Radio Grading
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ramamantra
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Radio Grading
Why is it that people are extremely reverent and give a lot of importance to the all india radio grades although it is highly ridden with politics and rarely based on merits? Why does it seem like a coveted treasure? There seems a major lack of transparency, be it in the process or measurement standards. But, still people give a lot of weightage to it. Beats my common sense...
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mohan
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Re: Radio Grading
If you have a radio grading, you get opportunities to perform in AIR. The remuneration for these performances is dependent on the grade.
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ramamantra
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Re: Radio Grading
Common knowledge and that's not the point. The grading seems to be held high in the Carnatic community as a whole. Its required even for performances, slotting, etc. A whole musical career based on lies, politics and corruption...mohan wrote:If you have a radio grading, you get opportunities to perform in AIR. The remuneration for these performances is dependent on the grade.
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Rsachi
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Re: Radio Grading
I know how Hyd AIR 'shelved' the auction result file approving B High for a deserving veena artiste from 1978 to 1982. When I went and approached the then director Hyd AIR Sri S. RAJARAM (later Kalakshetra director), he forced the reluctant executive to unearth the file and give the audition result.
Later when someone wanted to apply for audition for veena in Chennai, the candidate was told that the already approved veena artistes weren't getting a slot to perform even once in 2-3 years so she shouldn't even try.
Despite all these stories I do feel the AIR grade is a governmental stamp of approval that every artiste aspires to. Unfortunately no rating or approval system in a country of 1.23 billion poor and socially unsupported people cam have a process beyond complaint.
Later when someone wanted to apply for audition for veena in Chennai, the candidate was told that the already approved veena artistes weren't getting a slot to perform even once in 2-3 years so she shouldn't even try.
Despite all these stories I do feel the AIR grade is a governmental stamp of approval that every artiste aspires to. Unfortunately no rating or approval system in a country of 1.23 billion poor and socially unsupported people cam have a process beyond complaint.
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ramamantra
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Re: Radio Grading
Well, 1.23 bn dont sing Carnatic. Only a handful do. And, every system anywhere in the world is prone to complaint. There is no doubt about it. But, there is a certain basic thing called transparency or rather, not being secretive. Revolutions and revolts have all taken place for some basic values - equality, fairness, transparency, and so on. Being a democratic society is one. But, this Carnatic radio world acts really funny. There is simply no openness in judging criteria. Nobody knows when the audition results will come, who are the judges, what is the criteria of selection, etc. Lobbying is all that matters. That is your stamp of approval from the democratic government.
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Rsachi
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Re: Radio Grading
Yes, really a sorry state of affairs. We also read about SK politics at MA in another thread some months ago.
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ramamantra
- Posts: 281
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Re: Radio Grading
SK politics and radio grading politics are not the same. Radio grading is also for musicians who want a basic stamp of approval, who want to build a music career. SK is an award for outstanding musicians. Grading affects musicians' careers and their livelihood. It is not fun. Sons and daughters of staff artists get graded and upgraded smoothly, in their first attempts itself. Other popular gurus manage to get their prominent family members/disciples graded easily. How do these poor brahmins manage so much of lobbying, I wonder.
I have often observed a hushed silence whenever a group of musicians discuss radio grading. There is always an awed silence combined with vague expressions and a sudden possessive/coveted feeling. There is no exchange of any kind of information. Applicants do their homework independently, approach people, grease gurus, and pursue with patience. There is no forum on how to prepare or what to expect, etc. Even if somebody (me) initiates a discussion in this forum, it is either a subject all too known and thus, general, or something too secretive to exchange notes. What is at stake? Pride, rejection, elimination, reputation.... something I have never understood of the Carnatic world, esp radio.
I have often observed a hushed silence whenever a group of musicians discuss radio grading. There is always an awed silence combined with vague expressions and a sudden possessive/coveted feeling. There is no exchange of any kind of information. Applicants do their homework independently, approach people, grease gurus, and pursue with patience. There is no forum on how to prepare or what to expect, etc. Even if somebody (me) initiates a discussion in this forum, it is either a subject all too known and thus, general, or something too secretive to exchange notes. What is at stake? Pride, rejection, elimination, reputation.... something I have never understood of the Carnatic world, esp radio.
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harimau
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Re: Radio Grading
Generally, one goes to the local radio station, gets the application form, fills it out and files it.
The application is reviewed and a date for audition is set. The artist is supposed to give a list of krithis and ragams in which he/she is ready to undergo a test. The administrators at the radio station decide what the applicant will sing or play on the instrument. Staff artists are assigned as pakka vadhyams.
The audition tape is assigned a number and sent out of town to another radio station where a panel is chosen and asked to review the recording. Based on the recommendation of the panel, the artist is assigned a grade. Usually, one starts at grade B, progresses to B High (you have to wait 5 years for that before you can audition for that), then wait another 5 years before you apply for the grade of A. One has to wait 18 years or so at the grade of A before being eligible for A Top.
Some brilliant musicians get B High or A rather than B at the first audition itself.
Artists are known to shop around. Rather than apply at Chennai for Carnatic music, they try at Trichy, Bangalore, Hyderabad or even New Delhi. Thus, those who got their grades in Chennai tend to look down upon these provincial types!
Can anonymity be maintained? It can if there is a large pool of applicants. But if there is one applicant for keyboard, the reviewer can pretty much guess who it is. Same thing goes for violin, veena, saxophone or mandolin.
Even for vocal, it is possible to make note of what songs were sung and tell the review panel to look for the tape with those songs. But that means you need a bunch of cooperating reviewers.
Yes, there are shenanigans in the review process but quite a few artists actually make it on merit.
The application is reviewed and a date for audition is set. The artist is supposed to give a list of krithis and ragams in which he/she is ready to undergo a test. The administrators at the radio station decide what the applicant will sing or play on the instrument. Staff artists are assigned as pakka vadhyams.
The audition tape is assigned a number and sent out of town to another radio station where a panel is chosen and asked to review the recording. Based on the recommendation of the panel, the artist is assigned a grade. Usually, one starts at grade B, progresses to B High (you have to wait 5 years for that before you can audition for that), then wait another 5 years before you apply for the grade of A. One has to wait 18 years or so at the grade of A before being eligible for A Top.
Some brilliant musicians get B High or A rather than B at the first audition itself.
Artists are known to shop around. Rather than apply at Chennai for Carnatic music, they try at Trichy, Bangalore, Hyderabad or even New Delhi. Thus, those who got their grades in Chennai tend to look down upon these provincial types!
Can anonymity be maintained? It can if there is a large pool of applicants. But if there is one applicant for keyboard, the reviewer can pretty much guess who it is. Same thing goes for violin, veena, saxophone or mandolin.
Even for vocal, it is possible to make note of what songs were sung and tell the review panel to look for the tape with those songs. But that means you need a bunch of cooperating reviewers.
Yes, there are shenanigans in the review process but quite a few artists actually make it on merit.
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ramamantra
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Re: Radio Grading
common knowledge, harimau... and as usual, point missed. i-)
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harimau
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Re: Radio Grading
ramamantra wrote:
"Its required even for performances, slotting, etc. ..."
No.
Any number of vocalists and instrumentalists have an A grade from Madras AIR and still don't have concert opportunities.
For example, the late Smt Kalpakam Swaminathan (I am deliberately using a dead musician's name here, not wanting to offend those who are alive, have an A grade and don't have concert opportunities) performed twice or thrice a year at Raga Sudha Hall.
Being on the Expert Committee of the Music Academy didn't get her a concert slot there, let alone her A grade.
So there goes your assumption that any AIR grade is required for performances, slotting, etc.
"Its required even for performances, slotting, etc. ..."
No.
Any number of vocalists and instrumentalists have an A grade from Madras AIR and still don't have concert opportunities.
For example, the late Smt Kalpakam Swaminathan (I am deliberately using a dead musician's name here, not wanting to offend those who are alive, have an A grade and don't have concert opportunities) performed twice or thrice a year at Raga Sudha Hall.
Being on the Expert Committee of the Music Academy didn't get her a concert slot there, let alone her A grade.
So there goes your assumption that any AIR grade is required for performances, slotting, etc.
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harimau
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Re: Radio Grading
ramamantra wrote:
When artists are graded by an anonymous panel, you object to that. Why?
If you know who the judges are, the potential for backroom dealings are increased, not decreased.
Criteria for selection would be sruthi suddham, maintaining layam and similar ones related to music. Alapana, neraval and kalpana swarams are evaluated to determine manodharmam. If one passes, one gets the grade.
As to when the audition results will be announced, it is a question of how soon the review panel submits its reports and when somebody at the concerned radio station can be bothered to look at it. No better than any other government office.
AIR Chennai is known to have sent out letters to musicians (who had not applied) that they were deemed ineligible for promotion to A Top but they can apply again the next year. A deliberate insult? Probably not but a computer probably spat out list of artists who have stayed at the A grade for 18 years and some clerk sent out a form letter to all of them.
When you write your public examination (Plus 2, College, etc.), you don't know who is grading your paper and you accept that."Nobody knows when the audition results will come, who are the judges, what is the criteria of selection, etc. Lobbying is all that matters. That is your stamp of approval from the democratic government."
When artists are graded by an anonymous panel, you object to that. Why?
If you know who the judges are, the potential for backroom dealings are increased, not decreased.
Criteria for selection would be sruthi suddham, maintaining layam and similar ones related to music. Alapana, neraval and kalpana swarams are evaluated to determine manodharmam. If one passes, one gets the grade.
As to when the audition results will be announced, it is a question of how soon the review panel submits its reports and when somebody at the concerned radio station can be bothered to look at it. No better than any other government office.
AIR Chennai is known to have sent out letters to musicians (who had not applied) that they were deemed ineligible for promotion to A Top but they can apply again the next year. A deliberate insult? Probably not but a computer probably spat out list of artists who have stayed at the A grade for 18 years and some clerk sent out a form letter to all of them.
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harimau
- Posts: 1819
- Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43
Re: Radio Grading
ramamantra wrote:
I know a musician who failed in the first attempt because the guru didn't believe in radio grades and didn't prepare the student for the grading process. That guru felt people should learn music for self enlightenment. Not all feel that way and quite a few realize that in the practical world students learn music trying to make a living out of it, either by performing or by teaching. Most musicians are addicted to public acclaim and want to perform before the public. If nothing else, Nada Inbam will give them the opportunity, and if the reviews on this site are to be believed, every performer there including the "L Board" types is the greatest thing since Ariyakkudi. :p
In Mainland China, this is known as guanxi, connections. Same thing here." Sons and daughters of staff artists get graded and upgraded smoothly, in their first attempts itself. Other popular gurus manage to get their prominent family members/disciples graded easily"
I know a musician who failed in the first attempt because the guru didn't believe in radio grades and didn't prepare the student for the grading process. That guru felt people should learn music for self enlightenment. Not all feel that way and quite a few realize that in the practical world students learn music trying to make a living out of it, either by performing or by teaching. Most musicians are addicted to public acclaim and want to perform before the public. If nothing else, Nada Inbam will give them the opportunity, and if the reviews on this site are to be believed, every performer there including the "L Board" types is the greatest thing since Ariyakkudi. :p
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kamavardhani
- Posts: 92
- Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 22:57
Re: Radio Grading
harimau wrote:If nothing else, Nada Inbam will give them the opportunity, and if the reviews on this site are to be believed, every performer there including the "L Board" types is the greatest thing since Ariyakkudi. :p
) ) ) spot on!-
ramamantra
- Posts: 281
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 10:32
Re: Radio Grading
>When you write your public examination (Plus 2, College, etc.), you don't know who is grading your paper and you accept that.
But you know the selection criteria, in fact, criteria and tips to get 100% too...
>When artists are graded by an anonymous panel, you object to that. Why? If you know who the judges are, the potential for backroom dealings are increased, not decreased.
With that logic, you can then say that the Carnatic idol with the whole world knowing the judges/panel, is open to the dealings you speak of. But, that doesn't look like the case, huh?
>Criteria for selection would be sruthi suddham, maintaining layam and similar ones related to music. Alapana, neraval and kalpana swarams are evaluated to >determine manodharmam. If one passes, one gets the grade.
Overly simplistic!
>As to when the audition results will be announced, it is a question of how soon the review panel submits its reports and when somebody at the concerned radio station >can be bothered to look at it. No better than any other government office.
Agree with that.
But you know the selection criteria, in fact, criteria and tips to get 100% too...
>When artists are graded by an anonymous panel, you object to that. Why? If you know who the judges are, the potential for backroom dealings are increased, not decreased.
With that logic, you can then say that the Carnatic idol with the whole world knowing the judges/panel, is open to the dealings you speak of. But, that doesn't look like the case, huh?
>Criteria for selection would be sruthi suddham, maintaining layam and similar ones related to music. Alapana, neraval and kalpana swarams are evaluated to >determine manodharmam. If one passes, one gets the grade.
Overly simplistic!
>As to when the audition results will be announced, it is a question of how soon the review panel submits its reports and when somebody at the concerned radio station >can be bothered to look at it. No better than any other government office.
Agree with that.
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harimau
- Posts: 1819
- Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43
Re: Radio Grading
ramamantra wrote:
When an average person goes to a concert, he expects sruthi suddham, the ability to maintain layam, and good manodharmam. So the panel evaluates the candidates on that basis. If that is simplistic, that is all that can be done. The depth of knowledge is gauged from the simple fact that the applicant is required to submit a list of 25 ragas from which the AIR station personnel choose any 4 or 5 ragas for the audition. They are not looking at what kind of clothing the applicant is wearing in case you are wondering if pattu podavai would swing the decision in someone's favor. Maybe you can come up with criteria that needs to be considered by the review panel. Do send those suggestions in. They maintain a round file just for those kinds of letters.
What do you expect? A detailed examination of music theory as documented by Ramamatya, Venkatamakhin or in the Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarsini?
You know, a whole book has been written about people like you. It is called "The Argumentative Indian". (-|
Good God, this is the equivalent of a practical examination in Physics, Chemistry, Engineering or Medicine. It just happens to be in Music.>Criteria for selection would be sruthi suddham, maintaining layam and similar ones related to music. Alapana, neraval and kalpana swarams are evaluated to >determine manodharmam. If one passes, one gets the grade.
Overly simplistic!
When an average person goes to a concert, he expects sruthi suddham, the ability to maintain layam, and good manodharmam. So the panel evaluates the candidates on that basis. If that is simplistic, that is all that can be done. The depth of knowledge is gauged from the simple fact that the applicant is required to submit a list of 25 ragas from which the AIR station personnel choose any 4 or 5 ragas for the audition. They are not looking at what kind of clothing the applicant is wearing in case you are wondering if pattu podavai would swing the decision in someone's favor. Maybe you can come up with criteria that needs to be considered by the review panel. Do send those suggestions in. They maintain a round file just for those kinds of letters.
What do you expect? A detailed examination of music theory as documented by Ramamatya, Venkatamakhin or in the Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarsini?
You know, a whole book has been written about people like you. It is called "The Argumentative Indian". (-|
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ramamantra
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Re: Radio Grading
>Maybe you can come up with criteria that needs to be considered by the review panel. Do send those suggestions in. They maintain a round file just for those kinds of letters.
Shooting off one's mouth is not a great habit.
>You know, a whole book has been written about people like you. It is called "The Argumentative Indian".
Getting personal, eh? Writing a hundred posts just to reply to one is more 'argumentative' than making a point. Don't end up a :-@
Shooting off one's mouth is not a great habit.
>You know, a whole book has been written about people like you. It is called "The Argumentative Indian".
Getting personal, eh? Writing a hundred posts just to reply to one is more 'argumentative' than making a point. Don't end up a :-@
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harimau
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- Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43
Re: Radio Grading
when mohan replied to you that
Then you went on to display your complete ignorance by saying
You keep asking the same things all over again and again such as what is the criteria for approving a grade. When I give you the answer, your response is "overly simplistic" or "missed the point, as usual".
On top of that you compare Carnatic Idol competition (which would also imply other TV shows such as Supersinger, I suppose) to radio auditions and ask if Carnatic Idol can be judged in the wide open, why not radio auditions.
Really, it takes a special kind of stupidity to say that it should be easier to have backroom dealings in Carnatic Idol because the participants know who the judges are going to be and if that is not happening then radio auditions should be open too.
Getting personal? I have not yet begun. [-x
you were such a know-it-all that you saidIf you have a radio grading, you get opportunities to perform in AIR. The remuneration for these performances is dependent on the grade
Common knowledge and that's not the point.
Then you went on to display your complete ignorance by saying
and I pointed out that the AIR grade means nothing much when it comes to concert opportunities in sabhas. I gave one name but I can give you ten if you want.Its required even for performances, slotting, etc.
You keep asking the same things all over again and again such as what is the criteria for approving a grade. When I give you the answer, your response is "overly simplistic" or "missed the point, as usual".
On top of that you compare Carnatic Idol competition (which would also imply other TV shows such as Supersinger, I suppose) to radio auditions and ask if Carnatic Idol can be judged in the wide open, why not radio auditions.
Really, it takes a special kind of stupidity to say that it should be easier to have backroom dealings in Carnatic Idol because the participants know who the judges are going to be and if that is not happening then radio auditions should be open too.
Getting personal? I have not yet begun. [-x
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ramamantra
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Re: Radio Grading
I warn you not to get personal, hari...whoever. Moderators, pl check this guy coz if he ticks me off, he is going to get IT!
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Re: Radio Grading
This grading business is getting to be grating, I'm afraid. I absolutely do not have any intention of offending anyone's feelings here, but...
Whether they were Harimau's posts or someone else's, I saw some useful information about the grading business at AIR in them until--well, I still can't make out what the reason for the upset is about. May be I have to go back and read all the posts. May be not
Whether they were Harimau's posts or someone else's, I saw some useful information about the grading business at AIR in them until--well, I still can't make out what the reason for the upset is about. May be I have to go back and read all the posts. May be not
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Nick H
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- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Radio Grading
Oh... you should! It would be sad to miss out on a forum upset!
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vnk1001
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Re: Radio Grading
Not common knowledge, and point not missed. You say the process is not transparent -- he just explained the process in some detail. You say that the process is without merit, and he (and I) feel otherwise.