Violin accompaniment - An analysis of the best

[venkatakailasam]

one more of KVN concert where LGJ supports....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8zz-5EekZc


Ariyakudi's chadur raga is here..

http://myblogkumara.blogspot.in/2011/03 ... engar.html

listen it here..

http://mfi.re/listen/afobg18sxabeijj/p- ... ga_RTP.mp3

[venkatakailasam]

read post 145 at...

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... &start=125

[shrikanth_mohan]

Sry for the long gap. Had been caught up with work. We seem to have a lot of LGJ and MTC recordings. Could someone post more recordings of MSG/TNK/MC/VVS accompanying??

@Varsha - The latest audio that you posted, is it a duet bet VVS and VVS Murari/VV ravi ? Not able to think of anyone else

@Uday Shankar and SrinathK - Thanks for the extremely lucid analysis of TC's violin. Have a doubt. Are you suggesting that TC actually keeps the swara position on both the strings ( say S2-S3 ) or does he keep the swarasthana on one string ( say S2 ) but actually bows both ( S2-S3 ). Looking at the picture, It appears that there would be considerable gap between the S2 and S3 strings even at the bottom end of the finger board. Wudnt it make more sense to keep both the strings parallel and at a tiny gap ( the same tiny gap is maintained both at the bridge and at the fingerboard ). This way, both the bowing, Placing swara sthanas on both strings simultaneously and gamakas would be easier.

[venkatakailasam]

E' SWARA 007 Ariyakudi Ramanuja IYengar TNK PMI concert...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e7wP6UFvIQ

[venkatakailasam]

E SWARA 001 AlatthUr Brothers VOcal with TNK PMI Sri SwAminAtha Khanjira xvid


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEG-NotdPP0

[varsha]

VVS and VV Ravi

[varsha]

@Varsha - The latest audio that you posted, is it a duet bet VVS and VVS Murari/VV ravi

Reply in #156

[venkatakailasam]

Varshaji..

I am not sure as to what your post 156 indicates..

Here is my pie..

e swara ins-001-VV Subramaniam and VV Ravi-Violin Duet..

http://mfi.re/listen/46i6dd0t7oo97yd/e_ ... o_xvid.mp3

I may be posting concerts where MSG is accompanying...

[cpblog]

[update][/update]
Being re-edited

[cpblog]

Text deleted

[varsha]

Could someone post more recordings of MSG/TNK/MC/VVS accompanying??

MSG/--------
DKJ/MSG/UKS
https://archive.org/details/SrIValliDev ... iPapanasam

I may have made many silly mistakes in my life . All these are compensated by the experience of chasing such combos - day after day - relentlessly .Enjoy

[uday_shankar]

Are you suggesting that TC actually keeps the swara position on both the strings ( say S2-S3 )

Yes.

or does he keep the swarasthana on one string ( say S2 ) but actually bows both ( S2-S3 )

No .

Looking at the picture, It appears that there would be considerable gap between the S2 and S3 strings even at the bottom end of the finger board. Wudnt it make more sense to keep both the strings parallel and at a tiny gap ( the same tiny gap is maintained both at the bridge and at the fingerboard ). This way, both the bowing, Placing swara sthanas on both strings simultaneously and gamakas would be easier

These are very valid questions. Since Shri TC is not around to explain his reasons we can only second guess. Here are some thoughts:

1) @alpajnani has suggested that TC had "extra wide" fingers.

2) If the gap becomes too small, there's always the danger that at higher excitation energy (energetic bowing) the two strings may interfere with one another.

3) Going out on a limb, back in post #125 I have alluded to @alpajnani's very important point about small differences in where you put your finger on the two strings due to the asymmetry of the way the fingers approach the strings; and then added my observations about guitar fret placement, which adds another layers of complexity. The bottom line is that we can formulate a sort of working principle, well known among string instrumentalists all over the world:

"When two strings of vastly different physical characteristics (gauge, wound strings vs plain steel, etc..) of identical lengths and tuned in unison or one or two octaves apart, are suspended parallel (or slightly divergent in a symmetrical way) to each other, over a finger or a fret board, the placement of different notes along the fretboard are not at the exact same linear distances from the lower bridge (i.e., the one away from the the plucked or bowed end). There are slight differences, with the problem accentuated as one proceeds up the fret/finger board".

The reason for this is that when you depress a string over the board, you are changing the tension to something slightly different from that of the open string. The changes in tension differ for different string gauges and pitches and the the way that change in tension affects the pitch is also different. For strings closely matched in physical characteristics it doesn't matter too much but for vast divergences such as the two guitar E strings, or Chowdiah's main Sarani pair, S2-S3, the effect can be noticed.

Now add to this alpajnani's observations about the asymmetrical approach to the two strings by the player's finger tips. Chowdiah had to summon great artistic technique to place his finger appropriately on the two strings so he can get a perfect match between the two strings at all positions. A violinist has to play even a single string strictly by feel, now imagine having to develop a feel for two strings at the same time, which vary slightly in the placements of the notes AT ALL POINTS. Mind boggling.

Analogously, on the chitravina, learners are instructed to place the teflon kattai exactly perpendicular to the three Sarani strings (two of them are identically tuned steel strings, while the third is an octave lower, wound string). However, if you observer maestro Chitravina Ravikiran, you will often find him placing it at an angle. He is adjusting "on the fly" for the slight differences in the placement of the notes on the two steel strings vs the wound string ! Art is art !!!

One more observation...

The tone of the violin is very distinct when you press down the string on the finger board vs "lightly touching" the strings. I wonder if anybody noticed that often Chowdiah's (and Shri Sethuramiah's) violin sounds like the "lightly touching" tone, especially as he proceeds up the finger board. The reason I think that happens (if it does, I may be imagining it) is because I suspect Chowdiah was placing his fingers "between" the S2-S3 pair, not particularly pressing down hard on either, but striving to get the "perfect match" between the two strings all the time. If true, this may be another partial answer to @shrikanth_mohan's question about why Shri TC kept the strings of a given pair are as far apart as seen in the picture instead of bringing them closer together...i.e., he wanted to keep the additional wriggle room for the finger "between" the strings to help get the correct "match".

@SrikanthK, @alpajnani ?

[Aditto]

Semmangudis , coaxing Lalgudi in the Suruti Varnam concert - after Lalgudi choses not to reply to the final flurry of swaras - and says Vasiyya --- then a pregnant puase , the violinist collecting his thoughts , and breaking into a reply - magical-

Varsha garu, Can you please share the suruti varnam record. I searched in SP but could not find one.

[venkatakailasam]

E SWARA 025 CHEMBAI Concert with MSG and TVG and Alangudi Ramachandran..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VV3ZWeUtzA

[venkatakailasam]

There are three varnam in surati..at this link..if you are interested..

http://e-swari.blogspot.in/2011/03/varnams.html

041..Vedavalli
043..SSI
047..TMT

[venkatakailasam]

E SWARA 172 concert MSS VVS karaikudi mani V Nagarajan A three hour concert..

VVS at his best..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0q9PbeT25k

[Aditto]

Thanks Venkatakailasam garu. I have heard the varnams you mentioned earlier.
I want the varnam mentioned by Varsha garu I have about 4 Suruti Varnams by SSI...2 from national programs...and 2 from normal concerts i guess. I do not have that particular version.

[venkatakailasam]

I am not sure as to whether you have come across this link...

A staggering 1761 varnam clips are there..

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/fs_search.php

when you get the link type 'varnam' in the place search..

you will be guided at varnam page..

[venkatakailasam]

E SWARA 025 CHEMBAI Concert with MSG and TVG and Alangudi Ramachandran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VV3ZWeU ... fA&index=2

[alpajnani]

There are three varnam in surati..at this link..if you are interested..

http://e-swari.blogspot.in/2011/03/varnams.html

041..Vedavalli
043..SSI
047..TMT

I think what Aditto is asking for is the concert that starts with the Surutti varnam that Varsha is referring to and not just the Surutti varnam itself. As such, I do remember hearing this somewhere, but can't find it. Varshaji - would greatly appreciate if you could point out the Album ID on Sangeethapriya (if it is on sangeethapriya) or provide more pointers (main piece etc.).

Thanks.

[alpajnani]

Looking at the picture, It appears that there would be considerable gap between the S2 and S3 strings even at the bottom end of the finger board. Wudnt it make more sense to keep both the strings parallel and at a tiny gap ( the same tiny gap is maintained both at the bridge and at the fingerboard ). This way, both the bowing, Placing swara sthanas on both strings simultaneously and gamakas would be easier

2) If the gap becomes too small, there's always the danger that at higher excitation energy (energetic bowing) the two strings may interfere with one another.

I figure at least three potential complications in placing the strings closer:
1. What Uday_Shankar mentions above is probably the biggest challenge (depending upon sruti and gauge/type of string I have seen violin strings at peak resonance oscillating in the 3-5 mm range peak-to-peak (thus requiring two strings to be spaced at least 6+mm apart; not counting differences in string elasticity etc.). Note that even if this spacing were managed somehow on the bridge and tailpiece, these can become issues closer to the top nut on the neck, where, spacing will definitely be lesser, while open string oscillation amplitudes may not be (depends upon "mode" of vibration....)
2. Structural set up of the violin tailpiece can present challenges (and potential associated effect on tonal quality)
3. to make them truly parallel is perhaps impossible given the space limitations on the top nut ("base" of the finger board) - harks back to #1.....

On another note - bowing two adjascent strings together is actually relatively quite easy - finger positioning is perhaps the only/biggest challenge + associated stylistic issues.

One more observation...

The tone of the violin is very distinct when you press down the string on the finger board vs "lightly touching" the strings. I wonder if anybody noticed that often Chowdiah's (and Shri Sethuramiah's) violin sounds like the "lightly touching" tone, especially as he proceeds up the finger board. The reason I think that happens (if it does, I may be imagining it) is because I suspect Chowdiah was placing his fingers "between" the S2-S3 pair, not particularly pressing down hard on either, but striving to get the "perfect match" between the two strings all the time. If true, this may be another partial answer to @shrikanth_mohan's question about why Shri TC kept the strings of a given pair are as far apart as seen in the picture instead of bringing them closer together...i.e., he wanted to keep the additional wriggle room for the finger "between" the strings to help get the correct "match".

If you are listening to a well tuned violin with a well matched string set (and a well matched player!! ) it becomes truly hard to distinguish when they are in the upper half of the primary octave of the string (e.g. P2 - S2 on S1 string) vs. the lower half of the primary octave of the next higher string (P2 - S2 on P2 string) - other than perhaps with slight differences in how gamaka's are articulated - and if it is MSG, all bets are off: it is typically hard to figure out even when he is at the upper end octaves of any string!!)

I have not heard enough of Chowdiah's violin to comment on this - but touching the string/pressing very lightly is indeed a simple and easy technique to get to a note while minimizing apaswara "risk" (particularly reaching S2 on S1 string, reaching P2 on P1 string etc., given you can also quickly "tune" it by changing finger pressure; you run the risk of a true falsetto like tone by lightening up pressure on the bow as well). However, sound quality and power (as well as the singer sometimes ) usually suffer quite a bit with this "falsetto" approach.

Another aspect to think about is vocalists typically are very picky about which octave the violinist is playing - I have routinely learnt to appreciate that the violinist playing at the higher octave when the vocalist is in the lower octave is a complete NO NO. The reverse works however, as long as the vocalist doesn't need "support" at the upper octaves. Wonder how this was addressed with Chowdiah's two octave playing?

[eesha]

I am not sure as to whether you have come across this link...

A staggering 1761 varnam clips are there..

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/fs_search.php

when you get the link type 'varnam' in the place search..

you will be guided at varnam page..

The link is wrong. That link given is the link of results page which will not yield anything if directly accessed.

The correct link is http://www.sangeethapriya.org/search.php where you have to give varnam as the search pattern

[SrinathK]

Lightly touching the string at a node results in triggering the natural harmonic at that particular location and it results in flute like sounds something you hear quite a bit on Chowdiah's violin in addition to the octaves. For clear articulation it is necessary for the string to make full contact with the fingerboard otherwise at faster passages squeaks will be heard due to unnecessary harmonics

With a good ear for tonal colour it is possible to tell the string on which a violinist plays. The sound of an open E (steel E) on which the pa is played is rather nasal while the pa played on the sa string is richer. On good violins every string will have it's own vocal timbre. But then it is very hard to avoid an open E because of gamaka between pa-da and pa-ni in Carnatic music unless one is an MSG.