Is it the 12 notes !

[Meera]

Our musicians esp.of CM land in an alien country and after interacting with the musicians there or by just listening to their music are at ease to play their ntional anthem or their folk or classical music that evening itself.I was just wondering whether this is just due to our capability to notate any music in the 12 notes or is it some thing beyond that !

[Rsachi]

A simple explanation is that most national anthems are designed for playing by military bands and easy to sing with common scales, no half notes, and simple sarva laghu talas.

[vasanthakokilam]

Meera, if you are asking how is it possible for some one unfamiliar with some music is able to play it, yes, it is indeed due to the commonality of the 12 notes ( notwithstanding the tuning differences ). That is also what allows a violinist to follow along to a raga or song he/she has never heard of before.

What is harder is to get the specific intonations and style of playing that is unique to some systems which require some learning. But playing back the melody ( and not chords ) of a folk tune or classical music or national anthem is probably child's play for a musician ( especially a CM violinist who has that skill in plenty ). I wish I have that skill. That will be awesome.

[anandasangeetham]

Smt MSS's rendition of an english song at United Nations concert is proof for this. I understand that she had listened to that song just before the concert and gave the performance during the concert.

[Rsachi]

Emani Shankara Shastry, with his rich experience in directing musicians in orchestration, told me once how unlike Westerners who always needed printed music, Indian musicians could reproduce any tune by just hearing it or remembering it. Further, Carnatic musicians (unlike in HM) were able to deconstruct and say the swaras and also read and play from swaras notation, a learnt skill in his opinion.

However I must add that when our musicians reproduce foreign tunes in a jiffy and we applaud, I do suspect that the native music experts could well not say it but feel the actual musical depth of flavour and true interpretation missing. Like we hear our languages spoken with right grammar and even sounds by foreigners but find the soul missing.
I have heard many say how the Indian saree sits uncomfortably on western ladies, however elegantly they try.

[vasanthakokilam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... JfhU#t=27s

[cienu]

Smt MSS's rendition of an English song at United Nations concert is proof for this. I understand that she had listened to that song just before the concert and gave the performance during the concert.

The hymn "May the Lord forgive our sins" was composed by Rajaji for the UN concert and set to tune by Handel Manuel (AIR Madras) and rehearsed many times over by Smt MSS and Smt Radha Viswanathan at Kalki Gardens in the Music Room with the Handel Manuel himself playing the Steinweg baby grand piano of MSS.
At the UN however, the piano was played by Harold Stramm.
As a practice any new song/composition was practised and polished maybe 100 times by MS before actually taking it to stage.

[Rsachi]

Thanks, Cienu.
MSS the legend is fabulous, but MSS the human, flesh-and-blood star who rose to great heights by diligence, dedication and creativity is indeed divine.

[Nick H]

... unlike Westerners who always needed printed music, Indian musicians could reproduce any tune by just hearing it or remembering it.

How do people jump to such wild misconceptions? And such vast generalisations on the basis of them?

If this is true, then how is it supposed that any "westerner" ever hums a tune without whipping out a sheet of music and being able to read it? Some can even play the tune on a piano or guitar without having any clue of the notation. I seem to remember stories of blues and rock musicians who had to have people watch and listen so that the notation could be made, because, although performers and composers, they were quite unable to literally read or write the music. What about generations, centuries even, of folk musicians? Music passed from mouth to ear.

Further, Carnatic musicians (unlike in HM) were able to deconstruct and say the swaras and also read and play from swaras notation, a learnt skill in his opinion.

I'm not a musician: I can't read music and I can't play, but I have always enjoyed listening to musicians, and learning something about what they do. The ordinary person can hear a tune and sing it, or even learn the song, the amateur musician can probably pick that tune out on a keyboard, or even say the note names, so even this is not really true of Western music/people and certainly not true of western musicians. It might well be true of non-musician audiences, because it is not part of the appreciation culture, even in jazz, to discuss afterwards like, "Oh, he took that phrase doh me sa do la blah blah". It is also not a regular skill to be able to listen to an extended improvisation, take it in and memorise it whilst accompanying it at the same time, and then play it back, as every carnatic violinist does every day. Perhaps jazz musicians, who improvise on stage, and who have to remember at least the basic "shape" of the chord progressions would not be so amazed at such an ability.

Watch a concerto. The entire orchestra is playing (whether they remember the piece, which probably many do, or not) from paper --- but the soloist is not. The soloist has to learn 30-60 minutes of complex music, and play it from memory. Of course, it is not 30-60 minutes that he has just heard, it is 30-60 minutes that has devoted hours days and years of study and practice to.

One of Mozart's abilities was to immediately remember the music that he heard. He could reproduce it, and even write it down including all the orchestral parts. That is probably exceptional if not unique.

However I must add that when our musicians reproduce foreign tunes in a jiffy and we applaud, I do suspect that the native music experts could well not say it but feel the actual musical depth of flavour and true interpretation missing. Like we hear our languages spoken with right grammar and even sounds by foreigners but find the soul missing.

Maybe so. Maybe that is why I dislike Western Note (the one we usually hear), even though I very much enjoy the kind of folk music that it is based on

have heard many say how the Indian saree sits uncomfortably on western ladies, however elegantly they try.

Like music, it appears to be a matter of practice. Those who live in the area can observe the foreign Kalakshetra students, often looking even more elegant than their local sisters!

[Rsachi]

Nick, they were observations of Emani from his working with different types of musicians. Period.
As I was typing the earlier msg, I also remembered Mozart.

As they say, sometimes exceptions make the rule.
Good you brought up Kalakshetra students. That just shows how one can work at a thing and absorb it so fully. Then these generalisations would evaporate!

An aside: they showed today on TV Yesudas singing Viriboni looking at a laptop. A perplexed question arose: WHY? I said, practice... singing film songs from lyrics/music sheets, for so many decades...

[Nick H]

Rsachi, I have heard people from religious discoursers through musicians to just plain folk make generalisations about "western culture" that are based on supposition and ignorance. When that person is, apparently wise and gifted in other ways, it seems a shame, but I feel the same about it as I do about clever-sounding but bad analogies. Of course, I feel the same about similar being done with Indian culture.

Understood that you were quoting an eminent name. Agreement and disagreement is all grist to the conversation. I only wish I had the musical knowledge on either side of the cultural boundary to respond with better information.

Laptops are invading the stage. I think it began with recorded tambura sounds, and, having got a toe in, the laptops thought they'd start carrying lyrics too. Goodness knows what might come next!

[arasi]

Nick,
It's unsettling to hear people say: you know these americans! (substitute any nationality here)--just in the way when you hear others say: these indians!

You are right in pointing out that ignorance generates such statements.

To be proud of one's heritage is admirable. To establish it as something superior than other cultures is shabby.

In the west too, one may sing in the bathroom without looking at water-proof sheets of music. Classical musicians who live and play music with printed music in front of them may need them as much as CM musicians do!

It has got something to do with traditions, I think. Interesting that this very tradition of putting things down on paper has helped in recording events, thus history. On the other hand, so much of India's rich history is in the dark, and what we have is sometimes subject to speculation. Even a thing which happened so recently (MS's singing Rajaji's song at the UN) was reported incorrectly somewhere. Thanks to Cienu for clarifying.

Still, all cultures do emphasize practice, practice (sAdhakam, riyAz), however gifted a musician may be!

[Nick H]

There speaks one of my favourite Americans

(our smileys have gone a bit strange since the forum theme rejig!)

[Rsachi]

Interesting reactions to what a musician and orchestra director said about notations. It is important that we don't stray away from the basic idea of learning a new melody or piece of music through notation vs. oral tradition.
I just found this book at Google Books : The Dawn of Indian Music in the West by Peter Lavezzoli. I found this, about how Yehudi felt comfortable with notation:

[arasi]

Enjoyed readig this.

Thanks Sachi for including me in your special list!
As for favorites, I miss my old oft-used wink smiley. I make do with the exclamation mark now.

[Nick H]

That is a fascinating piece of history, and an evocative piece of writing. What a performance that would have been to see!

Looks as if RS had written the music down, and what was done was a translation from Indian notation to Western.

I suppose... notation is one of the strengths of the Western system.

[vasanthakokilam]

>I suppose... notation is one of the strengths of the Western system

Interestingly, Yehudi Menuhin went beyond the written notation and participated fully in the improvisational call and response in Tilang. I guess once he got into the Tilang groove, he could ride on it. That aspect answers the question posed by Meera in the first post.

[arasi]

And Tilang is a straight forward rAgA, easier to grasp, easier steps to take up and down the scale.

Also, a brilliant musician that he was, Menuhin was not exposed to Indian music (until he got drawn to it) and the audience, much more so--as compared to even the uninitiated in today's global village! Modest Menuhin always was, and so his reserve and nervousness, I suppose!

[Rsachi]

So lets celebrate by listening to the track Swara-kakali (have been listening to this for 45 years!)
http://youtu.be/TfAgGBYyZDE

[Meera]

That is really amazing.yes VK I feel like I have got some answer for my qn.I always used to think whether it is possible to notate the kritis of trinity and take them globally

[vasanthakokilam]

Just so we are very clear, there are there different aspects.

1) Are CM/HM and other music systems, for the most part, built on top of the base of the same 12 notes? The answer is Yes.

Indeed that is what enables a talented western musician to play a melody, whether it is CM, HM, Folk etc, by the ear. And the same way for a CM music an to play a western melody by the ear.

We take this similarity of 12 notes for granted these days, but that in itself is quite an amazing thing, that they are indeed similar and this close.

That is at a 1000 foot level, without considering tuning differences which bring about small but significant differences in the actual frequencies that each of those 12 notes take.

2) The point that Emani Shankara Shastry was making, as quoted by Rsachi, needs to be understood in the right context, otherwise it would not make sense if interpreted in a direct manner like Nick did. What Sri. Emani is talking about is one of natural inclination and the culture of that music. He is specifically talking about the western classical music practice. It is not that the western classical musicians lack the basic ability to reproduce a piece of music that they hear, not considering the gamakas etc. No, not at all. That will be a silly notion. The objective of the written system is to ensure that the composer's intent is preserved as closely as possible and as precisely as possible. Any dynamics and variations, if at all, are brought out by the actions of the conductor and not the performers. So, there is not much of a freedom for the performers. They can not afford that freedom. But within that constraint, the conductor can induce some changes. That is why the conductors' names are prominent and not that much the individual performers. That is the context Sri. Emani must have had in his mind and not some notion that they lack the ability to reproduce the music they hear.

In CM also, there is that desire which is captured in the phrase 'pAdAntaram'. There is an attempt to preserve each sangathi to be sung exactly the same way ( with in a particular school, at least ). But without a written notation, it does tend to deviate.

3) The third one is the question: 'Can CM be taken globally if only it can be notated with much more accuracy?'. I think it is a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition. Very accurate notation schemes using modern technologies that captures the essence of CM that is built on top of the base 12 notes are indeed to be highly encouraged and significant progress has to be made. Akellaji has done a lot of work in that regard. Performers of course need to go order of magnitude beyond that in actual performance but the notation scheme helps them get on board. So it will help in that ' on boarding' sense in the globalization context as well. ( globalization, not as in the diaspora learning CM but a much wider reach beyond the diaspora ).

That is necessary for people interested in the music to put there toes in the water. The sufficient conditions are quite numerous which need to be built on top of that. That is from the student and performer's point of view.

What about the non-diaspora audience? That is a totally different topic.

[Nick H]

There is something in what you say, although it is still a long-after-the-fact interpretation. It is probably more right than the original statement!

Notation, whether of solo or orchestral music, really does leave quite a lot of room for personal expression and interpretation. One of the areas of freedom (well, relative freedom) in W music is rhythm, which can be adjusted to a greater extent. Dynamics are also more used and more flexible. I have never really done comparative listening in W music (perhaps because the records/CDs were so expensive to buy that I had to be content with one recording) but, recently, I was listening to three recordings of a favourite symphony and was really surprised at the extent of the difference, not only in detail but in the overall feeling of the music.

I think that notation is generally regarded as one of the strengths of the W system, isn't it? The fact that we can see what the composer wrote, both musical dots plus any remarks, even if it cannot guarantee exact reproduction of what was in his mind (just as reading each others' words cannot guarantee that what was thought is accurately communicated) but it is a huge step on the way.

Here are two questions for you:

--- What might have been the effect on CM if it had the same kind of highly detailed notation as WM?

--- What would the result be like if W musicians were able to read and play a detailed notation of CM?

[vasanthakokilam]

although it is still a long-after-the-fact interpretation. It is probably more right than the original statement!

True. It was a bit intentional and deliberate on my part considering various aspects including the person, time and context. It is like if someone quotes Feynman that only sounds right after a bit of interpretation, I owe it to Mr. F to put in that extra effort to understand him. That is the posture I was taking. Anyway, not a big deal either way.

So the broad and relevant point is, a western classical musician typically plays out of a written notation where as a CM musician does not. I would even say a CM musician would be uncomfortable to play out of written notation. Even when given a skeletal notation, they would need to know the raga so they can apply the right gamakas to it. On the other hand, my niece, who learned WCM on the flute, feels comfortable playing CM on the flute from written notations, though she is perfectly comfortable singing CM without notation. She has been working to get off that mind set when playing CM on the flute. So there is a lot more to this than the basic ability to play a piece of melody one hears. I would consider that skill to be a kinder-garten level consideration for a talented musician. I do not see any reason why Emani would not have known that.

To me, the Menuhin story shows two aspects about this. That even a top notch talent like him felt the need for a written notation ( the Emani statement ) and on the other side, the top notch talent he was, he used the written notation platform to go beyond it.

One of the areas of freedom (well, relative freedom) in W music is rhythm, which can be adjusted to a greater extent.

What are you referring to? The choice of Beats per minute?

I have a colleague who is a huge WCM fan and his criteria is based how truly the orchestra reproduce the written score ( or at least what he has been hearing ). I then asked just to poke him 'Would that not be boring? Wouldn't then every performance sound the same'. His answer is, no. The conductor is the one who makes the difference, and of course the relative skills of the performers. What you call as 'dynamics' is what he was alluding to, I think, but induced by the conductor. Not only on stage live, but he is their leader and so his interpretation of the score is what gets played. So the performers are sheep alright, sheep to the score and sheep to the conductor ( just kidding )

I then asked him, how about the same piece by the same orchestra by the same conductor played at different times, say within a year. He was not 100% sure but he said he would expect it to sound more or less the same.

--- What might have been the effect on CM if it had the same kind of highly detailed notation as WM?

--- What would the result be like if W musicians were able to read and play a detailed notation of CM?

Hard to tell, but the preservation of 'pAdantaram' would have been easier and more deterministic. This is the desire to keep things in tact by a particular school including the number of sangathis and how each sangathi has to be sung.

With respect to the effect of notations, I see Chinese orchestras performing western classical music pieces brilliantly. That of course would not have been possible without the tradition of strong notations. Subject to two important pre-conditions

1) The CM and its nuances are notat-able
2) The music itself has wide appeal globally

Then I can see the possibility of a simialar phenomenon. People from different parts of the world learning and performing CM outside of a South India centric situation ( and its diaspora ) that it is today. This is a hypothetical observation since those two pre-conditions are huge.

But at least we can speculate a bit more confidently that may be Indian classical music would have had better roots ( rather than just showing some minor influences ) in countries like Thailand where there has been a historical connection between the respective cultures.

[Nick H]

The thing about an oral tradition is that one can never go back a few generations and cross-check. The compositions of the great carnatic composers may be as accurate as if they had left us manuscripts: what is the thinking on this, generally?

By dynamics, I mean, simply, loud and soft. I think it is the technical term for it. Now I read your interpretation, though, I guess that it can also be used to describe the driving force behind something. Written without dictionary, please correct if wrong. In the loud-quiet sense, dynamic range, WM has much more variety. By freedom of rhythm, yes, I mean the freedom to slow down or speed up: it is a limited freedom, but it is there. There is rubato and ...oh, I forget the opposite! And stuff like swing.

What you say about the role of an orchestra conductor is in line with what I have heard too. I cannot remember the context (maybe a TV programme or maybe I read it) but, when asked if they could not play a piece without a conductor, orchestral musicians have replied that, yes, of course they can ...but it is the conductor that brings his interpretation. He can only work with the musicians available to him though, and orchestras are known to have natures too.