What is it with the ghatam?

[chitravina ravikiran]

Shri Bangalore M A Krishnamurthy's demise leaves me shocked for many reasons. While it is a sure loss to the music world, at a personal level, he had been a colourful addition to many of my concerts in Karnataka from early days. Last Dec, was the first time he had played with me at the Music Academy and he seemed as zestful as ever. My sincere prayers for him and his family members.

But my concerns are at the macro level too. How many wonderful exponents of this wonderful instrument have been snatched away so suddenly! Even though there are happy exceptions, the relatively short age span of a high percentage of artistes who take to the ghatam is depressing, especially against that context that many of them did not seem to suffer from habits or poor health. Most of them, like Shri T V Vasan and Shri N Govindarajan were not even overweight.

And ghatam shockingly has the highest percentage of artistes who have died midway through concerts, such as the great Palghat Sundaram.

What is it then? Perhaps there are scientific reasons (technique, posture, energy cycles etc) that need to be studied deeply so that current and future artistes of this lovely instrument take the right steps and live long and enthrall audiences everywhere.

[Rsachi]

Ravikiran,
You have brought up an extremely curious observation. If ghatam artistes face a professional hazard, it is really unfortunate and should be studied and remedied as well as possible in this day and age.

It is surely worth a study by a doctor/team and we at rasikas.org could well sponsor it. I request you to lead this in whatever way you can and we can help.

I do understand Sri MAK had been ailing for over a year.

Sachi R

[harimau]

It is not the pot (of clay) that is the problem. [-x

It is that potbelly that ghatam vidwans have that is the problem. :p

When one sings or plays an instrument at 1 or 1/2 kattai, the ghatam is big and the belly seems small. Contrariwise, when the singer is singing at 6-kattai, the ghatam is small and the belly seems big in comparison.

So, it is the belly against which the clay pot is pressed to produce different sounds that is the problem!

[hnbhagavan]

Dear Rasikas,

I read with interest Sri Ravikiran's concerns.I recall that Ghatam Kartik demonstrated a few techniques.I am not an authority on the subject.
However Kartik illustrated and mentioned that in one technique,Ghatam is moved to and fro from chest.If all the vidwans get together and illustrate
to cardiologist and other experts,some solution may be found.

[Rsachi]

Let us try and build a list of possible reasons:
-pot belly
-pressing an object/instrument against the belly (an issue with sarod also as I read somewhere)
-sedentary lifestyle
-poor living conditions
-emotional issues like lack of success, defeatism etc
-posture
-good old Indian genetics

.... But we should collect data and start analysing it.
Ravikiran has raised a big issue, to my mind.

[PUNARVASU]

A genuine concern. Occupational hazard? Wish some research is done on this and a solution found. Thanks to Sri Ravikiran for bringing up this

[Nick H]

Many musical instruments, world-wide, come with serious postural and health problems. It amazes me, for instance, that repetitive strain injury is not common among mridangists, yet many seem to reach a considerable age with fully flexible fingers.

Moving a little way on the stage from the ghatam: why do I only see young men playing the kanjira? I can think of only two elder[ly] kanjira artists of recent years. If I can think of two, there are probably twenty, but still, it is a very much smaller number and ---unlike ghatam players--- it is rare to see even middle-aged kanjira players.

[semmu86]

And ghatam shockingly has the highest percentage of artistes who have died midway through concerts, such as the great Palghat Sundaram.

What is it then? Perhaps there are scientific reasons (technique, posture, energy cycles etc) that need to be studied deeply so that current and future artistes of this lovely instrument take the right steps and live long and enthrall audiences everywhere.

Ghatam Karthik touched upon the same point in his lec dem at the Music Academy last season.

So, it is the belly against which the clay pot is pressed to produce different sounds that is the problem!

In fact the discussion took a tangential turn, when Karthik demanded some more volume for the ghatam and went on to add that there are so many subtle things that needs to be captured. Like the pressing of belly against the ghatam, which resulted in health hazrds and casulaties in young age like Vid. Palghat Sundaram.

He also demonstrated later that Vidwans like THV introduced a new technique for this, which stressed a different type of ghatam positioning in between their legs, which provided lesser stress to the belly and heaart when ghatam vidwans play phrases, that necessitated belly pressing against the vaadhyam.

[chitravina ravikiran]

So, it is the belly against which the clay pot is pressed to produce different sounds that is the problem!

If one notices closely, the belly used to come into play mainly to produce the gumukki equivalent in the mrdangam, in the classic style. This would account for less than 25% of playing time. We also have to note that they'd barely play 50% of the time when senior mrdangists were on stage.

I have observed the techniques of many other ghatam vidwans from close quarters. Very few of the older generation like Shri Sundaram and Shri Bangalore Manjunath would play 'all-out' through the concert. They'd embellish here and there with excellent touches.

In fact, Shri Palghat Sundaram used to teach mrdangam to my brother for nearly 10 years and we had numerous musical sessions as he was a wonderful vocalist too. He played with me in over 100 concerts at least and his technique was feather-weight (even before his first heart attack).

We used to discuss the 'Belly' Style vs the 'Mouth' style in ghatam and he used to remark that in recent decades, most artistes have adopted the latter. H used to touch upon the physical demands, durability and tonal quality of various types of ghatams like Manamadurai or Chennai ones.

Like the pressing of belly against the ghatam, which resulted in health hazrds and casulaties in young age like Vid. Palghat Sundaram.

This still does not explain people like Shri T V Vasan, Shri Govindarajan and a few others, who were almost reed thin, zero-bellied and seemed to lead decent lifestyles...

Since the issue is about the %age of artistes affected, I wonder if there are deeper, serious reason for this. If there are members in our forum doing medicine-related courses, this could be an excellent topic for a PhD or even post-doc.

[vasanthakokilam]

Quite concerning indeed.
If the mid-life mortality rates are higher among them, even if the evidence is anecdotal, it is definitely something that needs attention.

Can we collect some data on this issue from the previous generation(s)? This way we can see if this is something of recent origin. ( I realize it is hard to get such data but given the wide experience and exposure of membership, we may be able to get at a good data set ).

[TheListener]

Very useful thread. Am throwing up an idea that immediately came to mind. Could it be related to breathing? The kind of breathing and the frequency with which they have to do it for employing certain techniques while playing the Ghatam - like say employing the belly or other techniques. I learnt Yoga and Pranayama from a good yoga tradition. My teachers repeatedly emphasized not to overdo some pranayama techniques as it can be harmful to the body. They also were against holding breadth, which they considered harmful, although I understand it is part of a few techniques. They used to point out that for e.g. deep sea divers have shorter life spans due to having to hold breath for a long time. Holding breath for long by itself may not be an issue for Ghatam vidvans. But could there be other breath related issues that affect health over long term? Breath is intricately connected to several aspects of our life and health. I don't know how long term effects would show up on short term tests. But I believe this is an aspect worth looking into.

Also, are there any common (final/fatal) causes of death known for ghatam vidvans? That may also be a good starting point to connect the dots back.

[Nick H]

Those that have to live by their art alone probably don't eat very well.

[arasi]

Iron bits go into making ghatams (some have more)--that poses no problem, I guess. To keep the pot from breaking easily (as with tempered glass), do they use any substance (vegetable source or other) which is poisonous? If that's the case, earthen containers are porous and can emit poisonous gas (?) from the substance easily, in hot weather, and with hours of playing and practice.
Hope this wild question is irrelevant...

[mohan]

There is socio-economic factor as well. In the ladder of Carnatic musicians I would suspect that ghatam vidwans are of a lower financial standing than other musicians (barring the top handful of ghatam artistes). This leads to issues which Sachi mentioned before like poor living conditions but also less access to good health care, nutrition, etc.

[RKrishnamurthy]

I appreciate Sri Ravikrian’s interest in this topic. I would like to share a few thoughts. There is something called ”occupational hazard”. Here are some examples. People working in an asbestos factory (this is banned in the US) develop a lethal decease called “asbestosis”. People working in quarries develop a lung disorder called “silicosis”. People who have to move their hands in a continuous motion, such as in a check out counter in a supermarket develop Carpal Tunnel syndrome. People working in nuclear plants are periodically monitored for exposure to radioactivity. In the case of Carnatic musicians, for example, vocalists are exposed to throat and voice problems, wind instrumentalists are required to keep healthy lungs, percussionists have to take care of their hands and so on.
Coming to the present topic, I don’t think the apparent causality rate with ghatam artists, if that is statistically significant, has anything to do with what I suggested above. I would rather call it “professional hazard” where certain professions are beseeched with issues that are surmountable but nobody wants to address it. First of all ghatam playing does not impose a toll on your body. Secondly, in all the concerts the mridangam player hardly gives any chance to the upapakkavadhyam players such that in a three hour concert, the ghatam and khanjira players are involved for no more than 30 minutes! I think it is, as a couple of forumites pointed out, a socio economic issue. Plaghat Sundaram is related to me and he was the one who spent several scorching days in Chennai to get the first good mridangam for Rohan. He has told me in detail how he had to hide his health conditions so that the “main artists” will not ignore him and continue to call him for their concerts. What the “main artist” or the sabha secretary paid Mr Sundaram is a different question. This brings back another incident to mind. Last year, I was chatting with the secretary of a very very prominent sabha in Chennai in December. A senior slot concert was going on with all artists deemed “senior vidwans”. I casually asked the secretary how much it costs to arrange a concert and in particular how much does he pay the percussionists. He was quite frank and said” if it is some one like Vellore, we may pay 1500 rupees. But the upapakkavadhyam people are demanding lot of money. Look at today’s concert. The ghatam player is asking for 800 rupees”. Remember, the ghatam artist on that day is one of the topmost in the business today and the sabha has a lineage that goes beyond Music Academy. To expect 800 rupees in 2012 is considered a blasphemy! I have many such examples involving Sangeetha Kalanidhis vs. mridagm artists highlighting the economic plight of the accompanists. The story is no different when a team tours the US, except that the dollar to rupee conversion leaves them slightly better off.
In sum, my theory is the pakkavadhyam artists are treated very poorly economically and professionally that leaves them with no resources to take care of basic existence, let alone address health issues. Added to this is problems of drug and alcohol abuse which doesn’t help their cause any better(Presumably this is less of an issue with the younger generation artists). A system has to develop where there is equitable allocation of returns and a mechanism to provide decent living means and health facilities to professional artists. In the US, there is a union of artists that ensures at least a payment commensurate with the artist’s contribution. If Rohan is invited to perform with a western music team, he is assured of travel, transportation, hotel and fees. He doesn’t have to worry about the audience turn out etc. In contrast, last year a major Carnatic organization called him and asked to play for a SK artist. They said” we now treat you as a senior vidwan and accordingly we have decide to pay you 150$”. That did not cover even his travel and he told them “ get lost”. This attiude has to change in India as well as in the US and other countries. The health care in the US stinks and that is a different beast that I don’t want to touch upon here. . But I strongly advocate the artists in India, the accompanists for certain, to think seriously of unionizing so that they receive the treatment they deserve and can deal with the ill defined “main artist” clique and the nefarious “sabha secretaries”. Good luck.
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are purely mine and not aimed at any particular individual or sabhas.
Dr Rama Krishnamurthy

[Thalaivarda]

though the ghatam artist may play for 30 min in a concert, what about the practice he/she puts in for hours, days and years.

[hnbhagavan]

Dear Rasikas,

The matter of low payment for Pakavadyam artists is a matter of concern.Sri T M Krishna is reported to share payment equally with all the players on the stage.
In a cricket match,all the 11 players get the same remuneration.Hence there is genuine case for more transparency and deserving payment to the artists.On any scale payment , Rs 1500 to leading Ghatam player is ridiculous.
The Sabhas are mainly depending on the sponsors as ticket collection proceeds may not be able to meet even decoration expenses.The audience also should be willing to pay better and attend the concerts.People are willing to pay exorbitantly in restaurants.A case in point is the steady increase in GOBIMANTURIAN rates every month!
The prime artist on the stage is the captain and his remuneration will be the highest.No grudge about this.But other artists on the stage should get remunerations which are worthy of their expertise.
I feel the organizing group in this forum should throw more light on this topic.I request Sri Ravikiran to share his thoughts in the forum.

[Nick H]

I think that RKrishnamurthy has fleshed out what a couple of us have pointed too. The economic life of such a musician in Carnatic music is a [sb]ad joke. I guess that this is one reason that ghatam artists seem to top the list of those working in fusion and other musical projects?

But this takes us directly to an oft-touched topic of the the entire CM economy, especially in Chennai with its sponsored free concerts, which is a very big question indeed.

[hnbhagavan]

Dear friends

In case Rs 50,000/- is set apart for a music concert,What is the breakup - say 4 artists on stage:
-Vocal
-Violin
-Mridangam
-Ghatam
-Tambura

[chitravina ravikiran]

A few of us have brought professional hazards and standard of life as a reason. We have to note that:

(a) Several artistes who were economically much more secure than others such as Shri T V Vasan, Shri Bangalore Manjunath, Shri Govindarajan were affected.

(b) Socio-economic conditions is not limited to any one genre of instruments. If anything, ghatam typically gets more exposure/opportunities than kanjira/morsing, whose purveyors seem to live longer (on average).

I'm sure the reasons are a complex-combination of several factors listed by forumites here. But somehow it seems to go back to science.

1.

Could it be related to breathing? The kind of breathing and the frequency with which they have to do it for employing certain techniques

2.

To keep the pot from breaking easily (as with tempered glass), do they use any substance (vegetable source or other) which is poisonous?

I feel that these could be studied a bit more. Perhaps a ghatam exponent in this forum could throw light on these?

3.

...in one technique, Ghatam is moved to and fro from chest. If vidwans get together and illustrate to cardiologist and other experts, some solution may be found.

I can request a top cardiologist friend of mine (who is also an exponent of the chitravina!) to take a look at this...

[rshankar]

The first step would be to collect exhaustive information on ghaTham players, and players of other instruments, vocalists etc., and perform a retrospective analysis controlling for factors such as age, BMI, socio-economic status, smoking/tobacco use, family history, and other comorbid conditions like diabetes, hypercholesterolemia, hypertension, heart disease etc. to name a few, and see if any one of the categories (playing the ghaTham, or being a vocalist) is an independent risk factor for either premature death or a composite end-point like death+cardiovascular events - the sample sizes will have to be sufficiently large for the results of the analysis to be valid.
If the results support what anecdotal evidence seems to suggest, i.e., playing the ghaTham is an independent risk factor for death, then, this study can be considered as hypothesis-generating, and should lead to at least 2-3 more - a prospective study to confirm the hypothesis, and a smaller mechanism-of-action study to understand why it happens...and finally, one designed to prevent this outcome

[TheListener]

W.r.t some of the comments above on the ghatam playing duration in concerts:
The less % of time a ghatam player plays in a concert cannot be used to dismiss health issues, if any, involved in the practice of the art. The amount of time in public performance for any artist will always be but a very small portion of what s/he spends in total with his instrument/art, including regular practice and teaching. So, net-playing time in concerts is a non-factor w.r.t above.

[RKrishnamurthy]

I am also curious that we lost two top notch khanjira players in quick succession!
Dr Rama Krishnamurthy

[RKrishnamurthy]

Here are some “scientific” thoughts on the topic
(1) From what I have observed, the ghatam makes very little contact with the player’s body. Occasionally, the artist appears to apply the instrument to the body and tuck the stomach in the process. This movement should be beneficial to the abdominal muscles, if at all.
(2) For ages, Indians have used the clay pot to store water and other food items without any consequence.
(3) There is another aspect to consider. If the clay used to make the ghatam contains uranium or thorium (some beach sands in Kerala contain monazite, a thorium containing mineral) that can potentially be a concern. The radioactivity from uranium or thorium is usually not enough to cause worry, but one of the decay products of uranium is the radioactive gas Radon and that is a deadly carcinogenic gas. It causes lung cancer. A significant number of people in the US die as a result of inhaling Radon that accumulates in their basements. With the kind of ventilation in Indian homes, I suspect Radon is a threat. It is very easy and cheap to measure environmental Radon.
(4) If the artists “apply” some chemicals which is toxic to protect the instrument , two possibilities need to be considered. If the danger is from breathing, the material should have a very high vapor pressure. That can be a source of danger for people other than the artist too. Also a substance with high vapor pressure would not stay for long on the ghatam. The second possibility is administration of the substance orally. This is a good possibility since many people do not wash their hands frequently before consuming food. In any case, there are analytical techniques that can provide detailed composition of a ghatam’s surface.
Dr Rama Krishnamurthy

[hnbhagavan]

Dear Sri Ravikiran,

I request you to kindly explore the meeting with cardiologist and Ghatam Vidwans.

[munirao2001]

To get the facts, the artists medical report on the cause of the death, their illness, life style habits, economic status and the very living conditions required for a truly detailed analysis and arriving at the correlation and conclusion. Not based on speculation and hearsay.
munirao2001

[RKrishnamurthy]

I doubt if it will be possible to get"medical records" an so on. At least in the US, it is next to impossible. The fundamental question is to ask if there is a "statistically significant" number of ghatam artists dying in the past, say 5 years,compared to other percussionists. I doubt. In the past 5 years,if a comparable number of percussionists died, the whole hypothesis goes up in flames.If statistically significant, one has to include variables like age etc. This is a field called Epideomology and requires much work. I teach this in my Envoronemtal Science Class every year.
Prof Krishnamurthy

[chitravina ravikiran]

I quite agree it is a tough study. Someone with a scientific approach backed by an academic institution must take it up.

The subject matter is real enough when one sees a trend over the last few decades. The %ages are definitely high.

As a first step I'm going to try to set up a preliminary session with a cardiologist to study any obvious issues when mutually convenient for the artistes and the doctor.

[Rsachi]

Ravikiran,
Whereas an interview with a Cardiologist is a good idea for a group of Ghatam artistes, what Ravi proposed before is the correct way for a correlation and risk factor study. We need to enrol not only current artistes but get as many data points as possible. Maybe Ravi can give a template and we can launch a data gathering survey, the data even anonymously fed in, but enough granularity.
Anyway thanks for all your initiatives!

[smala]

This is a field called Epideomology and requires much work.

.....this in my Envoronemtal Science Class ...

Spell check?

[chitravina ravikiran]

Rsachi wrote:

what Ravi proposed before is the correct way for a correlation and risk factor study. We need to enroll not only current artistes but get as many data points as possible

Perfectly correct sir! I'd estimate weeks of interviews with artistes, families, colleagues etc and months of documentation & analysis etc before conclusions can be drawn. Which is why it'd be ideal for a research scholar to take this up as a study. Hopefully a few technical/posture improvements can be worked out, which can result in greater effectiveness and endurance of current & future artistes.

I have interesting postulates about this but don't want to air them out before studies are carried out. To give a glimpse, I've observed that a keen perception of energy cycles during both vocal and instrumental music production can make an enormous impact on endurance. But this is a whole new area, perhaps more suited for a Lec-dem/Q&A session.

[Rsachi]

Fascinating. I was thinking on similar lines.
Who will do the research? Maybe my Alma mater IITM biomedical engineering dept. /student?
Who will foot the costs not covered by IITM? Maybe rasikas.org volunteer contributions
Who will guide it.? Yourself, sir
Who from rasikas will oversee? Ravi
Who will tabulate the data are of current and past Vidwans to bee interviewed?

[SrinathK]

On a general note I have been reading about the hazards of excessive sitting that characterizes our modern life now-a-days and it is scary to read how it is linked to all the following. This is taken from my FB notes and while it mainly applies to the typical college student and desk professionals, it has plenty in common with music too.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oivvsz105e088 ... killer.txt

Did I miss any modern disease? I would say that musicans (and everyone else for that matter) have to add strength, endurance, flexibility (yoga) AND sufficient recovery into their routine as far as practically possible. Now what I wrote here might not be particularly connected with the ghatam, but I think the thread has opened up a related issue -- taking a closer look at health concerns of musicians. So a thorough study on ghatam artistes must also include other aspects of life off the stage as well -- especially diet, exercise and breathing habits.

[rshankar]

Who from rasikas will oversee? Ravi

I have a spreadsheet with ~60 variables that would be worth collecting from participating indiciduals and their families to understand some patterns and generate hypotheses reagrding morbidity and mortality in this group that can be tested in a prospective study. I can email it to anyone interested.