Carnatic vs Hindusthani music

[harimau]

It is well-known that Hindusthani musicians think that Carnatic music is full of apaswarams. They are known to have called it besur sangeeth.

I was pondering this question the other day and started looking up possible venues for answers why this might be so.

Hindusthani music uses mainly the gamakas meend and jaru. So I thought maybe they don't like the fact that we liberally employ kampitham which is an oscillation on a swara and they may consider this to be a fault. However, Hindusthani music does have the equivalent of kampitham and also has andolan which is a wider swing around a specific swara. So this cannot be the cause though one does not put anything past the average Hindusthani musicians in their search for a cause to denigrate South Indian music.

The other possibility that occurred to me is that there are ragas where the notional swara differs from the actual swara. For instance the rishabham in Gowlai or in Saveri does not sit exactly on where the note should be but is lower and are even called the Gowlai rishabham or the Saveri rishabham. We probably have hundreds of such situations.

Do you think this is what is bugging the Hindusthani musicians?

Replies from musicians, musicologists, and members of this forum are welcome and indeed eagerly awaited.

[Rsachi]

Harimau,
Great pointers in your post.
I do know western classical musicians think Indian music sounds full of false notes.
My own two rupees (one can buy a full meal with this amount as per prince Farooq) :
HM does not have the wide range of ragas as CM, especially ragas like our Bhairavi, Gowla etc. Their unfamiliar ears are unable to accommodate those sounds within their experiential melodic set. So the besur label. On the other hand, we are schooled through the compositions to become familiar with and even to like these ragas. So the disconnect.

It is like food flavours. I simply can't stand the oriental/far eastern kitchen smells. Similarly most Westerners actually dislike the strong aromas of Indian food.

There is another comment from Pandit Bhatkhande quoted elsewhere. He said our running through words with laya markers made it yoyyo type of singing.

[arasi]

sa ri....
Thanks for this thread, Harimau.

Sachi,
Nothing like culinary examples to illustrate a point.
CM "yoyo music"? AiyyO

[varsha]

Hindusthani musicians think that Carnatic music is full of apaswarams

Not correct .
They are only perturbed at the tolerance level of simple besur .
Something which many great names are guilty of . SK's too .
Stuff which is Besur to a CM rasikas ears itself . Which is tolerated even if nauseating , because some mathematical jugglery is on .
No wonder the Tanpura sruthi is barely audible in CM Concerts
Besur in CM is an issue that can be addressed without dragging HM into it .

[Sangeet]

I wonder if we can make such sweeping generalizations and speak on behalf of all the Hindusthani musicians. I enjoy both the types of sangeeth with equal fervor and passion.

[Rsachi]

Varsha,
Spot on.

To a question why many apaswaras creep into their play, a noted CM violinist replied that ideally they wouldn't accept it but so much is happening and they are doing so many different things that it is a casualty.
I also know one famous CM SK prospect was known to fault many singers about apaswaras notwithstanding his own frequent lapses.

[Rsachi]

Sangeeta,
The comments here merely reflect what we have heard from many HM musicians over many years in their unguarded asides.

[Sangeet]

Rsachi,

Okay. Then it is unfortunate that they said so.

[munirao2001]

Interest in any form of music occurs only with the listening opportunity, inspiration and opportunities the music offers. CM performances are very rare opportunities in all the important centers of HM, except Mumbai. HM listeners have developed listening to the Vilambit and for a difference, dhrut compostions and lighter forms. Detailed Alap is also out of vogue in HM due to the brevity of concerts as demanded by the HM rasikas. For the performers, HM with greater freedom for Manodharma sangeeth in khayal compositions, melody and bhava placed higher over the laya kari find it difficult to appreciate the CM with judicious balance between Kalpitha and Kalpana based music. The modern cutcheri CM with ever increasing emphasis on the kanakku(Laya swara vinyasam), least attempts at Raga methodical and development in all its grandeur-the real test of manodharma sangeetha, non adherence to the Akara and greater tolerance for apa sruthi and finally the complicated grammer, does not attract and interests the HM listeners. To attract HM listeners, CM concerts with Athi Vilamba and Vilambakala compositions after the structured and detailed Raga Alapana in thristhayees, with neraval and adequate swara prasthara; ending with viruthams/slokams/Ugabhogas/Suladi in raga malika, tillana should be tried. CM performers must have the basic requirement of shruthi sudham, akara base and development and select ragas popular and common in HM.
It is no secret of the success of our Great Maestro M.Balamuralikrishna garu getting the acceptance of HM rasikas and performers and also the pamara rasikas of CM is due to the above mentioned in the modern cuthcheri paddhathi.
Technically, the differences between both the systems are well established and well known.
munirao2001

[Rsachi]

Muni-garu
Thanks for mentioning BMK. I was about to say the same thing.

[SrinathK]

Dear harimau,

I listen avidly to Hindustani and Carnatic music and while I instantly got attracted to their voices and tones, it took my ears some time to adjust to some very slow meends -- in the beginning I thought they felt almost out of tune vs the regular gamakas in Carnatic. It was slow enough to explicitly highlight the transition through every out of tune interval between two perfectly aligned swaras. At first when I heard those slooooowww slides in Hindustani instrumental music (as an example see the LGJ-AAK jugalbandhi), the meends sounded very off. I still get a strange feeling whenever they slide right through the land of dissonance....

@RSachi, since you mentioned Western classical musicans, I must say that this is why the portamento (the jhaaru) and glissando are not that liked by western ears (especially on a very shrill instrument like the violin in concert pitch), some having referred to it as "mewing" and "caterwauling" and in shifting positions the specific instruction is to avoid all traces of the slide and use it only as a special effect where it's aesthetically pleasing. I don't know what they would do when they hear a sslooooowww meend. But then those musicians did not hear a living raga like Neelambari or Thodi or Bhairavi, compared to which the Western standard of slides and glides is still in elementary class.

The other thing in Hindustani music I had to get used to in the early stages was some of those heavy akharas -- their swings were huge -- much greater than gamakas and to my ears I had to (at first) seriously doubt how much of it was in tune and would be rather relieved when they went to faster plain notes. I still get jittery listening to some heavy akharas after a lot of sweet vilambit singing -- to this day I have a feeling that there is something not in tune and besur in there, quite a jarring contrast to the usual plain note singing -- I can't identify the exact notes they are singing at all. It seems to be just a vibration in the vicinity of certain swaras. In any case, those akharas definitely swing much more than any kampita gamaka! In fact my preferred description for them are vocal earthquakes !

I'm careful not to play Carnatic music that much before some of my friends who listen only to local film songs -- they had the audacity to tell me that the great MSG sounded weirdly "weepy" -- to my ear all I have ever heard from MSG was deep raga bhaava laden gamakas with incredible precision!

And speaking of Western Classical, another similar experience would repeat when I started listening to film scores and western classical -- first of all I had to get used to Equal temperament and often dissonant and out of tune intervals! They aren't really in a position to find fault with the intervals in Indian music systems Then came what I thought were really screechy high notes near the bridge, vibratos that could be so wide as to really feel out of tune (A classic example would be the opening movement of Mendelssohn's violin concerto in E minor -- only a few violinists have vibrated the opening notes exactly right so it sounds perfectly in tune and yet emotes well) -- not to mention strange jarring sounds at the very bass end of human hearing on the piano (which I am still only now beginning to get accustomed to.) My family quite doesn't see what's in tune in Bach yet while I was listen to a divine rendition of the Chaccone in D.

And must I mention about my rock, jazz and Hollywood scores loving friend who found the sound of the tanpura (yes!!) strange and weird to his ears? For the record, it was Your tanpura v3. I told him he was tone deaf (and proved it on a piano app, wiping out the smugness from his expression).

So to me it's a matter of training the ears #1 and having an open mind to appreciate good in different forms of music and getting used to hearing new sounds.

[SrinathK]

However there is one other matter and that is #2 tone. First and foremost music is tone, tone and tone! The first thing I notice comparing CM to other systems of music is that in our system there is much that the average concert or recording must do to enhance tone -- in very few recordings the beautiful tanpura sound come out. Often the sound balance is terrible and often loses crucial frequencies, reducing a priceless Italian of a Lalgudi or an msg to the sound of a tin can! Western classical recordings are relatively speaking, far superior in quality.

Reverberation is close to zero giving a very dry sound (at least among the recordings I have). My mind still debates with itself over the existence of acoustics in several Carnatic concerts. Very close mic singing and playing also in my opinion has resulted in everyone singing and playing softly (p or pp) and natural force and tone has suffered.

In other systems of music, a huge portion of learning is devoted to tone production and the use of voice or instrument to bring out different colours and moods, but in our Carnatic system of basic training all that seems to be left to the student to figure out. The blame is not one sided here. It is another matter that the average CM music student is also not ready for that kind of rigour and would run away at the sight of such performance standards! I never even knew there was a separate branch of study on tone until I started listening to Hindustani Music and then looking up on Western violin and Classical music. How each part of a fingertip can produce a slightly different tone or how many variations by changing bowing angle, speed, pressure, tilt are possible was all a new discovery to me.

Later on I came to know that it does exist in CM as well but alas, in Carnatic music, that is still the realm of the greatest ones. For e.g. MSG (who actually took a full fledged studies in western bowing and tone production techniques) or TNK (who also recommends the same) or MS amma. The knowledge though is scarcely passed down the ladder. I have not yet seen any lesson on tone production taught to beginners or intermediate students.

Further abuse of mathematics in Carnatic music leads to a huge number of staccato notes which have little or no scope for bringing out any raga beauty (and most of which are not hit correctly either). And in singing a lot of out of tune notes many of our vocalists (leave out MS or MMI or KVN or anyone else of that caliber) have to accept blame. One particular incident of a musician to whose concert I went had great substance, but with not even a single note in tune! How do you call it Carnatic (pleasing to the ears) when fundamentally it takes ears with the temperament of an archaeologist to extract something valuable out of that!

Carnatic instrumental music on average has much better sruthi adherence and tone, but with an exception being nadaswarams! In this I only wonder how modern apartment and city life has

And speaking of lyrical pronunciation, MS is still to my ears the international gold standard. Till today I have never been able to figure out what language were the lyrics of those khayals I've heard (especially once it gets into big raga improvisations, it could be anything and only God would know). And elsewhere, I still have to get myself accustomed to how opera vocalists heavily vibrate every single note which would be totally out of tune had it appeared in one of our ragas ! Or singing in falsetto or head voices in other kinds of music... while it's suitable for their plain note music, such a thing would sound ridiculous if we sang a thodi or a Yaman like that!

The third element in CM is our system of rhythm -- It is the pinnacle of rhythmic achievement but appreciation for it is still not what it should be. Rhythmic education and awareness in our music requires significant improvement -- it should reach to rasikas and all students, not just percussion students. It is happening, now there are novel and simple to train non-percussion students of music and rasikas alike in developing their rhythmic skills. A little word on how a tani avartanam works and what are it's parts can go a long way in increasing it's appreciation.

Finally, I must also mention that musicians are also human beings and are not immune from the personal prejudices of any other people. Some bitter experiences in the last few years have made me believe that a bias against CM is not just due to differing musical taste, but rather an extension of prejudices against South Indian (and especially Tamil) culture as such. Anyway, I will end this one right here....

And speaking of other comparisons between the 2 systems, how much does an average Hindustani musician earn per concert as compared to his Carnatic counterpart?

[Nick H]

Yo-yo music! Ha! ...But I can see the point. Hindustani music has a fluidity which (it was explained to me recently) comes from from working in and around the equally-strict laya rather than following its points.

Reverberation is close to zero giving a very dry sound (at least among the recordings I have)

I have several BMK CDs that are unlistenable because some idiot fancied tweaking the reverb knob. Let it be left alone! Let the recordings be dry. Whatever the genre, unless the engineers are capturing the actually-happened feeling of a live performance, let them throw all their effects away. Reverb is just a crutch to make deficient music/recording sound fuller.

In other systems of music, a huge portion of learning is devoted to tone production and the use of voice or instrument to bring out different colours and moods, but in our Carnatic system of basic training all that seems to be left to the student to figure out.

...or not, as is often the case.

Is carnatic music the only vocal genre in the world where the singer is not actually taught to sing? I do find it hard to call someone who can't be heard across a domestic living room, without amplification, a singer. Whilst some of the youngsters realise that voice production and projection is a necessarily skill, and one that is to be learnt from its own specialists, others maintain the grand tradition of whispermumble. The only exception is the elderly and, paradoxically, some of our elders have better voices than the young.

Microphone technique is another basic, practical tool of the trade which is not understood and not taught. Would anybody go to a surgeon who, albeit expert in the theory, was a fumbler with a scalpel?

I have not yet seen any lesson on tone production taught to beginners or intermediate students.

The teacher cannot teach what they themselves cannot do. Some, perhaps, also, do not like their students to have stronger voices than theirs.

I still have to get myself accustomed to how opera vocalists heavily vibrate every single note

Actually, I never got used to this, even before becoming attached to Indian music. I just do not like the result of that particular form of voice training.

[Rsachi]

An all encompassing posting, Mr. Srinath, thanks.

As has been already said, classical music needs a tutored and cultured ear. And appreciating new schools or types of classical music after becoming accustomed to one school or genre calls for a lot of sensitivity and even getting rid of baggage. The only factor that works for most people is the Adbhuta rasa (how North Indians are simply amazed when South Indian ladies make those fluffy, lovely idlis!) That is why most of us spend 80% of our time listening to and enjoying just one kind of music. And in the days of Internet and TB MP3 archives, the path of least resistance and most attraction is always to "my kind of music".

Rest of this discussion basically applies to practicing musicians and comparative study scholars.

[Rsachi]

Talking of opera, I loved this singing (click to access YT video):

[SrinathK]

@Rsachi and Nick H,

Yo-yo music lol! When was the last time we were able to decipher the lyrics of a khayal once the high speed taans start? Or for that matter, at all? And till now how many Carnatic musicians are capable of that kind of gesticulations or faces?

At the other end, I'm just listening to a dhrupad recital now and I see that there are 2 tanpuras, both of which get mics. Do you remember seeing anything like that in a Carnatic concert? And when was the last time the percussionists banged their way into skull splitting territory in a HM concert?

(It is only in good humour, don't mistake me please.)

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks all. Lots of great analysis. Srinath, a lot of what you say jives with me well. I may get to my thoughts on that in a later post.

Apaswaras in CM performances are definitely there and that should not be excused or we be defensive about it. But the truth is not all of CM is filled with that and there has to be something else for the perceptional differences.

(As Srinath says, CM instrumentalists should be pretty good at sruthi suddham plus great at gamakas. Say, Balachandar's incredible Lalitha that Cool shared with us a long while back or along the lines of Srinath's MSG example or one of tons of examples you all can think of. That will be a good test. )

There is definitely something about non-plain note rendering and musical perception. As munirao says above, there are well known and documented differences in the practice of non-plain note rendering between CM and HM and between Indian classical and Western classical. Just as it is perplexing why my western musician friend can not perceive the beauty in kAnadA/darbAri kAnadA, equally so if a HM rasika can not perceive the incredible depth of CM Bhairavi and Thodi. But that is the nature of non-plain note predominant music. There does not seem to be a universality to that enjoyment. I find that to be the fascinating aspect about all this.

[vasanthakokilam]

In other systems of music, a huge portion of learning is devoted to tone production

Quite true. Here is a personal example. When I learned flute, the focus was only on fingering and blowing techniques to get the right gamaka. It is not easy as all flutists know. The tone production aspect is largely left to the students. If someone produces a good tone, that is considered a unique talent and even perceived as something that you are born with!

Roll forward a few decades. I stumbled upon a youtube video of a western flute teacher. She teaches a simple technique to 'prepare the mouth system, so to say, to produce a smoother and pleasant sounding tone. Even on the first try, I was blown away by the effect.

[Nick H]

a lot of what you say jives with me well.

Jives with you, VK?

... a western flute teacher. She teaches a simple technique to 'prepare the mouth system, so to say, to produce a smoother and pleasant sounding tone. Even on the first try, I was blown away by the effect.

Now you're talking. Perfect pun

But I'm surprised that the absence of tonal discipline extends so much into instrumental music. A person can sing well, despite my objections, with a bad voice, but an instrument badly played just sounds ...bad.

[vasanthakokilam]

Ha..ha..Nick. I meant to write 'jibe' and I often make that mistake!

[Nick H]

Actually, i thought you were going to come back with a proof of proper usage: As jive is a dance, once might think that dancing would require harmony and agreement, It makes sense.
I was just thinking of taking the big OED off the shelf to see what I might be missing .

As a sailor, I always think of the first definition of "jibe," but, of course, you mean the second.

[girish_a]

Roll forward a few decades. I stumbled upon a youtube video of a western flute teacher. She teaches a simple technique to 'prepare the mouth system, so to say, to produce a smoother and pleasant sounding tone. Even on the first try, I was blown away by the effect.

You are, of course, referring to Nina Perlove, whom we discussed in the tech thread a couple of years ago. Here are the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ms9tsWmhyU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIxaYRgf418

[vasanthakokilam]

Yes. Thanks Girish. This gave me an opportunity to listen to that again as a refresher.

[cacm]

It is well-known that Hindusthani musicians think that Carnatic music is full of apaswarams. They are known to have called it besur sangeeth.

I was pondering this question the other day and started looking up possible venues for answers why this might be so.
........
Replies from musicians, musicologists, and members of this forum are welcome and indeed eagerly awaited.

Dear Harimau,
A VERY SIMPLE EXPERIMENT- which I have done CONFIRMED to me that they are right in what they are complaining about.
All one needs to do is to play very good recordings of yester year Maestros & I found that frequency analysis with oscilloscopes etc CLEARLY show that the power spectrum has extraneous frequencies(sub, super harmonics excluded) in the case of almost every one except MMI, MSS & MSG. Consequently I play only these three south indian musicians to N.Indian & Western experts myself so I don't have to answer their obvious questions. Actually the same note(frequency wise) is quite different between two artists though musically to the ears BOTH sound divine. I am not even talking about the one & only listener in a million(according statistics) who has perfect pitch. Some time back someone from Stanford did an objective analysis of Mali & LGJ (the way they played the same swarams in various ragas) & found they differed...
I wish there is a technical discussion on these points. VKV

[SrinathK]

Dear cacm,

Even the best western virtuoso violinists who have gained a permanent place in history for their legendary intonation standards did not play exactly in tune all the time (e.g. Heifetz, Szeryng). Heifetz has even said "No violinist ever plays in tune" and "I make as many wrong notes as anyone else, but I fix them before anyone else hears them." Leaving aside the human impossibility of reproducing computer perfection, there is a lot of argument over intonation styles even in other systems of music. For e.g. there are adjustments to the notes to be made while playing chords -- each player has played Bach for e.g. differently from others and it is a matter of hot debate as to which notes have to be in tune with Equal temperament (ET) and which notes have to be in relative tune to each other -- a very debated matter in music like Bach's.

There is also something that is called "expressive intonation" where notes are played sharper or flatter than ET in melodic lines (a concept very much like the 22 shrutis an analysis of which will show that the 2 srutis for a note are respectively flatter and sharper the modern ET values). Frequency analysis suggests that in melodic lines there is no preferred system followed by any classical violinist -- it varies between Pythogorean, ET and Just Intonation and all in between. Notes have been seen to differ when played on solo violin as compared to violin + piano pieces too. Back in the 19th century there was a statement that before Ysaye, no violinist ever played in tune! The standards have been raised over the 20th century, but the conclusion is that even in music systems that like to boast of "suswara music", there are differences and much remains to be settled.

However in my experience, the western musicians with their plain notes have an easier task in matters of tone production than Indian musicians, who have to also ensure microscopic perfection in gamakas as well -- the left hand technique of Carnatic music is especially complex and it becomes REALLY hard to maintain those microscopic gamakas when playing at very high positions on the string -- hence I've only heard MSG (who could live in the upper half of the board if he wanted) and to some extent LGJ play raga phrases very high up the string. It is much harder to do in Carnatic music than any western scale as the gap becomes too small that the notes start falling between the space covered by two fingers.

Differences in swarasthanas are also very common among Hindustani musicians as well. Only in the case of intervals like the 5th (pa), 4th (shuddha ma) and major third (antara Ga) is there some common ground otherwise it has been conclusively proven that even among stalwarts the perception of notes differ from ear to ear.

@vk and Nick H, Regarding tone production, take a look at some of these lessons on bowing and tone in western classical violin -- http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20075/7037/ -- where in CM do we pay this much attention to detail except the very greatest musicians? It is no wonder that MSG took a full course in Western bowing and TNK also advises his students to do the same. Even my own violin teacher advised me to learn as much from western bowing technique as possible.

I don't think it's fair to compare a flute to a violin or to measure a carnatic gamaka against Equal temperament. Having listened to plenty of flute violin duets I noticed that the notes and gamakas on the flute noticeably differ from the violin in many places and this might be more due to the fundamental nature of the tuning of the flute and the fretless nature of the violin. I've also confirmed this after playing with some flautist friends at college -- semitones were especially prone to divergence!

[vasanthakokilam]

Srinath: Thanks for that excellent link. I just loved this statement.

"You can say to yourself, at least I can play one note as well as anyone in the history of the world. It's a good starting point. You've arrived, you are playing the violin for that one note."

( that is what I try at the Gym. One perfect push up! )

I am not sure I fully understand everything Fischer says but overall the message is one of hope, that it is possible to teach someone to make a great tonal sound.

Regarding what he says about hearing beats when two semi-tone apart notes are played, my first thought was, of course! We have done that experiment in physics labs with tuning forks. But alas, I just tried it with the tampura set to C and I played C# on the flute. I can hear they are not in tune, but I could not hear the pulsing beats. May be this combination is not good for that. I then tried by recording a flute sound at C and then played C# against it and I could hear the beats. But I am still bummed about the tampura sound. If I can train my ears to hear the beats, that is a pretty deterministic way to make those minor adjustments so the beats disappear. The 'fretlessness' equivalent for the flute are the mouth position and the partially opened holes!! It is such a precarious balance that it is amazing that good flutists can keep that all together in fast playing while doing all the machinations for the raga specific gamakas, some of which does involve rotating the flute. ( so I hear, I can't do that well )

BTW, that noticeable divergence between violin and flute note production, how much of a deviation do you hear? Just curious. My ears can not pick up too minute ones, but on a karvai if they diverge i may be able to hear it.

One thing I often wondered about is this. After a vocalist finishes an alapana, when a good violinist starts his/her turn, there is something better about it in terms of raga precision. Not that the vocalist was out of tune necessarily, but with voice ( in the CM context ) there is an overall smearing kind of quality to it. It is sort of like looking at a non-HD picture and then an HD picture. ( that will be grossly overstating the difference if taken literally but hope you sense what I mean. It is not about correctness but about brightness?).

[Nick H]

Yes, the violin lesson was fascinating, even to a complete non player.

If you have an android phone, look at the app Tunable. it shows you not only how far off your note is, but how it wavers, as a graph line. You might find it useful in your researches.

[arasi]

VK,
Brightness and clarity--the same thing, right?
True, a good violinist can sometimes play a few phrases after a grand AlApana, inspired by the singing, and re-usher the rAgA in his turn, and somehow the clarity of it makes such an impression that what the voice created so well recedes to the background. There are times of course, when such an AlApana is followed by an uninspired, mediocre violinist and the AlApana either stays with you or makes you regret that the return could have been better!

The human voice rules in the end, when it starts singing the song after that. That is, if it can tune into the sAhitya, and voice the words feelingly. "appaDiyE pADugiRa mAdiri irundadu sir!" one may exclaim about an excellent violinist, but it only 'sounds like singing' and does not really sing the words!

[SrinathK]

I want to know if there's an app out there where we can set our own frequencies to the 12 tone scale as equal temperament and our music don't go well together.

@vk I'm not sure exactly how much they differ but they do vary. The dubious nature of an amateur's violin intonation notwithstanding, I want to know if flutes are tuned to equal temperament. I have begun to feel that even veenas and mandolins are also being tuned close to ET and that in turn has problems aligning to the tambura.

So for better accuracy I recommend the 22shruti.com website. I should add that gamakas have allowed us to explore many more than even those 22 intervals now, however there are certain principles of acoustic vibrations that can't be ignored. Hence the r1 of saaveri or the m2 of varali are never played without gamakas otherwise they would sound out of character. The perception of pitch also varies in oscillating notes and studies seem to indicate that the ear perceives the mean center of the pitch as a reference point.

You can play 2 srutis for the same note together and hear dissonance in intervals as small as 81/80. The shrutis are so close their intervals can be exceeded by a typical vibrato. When 2 notes are played together it is possible to hear beats even when the difference is as small as 1 cent.

[cacm]

Dear SrinathK,
YOUR points are correct & well taken. However the fact is the lapses of Carnatic Vocalists except MSS & MMMI are not subtle but quite obvious. I feel its because of not being able to be in tune with the Thambura & its complex notes. It is well known that MSS even in her seventies has said she did Aharasadhaham for close to 4 hours/day & both MMI & MSS STARTING very early in their lives PRACTISED with their thamburas till their voices & the thambura were indistnguishable. It is a phenomenon of RESONANCE as well the plasticity of the human brain that enabled them to reach this level of perfection and of course their "Feedback System"- by this I mean the ability to correct mistakes within hundredth of a second-thats what it appears to take so no one can detect the errors- was what made them perfect.
Incidentally in terms of LAYAM the phenomenon of "Sadaipathu" -the lag between the actual beating of say the mridangam & the actual beat of the thalam-is what appears to make Vellore Ramabhadran PERFECT to listen to; Evem PMI appears to have said his playing in this regard was perfect & superior to any one else he had heard......It would be interesting to discuss these aspects in greater depth but this forum is eminently unsuitable in my opinion unfortunately. VKV

[vasanthakokilam]

but this forum is eminently unsuitable in my opinion unfortunately. VKV

I think you will find quite a few people here that can match your expectations in terms of such technical sophistication and more. Please go ahead. Thanks.

[SrinathK]

Dear vkv, we are all ears.

[cacm]

Dear Srinathk & V,
As its difficult for me to write in detail here I will write in word document & email it to both of you so we can be more efficient about it. The drawback is strictly mine. VKV It will take a few days.

[mahavishnu]

VKV sir, When you are done with the word document, perhaps you could paste it here as well. It would be of benefit and interest to may of us that have been following this discussion.

[cacm]

I will be happy to paste it here. How do you do it? Don't know how! VKV.... YOU can write me if you wish to my email: [email protected] THANKS.

[chitravina ravikiran]

[quote="harimau"]It is well-known that Hindusthani musicians think that Carnatic music is full of apaswarams. They are known to have called it besur sangeeth.

A lot of valid points have been made by many so far. The fact is barring a very few HM artistes such as Pt Ravishankar, most others' exposure to CM is highly limited. This does not mean that their surface-level perceptions are unjustified/baseless. CM has depth but in order to raise to national/international levels, a system must have both surface appeal and in-depth USP. From day one, a student is taught to focus on the latter most times and those who focus on the former do it at the cost of the latter. In other words, only the rare few have got the balance right in CM and they are rightly ahead of the pack in the national/international scene. (Of course there are several who may hold that it's easier to conquer non-Indians than north-Indians!)

Just to put things in perspective, I'll share some of my discussions with various HM artistes' on this (some of whom, I can't name).

1. Pt Ravishankar pleasantly surprised me with his in-depth analysis of CM legends incl. ARI, MVI, GNB, SSI, Brinda and others. "I got sold to CM only because of Veena Dhanammal," he said. His points were generally spot-on, even from a strictly objective Carnatic point of view.

2. Most other HM artistes generally place stress on 'swara-shuddham' than 'shruti-shuddham' (a point I expanded in my Academy lec-dem in 2012). They typically identify with Dr BMK's command over the former as well as his overall delivery.

3. They do have a real issue with the tonal production and delivery of almost all CM vocalists they have heard except probably MSS (but most have not heard Madurai Mani Iyer, Brindamma etc). A few of them actually wondered how vocalists who could not align to shruti or hold a 'Sa' steadily could be called 'top' in the south.

4. For the same reasons purity in delivery and feeling of space, they hold CM instrumentalists like Flute Mali sir, Shri TNK/ Shri MSG in high regard.

5. They are awed by CM's solidity, organised approach and intellect though they feel there is 'less heart' in our music. In a panel discussion in Ahmedabad, tabla exponent Pt Bikram Ghosh (who also trained in mrdangam) threw an open question which set me thinking: "In HM, we are taught the 'emotional' aspect of every rhythmic phrase or tala but in CM, I was only taught the technique and math". Never one to sell CM short, I said "Of course the top percussionists bring a lot of emotion into every syllable they play!" He agreed but maintained that in HM it was emphasized as an intrinsic aspect from day one. "We are taught to 'feel' the talas."

Will share a few more in my next.

[arasi]

Ravikiran,
Thanks for taking an active part in the discussions. "From the horse's mouth" sounds shallow. "From your unique perspective" is better. What some of us can only speculate over (and arrive at and arrive at no conclusion sometimes), become revelations when you say it--with your music, immense experience, exposure and exchanges with other artistes.

Rasikas.org is blessed, indeed...

[vasanthakokilam]

"In HM, we are taught the 'emotional' aspect of every rhythmic phrase or tala but in CM, I was only taught the technique and math". Never one to sell CM short, I said "Of course the top percussionists bring a lot of emotion into every syllable they play!" He agreed but maintained that in HM it was emphasized as an intrinsic aspect from day one. "We are taught to 'feel' the talas."

CM side's response will be, 'True about the math, but that is only a beginning. Later comes the whole concept of 'playing to the song' rather than 'playing to the beat' which is where playing with emotion comes in" etc. Meaning, once they become professionals, a good one at that, there is no difference wrt to the emotional side though the two artists started off differently.

But if I make an attempt to look deeper into what Pt Bikram Ghosh says, may be in HM the student is vetted at the beginning itself to see if they have the emotional temperament of an artist, rather than a mathematical and analytical person who responds very well to learning the 'finger and hand' techniques. Meaning, since they start off right at the beginning with such emotional stuff, a person like me ( who skews more on the latter side ) would not even relate to what the guru is talking about about the emotional side of a beat etc. and would last just a week! But a more artistic brain would align well with such teachings.

So, though it may not matter much at the professional level, HM may weed out the non-artistic types much earlier.

To some extent, the same phenomenon may apply on the melody side as well.

Just a wild speculation. But even if there is only a bit of truth in this, it is an angle to peer into the whole CM-HM situation.

[mahavishnu]

Very interesting insights, Sri Ravikiran. Thank you for joining this discussion!

As VK says, perhaps the difference is in the approach to pedagogy where we separate kanakku-vazhakku from the bhavam. But all good percussionists eventually integrate the two.

Despite that, most tabla players perform for the tala/beat; while most mridangists (at least the good ones) play for the song/music. There is some irony to that.

I am reminded of a conversation I once had with the legendary jazz drummer/tabla player Trilok Gurtu. He said (paraphrasing): " You Carnatic types get PhDs, become doctors, analyze music, write dissertations about music. I just play music because that is the only thing I know how to do".

I am equally fascinated by the depth of understanding of the CM system by Pt Ravi Shankar.

[Rsachi]

Folks,
Here is an active Hindustani singer from Benares, Pandit Chhannulal Mishra, singing vAtApiganapatiM BhajEhaM, which he says he learnt while visiting Madras:


Click the image to play.

[uday_shankar]

Rsachi, thanks for sharing that delightful and cute video. Loved it. I have heard the audio earlier. The purity of the notes is instantly evident. Even after hours, the notes of Hamsadhwani ring in my ears. Again, the 2.5 kattai shruti...sigh...I wish more CM vocalists sang at higher shrutis. Right at the outset Shri Mishra shows the superior tone production when he hits the mel Sa so perfectly. I rarely get that fulfilling feeling from the mel Sa of Carnatic vocalists. There's something in the voice.

[Rsachi]

Yes Uday!
For me Panditji is special. He is a wonderful communicator (talks a lot too during his programmes). He impressed Amitabh Bachchan so much AB flew to Benares to participate in an album release for him.
He sings something wonderful in the link below about Shiva and says things also beautiful about Benares too:
http://youtu.be/rTqnAwwtajs

[varsha]

http://www.mediafire.com/?6q60sgao58zti8l
Channulal in his heyday
lovely miya malhar

[uday_shankar]

Again, the 2.5 kattai shruti...sigh...

Prof SRJ sings at this pitch too !Check out this delightful rendition of Niravathi(u?) Sukhada...with super duper accompanists too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsGQzL3d2AM
The internet is full of gems.

[munirao2001]

I differ with the view of Maestro Bikram Ghosh that the teaching of mridangam in CM is based only on the technique and kanakku vyavaharams. The students are advised to fully understand the gayaka padhathi, listen to all the maestros and their expositions of all the vaggeyakaras. This listening helps best understanding and empathy with the performing artists in their manodharma based music. The deep realization of the bhava content results in planning the laya swarams best suited to the kalapramana and the raga swarams of the performer. Listening to the Great Maestros will clearly demonstrate, what I am conveying in words.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

Chitraveena Ravikiran has said

Pt Ravishankar pleasantly surprised me with his in-depth analysis of CM.

Pt Ravishankar made several visits to Madras/Chennai and also stayed for some time to understand the intricacies of CM. He did attend weekly chamber music concerts of Veena Dhanammal. While serving AIR, he interacted with many great maestros serving AIR, like GNB, SB,Kama shastri, Emani Shankara Shastri, Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao and Doreswamy Iyyengar. He was the only HM Great Maestro to deeply understand and appreciate CM and introduced many ragas of CM to HM pan India rasikas. He tried and succeeded in adopting gamakams of CM, a bridge between meand of HM and gamakam of CM in his unique style of Sitar playing.

Historically, North, East and to an extent West India had very turbulent times with many wars-intra States and out side States(foreign invaders). People became aggressive and violent and suffered for long. They badly needed peace and romance. The khayal development in HM having taken place during such time, with full of meditative and romantic moods, relegating the dominant bhakthi bhav of Dhrupad. Vilambit, slow pace than even athi vilambam of CM, was most appealing to the people in great strife. With loss of spouses and separation lead to appreciation of Thumris of madhyha laya. They can not appreciate CM,with rigid rules of grammar and vibrant and with intricate swara kalpanas and laya kari.

CM region enjoyed peace, in comparison with HM region. They appreciated vilamba-madhyama-dhruta based CM music, pregnant with Bhakthi rasa. The compositions on romance, did not receive universal appeal. Modern cutcheri paddhathi, post Ariyakudi, starting with primacy for madhya laya, has now ended up with duritham primacy and no visradhi, an important and forgotten aspect of CM. In the pursuit of Style, delivery aspect of CM has greatly suffered. Idolization has lead to tolerance of idiosyncrasies and deficiency in voice culture-particularly akara perfection and usage. Combining with the other deficiencies, CM vocalists, with the exception of very few Great Maestros, contributed to the total aversion of HM rasikas to CM. Corrective action and providing more listening opportunities and Lecture demonstrations on and of CM to the HM Ustads/Pandits and HM rasikas can lead to better appreciation and support for CM in the HM regions

munirao2001

[harimau]

So far, what we have got is digressions and in my opinion irrelevant comments.

Just to prove that I am open to listening to Hindusthani Sangeeth, I went to Kalakshetra where Smt Manjusha Patil was expounding on that genre.

There was the usual harmonium accompaniment which, having fixed positions for its keys, was producing the swarasthanams of whatever the singer was singing.

Without debating the matter further, I shall grant that Smt Patil was landing squarely on those swarams. But when she was drawling out from one swaram to the next, what is that called? All those intermediate frequencies: were they apaswarams or were they part of the melody? If it is melody and not apaswaram, then when a Carnatic musician moves from one note to the next -- and I shall grant that it is at a faster clip -- and corrects his swarasthanam after hovering near the correct note, why is that an apaswaram?

If the Carnatic musician does not land precisely on the rishabham that the Hindusthani musician expects (R1, R2 or R3) when the Carnatic musician is singing Saveri, is that an apaswaram?

If someone like Trilok Gurtu were to tell me that he only knows and plays music whereas Carnatic musicians analyze it to death, I would point out that as far as drumming is concerned, the best tabalchi is no match for a medium-grade mridangist in playing percussion and if the tabalchis do not want to progress beyond the sixth grade, it is their intellectual limitation that is holding them back. Instead you fellows are receiving this as Moses would have received the Ten Commandments, as a revelation from God!

Instead of saying that he has done an analysis with oscilloscopes, cacm should tell us whether he took the same krithis sung by several different persons and found their swarasthanams to be incorrect. And he should tell us if he was looking at R1, R2, R3, etc., or he made allowances for the fact that Saveri rishabham does not fall into these fixed positions. cacm should also tell us if MMI, MSS and MSG were perfect every time and also if he thinks persons like D K Pattammal were wrong most of the time. After all, he is the one making the claim that only MMI, MSS and MSG were perfect. How about Voleti or Nedunuri? T N Rajarathnam?

As to Ravikiran's statements, he can tell us what Ravi Shankar's thoughts were on Carnatic music without necessarily naming the musicians he may have criticized. Then we would gain some enlightenment as to what is wrong with Carnatic music as seen by a professional Hindusthani musician.

In an article about Brindamma that I read somewhere, it said that Abdul Karim Khan went about saying Carnatic music is besur sangeeth and only when Brinda as a young girl identified in a rapid-fire fashion the swarams employed by him when he was doing an aalaap in akaaram mode, he conceded that South Indian musicians knew their swarams!

That also proves that Hindusthani musicians were criticizing Carnatic music and musicians even in the 1930s when there were many more stalwarts in their prime singing days.

Let me conclude by saying that nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.

[cacm]

HARIMAU:
Instead of saying that he has done an analysis with oscilloscopes, cacm should tell us whether he took the same krithis sung by several different persons and found their swarasthanams to be incorrect. And he should tell us if he was looking at R1, R2, R3, etc., or he made allowances for the fact that Saveri rishabham does not fall into these fixed positions. cacm should also tell us if MMI, MSS and MSG were perfect every time and also if he thinks persons like D K Pattammal were wrong most of the time. After all, he is the one making the claim that only MMI, MSS and MSG were perfect. How about Voleti or Nedunuri? T N Rajarathnam?

Dear Harimau,
I have in addition to osilloscope analysis ACTUALLY have played MMI & MALI as well as LGJ their recordings, my experimental analyses as well as the "looking at R1,R2,R3" to quote Harimau & made allowances Saveri rishabam does not fail into thesefixed position". I have felt things were decided arbitrarily and using crutches like TRADITION etc or different schools etc.
This is why I am trying to ANALYSE MUSIC esp. Carnatic Music on an OBJECTIVE totally on a total system basis. I am separately mailing you my proposed approach & would like your participation, criticisms, as well as suggestions to move this further.
Reg DKP, TNR, NEDANURI etc I LIKE ASPECTS of their music VERY MUCH. THEIR strengths are in different areas; After all Carnatic Music is very vast & complex with so many different areas. I restrict myself to those I have discussed the matters I write about. I was so overawed by TNR I CANNOT IMAGINE DISCUSSING THESE MATTERS WITH HIM. I have met him several times in concerts & outside. REG DKP, I met her when I was 13 as my mother was very close to her. Same situation like TNR in my situation. REG Nedanuri I have interacted a lot with him as I was very keen on his coming to USA in seventies- He was the FIRST CHOICE as I had decided to sponsor a Vocalist- & the interactions could not reach the comfort level needed for me.
It took me 8 years to develop enough guts to even say HELLO to MMI & MALI but I found them VERY OPEN as well as VERY CRITICAL in evaluationg their own efforts. Consequently Along with my buddy Late S.S.Venkataraman sometime N.V.Subramanian (Sasraswathi- my class mate) we have visited MMI to discuss these and allied subjects. About MSS tho' like DKP my mother knew her verIy well (Sankaracharyar connection etc) I actually got to know her well only after the '66 USA UN TOUR & have discussed these subjects at great length.......PERFECTION IS IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS ONE CAN DEFINE WHAT IT IS. That what I am trying to chase. An impossible dream maybe but worth trying?
PL READ MY EMAIL & CONTRIBUTE. THANKS

That also proves that Hindusthani musicians were criticizing Carnatic music and musicians even in the 1930s when there were many more stalwarts in their prime singing days.......

TRUE as well as MOSTLY their criticism also was TRUE. VKV

[SrinathK]

Dear harimau,

Your 1st para -- As far as Hindustani music goes, the ET harmonium has all the intervals out of tune w.r.t the tanpura so out goes the greatly toutled "suswara" concept there itself. Either there should be a harmonium or a tanpura, but not both -- ET and tanpura do not align. And what about meends and akhaaras I had to adjust to those slow meends and those akharas -- while I'm ok with that now, there's nothing in Carnatic music that departs so explicitly allowing the ear to perceive the full scope of the no-man's land of dissonance between 2 su-swaras. So if that is acceptable as "su-swara" then any gamaka is also "su-swara" and nothing less. For one western ears cannot tolerate such slow glissandos and to them it is "mewing". So context matters...

Criticism of "intellectual music" -- a disguised amount of jealously by any chance? I knew pair of acquaintances who made subtle insults against my music tastes. They were fond of saying to me that whenever they hear the name of this raaga and that taala, they get put off by Indian music and can't listen to it anymore...What would they say if they had to read a score? Probably a criticism like "What sort of music is this where they have to read code?"

Were our vidwans guilty of having created this notion? The answer is Yes, but also No. In all genres of music, there have always been those who were renowned for their standards and below them there are always plenty of not so good or outright bad performers. There was also plenty of bad music composed in the time of Mozart as today. Time however, filters out only the best of it's kind so in searching through older music, one finds most wonderful music because only the best music of the old days stands the test of time.

But in Carnatic music, you could get away with dubious intonation more often than not and many many vocalists (and instrumentalists, though comparatively much lesser) indeed went out of tune for the most part and the causes were not always age and health. Identifying the correct swara is easy but singing / playing it tune every time isn't. So there is a significant bit of fact in the statement of singing without shruti.

Abuse of laya at the cost of all other musical aspects ? In several cases, yes. Using technology as a crutch for bad singing / playing habits? Yes.

Poor Recording quality and acoustics / sound balance of live concerts. VERY often -- Ok. I do understand that in many free recordings, there was absolutely no facility and it was an achievement to have obtained at least so much for posterity. Also by the time recordings became popular, most of the CM giants of the time were past their prime and that does not help matters.

But coming to acoustics and sound balance, I see the tanpura getting a mic in many Hindustani concerts. Do we get such niceties even in today's CM concerts?

Can an ET tuned flute or veena be comparable to a fretless violin? It can't. But in this context, it must be pointed out that the issue of different musicians using slightly different positions for the same notes is well noted in ALL systems of music including HM and WCM -- one can see the 22 shruti site or violinist.com for some examples. In WM, a fact is that the same violinist uses different notes when playing in tandem with the piano (ET) or while playing solo (closer to JI or PT) or with winds or strings -- entire orchestras have been affected by this! In playing chords on fret-less instruments like the violin there has always been debate as to which intervals are to be played as per just intonation and which to be played as per ET or even sharper. In HM also the sharps and the flats have always varied across vocalists and styles, and only the objective lens of physics and the inherent harmonic relationships such as the perfect 3rd, 4th and 5th could settle the positions of the old 22 shrutis.

Even if you take MS amma (the most technically perfect vocalist in CM to me along every parameter) as an example -- listen to her Raama Raama Guna seema in Simhendramadhyamam in the Carnegie hall album. The prathi madhyamam is at it's usual high position whenever it is gamaka-allied to the panchamam, but there is a place in the pallavi where they hover on a plain M2 (at "Abhiraama") and it is very noticeably lower (although now it is at its correct plain note interval). So even among the same singer, depending on the presence and type of gamaka a note can vary. So that expressive intonation. Again there are stylistic differences between musicians. For e.g. MMI and TNK used a substantial amount of plain notes in their renditions while at the other end LGJ could be called a gamaka maximalist as he had the greatest gamaka palette and could vary it to any extent to serve any need and accompany anyone.

I do not think the issue of tone is irrelevant to this discussion. The reason why HM seems to give you an electric feeling on the opening notes is because of the richness and variety of tone. Between any two players playing the same note or phrase, the one with better tone always sounds much more emotional and "su-swar". Is the development and practice of tone, acoustics, sound production, etc... in CM truly at world class level? Barring the very topmost, I'd say not, but it's by no means doom and gloom.

Our teaching standards. How many teachers teach laya exercises and to what extent do teachers concentrate on tone while teaching CM to the average student ? Ans: A needle in a haystack... There lies the most immediately perceptible difference between the standards of HM vs. CM. TONE. It is this that makes more difference than any other objective factor regarding impressions of CM as unpleasant.

Has this same problem been faced by other musical genres? YES. For example, it was said that no violinist played in tune until certain late 19th and 20th century geniuses. Do other musical genres also have debatable intonation -- go listen to an opera singer in full vibrato.

Cultural prejudices and complexes and egos -- North vs. the south? Definitely one of the primary causes.

Our laya system? Incomparable. CM can go to any rhythm, any aesthetic, any emotion, any level of complexity. Appreciation of laya? Well I was drawn to appreciate CM laya only by it's aesthetic effect first. The maths came a long long time later. But there is much to be done to help students and rasikas appreciate the rhythmic system of CM. For one, when did someone even name the parts of a tani in a concert or point out which nadai was being played. A little explanation would go a very long way here.

Finally the biggest issue -- How many people are even remotely willing to get their ears trained to CM ragas? Very very few...the predominant reaction among the unaccustomed ears is one of ridicule with zero open-mindedness to appreciate and it's why I don't ever play it on my phone in public. Human prejudice is the hardest barrier to overcome and when one has made up their mind not to like CM there's little anyone can do. But even those people had to admit that Lalgudi's Mohana Kalyani Thillana recording was spectacular.

From my experience I'd say the greatest merit of CM is that it is relatively easy for a CM trained ear to adapt and appreciate many different styles and genres of music -- I'm speaking for myself, but I had no trouble with this and I am convinced it is due to my CM upbringing. Judging by most opinions of CM I have heard, I do not think the reverse is equally true. We can sit between composition and improvisation, between simple and complex, between plain note and gamakas and we can lean in any direction we want.

So fundamentally there is nothing inferior in our CM system at all -- it is a case of not having exploited or projected it's best potential. Finally, in a discussion of the merits of various music systems, one has to see how much of the truth is based on proven fact that can be clearly demonstrated and how much is simply a matter of personal bias, ego or even plain old envy. Human beings are after all, human!

[varsha]

Pt Ravishankar pleasantly surprised me with his in-depth analysis of CM legends incl. ARI, MVI, GNB, SSI, Brinda and others. "I got sold to CM only because of Veena Dhanammal," he said

Never showed up in his music though .
Knowing /appreciating Dhyanammal / Brinda must have ben fashionable from his times itself . Cannot think of anything more than his contribution of sawaljawabs to prove that his methods were the exactly opposite.
Sawal jawabs that have seeped into kirana vocal music too.Oh ! The tyranny of the drums .!!!
Anyway , looking for brinda-like hm- experience in kalakshetra is like looking for a handsewn(by grand ma) baby mattress in RadhaSilk Emporium .
This effort by another migrant hailing from Thanjavur is more like it .
There is some magic in that stream of water.Indeed.
https://archive.org/details/BasavarajRa ... yaKalyan01