MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

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CRama
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MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by CRama »

We had discussed this topic many times in the past. But I am disappointed that this continues to be a low key area in many sabhas. I will like to cite my experiences in Bharat Kalachar during two top concerts during the season.

It was a concert of Abhishek Raghuram. Before the curtains lifted, we could hear Abhishek's singing of some ragas, tuning of violin, mridangam etc. So we were naturally thinking that mike system is being tested and the balance is bring ensured. But once the concert started, there was constant pop from the artists on the stage to increase the volume, feed back is not coming and yells from the back benchers that violin is not audible. This went on for half an hour and Abhishek finished two songs. Then he announced- I am prepared to sing without mike. But I fear that the people at the back will not be able to hear. So left with no other course, the concert continued. But Abhishek, the man is, gave a stellar performance with Sattileni (Poorvikalyani), Chinthayamakanda (Bhairavi) and RTP in Mohanam. For Sattileni he gave a high energy neraval. For Chinthayama, he sang neraval at Mangalakara and swaras were rendered at Uthungakamaneeya (Atheetha eduppu).

On another day, it was the concert of Thrissur Brothers. The young artists are professional on stage and off stage and the concert started in a promising manner with a varnam and then a Namami Vighna vinayaka (Hamsadhwani). The brothers really wanted to give a solid concert as is their wont. But they were not getting the feedback, Mridangam was not getting the mike, and the left of the Mridangam was not reaching the audience. Frequent interruptions, gestures to increase, change of mike in between etc yielded no results. The brothers were visibly disturbed and without feedback they found it difficult to perform. So as the third song, they started a slokam- Vame bhoomisutha which was presented in a garland of ragas of Bhavayami Raghuramam which was followed by the magnum opus of ST. The audience immensely enjoyed it though. But in the normal course, nobody will take a slokam as the third song. Probably, they understood my feelings and they sang the next kriti- Sinamadayathe, Seetramurathe in Bahudari as if to appease me. I do not know the composer of the song. The funny thing was while there were two vocalists on the stage, they asked the violinist to play the ragam. After this song and a quick Pahimam Sree Rajarajeswari, they presented the first ragam of the concert- the only ragam of the concert- Karaharapriya very elaborately followed by Rama nee samana. The rendition was superb and as I have not heard this kriti in a live concert in the recent past I enjoyed it immensely. The neraval in paluku paluku definitely brought memories of Semmangudi's rendition - the school which they belong to.

When all these things were happening, I did not see any organiser in the vicinity to sort out the things.

On Jan 1st, I heard Ganesh Kumaresh in the same venue. They would have brought their own mike system- I do not know. But there were not much hiccups.

A similar instance has been reported in Suryaprakash concert in Cromepet also. I feel in many sabhas, the person operating the mike system is not skilled to handle the job. Many times a watch man or errand boy handles the mike system also. That is the reason for the chaotic situation like what is mentioned above. The sabhas take lot of efforts and spend money to organise the concerts. But the music will not be music to the ears if there is no good amplification system. Why they do not realise this and try to improve the position.

AC is also a menace in some of the halls. During the season period, the weather in Chennai was chill which did not necessitate a high AC. But many sabhas do not bother to control the temp. I found that AC in Rama Rao Kalyana Mantap in Habibulla Road quite intolerable and there was the need for a shawl as in Bangalore. Same was the case in the Mini Hall of Narada Gana sabha. In the morning slot of RTP concert of Ranganatha Sarma, I ran out of the hall once the thani started, as the cold was unbearable for me. Vani Mahal also.
Last edited by CRama on 07 Jan 2014, 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Nick H »

The same administrators who freeze us, using expensive electricity, probably cry about their costs and expenses. It really does not make sense.

At one NGS Mini-Hall concert, even the performer told me that she had felt far too cold on the stage.

I have mentioned elsewhere about my first (and now probably only) experience of P K Mahal. Their sound system almost destroyed the concert given by our forumite MV. They are continuing the "season" with some big names, including some of my favourites, but I am not going there to hear them.

rajeshnat
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by rajeshnat »

Nick H wrote: I have mentioned elsewhere about my first (and now probably only) experience of P K Mahal.
Nick
Is PK Mahal even worse than kalakruthi- chetpat ? How did you park your car there, you have graduated from Mylapore Fine Arts to Satri hall to Bharathiya Vidya bhavan to a chitrakulam mylapore MamA - a complete mylapore mama now wow. :-o ?

Rsachi
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Rsachi »

CRama,
You have made several careful observations. I am prepared to conduct a survey here on the rasikas' assessment of sabhas during the 2013 season.
Kindly give the the hall names and parameters, and we will collect responses on a five point scale.
Parameters
Mike
Seating
Ambience
AC
Washrooms
Catering
Parking
Other-define
Other-define

I heard more than once that MA was spectacular on all counts.

CRama
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by CRama »

Rsachi, That will be a good exercise. For that we should develop a matrix. Let each commentor give marks for each of the variables you have mentioned. Let the maximum be five and minimum zero. Pl give your views about it. Then we will start.

rajeshnat
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by rajeshnat »

Rsachi

Few more
Hygeine
Lighting
Staircase/Ramp

Mike itself i would divide into few more - as it is the most important and can be further granularized.

Mike Placement
Mike Volume
Volume Evenness across hall
Mike Man

rajeshnat
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by rajeshnat »

Sachi
Keep the parameters ready and may be start after 15 days this survey as lot of critical folks are travelling home , let them get settled. We can have it post pongal this survey.

Rsachi
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Rsachi »

Ok!
I do need the list of Halls (some Sabhas have multiple halls)
About parameters, my own view is not to split it too fine but give an open comment line.. Maybe not more than 10 parameters...

Nick H
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Nick H »

rajeshnat wrote:Is PK Mahal even worse than kalakruthi- chetpat ?
Ahh... memories of my first experience of hearing (or rather trying to hear) Sumithra's solo concert!

Only one experience with each hall to go by, but probably no, it is not worse. I suspect that the Chetpet hall's acoustics are just hopeless, but that judicious placing and control of speakers could make P K Mahal bearable.

Another hall (but again, just one experience) that I rate as probably acoustically impossible, is the one (Singeri Mutt?) opposite Mandaveli Station.
How did you park your car there
Chitrakulam tank used to be a good option for Mylapore parking generally, but with increase in vehicle density one now has to go further afield. I parked opposite the bottom end of Mosque St and walked.

Chennaites are manic about door-to-door delivery. I find that, if one is actually prepared to walk a couple of hundred metres, parking can be easy. Thus, rather than getting stuck in the NGS carpark, or embroiled with MA valet parking, CIT colony is an excellent option for both.
you have graduated from Mylapore Fine Arts to Satri hall to Bharathiya Vidya bhavan to a chitrakulam mylapore MamA - a complete mylapore mama now wow. :-o ?
Actually, I think that Raga Sudha Hall and Rana Seethai hall were my first ever experiences of Chennai music (and cockroaches, at the latter) back in my befuddled-tourist first-visit days, and that I graduated to BVB --- and so on.

One thing, though. Commentators like to mention the MMMs --- and I had recently reflected that I had not seen a single Mylapore Mami actual wearing a Madisar for the whole season. PK Mahal more than made up for that. But they seemed to be coming for the god, rather than the music.

CRama
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by CRama »

If we include too many minute parameters, the response will be poor and may not be correct also. That has to be taken into account. Hence we can have mike system as one variable.
We can take Music Academy as the benchmark - i.e, 5 points for each parameter and evaluate the other sabhas accordingly.

rajeshnat
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by rajeshnat »

Nick
You already have told your parking lot that is the bottom end of mosque street in the internet . Someone will grab it and you are going to walk from santhome the other end of mylapore - you are going to be more and more slimmer.

I am just curious we are talking about 3 halls here - kalakruthi , pk mahal and sringeri temple . I have visited pk mahal but not for a concert . We understand kalakruthi is too less chairs with two storied booming mikes in the front . No way we can go back .

It is ok for sringeri mutt , there you have an option you can go back as the hall is big .Bottom line more than high quality speakers it is the distribution of speakers that matters more- that is why PK mahal is better than kalakruthi . Also a certain degree of open air helps ,To that extent sabhas like chromepet have a lot of open air the sound escapes .

rajeshnat
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by rajeshnat »

Sachi
If you ask me mike /sound is the most important kind of getting granular data there helps (may be atleast two not all four i put on mike). Just putting mike is too big a jumble. You can decide, choice is yours .

Let me put a list of 10 sabhas that hold consistently for many years (restricted to 10).I am assuming critical count of rasikas would have attended.

Music Academy
NGS
NGS-Mini
Parthasarathy
Mylapore Fine Art
Brahma gana sabha
Ragasudha
SKGS
Vanimahal
Bharat kalachar

Nick H
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Nick H »

Even though (in my limited experience this year) Hare Krishna volumes were too high, it is a venue with three sides open, and this can actually work very well. It is actually better for the sound to escape than for it to be bounced around. Given that something reasonable is coming out of the speakers, it is those reflections that blur the bass and harshen the treble.

So far as the speakers are concerned, I think we need to break through the Ahuja barrier, but that is purely a matter of finance.

rajeshnat
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by rajeshnat »

Nick H wrote:
So far as the speakers are concerned, I think we need to break through the Ahuja barrier, but that is purely a matter of finance.
What is ahuja barrier, I dont get it?

Nick H
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Nick H »

It is the make of most of the speakers that we see in these places.

As an occasional would-be audiophile, I tend to register useless information such as the labels on audio equipment <Blush>

The Music Academy has gone with Bose. Word on the street is that, whereas Bose in the home is a matter of marketing fluff rather than sound quality, their pro-audio stuff is much better than their domestic ranges. Those in the know tell me that, still, there is much better to be had --- but, at the MA (at least sitting towards the front) we can hear the difference those speakers make. I have to admit, though, that I have no idea what percentage is the hall design. How was it before the latest refurbish?

Oh, and as an occasional would-be pedant... mic is short for microphone; mike is short for Michael ;)

rajeshnat
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by rajeshnat »

Nick
One of the mistakes each of the hall is doing is they over estimate the crowd count even assuming for the highest crowd pullers .They source these two sets of speakers and keep it one above the other and have 60 to 80% hall empty(depending on the profile of artist) , but those who come are getting assaulted in the ears.

This kalakruthi sabha when it was in egmore near dasaprakash had a bigger hall then , but the speakers were only one deck . Courtesy arusuvai natarajan - the patron . After kalakruthi moved to chetpet some time before 4 or 5 years back they got another additional a deck of spekers they stacked one over the other and the lady patron (Mrs Rajamma)there is still thinking the sound has improved.

CRama
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by CRama »

We can have more no of sabhas for evaluation. But the parameters should not be unwieldy. I will add German Hall, Karnataka Sangha and Mudhra (where I have to comment something)

Nick H
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Re: MIKE SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Nick H »

The toilet[s] (This must be the only place where guys have to walk through the guyess area) at Sastri Hall must have been cleaned for December. Improvement from disgusting to horrible. About the only place I know where I feel less clean after washing my hands.

CRama
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by CRama »

Corrected the heading as MIc instead of Mike.

Nick H
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Nick H »

Thank you CRama! A point, as I said, of pure pedantry with me :)

Rsachi
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Rsachi »

Image

Nick H
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Nick H »

Just goes to show that you can't trust the internet! lol.

Yes, I accept that it is now generally accepted, but it never looks right to me. No big deal. I didn't really expect CRama to change the thread!

bharathi
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by bharathi »

Please include Kalarasana, Chinmaya Mission venue.. they ruined one great concert for me

samarasaa
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by samarasaa »

Bala Mandir German Hall for IFAS, Nanganallur Anjaneyar Temple can be added as venues with singularly bad mike systems.

Agreed with CRama on Bharat Kalachar - the mike setup exercise at the Abhishek concert was irritating - took 50 minutes, 2 changes of the mikes etc. A group of us actually thought the mike system had settled for the audience with the second piece in Hamsadhwani but looked like the artists could not hear anything! Mikes were much better for the dance recitals of Rama Vaidyanthan and Srinidhi Chidambaram but equally bad for the morning free concerts..

Smt YGP was in the first row so hopefully she has taken it as an improvement area.

Rsachi
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Rsachi »

CRama, Rajesh,
I have created this survey: http://bit.ly/MargazhiHalls
Before I launch it, please let me have your comments.
Have I covered all the sabha halls? Have I covered the issues? Have I given the room (see last 3 comment lines) for people to express themselves?
Thanks

rajeshnat
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by rajeshnat »

Rsachi
Kalarasana is held in chinmaya heritage center. You have mentioned chinmaya mission both are same . Perhaps you can replace that with Chennai Cultural Academy. Rename German hall as Indian Fine Arts-German hall.


One parameter called Parking is a parameter where we can do nothing about it , those who have have it have it .Those who dont have cannot do anything about it . Our feedback or even paying 100 crores cannot help sabha like BVB. I was thinking you adding Mike Technician assistance as another parameter . Also rename hygiene as hall hygiene . Also you can indicate if any folks have not visited any of the sabhas they can leave it blank .

I am little worried if people will fill 17 sabhas data , I will surely do it.

Rsachi
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Rsachi »

Ok!

Rsachi
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Rsachi »

Please take care to answer the survey here :
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22772
Last edited by Rsachi on 09 Jan 2014, 05:57, edited 1 time in total.

S.NAGESWARAN
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by S.NAGESWARAN »

After the reports about the drum beating by all senior mrudangists from many of the Rasikas in our forum,I have written an article about the the cause and remedies for this problem and listen to the pleasant and optimum level of music and trying to bring a smile from the mrudangists and the Rasikas.

This article was sent to the Hindu paper where I knew some persons for the publishing in the paper.
The article was sent to the Hindu on 06.01.2014. to be published on 10th January 2014 in the Friday music & reviews supplement.

My friend from the Hindu requested me to post this article in our website for now.

The December music season at Chennai is over now.
Rasikas from all over the world have come down to Chennai and enjoyed the breakfast and food in the canteens of various sabhas, chat with old friends over a cup of coffee and also enjoyed music from the promising youngsters and senior vidwans.

One of the disturbing factors in some of the concerts is about the excess volume from the mrudangam. It is usual that after two or three songs, some members from the audience standup and request to reduce the volume from the mrudangam which usually irritate the mrudangists.

The general scenario in any concert is;

1.The vocal and accompanists in the dais listen to the volume level of individual artists via the feedback monitor speakers. With the help of the mike man, optimum level of the individual mike is set and then only the concert starts.The noise level in the dais would be less and ideal if only the traditional thampura is used for the basic sruthi.
However, the present trend is to have an electronic thampura and many more electronic sruthis from I pads, mobile phones etc in addition to the traditional thampura. The effect is that the overhaul volume level is high in the dias.With this high level of volume, the artists[vocal and instrumentalists] have naturally to increase the feedback monitor volume levels so that they can listen to their playing levels.
2.The ideal situation would be to have two separate amplifiers [one for the feedback speakers and one for the amplification of the volume for the speakers in the hall] for the audience to listen. If this arrangement is available, the mike man can set the volume in both the speakers separately to the optimum levels so that there won’t be any complaints from the audience for excess volume.
However, in many sabhas, there is only one amplifier for the feedback monitors and for the hall speakers.

3.The second factor is that the mike men in many sabhas are not technically sound. Out of their long Years of service they do the job as they know.
4.In order to correct the same, the sabhas should engage sound engineers and see that proper balance of the sound from all the mikes are fed to the feedback monitors and the main hall speakers.
5. The sound engineer should go round the hall and hear one or two songs from various speakers in the hall and do a final volume adjustments and verify that the vocal and all instruments are heard with optimum volume levels and do the final adjustments of the sound in the amplifier.

The artist Sri Shashank, after completing one song, will ask the audience about the optimum volume level from all the instruments are heard properly and do any corrections with the help of the mike man and then only continue the concert.

If all the main artists follow this practice, overhaul enjoyment of listening to the concerts by Rasikas will be achieved.

S.NAGESWARAN.
06.01.2014.

Rsachi
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Rsachi »

Dear Mr Nageswaran,
An excellent article! So these tambura-noise making gadgets on stage are the culprits! Apart from poor feedback monitor settings (not reflecting loudness in the halls).

I think rasikas.org, within my own memory, have had very useful exchanges in this regard:

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... t=Engineer
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... it=setting
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... t=Mic+mess

VijayR
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by VijayR »

S.NAGESWARAN wrote: 2.The ideal situation would be to have two separate amplifiers [one for the feedback speakers and one for the amplification of the volume for the speakers in the hall] for the audience to listen. If this arrangement is available, the mike man can set the volume in both the speakers separately to the optimum levels so that there won’t be any complaints from the audience for excess volume.
However, in many sabhas, there is only one amplifier for the feedback monitors and for the hall speakers.
Sri. Nageswaran, I am not sure if the above statement is accurate. It is not just about two amplifiers. The audio mixer should support what is called an "auxiliary" or "monitor" mix, in addition to the "main" mix that goes to the floor speakers. For simplicity, think of a mix as a joint output of all the instruments where one can independently set the volume of individual instruments. So, if a particular instrument cannot be heard on the monitor, one can adjust the volume of that instrument alone in the monitor mix. This is different from having two amplifiers, which only provides for overall volume control (i.e., together for all instruments) on the monitor and the floor speakers.

My observations have been just the opposite. In every sabha that I have seen (being somewhat of an audiophile, I have observed the mixer in about 15 sabhas, including all the big ones), the mixer does indeed support multiple mixes (a main and one or more auxiliary mixes). Perhaps we have observed completely different sabhas.

The artists should have complete control over what comes out of the monitor mix (i.e., what they hear on the monitors). The levels on the "main mix" to the floor speakers should largely be independent of the artists and decided only by the audio technician after listening from different locations in the hall and taking into account audience feedback.

Also, the floor speakers (which are more powerful) influence what the artists hear, but the monitor usually does not affect the listening experience in the audience. Therefore, the levels for the floor speakers should be set first and then the monitors should be set so that the artists can get more accurate aural feedback.

Rsachi
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Rsachi »

VijayR
I agree.
There was even a diagram and step by step guide in the quoted threads.
I think the real issue is lack of calibration between monitors and floor speakers.

ramanathan
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by ramanathan »

Please read the cover story in this issue of my magazine The ARTery, written by someone who actually does audio work for a major Carnatic music festival. It is very enlightening and helps us rasikas go beyond our very amateurish understanding of concert acoustics.

rajeshnat
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by rajeshnat »

Ramanathan,
Thank you i just loved the writeup of V Shankar sundaram , is he the son of cleveland Shri V V Sundaram .

Lovely. I like the article as it gives some insights into error correction than just cribbing on error detection. I am not sure how much of all that he has written is pragmatically feasible in a majority of sabhas .

Curious possibly V Shankar sundaram can himself answer this .

1. Terms like Console EQ is more important than tonal shaping is perfect . But can we have small low price gadgets(like a small sugar or a bp meter) that can measure at different points to measure all these quick scientifics so that it is the facts that are pointed out than rather getting jacked up or jacked down by musicians which have their personal whims and fancy.

2. I was thinking to an extent this high fidelity low proxmity mikes of today is also a thief , TO an extent I think the days where those yesteryear KONDAI mikes used by vocalist and violinist was just fine (I am not sure how they are called i am calling them KONDAI Mikes). The mrudangam did not have mike . IF we ever revert to those KONDAI mikes for only two of them , it will make it the best. The KONDAI mike is shown below in the url (pay attention to mmi-lgj-psp)

https://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&s ... B432%3B323

SrinathK
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by SrinathK »

Very insightful article. One other thing is that there's the problem of the technician using (probably) the same sound level for a mini hall as he would do for much larger main halls, not realizing how much louder it really sounds in much smaller spaces (again the mridangam mike is the boss). This is after quite a few experiences in smaller halls. Also speaking of those close in mics, they pretty much don't seem to register anything unless you are close to swallowing them. Keep them a foot away and they act as though they aren't there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1dBg__wsuo

Superb performance of the Mendelssohn aside, check out the mic placements, especially the soloist at 3:19. How do they do it?

Nick H
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by Nick H »

not realizing how much louder it really sounds
The guy only has to listen! That's his job. But they don't bother.

VijayR
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by VijayR »

ramanathan wrote:Please read the cover story in this issue of my magazine The ARTery, written by someone who actually does audio work for a major Carnatic music festival. It is very enlightening and helps us rasikas go beyond our very amateurish understanding of concert acoustics.
Anyone who has heard the music at the Cleveland aradhana (even on webcast) can readily attest to Shankar's skill at managing audio. All this, with a wireless microphone system, which brings in a whole additional set of issues (as Ramanathan will, I'm sure, agree). Loved the article… the anecdotes were completely hilarious.
ramanathan wrote:It is very enlightening and helps us rasikas go beyond our very amateurish understanding of concert acoustics.
Hmmmm. /:) :D

mohan
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Re: MIC SYSTEM AND AC IN MUSIC HALLS

Post by mohan »

I hate it when the artist asks the audience if the sound is ok or not. One person will say it is too loud while another will say it is too low? This just leads to more confusion. The answer lies in a good sound system, proper sound checks and a competent audio technician.

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