Perfection with correctness - An article by Sri Ravikiran

[srkris]

He shared this article elsewhere, members please comment.

http://www.dc-epaper.com/PUBLICATIONS/D ... 5013.shtml

What I found interesting is that he suggests a senior musician's experience helps determine what is acceptable vs what is correct/incorrect in the absence of clear cut rules. How can that be when experience itself is subjective? Surely an experienced musician should be able to "explain" a non-grammatical usage handled by him/her, rather than just say "I know this by experience".

[varsha]

How can that be when experience itself is subjective?

Depends on whose experience . The author is talking of his experience , I presume
Here are some other experiences ....
-----------
No work of Art is ever Completed.Only abandoned….Paul Valery
-------------
The job of the artist is to deepen the mystery .Francis Bacon
-------------
Only a born artist can endure the labour of becoming one.Comtesse Diane
-------------
We do not write because we want to;we write because we have to.Somerset Maugham
-------------
And there are some like these ....
When the Boston Symphony played an Avant-garde composition which repeats a single chord endlessly, someone in the balcony shouted “Stop ! I’ll confess !! “
-------------

On a different note , i remember , once Shivram Karanth ( are there words to describe him ?) spoke to the audience after a school debate which was on the subject ; Does God exist or not .
He was speaking after delivering the prizes . For 10 minutes he argued that God did not exist . And we were all willing to believe him . The next ten,he argued that God existed . And we were willing to follow him to the edge of the world.

So i would not be surprised if the artist says the exact opposite in his next post . He will find takers for that too . And takers for both ,as well . How else would they be able to play and sing as though for me the individual .it is a linking of experiences ,not within one soul - the artist's - but something more mysterious . What other way can be there to explain this wonderful thing called Music. And with this concoction that goes by the name Carnatic Music , it gets close to a Viswaroopam effect

[varsha]

Silence
By Edgar Lee Masters 1869-1950
--------
A curious boy asks an old soldier
Sitting in front of the grocery store,
“How did you lose your leg?”
And the old soldier is struck with silence,

Or his mind flies away
Because he cannot concentrate it on Gettysburg.
It comes back jocosely
And he says, “A bear bit it off.”

And the boy wonders, while the old soldier
Dumbly, feebly lives over
The flashes of guns, the thunder of cannon,
The shrieks of the slain,
And himself lying on the ground,
And the hospital surgeons, the knives,
And the long days in bed.

But if he could describe it all
He would be an artist.
But if he were an artist there would be deeper wounds
Which he could not describe.

[VK RAMAN]

"a senior musician's experience helps determine what is acceptable vs what is correct/incorrect in the absence of clear cut rules" a very well played out tradition and custom among all Indians who are even afraid of calling their seniors by name. Do what I taught you, do what you are supposed to do, do not break the rules, are all standard rules set by custom and tradition in India. Any one breaking free will face the consequence of neglect and recognition by the echelons of power in music.

[chitravina ravikiran]

srkris:

he suggests a senior musician's experience helps determine what is acceptable vs what is correct/incorrect in the absence of clear cut rules.

Where? On the contrary, I think what you are saying typically resonates with my own views...

But is this the sentence you are probably referring to?

With years of learning, practicing, listening to quality artistes and contemplation, a student evolves competent judgement?

Please clarify if it is a different sentence!

[vgovindan]

Perfection?

The oldest definition of "perfection", fairly precise and distinguishing the shades of the concept, goes back to Aristotle. In Book Delta of the Metaphysics, he distinguishes three meanings of the term, or rather three shades of one meaning, but in any case three different concepts.

That is perfect:
1. which is complete — which contains all the requisite parts;
2. which is so good that nothing of the kind could be better;
3. which has attained its purpose. (Source - Wikipedia)

Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
Vince Lombardi

[srkris]

Sri Ravikiran,

Sorry if I misquoted you, yes that was the sentence which made me think you were making that point.

What exactly is 'judgement' in this context?

[chitravina ravikiran]

What exactly is 'judgement' in this context?

Very good question! Huge subject but I'll just give a couple of quick examples alone of where judgement comes in for now to give a basic idea... With good practice, learning under discerning gurus, listening to various quality artistes and contemplation/analysis, an artiste develops a sense of:

How to make Mohanam work without use of M2 and N3.

How to make a Shanmukhapriya attractive without D2 (which may seem dazzling but is still a clear violation)

How to give the sphuritam in notes like D2 and R2 in ragas like Reetigowla...

[chitravina ravikiran]

what is correct/incorrect in the absence of clear cut rules.

This is another aspect that I've been endeavouring to address everywhere.

1. Actually, in more than 95% of the cases in CM, the rules are clear cut. I have been campaigning that thinking also be as clear cut. And this is easier than it sounds. (I'm addressing this mainly for students/rasikas, not seasoned professionals, to whom some of it may seem obvious.)

2. In many cases, easily avoidable mistakes are made between ragas that are closely allied - like Manirangu & Pushpalatika, Saraswatimanohari & Kokiladhwani, Manohari & Jayanarayani, Margahindolam & Saramati. Because they are relatively rare, they're assumed to be complicated and fanciful phrases are used. The sequences are pretty much simple and unambiguous.

3. Mistakes in sequence/gamakas can easily be avoided even in popular ragas many times (GMPD in Sowrashtra), N and G oscillation in Nayaki etc). One may be hard-placed to justify them as stylistic.

4. Stylistic justification is possible only when two or more ways of doing something can be right: Both G2 & G3 in Anandabhairavi will be acceptable in PMGGM, (Marivere gati swara-sahitya), PDNPM or PNPM in Shree (Tyagaraja avoided the latter but MD and SS used it).

5. There are literally 100s of contexts in which simple, clear cut rules are used/violated, which definitely has wide-ranging impact on the overall quality of CM. (I'm in tune with Nakkeerar on this!)

6. I've personally seen that avoiding blatant violations is not only easy, but actually creates more aesthetic and beautiful music.

But this being a huge subject, I'll be happy to clarify anything further, if needed!

[srkris]

Thank you for the clarifications, I see what you mean.

[sureshvv]

How to make Mohanam work without use of M2 and N3.

I was not aware that these notes were sneaked into Mohanam. But now that you mention it, I have felt sometimes that Mohanam was creeping into Mohanakalyani territory. Are there any particular phrases using these notes that stand out? Are they considered legitimate?

[munirao2001]

"“Artistes at the top with good following have a responsibility to sing or play exemplary music as this can positively influence succeeding generations“.
Yes, indeed and Well said. I would like to add uncompromisingly keeping it simple, full of lasting values of Classical not taking resort to cheap thrills and excitement through creating compulsive, habitual and instantaneous feedback of appreciation of music .
When in serious doubt and conflict in the violation of grammar/theory, rasa shrishti - aesthetic -primacy of lakshya- only gives exemption, as an exception and is condoned.

munirao2001

[chitravina ravikiran]

felt sometimes that Mohanam was creeping into Mohanakalyani territory. Are there any particular phrases using these notes that stand out? Are they considered legitimate?

Plenty of fast phrases (SSDPGRS as SNDPGRS, RSSDPPG, as RSNDPMG, etc). They are not legit but artistes like MVI, MLV etc who used to render them with flair had 99% other great qualities which made this seem like a minor point. But even they used to be critiqued by grammar-conscious listeners/artistes. If students, who are nowhere in that league yet render such phrases, it'll sound awful... Mohanam can sound excellent even without those usages since it does offer plenty of scope for many other fast passages.

full of lasting values of Classical not taking resort to cheap thrills and excitement

Your father was indeed a model in this regard indeed... An admirer of Shri Ramnad Krishnan shared an incident, which I'm sure many of you may have heard of. When Shri RK was complimented after his concert for his excellent Athana, he unhesitatingly declared, "If you want an even better rendition, you must listen to Shri Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao..."

[msakella]

I totally agree with our brother-member, VK RAMAN. amsharma

[munirao2001]

Ravi Kiran " They are not legit but artistes like MVI, MLV etc who used to render them with flair. But even they used to be critiqued by grammar-conscious listeners/artistes."
With Primacy for Lakshya, Lakshana/grammar transgressions, of any performer rightly deserves positive criticism. If performers do not care, the quality of lakshana sangita suffers. Over a period of time lakshana sangita loses its relevance and many works will either suffer or completely lost over period of time.
Ravi Kiran, with Guru's blessings and your tapasya, you have achieved the perfection and your music stands testimony for unfettered manodharma, strictly adhering to the lakshana and delivery of very high ideals of Classical Carnatic Music, setting the example for many prodigals to become Great Maestros and Maestros. Now by sharing the knowledge, you are continuing to serve the cause of Classical Carnatic Music appreciation, far and wide along with your illustrious family.

munirao2001

[VK RAMAN]

"with Guru's blessings and your tapasya, you have achieved the perfection" - if this true, then you have closed all doors for Ravikiran to excel in everything he plans to do now and in future IMHO

[munirao2001]

VKRaman
Please understand state of Perfection is always related to the work one is involved currently and acquisition of knowledge and putting it in life practice for the benefit of one self and universal self. Attainment of perfection is not self limiting and in fact opens the vision and motivation in mission. One has to continue the pursuit life long in all the facets of knowledge and aim to achieve the perfection. Every one, including your good self, must have experienced it .

munirao2001

[vgovindan]

Perfection is neither recognisable nor certifiable nor can be partitioned - it is an abiding state. 'kaTradu kaimmaN aLavu, kallAdadu ulagaLavu' - 'what one has learnt is just a handful and universeful is there yet to be learnt' - Tamil adage.

[munirao2001]

vgovindan
In matters of Pradhana vaada-materialism-Perfection is identified with set standards or benchmarks, recognized and rewarded on its attainment. Never left to imagination, speculation and ambiguity. Serious, unbiased and free from prejudice are required for eliminating or controlling the subjectivity in judgment. Continuity in success, contribution and creation of values are the recognizable end results. Yes the state of perfection is indivisible but repeatable.
"katradu adainda/purinda/terinda ulagalavu, karkadadu adayada/puriyada/teriyada ulagalavu, theriyamayai vilakki therivippade ulagalavu nanmai"

In matters of Vivarta vaada-idealism-Perfection is a state of Abhedatva-non-differentiating or Sthita pragrnatva-still mind.

munirao2001

[kvchellappa]

Does music perhaps straddle on both (Pradhana or material) and abstract (spiritual) and so definition of perfection has to satisfy both criteria? I know this is too abstract to mean anything. I was wondering whether we are trying to complicate what Sri Ravikiran is tring to make simple.

[vasanthakokilam]

This is turning out to be a wonderful and meaningful thread, though we have moved into a more general and abstract definitions than what Sri.Ravikiran wrote about and expounded further here. That is great. we can go in both directions. Perfection in general and what it means in the context of a carnatic music performance.

My understanding of Ravikiran's main idea is 'Don't throw the baby with the bathwater'. That is, there is no ambiguity in 90+% of the cases. Don't magnify the 10% where there is some variations, fuzziness across schools and generations which is perfectly normal for an art-form this magnitude, as an excuse for not aiming for perfection in the 90% where it is indeed possible.

So, in that context, what is perfection? Learning to execute the contours of a gamakam perfectly, learning all the phrases and sequences that give life to the raga, learning to avoid the ones that subtract from the raga effect ( this is more important than the previous one ), learning the exceptions and its contexts etc.

So acquiring this knowledge with perfection is indeed possible. But the wisdom that arises from such knowledge is something where we do not want to attach the word 'perfection' since that is a life long process. People say that Ariyakudi knew just after 10 minutes into a concert, what kind of an audience he has and then instinctively adjust to provide the 'perfect' concert for that audience. This is just an example. That 'wisdom' comes from tremendous amount of experience and intuition about how music is appreciated by people.

[arasi]

VK,
Some of the things you have said make a lot of sense.

There is an ocean of difference between painting by numbers (that is, filling in colors according to numbers, as you find in the book) and creating a masterpiece. Utterly new students with a varying amount of innate talent will start off 'through the text book way, rote' way in learning music.

Then, dependent on their intuitive sense, practice and the kind of guru they get, they will go past that stage and create music of varying degrees of artistry, of course, with the help of their guru and with the help of their own talents which gain experience as years go by.

The rasikAs too discuss it intelligently, and with their individual experiences with music.

An expert has started this discussion. In the realm of music, Ravikiran has all the top qualities (sakala kalyANa guNAs) and he shares his ideas with us. I think we should be grateful that he would spend time with us thus. Though I may not understand all the scholarly aspects of such discussions, I'm thankful he has a lucid way in explaining things. He is a great communicator to reach even novices to an extent.

VK,
I also liked your example which says 'wisdom' comes from tremendous amount of experience and intuition...

What better person to hear all this from, but Ravikiran who has the clout and a great ability for communicating??

The word perfection is a bit intimidating. Is it something akin to realization in this context?

[rshankar]

All this talk of perfection reminds me of what Salvador Dali had to say: 'have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it'! I guess the idea is to enjoy the journey to perfection.

[munirao2001]

To get the clarity, understand, appreciate and stay committed in attaining and steadfastly remain in the state of Perfection being, we must know the Chief goals of Indian Classical Music-1. Spiritual- Metaphysical - SAT ( attained perfection of perception of reality), Chit - attained perfection of sthitapragnatva-stillness of the mind(intellectual), unmoved and unswayed by the temporal and differentiating factors of good-bad-ugly(as nature is having all the three classifications) - Ananda - state of perfection being in Bliss-with highest degree of compassion to all the living beings and derived pleasure of peace-both inward and outward. The sadhaka/practitioner aims and achieves for his spiritual attainment and well being. When the sadhaka/practitioner becomes the performer, he partakes the ananda of Self with universal self, making the music immortal. The rasikas realizing the moments of potent power - abnegation of the self, re energizing - of such immortal music also partake the pleasure. Realizing the high values, develop craving for recall pleasure.
2. Ranjakatva - Ideally, Pandita and Pamara ranjakatva. The state of perfection, dharma or duty is entertaining and delivery of total satisfaction and happiness to the rasikas, who are demonstrating their choice and support by their attendance and enabling more and more opportunities. Ariyakudi, performer par excellence, is one of the best example. He had highest regard and respect for the rasikas and striven best to deliver total satisfaction.

The student/practitioner has to make the choice and do the sadhaka-practice - 95% perspiration and 5% inspiration - with aim for perfection. Pratyaksha Guru and Paroksha Guru like Ravi Kiran's marga darshana should be taken with utmost sincerity and to be followed.

Rasikas also should get initiated to get adequate knowledge for music appreciation of high merits and values and extend maximum support to sadhakas/practitioners with Ravikiran's C-content . I- Intent. D-delivery as the ways and means. Rasikas should aim and achieve perfection in rasikathva.

I have taken the liberty of your time with the intention of sharing my clarity and understanding and also desire that the sharing of knowledge by the Great Maestro Ravi Kiran should be fully taken, paving the way for CM, the preferred choice pan India and Global- reaching masses not restricted to class only.

munirao2001