) ,rasikas can enjoy two types of thanis which would also inspire talented mridangist to exhibit their skill

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Apr 2013, 13:18

rasikas can enjoy two types of thanis

It is tough enough to get many rasikas to enjoy even one.

carnatricks · Post by **carnatricks** » 10 Apr 2013, 14:20

maybe because rasikas are sometimes in the dark about the intricacies of the thani. any efforts to help them understand better? i simply sometimes just enjoy the sound of the instruments during the thani

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Apr 2013, 14:28

i simply sometimes just enjoy the sound of the instruments during the thani

I believe that that is the correct foundation.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 10 Apr 2013, 14:42

Innovations are always at their Minds of seasoned Artists...Even as in 2008. RA and GA

were considering singing two RTPs in their concerts during the season...perhaps with two thanis...

" We are planning to sing two RTPs which we have never sung before and perhaps, some abhangs. We perform at eight or nine places and Our aim is to infuse energy and freshness in each concert." The Hindu of Monday, Dec 01, 2008..

I am not getting 2008 recordings...If any one is having, kindly share.....

2) The phenomena of more than one thani does not appear to be new.....This is what Shri Karaikudi Mani says..."To say something more on the duration of Thani, it is said that the great Plaghat Mani Iyer used to say " what is there to play in a thani beyond ten minutes?" But we should see the period of his statement. It was during his last years. Firstly, it has come out of his experience. Second factor is ageing. So without seeing the time & context of his statement we cannot use it to criticize the rest. Because, I have listened to Sri Mani Iyer playing Thani for 30 minutes & 40 minutes in his prime time. He has also played 2 to 3 Thani Avarthanams in a single concert, each for about 6-7 minutes. So to say that there is nothing to play beyond 10 minutes is unacceptable."( http://www.indian-heritage.org/music/layam2.htm )

I have a thani played in a Chembai concert lasting to 30 mts., ....raga Kalyani..As the name of artists is not known, I have not posted so far...

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 10 Apr 2013, 18:58

Ponbhairavi wrote:Deviated(?) not far away.
The suggestion under consideration is whether a musician like TMK can sing a thiruppugazh in the middle of a concert and give a thani in that.
The alternative is ,since 2 thanis are welcome, whether the singer can give the second thani after a thiruppugazh at the fag end.
As pointed out by VK,, since playing for a thirupugazh needs a different approach(chandas based) ,rasikas can enjoy two types of thanis which would also inspire talented mridangist to exhibit their skill

Another approach: Madurai Somu used to remark often in his annual Thiruppugazh concerts in Vadapazhani that most of the Thiruppugazh lines serve naturally for RTP. I remember Sanjay singing the first two lines of "apakAra nindhai pattuzhalAdhE". (a famous Thiruppugazh) as RTP in Chakravaham at Toronto in 95. One can do a Thani after such 'Thiruppugazh' RTP-s in the middle of a concert.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Apr 2013, 19:54

carnatricks wrote:maybe because rasikas are sometimes in the dark about the intricacies of the thani. any efforts to help them understand better? i simply sometimes just enjoy the sound of the instruments during the thani

Taking a clue from Krithis, thanis can be structured to provide a well defined Refrain ( like the pallavi line of a krithi that the song comes back to after the anupallavi and charanam ). Refrain lines of krithis are usually quite attractive and that is what people remember the song by for the most part. There may already be rhythmic refrain in the thani now but I do not hear it clearly. Not that it is going to magically make thanis popular overnight but it gives something for the average listener to latch on to. That refrain needs to be an attractive pattern. It will even work better if that pattern is somehow established by the artist during kalpanaswaras. People will then feel a continuity with the main song, it will help people initially tolerate what is in between two refrains and over time learn to appreciate what is in between.

This is just a kernel of an idea. It can be grown, morphed and adjusted by a creative artist keeping the ordinary rasika in mind while not losing the hard core rasika. It can be done, I do not have any doubts about it.

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 11 Apr 2013, 01:28

" "apakAra nindhai pattuzhalAdhE". (a famous Thiruppugazh) as RTP in Chakravaham"
the other one is "kAdhi mOdhi vAdhADu" in sankarAbharanam.

carnatricks · Post by **carnatricks** » 11 Apr 2013, 02:14

i have nt heard kadhi modhi as a pallavi but the apakara nindhai in chakravaham has been released by sanjay with charsur as part of their rtp series i remember

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 11 Apr 2013, 16:26

This is just a kernel of an idea. It can be grown, morphed and adjusted by a creative artist keeping the ordinary rasika in mind while not losing the hard core rasika. It can be done, I do not have any doubts about it.

Now will anybody take it to the notice of TMK, Sanjay, Vijay Siva , TNS or Chinglepet Ranganathan

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 16 Apr 2013, 09:37

In response to post #33 :

VK's idea was put into practice at a concert by the Priya sisters at the SSVT, Maryland.

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21191 (post #5)

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 16 Apr 2013, 10:25

No offense intended but I think post #33 idea predates VK by at least a century

VK just independently "discovered" it after listening to a slew of sangeethapriya recordings.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Apr 2013, 10:58

Suresh: Not offensive at all but very presumptuous

I can only guess what you may be getting at. I do not recall hearing any such refrain that is a central attractor/anchor in an easily discernible manner. It has to be obvious to the average listener and not complicated. Otherwise I would have definitely missed it. I will only be glad to hear them, if you can post some links. Thanks.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 16 Apr 2013, 13:39

TMK has started announcing his concerts as MUSICAL OFFERINGS so that we will not argue about the concert paddhathi hereafter.

squims · Post by **squims** » 16 Apr 2013, 18:42

I listened to a thani somewhat similar to the ideas expressed here at RSM last year. The playing by both artistes ended with the same kind of usage done by the main artistes in their swara kuraippu. A bit hard to explain in words. Anyhow, here's the thread relating to that concert:
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... i+gayathri

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 17 Apr 2013, 11:45

CRama wrote:TMK has started announcing his concerts as MUSICAL OFFERINGS so that we will not argue about the concert paddhathi hereafter.

What would this be in Tamil or sanskrit?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Apr 2013, 12:06

May be this will work:

अर्पण arpaNa n. offering
sangIta arpaNa when joined becomes sangItArpaNa (?)

I think variations of the same word works in Tamil also: sangIta arpaNai, sangIthaththai ungaLukku arpaNikkirEn etc.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 19 Apr 2013, 16:31

"sangeetharpanam-Krishnarpanam(T M )"

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 19 Apr 2013, 18:03

What will Tamil or English expressions be for : 'sangeetha tharpaNam"?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Apr 2013, 21:01

anRirundOrku inRen kANikkai?

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 19 Apr 2013, 21:29

Found this quite easily:

"Tharpanam

Tharpanam means “That offering which satisfies”. But what we mean by the word Tharpanam is the offering of water mixed with gingelly to the manes.(dead ancestors)."

Looks like we mean it as a specific offering to specific people, but the word is really more general.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Apr 2013, 01:31

Ranganayaki,
Pasupathy used the word in jest, and I went along with it, that's all there's to it. Ponbhairavi's KrishNArpaNam started it all!

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 20 Apr 2013, 08:00

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 20 Apr 2013, 10:35

let me propose a wider choice:
Musical offering
sangeetha samarpanam
isai virundhu-isai nugarvu--isai inbam- isai pagirvu-
Isai vazhangal-- isai vaarthal-- isaiyaanubhavam--isai oviyam
we can add INN before all