TM Krishna's view in The Hindu dt 13/dec

[Rsachi]

Precisimo!

[cacm]

There are two major factors at play here, beyond the inherent musical abilities of musicians of these two generations.
You listened to seasoned veterans when you were young.
Listening to younger musicians when you are older is a different experience.

MAYBE BUT Abishek R is GENUINE in his artistry as well as Theatrical abilities and effects. He is TECHNICALLY SOUND when he does these & shows the Discipline of LGJ & PALGHAT RAGHU. I feel this is a HUGE DIFFERENCE THAT COUNTS MORE THAN AGE OF LISTENER ETC. VKV

[alpajnani]

MAYBE BUT Abishek R is GENUINE in his artistry as well as Theatrical abilities and effects. He is TECHNICALLY SOUND when he does these & shows the Discipline of LGJ & PALGHAT RAGHU. I feel this is a HUGE DIFFERENCE THAT COUNTS MORE THAN AGE OF LISTENER ETC. VKV

I think what vasanthakokilam mentions still holds true as a generalization. Abhishek at 20 odd years is an exception - just like how LGJ was an exception....

[vgovindan]

There is a story of mullah who, after uttering morning prayers, ran after his voice to find out how far it reaches. No art form or artist can make any significant progress with this kind of approach. It is in our nature to excel ourselves till we reach the state of perfection. Unless we are ready for that experiment and abandon ourselves in the journey, we cannot find even excellence - leave alone perfection. That Perfection is trying to express through everyone of us. And, there is nothing like 'ultimate' in any field. If one kRshNa is possible, a million more kRshNas are waiting as potential - I am not talking about TMK. We are what we think we are. To be frank, I am a dissatisfied rasika who has not found that voice (or instrumental equivalent) which could make you swim. There are only glimpses of that beauty and only glimpse at that. Is it because of that kutcheri paddhati which places rasikas first? I am sorry. The artist comes first - and an artist is a rasika par excellence. He should be able to see the road ahead, rather than having a mullah approach. While he may, for his livelihood, entertain the audience, he should be able guide the audience as to what is higher - an elevating experience which he himself should have found in his journey. An art is not a profession. In a profession, one retires after completing one's daily chores and relaxes. But an art is a life consuming passion - and you are not out of it even for a moment - sort of yoga. Either you are united or not united - there is no midway.

yA niSA sarva bhUtAnAM tasyAM jAgarti saMyamI |
yasyAM jAgrati bhUtAni sA niSA paSyato munEH || Gita 2.69 ||

"That which is night to all beings, in that self-controlled man wakes.
That in which all beings wake, is night to the Self-seeing muni."
(Translation Swami Swarupananda)

That is true of a true artist - a nAda yOgi who has nAdAnubhava. Can we find one such?
That Great Artist whose expression is this Universe, never tires of experimentation - had it been so, the Universe would not be what it is - and who knows what it is going to be. humko to rAstA pyArA; manzil ka parvah nahin - and there is no final destination, as such.

[puru00047]

This is just my view, I could be wrong and there are always exceptions to the rule. You're welcome to replace the "we"s with "I"s, if you're offended.

Although we're in all readiness to conceive an "all-inclusive" carnatic music system/culture, I don't think our little egos will let us do it. So far we've been an elite clique of rasikas. Are we ready to hear every Tom, Dick and Harry in the street talk about kutcheris and keerthanas in the same breath they talk about "ilaya thalapathi's next" etc...
Deep down inside we know that carnatic music is one of the last few things "brahmin" about us brahmins. So we hold on to it like dear life.
I would go to the extent of saying that we have "brahminised" carnatic music in order to hold on to it like dear life.

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

Puru00047 You may be right on your basic premise--but even in those Brahmin-dominated days,there were brilliant artistes who commanded respect for their Vidwath--it was a sheer occupational accident that so many Brahmins took to music and not all of them succeeded despite their pedigree.
I strongly object to the term elitist--not that I take it as personal affront--but I have not seen a group of young forumites like Rajeshnat or mahavishnu(these are people I have met and and know I do not mean to exclude other young forumites) who respect tradition and still welcome innovation irrepective of caste or creed. In fact this is such a dead subject that I will not comment on it anymore.

[girish_a]

I keep hearing this theme often...Carnatic music is elitist, brahminist and so on. It may be that the majority of artists and followers are brahmins, but are they really stopping anybody else from taking up the art? Do brahmin teachers refuse to teach the music to people of other castes? Are the brahmins of today in any way obstructing the people of other castes or cultures from entering the field? Do brahmin artists refuse to accompany artists of other castes in concerts?

These may have been true some decades ago, but I don't think that's the case anymore. I am not aware of sabha-politics so I cannot comment on that, but outside the cloistered world of sabhas, I don't think it is difficult for anybody from any caste or creed to take up the art.

I also don't think that brahmins need to feel any sense of guilt over the current state of affairs - unless they have deliberately played an obstructionist role to prevent the music from spreading out of the community. The times are a-changing, and we need to move on.

[venkatakailasam]

please see his reply...

[venkatakailasam]

His finality is what impresses me most....A man of words and deeds..

" It is up to rasikas to decide whether they want to partner me in this path or not,
but I am not looking back"

Rasikas may have hundred views but he has one and only one and he is mentally strong enough to follow

it through..

[HarishankarK]

isn't it a beautiful coincidence - The real Meera (bai) was a Rajput pricess who became a Dasi (of Lord Krishna) whereas our MS was born as Dasi (kulam) but became Meerabai.
It is not important in what caste/community one is born but more important is how one lives, behaves and what one dedicate's ones life to and achieves.

My opinion is TMK has not wirtten anything bad of MS amma. He has mentioned her caste/community to make all understand that how remarkable she shone despite that.

[sureshvv]

It is not important in what caste/community one is born but more important is how one lives, behaves and what one dedicate's ones life to and achieves.

Correct!

But this won't sell any books

[vgovindan]

Some of the concerns raised by TMK have been addressed by Leela Samson - please see the link.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 693488.cms

Please also see her statement at the end -

we need to use the art forms for communication, to say something.

Well, that is the purpose of music and dance. As a dancer she understands the importance of communication and the tools for communication embedded in the dance art form. Music also comes in the same category, but how much emphasis is there for this aspect of CM?

[sankark]

we need to use the art forms for communication, to say something.

Well, that is the purpose of music and dance. As a dancer she understands the importance of communication and the tools for communication embedded in the dance art form. Music also comes in the same category, but how much emphasis is there for this aspect of CM?

Leaving TMK and Leela Samson and any others out, the question is - Why should art forms "communicate/say something" and not "just be"?

[vgovindan]

The Indian Democracy in its present form is a true example of 'just be'.

[vasanthakokilam]

Venkatakailasam wrote: Rasikas may have hundred views but he has one and only one and he is mentally strong enough to follow it through..

Very well put, venkatakailasam. That is always a struggle on how to not allow oneself be a victim of others' views and having a courage of one's own conviction. The wisdom is of course being self-aware enough to know when to learn from others and adapt to them and when to stand up for your own conviction. One of the toughest things in the world. The line between an idiot and a sage is quite thin.

That is why, even if I have a different point of view, I try (but not always successful) to give the benefit of doubt to those who are putting their neck out, acting on their strongly held convictions. That is not easy either since one can get frustrated at the hard/hotheadedness of that person since we do not agree with them. But 99% of us will wilt under such an attack of various view points especially on a subject for which there is no clear right or wrong.

But when it comes to someone being mean without being provoked, all the above principles are thrown out the window, I do not have patience for such people even if their unprovoked meanness has a basis in their strongly held opinion. That is where I draw the line

For example, A self-righteous Hindu music critic tweeted recently 'Given the metal instability of TMK, how did he even write such a big book. Did he employ a ghost writer?' (paraphrasing). What a mean <self-censored expletive> Putting up with such things from one's distractors can be so mentally draining.

[Rsachi]

TM Krishna says something* to me, always. And it is beautiful. I will continue to listen to him. With pleasure.

* through his music

[varsha]

Leaving TMK and Leela Samson and any others out

Leaving it is the difficult part . [-(
Couple of decades ago , during the years of depression , it was a common knowledge in social circles that the Discussions about the Fate of civilisation were a bit like needlework. Could always be taken up from where it was left last and continued until something else attracted the attention .
These subjects are a bit like that .
May look high brow to the uninitiated . But everyone who has experienced Art KNOWS that they want it as badly as they need oxygen for breathing .

Your exortation to just be is such a beautiful idea .

[rshankar]

But to everyone who appreciates art, the art is communicating something to them...art forms that are left to just be, IMO will become extinct....they have to make us feel something (I call it rasAnubhava, others call it communication), and in return, we communicate something back to the artist that informs, and ultimately changes the art. If this two way communication didn't exist, and art was just left to be, no one need worry about dilution of standards, or any change in standards over time, right?

[varsha]

art forms that are left to just be, IMO will become extinct.

To just be was not meant in the sense of not to influence or be influenced - but to be true to itself for its own sake .
Not as a means to something .
Much like what the author is trying to say here

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archi ... 1-s05.html

Like philosophy, art also has a profoundly communicative function. Through it people communicate to one another their feelings, their most intimate and infinitely varied and poignant thoughts. A common feature of art and philosophy is the wealth they both contain of cognitive, moral and social substance. Science is responsible to society for a true reflection of the world and no more. Its function is to predict events. On the basis of scientific discoveries one can build various technical devices, control production and social processes, cure the sick and educate the ignorant. The main responsibility of art to society is the formation of a view of the world, a true and large-scale assessment of events, a rational, reasoning orientation of man in the world around him, a true assessment of his own self. But why does art have this function? Because in its great productions it is not only consummately artistic but also profoundly philosophical.

[sankark]

varsha has already captured succinctly what I had in mind.

the art is communicating something to them

it is "their" minds, the sound isn't communicating any "meaning" by itself. What is pleasant/meaningful to me could be nArAsam/blather to some one else. e.g. I am not that fond of bilahari/mOhanam/hindOlam but there are people who are just in love with them. So the same Alapanai to me is just a prelude to something else better coming up whereas for them is the ultimate experience; it is in my/their mind not in bilahari/mOhanam/hindOlam per se as long as we all have a agreed upon definition of bilahari/mOhanam/hindOlam.

Art certainly can be a medium of communication and in that sense it is a tool to achieve an end rather than end; but Art shouldn't be limited to that.

The Indian Democracy in its present form is a true example of 'just be'.

"It is what it is" - to channel Chris Christie

[kvchellappa]

An art is outpouring of one mind. Another mind has to understand it. Is that not communication? What is 'just be' if my understanding is not flawed?

[sankark]

What I am saying is trying to assign meaning to all that is not necessary; just be enjoyed as is; "meaning" is in the subjects mind and not all subjects can have the same "meaning". One can enjoy all the musical effect of 3 kAlams in sri nAthAdhi guruguhO's pallavi (or) all the myriad sangathi's of cakkani without understanding CM/MMG/KHP/sanskrit/telugu.

[sankark]

Just to be clear, "conveying a meaning" is how I have interpreted "communication".

[varsha]

Dance like no one is watching, Love like you'll never be hurt, Sing like no one is listening, Live like it's heaven on earth.
Purkey, William

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_TZS__iaBo
Watch out for some communication between the Singer and his wife that starts three minutes before the movie ends

[vgovindan]

The song 'mOhana rAma' of tyAgarAja has the following lines -

'mOhamu nIpai monasiyunnadirA'. This means 'I have been captivated by you'. These lines and the whole kRti is in SRngAra bhAva. Can we visualise how a lady would tell her lover that she is captivated by him? It requires a frame of mind - a depth of feeling arising from the bottom of heart - conveyed in the appropriate tonality and facial contours. rAga and gamaka are the aids which create the atmosphere. This one kRti is sufficient to fill one concert with appropriate Alapana, for a person who knows how to create the atmosphere and sustain it.

Yes, it is always possible that we can create sangatis out of this line and keep singing ad nauseum without any expression - only pure aesthetics. That is what being done in kutcheri paddhati which is nothing more than thali meals in a hotel - all varieties and no lingering feeling of romance nor rumination. Well that is how CM concerts are structured. Who am I to change it - I am not even qualified in Music. But when you get to know the taste of love for its own sake - 'sankark' would call it 'just be' - you don't get satiated by soft drinks.

[Ponbhairavi]

Can the purpose of an artist in writing a book on his art and releasing it in public with media coverage be for not to communicate anything but only just be? or
Is it for the purpose of communicating that his views on his art are that his art is not for the purpose of communicating with anybody .

[kappi]

Nice discussion on art and the 'just-be' thing.
I don't quite agree to the fact that art should always be communicating something and hence echo sankark's point on 'just-be' (but not exactly for the reasons he has cited).

That is so only in the context of 'performance' art where the artist performs in front of an audience. But such a performance is only a secondary step. The primary step is when the artist himself/herself performs it for himself/herself for self-satisfaction, especially during practice. This is clearly evident after I have observed so many instances of artists playing/practising at home, that happened to be so different from their actual performances on the stage (in that their practise sessions are on extremely high levels than their stage performances). Even my Guru advises me to play a korvai sufficient number of times and experience and enjoy it fully by myself, before playing it for others--so there is no explicit communication in this process as there is only a one subject in the whole process, which is the artist himself. So art as 'communication' is relevant only with respect to 'performance' (including exhibiting one's paintings to the public). Even in visual arts there are many abstract paintings with no innate meaning at all and hence there is purely nothing to communicate. To discover a meaning in art is not anything like a standard thing the rasika should be doing.
@varsha: was a surprise to see an article on dialectical materialism, in this forum. Materialists would say that art is a form of abstract human labor (meaning self-expression).

[varsha]

art is a form of abstract human labor (meaning self-expression).

The distinction arising between an artist who starts with a semi - finished product ( like something being photographed for a photographer , a krithi being sung yet again for a cm vocalist )
....
and a Painter who - to normal eyes - starts with a blank canvas ( which is what I guess TMK seems to be searching for )

[kvchellappa]

Art in any form is representation of an idea (creative?) and the moment we talk of an idea, communication is elliptical to it. If I sing for myself, I communicate with myself, the most authentic communication. I derive the utmost satisfaction when I find the apt expression, something that is well-made, a result of sincere effort. In fact, the best of singers venture to add a piece in the performance after they are satisfied with it. I read about PMI asking ARI why he was not singing a piece that he was singing at home and ARI replied that he was yet to perfect it. PSN said that SSI would sing 100 times better outside the concert platform (inferably, he did not consider it fit to try it with the audience). Singers say you must yourself enjoy your singing, then only the audience will also be able to enjoy. In all this there is an undercurrent of communication. Teachers also tell the students to learn music without the idea of a performance. A greater number of people learn music than those that turn to be performers either as professionals or otherwise. I feel even in their case the element of communication is present unobtrusively.