Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Jan 2014, 09:32

If what Ravikiran calls 'tonal decay' is same as reverberation arising from a note, then I feel, it is not at all decay but what is called 'izhaivu' in Tamil - the seamless transition from one note to another. Such izhaivu is what someone called Chitti Babu's playing of Vina as 'love story'. Nature is made up like that - we do not know where, in the spectrum of light, one colour changes to another; where river water becomes sea water; where lung-sacs convey oxygen to blood vessels and blood vessels convey oxygen to cells. Our perception is also seamless. This seamless note production is what differentiates one artist from another. In regard to vocal music, IMHO this is what people call 'brigA' which makes a singer's voice rich in tonal quality which leads to seamless note production. This is the purpose of 'gamaka'. My ten cents.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Jan 2014, 11:42

vgovindan wrote:If what Ravikiran calls 'tonal decay' is same as reverberation ...

No, decay is decay. Although it is a technical term, it is something we hear so often it is easy to understand.

Think about the striking of a bell. What that happens from that moment of strike*, and the sound that comes from it, is decay, as the sound fades away to the point where it is beyond our hearing.

reverberation, on the other hand, is something that happens in the environment in which the sound is made. It is what makes our voices sound good in a bathroom, but it is also what makes music sound horrible in a bigger hall with nothing but hard walls, floor, ceiling, all bouncing the sound around. It is also, of course, an effect --- when the same thing is done electronically to make a flat sound richer and multi-dimensional. Sadly, often over-done!

*ok, I left out the middle bit: the period during which the sound is sustained, or constant. Audio engineers, and the more technical musicians, will be able to visualise this as a graph. I don't have that experience, but I imagine that, for plucked or struck instruments, the sustain period is rather short.

And I also left out the attack ... the period during which the sound rises from silence to peak.

But hey... I was only trying to explain decay

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 06 Jan 2014, 16:18

Nick H wrote:but I imagine that, for plucked or struck instruments, the sustain period is rather short.

It's not that simple, I believe. This is a huge subject. So just some quick thoughts, given that all my chores have caught up with me thanks to year end slacking off

:

The whole challenge in acoustic plucked lute design is optimizing between attack volume, sustain length, brightness, etc...For clarity let me say that it is meaningful to talk about "sustain" only in the case of plucked string instruments...obviously for bowed string instruments or wind instruments the "sustain" is as long as one can "sustain" bowing or blowing in one direction !

For all lutes in general, the thicker the walls of the resonator, the longer the sustain, but this comes at the price of strike volume and subsequent volume. The extreme case in maximizing sustain is an electric guitar (ditto electric mandolin played by Srinivas) where the "resonator" has reached the "limiting case" of a being solid block of wood or other material. In this case, the sustain is indeed very very long but the sound is barely audible in the unamplified state. Also, all the ensemble of overtones, not merely of the string plucked (or struck the case of the piano or santoor), but the rest of the strings reverberating in the chamber, which we call the "rich natural tone" is absent. So the compromise is to have an acoustic instrument with a natural tone and then use a little amplification to boost the sustain. This is the rationale for amplification of vinas, chitravinas, etc.

If I have time I'll write about the sitar (and Miraj tambura)...there's so much to say about it because it's such a good optimization between the various characteristics mentioned earlier.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 06 Jan 2014, 16:23

Look forward, Uday!

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 07 Jan 2014, 21:48

Uday wrote:
For all lutes in general, the thicker the walls of the resonator, the longer the sustain, but this comes at the price of strike volume and subsequent volume

Uday, Sustain - at least partially - also has to do with the quality and thickness of the string, the pitch it is tuned to, the quality of the bridge etc, isn't it? A big factor in tanpura and sympathetic resonance strings is the 'jeeva/jeevali' which can be a thread (in S Indian instruments) or an inbuilt spot in the bridge (in N Indian instruments).

Rsachi wrote:

Fretless sliding vs frets for easy and accurate note production, multiple strings, sympathetic strings, cross-bowing, different resonators, amplification mikes, all modify the musical expression of the veena and act as enablers for its musicality in the hands of the musician, building on its basic sound-producing structure of a plucked string. Ravikiran, am I going in the right direction, please?

In general you are right, sir except that plucking and bowing are two entirely different techniques. Just a recap briefly on string instrument history, the harp-type of instruments preceded slide types, which then developed into fretted and so forth. Of these, harp has most limitations in terms of micro-tones as well as oscillations and other gamakas, which weeded them out of the mainstream even centuries ago. Slide has most scope in terms of left-hand subtleties but also poses maximum challenge to master which is what led to 'fixing' notes by way of frets but in effect, compromising on micro-tonal fidelity. But the advantages outweighed the disadvantages for 99% of practitioners, which is why fretted veena became a popular option and continues to remain as one even today. The chitravina made a come back after centuries through the efforts of artistes like Sakha Rama Rao (guru of Shri Semmangudi and my grandfather, Gotuvadyam Narayana Iyengar) and others only about a 150 years back.

As for bowed instruments, even though Indians lay claim to Ravanastram as an ancient bowed instrument, their dominance as a category started only after Baluswami Dikshitar got enamoured with the violin. While its versatility has made it quite popular on multiple fronts, its subtleties will hopefully be explored much more in the near future...

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 08 Jan 2014, 07:28

Indeed Raviji! As you so well know, I left out so many details ...this subject is so huge and endless.

To think back to basics, there are many things involved in creating the sound of a plucked string:

1) The vibrating string (and the player/plucker)
2) The coupling between the vibrating strings and the resonator
3) The resonator itself
4) Miscellaneous things

I completely left out all but #3 above. So here’s an extremely brief, informal and loose discussion of the others:

Vibrating string

As regards the vibrating string, the more energy it generates, the longer the sustain, other things being equal. Certainly the art of plucking contributes something. When it is plucked, it generates many of the modes (loosely lower order harmonics) with varying amplitudes. In physical terms, the energy of the vibrating string is:

1) Directly proportional to the tension
More taut the string, the longer the sustain, other things being equal

2) Directly proportional to the length
Longer the string, the longer the sustain, other things being equal. One might have noticed Meeraj tamburas are very long.

3) Directly proportional to the linear density (density or mass per unit length) of the strings
To an extent, thick strings have more energy than thin strings, other things being equal but internal damping can confound this assumption (?). Steel guitar strings have more energy than nylon guitar strings of the same guauge, other things being equal.

As regards, the jiva, the uniquely Indian invention and incomparably subtle in its usefulness, it requires a separate section. I will try to think about it some more and make some speculations.

The coupling between the vibrating strings and the resonator

This is very complex. Overall, the mechanical “impedance” of the strings, bridge and the soundboard determine how well the energy is transferred from string to soundboard. I’ll have to think some more and/or refer to canned material

.

The resonator

Something was said about this earlier.

Miscellaneous things

The inherent internal damping of the vibrating string is different for different harmonics. This is very important and determines the tone. Decay of some harmonics is faster than others. This is why steel strings have a brighter tone than nylon strings although both “start” more or less at the same place

. Also, there’s damping due to air under certain conditions, thermal characteristics of the strings, the homogeneity of it, and on and on. One can spend a lifetime researching this scientifically and empirically and still not get very far

.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 08 Jan 2014, 07:41

UDAY, To lighten the discussions a bit, this part of string & resonator theory, can it be part of the T.O.E.- Theory of EVERYTHING- which can UNIFY all the facets of Physics thru' String Theory to explain what happened before the Big Bang?...As I wrote before I was UNABLE to model even a measly Laser Resonator properly....
GOOD LUCK IN THE PITTSBURGH SUMMIT.....VKV

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 08 Jan 2014, 07:50

VKV -
You are almost there . No wonder you are a man of Science :ymapplause:
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... y-printers

BAE Systems confirmed on Monday that some of the metal components used to build the metal bird on the sky were simple print outs using a 3D technology.
.........................
In the UK, the technology had been restricted largely to design and technology classes but that there was "considerable potential for them to be used" for example to enable links to be made between mathematics, design and physics in a similar way to, for example, 'sound' enabling links between music, physics (wave properties), biology (hearing) and engineering (concert hall design)" has now been realised in UK.
.............

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 08 Jan 2014, 10:13

Dear Varshaji,
Though irrelevent here let me give two tangential examples: 1) GE (still has the patent) was & is capable of producing the VUMMIDI or Thangamaligai Dimonds for 50 cents ( as part of STAR WARS PROJECT) as these diamonds women (&some men) use are called Dirty Diamonds for scientific work. DEBEERS persuaded Ronald Reagan to not let it happen as the world economy will collapse. 2) In the sixties when MOOG Synthesiser was being researched on at Bell Labs ONE of the side projects was to find out if given say the first four bars of a compostion by Bach or Beethoven whether the rest of the composition could be predicted. It turned in MOST instances it could be!....
Let me stop by observing the 3-D Printer stuff is TRULY DANGEROUS & ITS IMPLICATIONS ARE HORRENDOUS.... As they say: Kali(yugam) MUTHIPOCHU & I am looking at any one riding a white horse with suspicion. Only do not know whether the Avatharam will take place in India or elsewhere...VKV

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 08 Jan 2014, 11:37

If anyone is seriously interested in traditional vina construction and can't observe an instrument maker themselves, there is a richly documented book entitled

Lautenbau in Südindien: M. Palaniappan Achari und Seine Arbeit (Lute Making in South India: M. Palaniappan and His Work) by Norbert Beyer

It is replete with illustrations, photographs, and an accompanying CDROM that contains additional hundreds of photos. Norbert Beyer spent several months in Tiruchi as Palaniappan Achari's apprentice in 1993 to produce this book.

-Srini.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 08 Jan 2014, 12:12

CACM,
I have spent 23+ years at GE and corroborate your point about artificial diamonds.

About MOOG predicting the composition, how do you like Mozart's 12 variations of the Twinkle Twinkle Little Star...

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 08 Jan 2014, 12:28

Much of the "gayaki" efforts on the vina, or any other instrument, are post electronic amplification.

Uday, I think this observation is a little hasty.

Whether on the vina or flute or violin, the urge to produce a vocal effect -- increasingly so in the 20th century -- was and is not contingent on electronic amplification, although it was resorted to heavily by artistes such as Balachander for a public setting.

Rather, I believe it was based on a deep urge -- or serious anxiety if you will -- to reproduce the increasingly vocal repertoire of Carnatic music as accurately as possible.

I will give you an illustration -- when L.Ramki first introduced me to Kalpagam mami's music in 1991 via a cassette, I found a rare Dikshitar kriti in Dhanyasi "mangala devatayA" produced with such astounding fidelity to the lyrics that I just had too look at the book to follow along -- in fact, it was only much later that I even heard a vocal rendition of this kriti. Kalpagam mami certainly didn't care much for electronic amplification and I remember she was distinctly uncomfortable the first time she played with a contact mike in the 2000s when she was well into her 80s.

Whether it was Tiruppamburam Swaminatha Pillai (who apparently was one of the first to try and place the flute in a vocal style with some amount of success) or the great Mali, or Ramani, or Shashank (whose vocal effect is brilliant when he plays the traditional kritis), or Lalgudi on the violin (listen for example to his articulation of "dukkha dhvamsInIm" in Kamalambam Bhajare), or Kalpagam mami, Balachander and others on the veena, the approach seems to have called for a serious understanding of the dynamics of their chosen instrument and to marshall it towards producing as "gayaki" an ang as possible.

On a lighter note, Kalpagam mami, who I used to pester with questions about her intricate style of the veena, used to demonstrate "enta nErcina" for me in a particular style that she dubbed "OyAma aDiccAn, nOgAma azhuthAn" -- a rapidly flitting style that generated a lot of sound but conveyed little expression !

-Srini.

Ps: I agree that Vilayat Khan's sitar does the same to you in Hindustani music. Of course, the joke there is that the late Ravishankar used to get a trifle annoyed whenever people used to ask him about gayaki ang and asked whether that meant others were playing bhains kA ang

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jan 2014, 13:33

Diamond Labs -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuu3yngw3JQ

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 08 Jan 2014, 13:42

In general, there is a penchant to celebrate the easy continuity, fluidity in instrumental music be it on the violin or flute or chitravina... more than it is worth !

Speaking for myself, I am glad that I was disabused of this to a large extent early in my listening career by my good friend Sowrirajan, when I used to spend hours in the hostel listening to him sing, play the flute and the vina and differentiate each on its own merits.

He patiently instructed me to pay attention to the full-rounded quality and "syllabic attack" that was possible on the vina as opposed to a gooey continuity and how it enhanced musical expression. Of course, my doubts persisted regarding the quick decay of sound that has been alluded to.

Balachander's concerts at that time were overwhelming -- after a year or so of not listening to "kshira sAgara s'ayana" and "mInAkShi mE mudam dehi" vocally, when he played both kritis at the outset at a Calcutta Fine Arts concert held in Shastri Hall in 1982 or so, it was an absolutely shattering experience for me -- but I could not claim to any great understanding of his technique back then... and as mentioned here, the sophisticated amplification for those times that he used to deploy were all too plainly visible... so one could perhaps attribute his convincing vocalism to the high-tech gadgetry to some extent (of course, mistakenly).

Back to decay, it is precisely the overcoming of decay through a very sophisticated left-hand technique (where the veTTu/cut in the fingers is used gently to lift the string in lieu of the right hand pluck) that has been the hallmark of all great vainikas.

-Srini.

ps: I only read about the left-hand technique first in the books of Rangaramanuja Iyengar while describing Dhanammal's style -- of course, in his book he uses it as a beating stick over other vainikas since he is overwhelmingly interested in her style only. Nevertheless, it was an absolute pleasure hearing Prof.Vijayakrishnan in the early 1990s in Michigan and hear him patiently deconstruct various elements of Dhanammal's vina technique and style. If you ever get a chance to listen to him -- he is based in Hyderabad -- please do not miss out !

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 08 Jan 2014, 15:36

srini_pichumani wrote:I found a rare Dikshitar kriti in Dhanyasi "mangala devatayA" produced with such astounding fidelity to the lyrics that I just had too look at the book to follow along -- in fact, it was only much later that I even heard a vocal rendition of this kriti. Kalpagam mami certainly didn't care much for electronic amplification and I remember she was distinctly uncomfortable the first time she played with a contact mike in the 2000s when she was well into her 80s.

Wait Srini, let me get this straight:

ONE person named Srini Pichumani, admittedly a gnyaansthan but nevertheless human and given to prejudices and biases, listened ONE kriti in ONE raga by ONE composer (who kritis are obviously readily reprodicible on the veena because that's the way his thinking was oriented) by ONE vainika and therefore "gAyaki style", whatever it means, is completely possible on the veena without electronic amplification, for the entire repertoire of Karnatic music including all ragas, composers and composition types (including Tyagaraja kritis, padams, javalis, etc).

Speaking for myself, I believe that practically all instruments except the violin and the chitravina probably alter sangatis of some different subset of rAgas/kritis to suit their particular instrument. This is not to say that the altered sangatis are not gAyaki, they may be, i.e., they may sound good when sung the way they are played. However, the sangati may not be the most optimal one produced by a wide and diverse class of vocalists who have no instrumental biases.

Speaking for myself again, one has to experience the chitravina at close quarters, preferably play a little on it, with that kind of intense attention to shruti fidelity that it forcibly imposes on the player, in order to experience the minutiae of its "vocal" dynamics. It is in a league of its own. If you claim that it offers "easy continuity, fluidity, gooey, etc" that's serious nonsense that needs expedite disabusing. All the more hard as we get older

. Combined with pluck, modulation, "potthal", etc... the chitravina is truly a magnificent and complete instrument of Carnatic musical expression. I will be glad to demonstrate it to you (obviously there are people who can do it infinitely better!), like your friend Sowrirajan from college. I will call you when I'm stateside...the last time I called you and told you that I had "invented" an entirely new musical instrument that can explore vocal dynamics really well, your response was that T N Rajarathinam Pillai had also done something similar by adding some wax to the seevali so the shuddha madhyamam gets better on the nagasvaram. By those standards, I've been inventing a new "seevali wax" every week of the last few years. So hopefully I can get your attention next time

.

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 08 Jan 2014, 16:22

Come now, Uday, aren't we getting a little crabby ? Over 40, certain gunams creep in and all that !

I did hear your experiments but have decided to a well-left for now, since it is w-i-p

Sorry couldn't call.

And before your complain even louder, don't forget my appreciation of your Anandabhairavi -- articulation and all that -- on a real flute

-Srini.

ps: You got the TNR stuff all wrong... but since I am running really scared now, we will have to save the details for another day.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 08 Jan 2014, 21:04

Srini,
Jayanthi plays a lot of phrases using only her left hand without any right hand plucking, she demoed it and explained it in her Parivadhini lecdem.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 08 Jan 2014, 22:27

Rsachi wrote:CACM,
I have spent 23+ years at GE and corroborate your point about artificial diamonds.

About MOOG predicting the composition, how do you like Mozart's 12 variations of the Twinkle Twinkle Little Star...

Dear RSachi,
LIKE the Trinity of Carnatic Music the equivalent in Western Music BACH, BEETHIOVEN, & MOZART are unmatched! I am sure when you visited the place where Bach performed the feeling was very similar to visiting Thiruvaiyaru......MOZART of course is more colourful! VKV

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 08 Jan 2014, 22:34

Dear srini_pichumani, EXCELLENT & THOUGHT PROVOKING OBSERVATIONS. AS USUAL whenever Ravi Kiran gets involved the STANDARDS GO UP! With a KNOWLEDGEABLE down to earth INVENTOR like UDAY also participates I feel quit intimidated to EXPOSE MY LEVELS OF IGNORANCE. Thanks to RSachi for starting this thread. VKV :ymapplause:

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 09 Jan 2014, 11:20

@uday shankar On a side note, I also remember reading a question in the paper about why a violin sounds so much louder than a veena and it's left me with a lot of questions. Apart from the obvious differences between continuous bowing and the exponential decay of plucked sound, there's a lot of detail on this page regarding the coupling of the strings to the front and back plates via the bridge, the bass bar and the sound post. The resonance inside the air cavity is there, but it is the vibration of the plates itself that generates sufficient power in the sound waves -- the strings themselves would be barely audible without the body. How efficient would be this coupling as compared to the one on a veena?

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/violintro.html

Hundreds more can be googled.

Speaking of the jivari -- There is also something called projection of tone over a long distance and here is an interesting experience : When we were rehearsing for the Thyagaraja aradhana program at IITM, at home the combined volume of the singers and mridangam had drowned out the tanpuras. But guess which was the first sound you heard from outside as you approached the gate? Acoustic perception changes dramatically with distance. The tanpura's rich and continuously varying spectrum allows it to project to a surprisingly large distance (and even through walls) even though it need not sound loud at close quarters. The harmonic resonance allows the sound to maintain it's amplitude for much longer than an ordinary plucked string. The jivari essentially achieves the original purpose of a natural vibrato with a truly unparalleled ability to modulate the harmonic spectrum of the string.

The second question then is -- how would the veena and chitraveena sound from several feet away with basically no fans or mechanical equipment (which REALLY ruin the projection) as opposed to close quarters with no microphone ? And about acoustics, in Hindustani dhrupad music, the court musicians had special acoustic chambers built specifically to project the sound of the veena or tanpura and if you come across that youtube video on dhrupad, you should hear the veena and tanpuras in one such recording.

And another thing about contact mikes -- I was horrified by the tone change my acoustic violin when I put one on the top plate. It is a huge vibration dampener and turned the instrument nasal. Ever since then if I use it, I have always fitted the contact on the scroll. Not having played the veena, I do not know if a contact mic has a similar effect on it.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 09 Jan 2014, 11:36

CACM and other friends,
Glad to share this.
Mozart played the famous Twinkle Twinkle Little Star ( originally a French tune) in 12 variations!
Here is someone playing that composition:
http://youtu.be/G0mnPCi5lS8

Enjoy!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Jan 2014, 11:45

sound diminishes as it passes through the air. It is mathematical, and I don't think it is dependent on the source of the sound. Or, not directly, at least: I think it varies according to frequency. You can see this magnified in the case of the many, many artists who have no understanding (some, even after decades on the job!) of mic technique. If the artist doubles the distance from the mic (easy: we are talking about just a few inches) the sound received by the mic halves; if [s]he halves the distance, it doubles.

I think jivari has a fairly simple function and action: by holding the string off the bridge it causes it to vibrate against the bridge, introducing a "buzz." This might be considered a bad fault in another instrument, but the tampura has designed/developed/evolved so that it has become essential part of a deeply pleasing sound.

That University of New South Wales site is a wonderful introduction to the physics both of sound itself and of individual instruments. Thanks for the reminder

baradu2 · Post by **baradu2** » 09 Jan 2014, 15:20

Hi everyone!
The most important question that I would like to ask here is, why does the instrument Veena not sound loud enough to be played as a pure microphone-less concert (mic-less) with Mridangam as accompaniment (mridangam again not amplified through mic) whereas a Guitar or bass guitar or even Sitar (my focus is only on plucked string instruments and not bowed) can manage easily though all prefer the acoustic or piezo-electric or magnetic pickup or dynamic or condenser microphone? Without Mridangam as accompaniment or without any accompaniment for that matter is another issue altogether!
Lets take the Guitar for instance,
As for as what I can understand from all the guitar forums, there are three types of guitars.
1 the Electric Guitar with steel strings
2 the Acoustic Guitar with steel strings
3 the Classical Guitar with nylon strings
the electric Guitar is heavy, its strings ranging from lighter to the lightest gauge are used for the same pitch as of acoustic Guitar so much so that bending of notes is easier and they sound feeble and dull without any kind of amplification.
The acoustic Guitar or acou-electric Guitar as some people call it, is not as heavy, the strings are not very loose with medium scope to even little scope for pitch bend (again it depends on the gauge of strings used be it light or medium), has the facility to fit a magnetic pickup if necessary and be used as an electric Guitar and also has the capacity to be played without any amplification!
The classical Guitar is extremely light, tightest gauge strings are used and that too mainly nylon strings and they are tightened to the maximum extent suggested by the respective companies, tightening it a bit further would damage or cut the strings, it sounds loud and bright without any kind of amplification and has zero scope for pitch bending!
Now, why cant the acoustic Veena sound as loud as the classical guitar?
My assumption which may be completely wrong too (please do correct me if so) is that,
Firstly, Carnatic Music being Gamaka oriented music, the major unavoidable factor in the instrument VEENA is bending of the strings to bring out the Gamaka! Sliding, split fingering and various methods are also used along with it but the major factor is pitch bend of the string! Now, unlike a Guitar which specifically has been categorized according to their ability and sound produced by them like electric guitar or acoustic or classical guitar, a Veena is almost always considered an acoustic instrument irrespective of what strings are being used to produce the sound be it steel or stainless steel or nylon! now, because of the reason that Gamaka is the priority, almost all Veenas are set with lighter gauge strings to ease pitch bend. The advantage in Carnatic music is also that any composition of any composer is played with liberty in any pitch so desired by the musician unlike in western classical music where a composition is played by the musician in the pitch in which it is actually composed! So, we also have the liberty to play an Air recording in the morning at sruthi F and play with the same instrument and same setup of strings in the evening at a sabha in sruthi E or D sharp!
In the case of the Sitar, the instrument by itself is as light as a classical Guitar if not more and the Sitar is made with mahogany or even lighter wood! Some people say Sitars are even made from Bamboo. I dont know about that for sure though. the strings are also fairly tight and meant to give reasonable resonance when plucked with or without bending.
Just MHO.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Jan 2014, 16:36

the sounding chamber of a sitar is made from a gourd.

baradu2 · Post by **baradu2** » 09 Jan 2014, 17:30

Nick H sir very true. Sorry to have missed that part. Sounding chamber is made from gourd.

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 09 Jan 2014, 22:40

Srini Pitchumani: In general, there is a penchant to celebrate the easy continuity, fluidity in instrumental music be it on the violin or flute or chitravina... more than it is worth...!

"syllabic attack" that was possible on the vina as opposed to a gooey continuity and how it enhanced musical expression.

Keeping the multi-dimensional requirements of a good system of music, syllabic attack is as essential a part of any instrument as sustain and continuity are. Thus a good violinist or slide instrumentalist must work assiduously to master tautness in certain phrases through right/left hand techniques, just as an exponent of a fretted instrument must endeavour to explore sustain. In either case, at least an 80-20% balance between skill & technology would be commendable. It is fairly positive as long as technology is a supplement (and not a substitute) for skills.

The most important question that I would like to ask here is, why does the instrument Veena not sound loud enough to be played as a pure microphone-less concert

Very good question which I used to ask myself even as a teen-ager. There are loads of factors but a few obvious ones are:

(a) Its low pitch: Even among vainikas, one'll notice that artistes playing in F are heard much better than those playing in D# or lower. But one has to trade off somewhere to get the oscillations typical of CM but I have always felt that most vainikas can afford to play at least 1/2 or 1 tone higher than their current pitch. Contrast the top C or C# in which sitar is played - its reach even mikeless would be far higher. The Chitravina is again played in G# or B to C, which gives it a brighter tone. Even among Western strings, the violin stands out (compared to viola, cello etc) because of its higher pitch.

(b) Basic design: Needs lots of scientific study and improvements. If tonal efficiency were to be measured purely as a ration of size vs output, Carnatic strings would be somewhere at the bottom of the ladder when compared with Western and HM/Persian instruments.

(c) Unstandardised approach: I've seen personally that if I order 10 instruments, only 1 or 2 are to my satisfaction (at a fundamental level).

(d) Playing techniques, tuning etc: CM artistes in general focus more on the musicianship than on tone and volume. Here, an artiste is generally judged by what and how much his left hand does to such a degree that even highly skillful right hand techniques are often dismissed as gimmickry! Thus, most artistes hardly pay attention to improving their right hand - which is like the primary source of making one's music attractive to general audiences (while the left hand is essential to command the respect of the cognoscenti). It's essential that an artiste works on both to reach international standards of excellence. Coming to tuning, it's a scientific fact that a well tuned instrument will produce a lot of sympathetic resonance which also impacts on its overall brightness and richness. Since most CM string artistes pay less attention to this vital part of music, most of their strings produce beats, which dampen the 'naadam'.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jan 2014, 04:26

Ravikiran,
Simply stated and comprehensively covered. Thank you. Your pointers show how we can build on the lovely subtlety of the Veena, with improved skill, and more importantly improved technology.

This discussion is now giving me a good feeling, the samas as that of reaching a good destination, the same feeling as when the train crosses Paschimavahini on the way to Mysore.

Coming to size vs. output, actually that's an obvious one, isn't it!

After having known only veenas at home, I once saw and touched the acoustic guitar in the IIT hostel. So light, and such a big resonant chamber in proportion to its fret board! The way it is held...so lovely.

Here is a picture I took in Venice that says it all! (Yes, he was a leftie).

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jan 2014, 04:47

Folks, last night I was read out a page from the book on KUVEMPU, a stupendously great Kannada poet, by his musically trained daughter.
It was 1959. The AIR programme schedule in the newspaper listed that the next morning, there would be a live broadcast of a concert by Gottuvadyam Narayana Iyengar. The poet told the family that they should listen without fail, and the radio should be switched on in time. They heard the broadcast, of great music, which was unfortunately constantly punctuated by coughing, an obvious indication of the musician's indisposition. Kuvempu was quite upset and felt deeply for the musician's health condition, saying that AIR should have used good technology and taken the recorder to his home, rather than bother him to travel all the way to the studio in cold weather.
Soon after the concert, the radio interrupted the next programme to announce that the musician had breathed his last just after leaving the studio for his hotel. Kuvempu was very distressed.
The scene shifts to ten years later, when Iyengar's grandson, a child of three, is amazing musicians and critics by identifying ragas like Kalyani, Bhairavi, Kharaharapriya and so on, in the Fine Arts college where the daughter was a student. She came home excitedly and narrated it to her father. Kuvempu said,
"Each soul journeys to earth to fulfill its divine promise.if someone's life ends prematurely, without running to its full potential and fulfillment, the soul is reborn. When the rebirth happens soon after, the soul 'remembers' its purpose and carries on the momentum of its journey in its reincarnation. That is how this child has been born and so is he gifted. He will some day soon be a great Gottuvadyam player, that his grand father would be truly proud of."

sreebeecane · Post by **sreebeecane** » 10 Jan 2014, 04:51

Rsachi wrote:Folks, last night I was read out a page from the book on KUVEMPU, a stupendously great Kannada poet, by his musically trained daughter.
It was 1959. The AIR programme schedule in the newspaper listed that the next morning, there would be a live broadcast of a concert by Gottuvadyam Narayana Iyengar. The poet told the family that they should listen without fail, and the radio should be switched on in time. They heard the broadcast, of great music, which was unfortunately constantly punctuated by coughing, an obvious indication of the musician's indisposition. Kuvempu was quite upset and felt deeply for the musician's health condition, saying that AIR should have used good technology and taken the recorder to his home, rather than bother him to travel all the way to the studio in cold weather.
Soon after the concert, the radio interrupted the next programme to announce that the musician had breathed his last just after leaving the studio for his hotel. Kuvempu was very distressed.
The scene shifts to ten years later, when Iyengar's grandson, a child of three, is amazing musicians and critics by identifying ragas like Kalyani, Bhairavi, Kharaharapriya and so on, in the Fine Arts college where the daughter was a student. She came home excitedly and narrated it to her father. Kuvempu said,
"Each soul journeys to earth to fulfill its divine promise.if someone's life ends prematurely, without running to its full potential and fulfillment, the soul is reborn. When the rebirth happens soon after, the soul 'remembers' its purpose and carries on the momentum of its journey in its reincarnation. That is how this child has been born and so is he gifted. He will some day soon be a great Gottuvadyam player, that his grand father would be truly proud of."

The only thing that comes close to Dharmapuri Subbarayar gifting the Senjurutti javaLi to Dhanammal is this.

What a touching observation by Kuvempu. yaav pustakadallittu idu?

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 10 Jan 2014, 06:57

Dear brother-member, chitravina ravikiran, What you wrote is the absolute truth in respect of ‘unstandardised approach’. Due to this ‘unstandardised approach’ our Carnatic music has been carrying different kinds of set backs with it and mostly many of the aspirants are very badly affected due to this defective approach in the methods in teaching. As most of the professional musicians are mainly performance oriented they all are unable even to recognize this irreparable loss. msakella

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 10 Jan 2014, 07:41

I think it’s about time a picture of the lovely chitravina (formerly more commonly referred to as gotuvadyam) was published here. Here’s a keeper…a close up as Shri Ravikiran gets ready to accompany the late Smt.Muktamma in Cleveland back in 2002.

SrinathK wrote:How efficient would be this coupling as compared to the one on a veena?

Hmm...violin resonator is optimized for bowing methinks. This means that it is optimized for low attack volume but relies on a sustained "attack". The energy is rapidly dissipated by those thin walls but who cares...bowing supplies a constant amount of energy all the time. But when you pluck a violin string, say the A string, while the initial volume is not too bad (of course far far less than bowing, even the soft Indian style bowing) due to the high attack energy supplied by the pluck, the decay is fairly quick, esp. compared to the vina or chitravina. Again short strings decay faster than long strings. When you bow a vina string (I've tried it with a violin bow!) the volume generated is very feeble because the vina is designed for much higher "attack" energies in the form of the pluck. Even using a cello or bass bow would not make a difference because the only optimization for those are for thicker strings.
Then there's also this quote from that lovely Australian website (thanks for reminding me about it...I used to go there so often!):
"...There is another important difference between plucking and bowing. A plucked string very quickly loses its high harmonics and, after a few seconds, nearly all of the remaining energy in the string is in its fundamental. Bowing inputs energy continuously to the string and thereby maintains the power in the high harmonics..."
And then my mind is wandering off...so much to think about...

Rsachi wrote:Coming to size vs. output, actually that's an obvious one, isn't it!

In the business of optimizing sustain, unfortunately nothing is obvious

. Without reinforcement a plucked string has to depend on the initial energy supplied. We have to start at the law of conservation of energy:
Energy can neither be created nor destroyed
When a string is plucked, the potential energy of the displaced string during pluck is converted to the kinetic energy of the vibrating string. Without reinforcement, the only thing we can do is manage how that initial supply of energy is dissipated. The resonator, no matter how cleverly designed, cannot add “new” energies

. So EVERYTHING, including size has a trade off. Even “active” amplification (i.e., electronic amplification) will eventually decay without reinforcement (like bowing violin or blowing a flute or left handed techniques with vina and chitravina).

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 10 Jan 2014, 07:46

the soul is reborn.

No doubt about that .
The soul is born old but grows young. That is the comedy of life.
And the body is born young and grows old. That is life's tragedy.”
Oscar Wilde

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jan 2014, 08:14

"magaLu kanDa kuvempu" by Tarini Chidananda, pub. PUSTAKA PRAKASHANA, Mysore. Page 320.

Kuvempu had much interest and sensitivity to music. He liked gottuvadyam for its sustain!

baradu2 · Post by **baradu2** » 10 Jan 2014, 15:32

dear ravikiran sir,
thanks a lot for the short but meaningful explanation. :ymapplause:
One more question that I would like to ask is,
Why do the instrumentalists restrict the scope of their instrument to only 3 octaves? It is understandable that we as instrumentalists try to play a piece just the way any vocalist would sing and call it gAyakI style (please do correct me by all means), but, by doing this are we not limiting the scope of the instrument to only 3 octaves when it can actually do more?
Taking kshIra sAgara of dEvagAndhAri for example, of the few musicians that I have listened to, Balamurali krishna sir is the only one who has sung tAraka rAmA in such a way that athi-thAra sthAyI sadjam and rishabam are reached (the 24th note and 26th note or 12th note of second octave and 2nd note of third octave which by the way is difficult in a fretted instrument because there are only 24 frets in the Veena!)
Why set the instrument with only 24 frets?

gardabha_gana · Post by **gardabha_gana** » 10 Jan 2014, 15:57

Sachi sir - Is the book in print still? Next time I would like to meet you sir in a bangalore concert.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jan 2014, 16:13

Baradu, many instrumentalists (MSG, LGJ, MUS, GK, even a vainika..) have played 4 octaves, but it doesn't sound musical, just gimmicky.

GG, are you coming to Saketaraman+UKS at ISS?

The Kuvempu book: https://sapnaonline.com/magalu-kanda-kuvempu-303565

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Jan 2014, 19:27

Rsachi wrote:Baradu, many instrumentalists (MSG, LGJ, MUS, GK, even a vainika..) have played 4 octaves, but it doesn't sound musical, just gimmicky.

Sachi: I think I have an idea of what you are saying and I have felt that too (but not always). Yeah, 4 octaves would sound jarring in the normal CM context. Just as an observation, it is interesting to notice the following asymmetry. I have heard people characterize as gimmicks when a vocalist hits the high 'pa' or 'dha' or higher, which gets applause from the audience. The artist even gets accused of playing to the gallery. But the same people like it and even consider it divine when the artist goes lower than the low ma and sustain it.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jan 2014, 19:44

Going to the lower octave takes us deeper into a bhava, I think. When Ramani picks up the long flute to play the soft, low notes in Ahir bhairav or Kapi or Mohana or Shiva ranjani, it takes me to a more profound state. That is why perhaps all instruments like veena and violin have the lower octave strings. But hitting the highs, trilling to the top Sa.. is interesting to me only because it is difficult. Not musical.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Jan 2014, 20:22

Sachi, I agree. Thinking about that a bit, it may just be the strain ( caused by the degree of difficulty ) on the artist's voice that make it sound like that. It can not be just the frequency of the sound since, for example, we find the natural female G to be very pleasant all the way to high Pa. So a C# kattai musician singing a high Sa is same as a G musician singing a high P frequency wise.

May be a male female duo can try this. It is highly probable that such a duo has already done this.
Assuming the male is C# and female is G, male can go up to high Sa comfortably and hold there at which point the female joins with her natural Pa as the Sa and take it up all the way to higher (tara) 'Ni' and then dramatically hit and hold her higher 'Pa' comfortably ( which will be the high 'Sa' for the piece ). Similarly on the low end, the male can take it over and go below to madhrasthayi. In the middle they can both sing together.

May be the ultimate in such effort would be a fast slide down from the S'' all the way down to madhra Ga with the musicians seamlessly backing off at the appropriate points. ( just like how shashank changes flutes

), They may be accused of gimmickry still but it may be fun if employed tactically at a few places in the concert for variety.

(hope this is not too far removed from the general vibe of this thread )

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jan 2014, 22:04

VKM,
you're right. This thing about octaves and voices belongs elsewhere.

To see the opportunities and challenges for male-female voice combos, one could listen to S Janaki and SPB, Lata and Rafi, Praveen Sultana and her husband...
It almost never optimises the musical effect in my opinion, apart from shortchanging one of the voices.

espras · Post by **espras** » 10 Jan 2014, 22:13

There was a highly respected and proficient gottuvadyam artist by name M. V. Varahaswamy. He was based in Bangalore. His concerts were scholarly and highly appreciated by discerning audience.

A group of us friends had a great fascination for his music. Although, as youngsters, we did not understand much of the subtleties of it, what attracted us was the touching and deep resonating tones of low register emanating from the instrument.

Once, after a concert of his at a Ramanavami pandal near our residence in Basavanagudi, we made bold and hopped on to the stage to ask MVV about the instrument. He was lovingly caressing his gleaming vadyam and was getting ready to cover it up. Even at that late hour, the kind soul that he was, he patiently explained to us the intricacies of the instrument, the role of gourd and the main and auxiliary thanthies, which were seeming to be adding up to an impressively large number. As for the complexity of playing the vadyam he had said that it was like tight rope walking and added ‘swalpa tappidaru sowkhyakke dhakke’.

I am glad to hear MVV’s name again in another context. His young granddaughter Aditi Krishnaprakash has been awarded the ‘A’ grade by Akashvani.

No, Aditi is not a gottuvadyam specialist. She is a violinist.

Guess who the guru is who is giving her lessons in advanced music. Our own Chitravina Ravikiran!

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/187 ... award.html

S. Prasanna.

gardabha_gana · Post by **gardabha_gana** » 10 Jan 2014, 23:16

Wow. I have heard aditi play didn't know she was varahaswamy's grand daughter

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jan 2014, 23:37

Addition accompanied Aishwarya in Unnati recently.
My best wishes to her!

baradu2 · Post by **baradu2** » 11 Jan 2014, 10:42

Rsachi wrote:Going to the lower octave takes us deeper into a bhava, I think. When Ramani picks up the long flute to play the soft, low notes in Ahir bhairav or Kapi or Mohana or Shiva ranjani, it takes me to a more profound state. That is why perhaps all instruments like veena and violin have the lower octave strings.

Very true sir. That is probably one of the reasons why when the Vocalist Md Ramanathan kept his tonic or "AdhAra sruthi" in 1/2 kattai or even lower and sang an octave and more below the tonic note, it would still captured the listeners' hearts (manadhai thottudhu!)! Is it not a different case in Violin? The instrument by itself is tuned an octave higher so that the when the vocalist sings the AdhAra sadjam the thara sadjam of the violin is played even though for that particular instrument it is the AdhAra sadjam! My assumption is that it is probably tuned in such a way so that it does not sound like a Cello or a Double Bass! I could be completely wrong. Please do correct me if so. :-\

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 11 Jan 2014, 11:00

Listen to VVS.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 11 Jan 2014, 11:24

baradu2 wrote:That is probably one of the reasons why when the Vocalist Md Ramanathan kept his tonic or "AdhAra sruthi" in 1/2 kattai

No baradu, much lower than that. MDR's shruti was usually G# (5.5 Kattai) or A (6 kattai), below the normal male sthayi's 1 kattai. And he could go one octave below that too, to his mandhara shadkja

. Crazy low, huh ?!
Please see:
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 97#p234368

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 11 Jan 2014, 15:10

When it comes to matters violin, the spacing of the notes keeps decreasing in geometric fashion as you go up the board until it is impossible to play semi tones (or even whole steps without shifting position except by the one finger technique. To play an arpeggio like s g p S G P S... etc.. or a major scale is actually not so hard when you have standard finger sequences for all positions, but when you throw in gamakas and the fine details of ragas, it becomes absolutely wicked! Try the difference between a 3 octave major scale and a 3 octave shankarabharanam

Then again in western violin, it is held horizontal and under the chin for the sole purpose of bringing the left arm around to the right of the instrument so that the higher positions can be reached, and that is harder to do in our sitting position. The drawback of bringing the arm around is that the wrist tilts to such an extreme angle that it is very difficult to play any gamakas like that. Normally playing gamakas in 1st position involves up and down wrist movement, but up there your wrist will be almost sideways. So MSG used a single finger and took off his thumb to free his hand instead.

But even if you could play something there, it would be redundant. You wouldn't play anything different from what has already been played in 3 octaves.

And about range : C4 (middle C) is a male singer's upper Sa singing in C. By that yardstick, MDR had his lowermost note at an incredible G1. Among modern singers, TMK's range is enormous. I have heard him from Anumanthara panchamam to ati tara gandharam which puts his range from G1 to E5 (3.75 octaves) which covers the entire male range from extreme bass to extreme tenor and all in between.

The violin in Carnatic music (with a total of all tunings from MDR's shruti and up) can be used in a truly mind bogglingly HUGE range from G2 (Lower shadja at MDR's pitch to C sharp 8! -which represents a 6.5 kattai violin playing the GA note 1 octave above the ati tarasthyaai Ga. I have heard this position being reached in some recordings of LGJ and MSG so it is possible to reach it if the tuning is higher -- This note is also the highest known note hit in Western classical violin, and it's BEYOND the fingerboard.

Depending on the tuning (uday can tell me how low one can tune the chitraveena), I think only the chitraveena can beat this range, although it's notes will be an octave below the violin's.

On a veena, anything above Ati tara shadja is off the frets.

bhargavi_b · Post by **bhargavi_b** » 12 Jan 2014, 07:54

I was informed that Shri Ravikiran will be doing a lec-dem on this very subject today in Chennai for Shri Rajesh Vaidya's Ravna School of Veena around 10 am at:

'THOPPU', SURAKSHA ENT CENTRE
OLD NO 64, RANGA ROAD/Subramanian st,
ABIRAMAPURAM, CHENNAI - 600018.
Contact : +91 98840 86060

It might throw light on many issues being discussed here in this thread !!

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 13 Jan 2014, 11:01

@baradu2, The violin is tuned an octave higher because it's design is optimized for that range. It cannot be tuned lower, otherwise the body of the instrument would have to be much bigger (cello size) and the violin will simply not perform well. On average the violin in CM is used in a much lower range than the western concert pitch so it does lose some tone and volume if the strings become too loose.

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 14 Jan 2014, 07:36

Baradu wrote:
Why do the instrumentalists restrict the scope of their instrument to only 3 octaves? It is understandable that we as instrumentalists try to play a piece just the way any vocalist would sing and call it gAyakI style (please do correct me by all means), but, by doing this are we not limiting the scope of the instrument to only 3 octaves when it can actually do more?

This is a question with complex answers, some of which have been covered by others but there probably is another important factor - tessitura - which is "the most musically acceptable and comfortable range of a voice or instrument". Thus, it is not one's "potential" range but one's "sweet-spot" range. Good artistes will (even subconsciously) tend to stay within this at least 90-95% of the time.

For instance, most CM vocalists range is around 2 octaves, say from low Pa to high Pa. (2 plus is a bonus, 3 and above is superb). But one'd find most of them not venturing much below low Ni or above high Ri/Ga. The tessitura of vocalists who have invested in quality voice culture is obviously more and we have instances of those artistes travelling more freely between octaves.

Likewise, each instrument has a natural range in which it sounds sweetest and artistes tend to gravitate towards those. So, even though the veena is fretted to cover 3-1/2 octaves, most artistes will stick to 2 octaves. In fretless instruments like violin the higher ranges can be extended by an octave but it takes much effort to bring fidelity to pitch and tone in those regions. Chitravina, probably has the highest range after piano - I've at times played up to 5-1/2 octaves - but I'd still use the highest ranges only as a flash of colour.

Flautists in recent times bring multiple flutes to address this - but someone like Mali sir (who stuck to only one flute) would jump to lower octaves during higher sections in many compositions (as many violinists have done since).

But with more than 99% of our composed music being in a range of lower Pa to high Ga/Ma most CM listeners are also culturally comfortable in a sonic range of about 2 octaves (even though many relish tranquil lower octave exploration). HM listeners are used to a wider sonic range while Western audiences tend to find sonic range of only around 2 octaves mono-dimensional.