Dear rasikas,
I attended a two hour lecdem at Essae on tani avartanam by Sri. Trichy Sankaran accompanied by N. Amrith on Khanjira.
The hall was quite full, with the front carpet occupied by several laya vidwan youngsters.
Sri TS began by saying that the tani avartanam is an integral part of the Carnatic concert and should never be used for a recess or break by the audience.
He explained the schools of Pudukottai and Tanjavur, the former developed by Dakshinamurthy Pillai, Muthiah Pillai and Pazhani Subramanya Pillai. He demonstrated the clarity of the Gumki, the solidity of the sound and the way mridangam becomes not just a Laya but a Sruthi Vadya in the Pudukottai school.
He explained the terms mohra, korvai, arudi, nadai, poruttam, etc. He spoke about them and then played for a bit. He stated the tani should build on the laya structure of the swaras sung just before and the laya context at that point of the song. it should not be too long. It should not jump into the final section abruptly. it is not important to make very complex and confusing laya patterns but put the musicians and the audience at ease and make them enjoy the tani.
He gave generous praise to Amrith. He said Harishankar is a 'na bhooto na bhavishyati' legend in the art of Khanjira play. He said that the Pudukottai school had developed the art of Khanjira play to match the mridangam sollus in its own way.
He played a brief tani with Amrith in Adi tala 2 kalai. Amrith later said he had expected the much more complex Tristram trademark finish but Sri TS had chosen a rather simple mukthaya. Everyone highly enjoyed the sound quality and crispness of the tani by the duo.
There were questions.
1. If the tani is given at a midpoint in the tala cycle, like the third beat in Mishra Chapu, how to play..adjusting for the 30 beats(28+2). He showed how many possibilities are there.
2. Should the audience put tala frenetically? Does it disturb the musicians? He said putting the tala discreetly and correctly is very important. No over-excitement please.
3. How do you prepare for a concert? He said the laya vidwan should be well prepared to play any kind of tani in any kind of tala, by constant practice.
4. The Khanjira vidwan has an even greater challenge...Amrith said that it is a professional hazard especially accompanying the greats.
5. Konakkol is a vital art for every laya vidwan. TS gave a demo.
TS showed his two publications, on the art of South Indian percussion and on konakkol.
Since many stalwarts in this forum like KSSR were present, I request them to correct/augment what I have reported.
"stalwarts....like KSSR". These two words can never go together. Needs immediate correction
"He explained the terms mohra, korvai, arudi, nadai, poruttam, etc."
He used some of these words. Never gave any explanation.
The lecdem is supposed to increase the layman's appreciation of Thani avarthanam. Did it achieve that? Highly questionable.
He said that when a mridangam artist commences the thani, one should immediately be able to decipher what thaaLam it is. He then played a string and asked what it was. No one knew except the vidwans among the audience. One of them answered correctly.
Sri.Sankaran is a maestro. The naadam from his instrument is truly remarkable. It was delightful to hear him play the thani with Amrith. Other than that I do not think that it added to our knowledge. It was not "entertaining" as a two hour concert would have been. As Sri.TS himself conceded, the percussion is a single dimentional sound whereas voice is a multi dimentional one. Although not precisely understandable, we get a feel from the statement, that the enjoyment from a vocal portion will be much more than a mridangam or ghatam.
Couple of things on which I saw a bit of light were:
a. How the thani is composed. Although it is manodharma based, variations made by the artist are in the a. number of letters per beat b. speed- double, 4 times, etc., and c. one more variation which I do not remember!
b. During thani, between the two percussionists, they play in a slow reducing order, the number of avarthanams per cycle , to 3, 2, 1, half, quarter, one beat and this is called koraippu. At the end of the koraippu, they play what is called peria (big)mohra, together. In case of each school, say pudukkotai, etc., they have some "standard" peria mohras which all the percussionists are supposed to know and hence it can be played together, without stepping on each other's toes.
Overall it was a good and different experience listening to a specialist talking about his speciality. The lecdem or workshop is really more relavant and useful to other vidwans and students of percussion when they can get clarification for questions related to complex accompanying and thani challenges.
kssr wrote:
The lecdem is supposed to increase the layman's appreciation of Thani avarthanam. Did it achieve that? Highly questionable.
.
I agree. I did enjoy the thani. Being a laya layman I learnt nothing, except not to go out of the hall, which I never do and put tala in front row, I never sit in front row.
He said that when a mridangam artist commences the thani, one should immediately be able to decipher what thaaLam it is. He then played a string and asked what it was. No one knew except the vidwans among the audience. One of them answered correctly.
VKM,
My recall is a bit different.
TS showed how the tani begins and builds up progressively complex beat patterns all within the basic tala. When it commences it will have minimal strokes showing the tala. Then he showed Mishra Chapu and Khanda Chapu with very few strokes. As I recall, many (including me) immediately grasped the tala.
As Sri.TS himself conceded, the percussion is a single dimentional sound whereas voice is a multi dimentional one. Although not precisely understandable, we get a feel from the statement, that the enjoyment from a vocal portion will be much more than a mridangam or ghatam.
I would not infer that from TS's statement. [-x It does not logically follow.
What TS said is that percussion is principally a pakka-vadyam, as it does not have all the elements of music like vocal (=lyric, raga, bhava etc.) He also said mridangam has both sruti and laya, has to sound melodious too.
Thanks Sachi. OK that makes sense. And I can see how KC and MC can have a distinctive pattern that can be shown with a few strokes along the lines of tha-ka-tha-ki-ta and tha-ka-di-mi-tha-ki-ta.
I wonder if the same extends for longer thalas. Can someone clarify if based on mridangam strokes alone (without showing any kriyas ),can another good mridangist tell if the thani is in Adi or khanda jampa or trisra matya ( all 8 beat cycles )
My idea of a perfect lecdem on tani would be-
-Play a 'model' tani recording of about 10 min
-play it back bit by bit after explaining the elements
-show via konnakol or mridangam play possible variations
- play a couple of short audio clips of different 'high impact' tani clips.
Someone with the communicative skills of TRS would be able to do it!
Do we have such lecdems already?
Sri Kalidas did some of this in the lecdem he presented at TAG centre back in December. He also pitched the level of the presentation at pretty-much beginner level. During the demo tani, the section playing was indicated on a slide.
TS has been a professor of music in a foreign land for possibly more years [???] than any other carnatic musician [???]. I would expect that he would be able to pitch this stuff at any level, and in any language that he speaks.
Nick, true but teaching to non-students and layman is a much tougher assignment, especially when the audience has some laya knowledgeable people. It will be good to do this. Conduct a KG level quiz as they enter the auditorium and if they pass, don't let them in!
This is just like a course I took a while back. That was about this AllPowerfulSoftware 3.0 . The instructor said he is not going to assume any knowledge of 2.0 or 1.0 since it is possible to teach 3.0 by itself. But there were people who were well versed in 2.0. He was compelled to keep referring to 2.0 way of doing things much to the irritation of us new people. It is not because we did not want to hear such things but he was not teaching the 3.0 stuff properly for those who did not have any of that background. I had the same idea then, to ban all these people who knew this stuff already
First our lay audience must be taught how to count. Then they can claim to be a laya audience. :p Pun aside, the main problem here is that our students and audiences have to be introduced to the art of counting in such a way that with that little push they can understand how to figure out the intricacies by themselves. One way of doing this would be to start with simple patterns of beats and pauses adding up to a certain number of units, then a little more complicated (eduppu variations). Then a few typical patterns lasting for 1 or 2 tala cycles -- a couple of mohras and some simple korvais. Finally counting the patterns at different tempos. A few simple nadai exercises. And finally ending patterns like the typical tdgnt.
A good idea would be to really slow down many tanis (or at least certain passages) to 1/3rd the normal tempo so that the fast fireworks are actually resolvable into real patterns. Doing this at home really helps understand the tani much better and at least the audience should be encouraged to do this themselves.
Talas like Misra chaapu tend to build on a basic pattern like this -- t,k,t, ! t,k, ! t,k, !! and become more complicated like t,ktt, ! kttk ! t, td,t !! and eventually much more complex by using patterns in higher speeds. But that basic beat pattern like t,tkt, ! tkd,! tkkt !! is always there in the background and when you can register that you cannot mistake the tala for anything else.
Last but not the least, I wish that before the tani the artists would at least announce a few details of what they are going to play (eduppu or nadais) so that the audience isn't left scratching their head. When we have compositions, ragas composers and pallavis and even talas being announced, then why not the plan of the tani? They could even demonstrate for a couple of seconds where they will change the nadai so that we can anticipate it when it comes. Just that one step would go a long way in keeping the audience's focus on the tani. Any thoughts?
One other thing I feel is that most of the thanis I have heard today concentrate on playing patterns in the very high (and very difficult to count) 8, 10, 12 or 16 stroke / beat speed range (a.k.a fireworks speeds) a lot, as compared to playing more in the 4 or 3 or 6 stroke per beat speeds which are easier to grasp by the audience. Again would like to hear feedback on this.
Last edited by SrinathK on 16 Jan 2014, 12:09, edited 1 time in total.
It seems to me that most members of a carnatic audience have no problem keeping tala. Even though I sat in mridangam class for a number of years, I do not count myself among them, and have almost never been able to maintain the tala throughout a complete tani including nadai changes and korvais. So I wonder if this lack of understanding is not exaggerated?
Some of the art of the tani is in mystery. There are basic, obvious compositions (of the thom , , thakita kind for tisra) that are as unmissable as the relentless takitha-thakita-thakita pounding of many film songs. But this is not always how a mridangist wants to make things. He may play chatusra patterns in tisra nadai, just to confuse (or even entertain and puzzle us). He may also, do with his fingers, just what you ask, and introduce patterns belonging to the other nadai, before the change. Asking him to put this into words, unless it is a lecdem, might be akin to asking a vocalist to pause and explain the melody they are about to sing!
But vocalists and instrumentalists do announce their details (ok, most instrumentalists and some vocalists do). From what I have observed there are few members can put the tala AND follow the rhythm and there are plenty who put wrongly too. Many of them are just following the vocalist & violinist putting the tala and understanding whatever their instinct can take grasp (myself included when the fireworks become too complex -- a 10 stroke per beat khanda and a 9 stroke per beat sankeerna nadai can be easily confused for each other unless the patterns are simple). That's not to say that there are good tala renderers in the audience, but this level of rhythm is non-intuitive for a layman and it has to be grasped very deliberately.
During the lec dem 'laya for lay man' of parivadini, one of the organizers ( I think it is Lalitha Ram ) asked the right question. On the melody side, we see people getting better at recognizing ragas over time with repeated listening. He asked if there is a way to provide some guidance to people so they can develop over time a mental model of relating to what is being played on the rhythm side.
I think that is a good goal. I would not know how to go about doing that. But in broad terms, for anything to be recognizable by the lay man, some things have to be repeated in a more or less unchanging form, from one concert to the other. The variations can be there but there have to be some constants across concerts. It is just like comedians telling jokes, the audience needs to have a lot of prior reference for them to get the humor.
As an illustration of this concept, anyone and everyone who lives near a big temple knows what a mallari is
( and what it signifies ). It may be/can be in different ragas but that specific rhythmic pattern is what makes people recognize that to be a mallari.
In a thani there are not many such obvious anchor points for people to latch on to, except, say, for the koraippu. Again, it is that familiar pattern across concerts. Another one is, If you clue them in, they can latch on to the finale where there are discernible groups of three. They do not need to really know beyond that. Outside of these two, for most people the thani is one big stretch without discernible patterns that they can latch on to.
One thing that percussionists can innovate is to play something that are easy to recognize at the beginning of the thani. If there are say 10 such highly recognizable patterns at the beginning, I can easily imagine people learning to recognize that over time. It will keep them interested. Repetition of those patterns is the key.
Also, if there are two or more percussionists, do not start with really long sections before handing it off to the other person who then has a long section. That is what makes people lose interest. Start with short sections that are easy to recognize, then increase it to a few avarthanams and then the middle can be a big one and then go in to the koraippu and the rest. All the manodharma can be in that middle section. Again the well known pattern need not be just one, it can be many but they have to be repeated numerous times so there is that cultural memory. People can then even start referring to those patterns by names and that simple vocabulary/label is very important for people to show interest in what is going on. Such a vocabulary then becomes part of the conversation and that is what builds that cultural memory over time. That is the reference people need to relate to the rhythm just like they do in relating to the melody.
We have some great exercises for this very topic in our rhythm section -- even the book is freely available for download. Importantly I feel it is not correct to teach the layman everything, but teach them enough to perk up their interest and find their way through south indian rhythm by directing them to the right resources. The ones on our forum (sangeethapriya -- the easy methods cd) are also a very good resource.
We also would have to ask people to get an app or a program that can slow recordings down (without changing the pitch). Maybe I will try posting a tani sample slowed down to analyze, but I have personally found it very helpful for just about any difficult point in a CM recording.
SrinathK wrote:But vocalists and instrumentalists do announce their details ...
Only of song, raga, talam. They do not pause to explain the progression of a series of sangatis, nor do they explain patterns, or nadai changes, in kalapana swaras (which is similar to what is being requested here of mridangists). They do not even (with exceptions) announce ragas in raga-malika swarams.
Lets take this back to real layman status: It is not very many years since I would have been glad of announcements like, "neraval starts here; swaras start here," But for the vast majority (and even for me now) that would be an intolerable interruption to the flow.
Mridangists do, very often, play something that is easy to recognise at the beginning of the tani. They often begin with a tekka-based composition, eg NaThaThaDhin, which is easy, rhythmically, to relate to. Such a device is also an artistic release of tension, later in the tani, after complex nadais and stuff. The talam and edeppu are fixed by the song. If it is understood for the song, then it is understood for the tani too.
The problem with nadais is that one either recognises patterns, or one has to count. Even without fireworks, my problem is that my brain just does not work that fast. Back in class, I would bemoan, "Guruji, I can't even think that, let alone play it!" The other day, I just happened to catch a nine-pulse-in-one-beat pattern, and realised, very late, that everything since mridangist had started to play tisra nadai, had remained in threes, even into the koraipu.
What to do? Go to mridangam class, I guess ...or attend a few lecdems, It is fairly easy to detect the latter phases, at least, of a tani in any talam (farans, mohara, korvai) just by knowing a characteristic phrase or two, or pattern, from Adi Talam. But even this, the mridangist can "obscurify," if he wants to.
Mahavishnu, That is definitely true. While keeping that in mind fully, let me make this orthogonal observation.
We can not expect the ordinary rasikas to spend all that time and energy. It will be great if they do, but most do not. They are not students of music. Let us look at the melody side, they have a good bank of knowledge without reading books or even knowing that there are 12 swara positions. They may not even know what Arohana/Avarohana is, let alone melakartha, janya ragas etc. Without any of that they enjoy the music, not just as an undecipherable whole but they know the raga, they know when the raga malika sets in, they know a compositions consists of a pallavi and other sections. For a lot of people, the first time they recognize a raga is a time of great thrill. Over time, they are proud of the bank of raga knowledge they have. All this without reading any books or learning anything formally about music.
Refrain/Repetion
How can that be done on the rhythm side? Nick speaks of a thani as a 'composition'. Great. May be that is a clue as to where to start. On the melody side, a composition consists of familiar and easy to recognize sections. Those sections are communicated to the audience by coming back to the pallavi line. People know it is neraval because there is a structural repetion + variation scheme. In kalpanaswara they come back again and again to the same melodic line. Those demarcations are absolutely critical for a layman. Once they know there are such sections, then even a 10 minute kalpanaswara consisting of various sections of increasing length is not a problem. What is the key? It is repetition/refrain. Not just the pallavi as a refrain but the more general concept of providing section markers through repetition.
People instinctively learn to recognize that. It may not kick in on the first 20 concerts but over a period of a few years they will definitely catch on. The demarcation made possible by the repetition/refrain is the most important thing that tells the layman something about those sections.
I am campaigning for something along those lines on the rhythm side so the lay rasikas over time can learn to recognize 'thani' compositions. That requires some "boring" repetitions over and over again for the 10 or 20 ( or even 100 ) such rhythmic compositions. Such 'sameness' is probably looked down upon among the 'inside rhythm' community but outside that is absolutely valuable. Hey, the melodic side people do it day in and day out!! Let us exploit that phenomenon that is inherent in how humans learn to recognize patterns, demarcations and the resulting structure.
None of this should be construed as diluting the thani. Structural reformation does not need to dilute the content. It also does not mean putting manodharma to the backseat.
I have my doubts if these will be adopted but if you want an absolute layman to enjoy rhythm at the same level of involvement as the melody one has to provide such a structure to them. If we keep doing the same thing, it is not reasonable to expect any changes.
That said, my point is that musical or laya gyanam does not come without some effort from the listener's side, even in the examples you mention. There is some user-driven reinforcement learning that is going on; the carrot being the identification of a ragam and the stick being not knowing the diff between sankarabharanam and kalyani. And the benefits of the plasticity of mere exposure!
Perhaps there is greater exposure to the melodic aspects of CM, but I still think if we polled an average person about what the performer is doing during manodharma sections, most people would draw a blank (even basic things like 1st/2nd speed neravals/swarams, full vs half avarthana swarams, eduppus etc, leave alone complex korvais/thirmanams unlike GRS and related phrases...)
A likely solution would be for the rasika to spend some time listening to tanis (and not walking out for starters); with enough exposure, several standard elements of the tani will be structurally apparent. And after years of listening, one will get a sense of how a brilliant tani is structured and get to the level of appreciating the intricacies of greats like TS. I think Nick was making a similar point (sort of).
In sum, my submission is that (in addition to all your good points), unless people want to put in the effort, they will keep complaining that they don't understand what a tani is all about.
We could start a thread on the grammar of a good tani, with illustrative clips from PMI, PSP, TS, UKS, PRR and others including upa-pakkavadyam artistes. And as the thread evolves, we will have educated ourselves more. Ram or Semmu would be ideal candidates to lead such a discussion. I'm sure JB and Erode could chime in as we go along.
if we polled an average person about what the performer is doing during manodharma sections, most people would draw a blank (even basic things like 1st/2nd speed neravals/swarams, full vs half avarthana swarams, eduppus etc, leave alone complex korvais/thirmanams unlike GRS and related phrases...)
We have one of two situations. Either...
People understand these things in the swaras, but have some problem in appreciating that much the same things go on in the tani. or...
People don't understand these things in the swaras, but they don't mind, whereas they do mind not understanding them in the tani.
By the way: I would be the last to claim that I "understand" the tani. I don't. Let's face it, I don't even know if it should have an "H" in it
mahavishnu wrote:In sum, my submission is that (in addition to all your good points), unless people want to put in the effort, they will keep complaining that they don't understand what a tani is all about.
EXACTLY! In addition to this, I believe that the problem lies even deeper than what you all have mentioned. Just to start with as an example, a conscious effort must be made to standardize the terminologies used in Laya. (Like aksharas, maathrais, beats, nadai, gathi etc..). I feel there are so many unwanted discussions/ debates going on about these and unfortunately thanks to some people who have a tendency (Desire rather) to over-complicate these terms; confuse the rasikas and then eventually ending up complaining that they dont stay back for the thani.
Vid. K. S. Kalidas tried to do something along similar lines (Attempt at standardizing terms) in his TAG & MA lecture, but time constraint was the culprit. One solution is to have more of such programmes, giving the presenter a free hand. If it is not possible to cover everything in one day, maybe have a workshop or a series of lectures, stretching over 3-4 days.
Again, am skeptical about the results of the same. For, if the presenter belongs to a particular school of thought & presents accordingly, the audience might get confused when they happen to hear other schools of thoughts. So in my opinion, "Standardization of the terminologies" is the first step towards appreciating laya. Having said that, I feel that it might be highly difficult to progress beyond even this step as am not sure as to how vidwans from various schools accept certain definitions outside of what they have learnt from their respective "Gurus". (One example which comes immediately to my mind is Gathi Vs Nadai dispute).
Last edited by semmu86 on 17 Jan 2014, 11:40, edited 2 times in total.
Nick H wrote:Lets take this back to real layman status: It is not very many years since I would have been glad of announcements like, "neraval starts here; swaras start here," But for the vast majority (and even for me now) that would be an intolerable interruption to the flow
So we think this is where technology can play a significant role, of course in an unobtrusive manner.
One of the things that we are working on is trying to make the content interactive and engaging.
As rightly pointed out some might consider it an intolerable interruption however if it was just a button that they need to click to dismiss the interruption then it is a win-win.
The fact of the matter is there are many people who have 'alienated' themselves from this art form because of lack of layered content on it,they assume it is all very complex and too hi funda for them! Which might or might not(art for art sake) be true.
Till a few years back,I personally used to walk out during the thani to have my pineapple kesari/bajji and coffee,it was assumed that it was the break,however when a gentleman, a rather well educated engineer who plays the Mrudangam took the time off, a few minutes to explain - I was aghast! I mean these were complex Arithmetic and Geometric Progression(the ones that I learnt in high school math) that these genius percussion artists were challenging each other with. I dont think I have ever stepped out on a single thani after that!
Another thing is the social way of experiencing the kutcherri, we are also trying to work out something on this and will be glad to incorporate any suggestions/gyan from the rasikas forum on this.
Another solution is to upload youtube tracks of tanis (non-commercial records of course) and then insert a flash comment where a certain important matter would be pointed out -- a nadai change, the mohra or the korvai or the kuraippu. More info can always be included in the description page. Again with the jury still out on the usage of various technical terms (but not on certain ones like laghu, dhrutam, kalai or jaathi), perhaps it would be wiser to use completely new and simple unambigious descriptions for these elements (optimized for English) :
1) Length of total tala cycle in terms of hand movements or the "major beats" (sounded and silent)
2) Length of each talanga again in terms of hand or finger (or foot) gestures (major beats).
3) No. of tala cycles.
4) The kalai -- I don't want to use sub-beat. In metronomes I had the problem where the software couldn't decide between nadai and kalai since both are technically "sub beat" according to it's vocabulary. I would bring in a term called MINOR beats at this point. The relationship is simple: 1 minor beat x kalai = 1 major beat.
5) The sub-beat - the nadai beats like tt, for trisram, t,t,, for khandam, etc... which are superimposed over the talam beats (over the major beats in case of 1 kalai over the minor beats in case of higher kalais).
6) Total number of strokes + pauses in a minor beat ( = the total counts per minor beat). I am particular about the reference to minor beat to free it from the clutches of "kalai changes".
7) The degree of speed -- well even in English this is a poorly defined thing. What's the second speed and third speed? To me though there are in fact 7 degrees of tempo which in chatushra nadai will come out to -- 1) 1 in 4 beats, 2) 1 in 2 beats, 3) 1 in 1 beat, 4) 2 per beat, 5) 4 per beat, 6) 8 per beat, 7) 16 per beat (can't process faster). Unfortunately it gets less simple with other nadais. In khandam for example it would be : 7) 20 per beat, 6) 10 per beat, 5) 5 per beat, 4) 5 per 2 beats, 3) 5 per 4 beats, 2) 5 per 8 beats, and 1) 5 per 16 beats --- you wonder why you don't hear anything slower than 5 per 2 beats?
Again I define degree of speed with reference to how many counts will be there in one MINOR beat. It's again "kalai-invariant". But here's the message. In Carnatic music we can go up to SEVEN degrees of speed. You could say that 1 count in 1 minor beat represents the first speed for all nadais. Fine. Then slower speeds would be expressed as fractions. I'm ok with that.
Throwing in kalai makes it a little more complicated. But a simplistic explanation can be made that in two kalai your 8 per beat becomes an 8 x 2 = 16 per major beat, OR it still remains at 8 per minor beat (only there are now 2 minor beats). I favour the latter -- it's simpler.
8) Tempo - this one is aesthetic -- chowkam, madhyama, durita, etc... This is again a little poorly termed in casual talk with kaalam being used for both the overall pace and the degree of speed. The unambigious defining factor here will be the number of MINOR beats per minute on a metronome. So that can explain how a 1 kalai and 2 kalai composition can both be in chowka kalam.
What do you think of this?
Last edited by SrinathK on 17 Jan 2014, 13:57, edited 3 times in total.
Parivadini,
This opens up a fine opportunity for you folks to do a moderated video discussion with
-prestacked viewer questions
-classic video clips of the masters preselected (say from AIR/DD archives
-panellists who explain the elements and answer questions
- AV/slide show type of graphics and explanations
I think it is workable!
Last edited by Rsachi on 17 Jan 2014, 12:55, edited 1 time in total.
Venkat, I am curious as to why you (and many others) could not simply enjoy the tani for its sound. It is, after all, music too. Why did it take the knowledge of the maths within it to attract you? I suppose I am the opposite: the maths puts me off!
Good one Nick H. But there is still no standard for all this in the English language so I believe I am not competing against anything.
I think between major beats, minor beats, sub beats and counts per minor beat, tempo and degree of speed (again in terms of minor beats) everything is neatly covered and you can define everything without confusion. There is no need to replace the words tala or talanga or nadai either with anything else. But then if someone started saying, "Adi Tala has 8 counts" instead of saying "Adi tala consists of 8 major beats", then
SrinathK wrote:Good one Nick H. But there is still no standard for all this in the English language so I believe I am not competing against anything.
You're competing against mine lol!
Avarthanam = cycle or bar
Akshara = beat
Muthra = pulse
This, I believe to be the most simple and expressive in Western terms --- but then, I would say that! lol
I also believe that it represents the majority view of the hierarchy of terms. It is acknowledged that there is a different school of thought, but why confuse the majority? Even the Brits gave up pints and furlongs!
(Again, it is the way I learnt it, so, again, yes, I would say that.)
Also, whilst these things are certainly part of the world of laya, there are not at all exclusive to percussion. All music has them --- so I find it hard to see why they should be a big deal[breaker] for the thani.
Last edited by Nick H on 17 Jan 2014, 14:14, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not sure what is to be gained by translating the concepts into English, because they are in a language which is not foreign to most rasikas! Even for those who have never been music students, wouldn't you rather, if you are new to it, learn the terminology in Sanskrit/Tamil?
Translation comes in handy when one has to explain to a non-local newcomer --- and they are the ones sitting enthusiastically through the thani anyway!
SrinathK, I am going to a birthday party, so unable to be a "guinea pig" for your suggested explanations: I'll try to get back to it tomorrow.
We shall call the "shirasaangam" - the poor rasika's laya vadyam and the one that comes closest to expressing what CM laya can do to us.
@Nick H, I am specifically NOT translating from an already ambiguous terminology. [-x I mean think about the levels of talam and what each of them involve.
1) Tala -- cycles, 6 types of talangas, major beats, the hand / foot gestures, total cycle length.
2) Major beats - affected only by jaathi and tala / talanga structure. Kalai invariant. Eduppu points like 1/3, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1.5 etc. are w.r.t. the major beat only otherwise it becomes kalai dependent !
3) Minor beats - Degree of speed, overall tempo, Kalai dependent, No. of counts per beat. Eduppu point can be determined in terms of no. of counts from the start of beat. 1 mb x kalai = 1 MB. So it follows that Major and minor beats are identical for 1 kalai. All the counting work happens at this level.
4) Sub beats - Rendering the nadai within a minor beat.
Well again the difference between tempo and speed - Tempo is the correct term for describing the pace of the composition and it will be in terms of number of minor beats per minute.
What more is needed in English? Besides, I also think this structuring is ideal for creating a metronome suited specifically for CM.
Oh well, in Sanskrit and Tamil, with all those conflicting terms, I am forced to do this : . I should probably translate now.
Last edited by SrinathK on 18 Jan 2014, 13:30, edited 2 times in total.
@vasanthakokilam, On second thought I would rather use the term 7 degrees of speed itself. Tempo is the correct word for describing the overall pace. Hence I won't use the term degrees of tempo. For example, a 1 kalai and a 2 kalai can both be madhyama kala, but the one kalai has 4 counts to a major beat where the 2 kalai has 8. But at the same time a chowka kala and madhyama kala can both be in 1 kalai in the same overall degree of speed (not including the effect of brighas) but still differ in overall tempo. So I'd say that tempo would be closer to an absolute measure of the pace whereas the degree of speed is a relative measure.
And no, I would not say number of sub beats per minor beat. It's number of counts. The sub beats as they are rendered by the hands or feet are actually a nadai - indicating pattern. A metronome software however would see it as a sub-beat pattern adding up to a total number of counts, but when you the human are singing swaras in a misra chapu or a trisra nadai the counting arithmetic is going on in your head whereas the sub-beats are being rendered by your hands. Hence I prefer to make a distinction between sub-beats and counts.
Having said that I should add one more element :- The speed of the complete tala cycle, which is different from both the tempo of the composition and the degree of speed and depends only on how long it takes for the whole talam to come to completion.
Again the whole concept of kalai (and the associated minor beats) is kind of ficticious. A 2 kalai is basically taking a higher degree of speed w.r.t to the main major beats, but reducing the speed of the tala cycle so that the overall tempo of the composition still feels the same (or slower). I think that kalai was invented because counting 8 and 16 in one beat is difficult at any tempo -- at slow tempos it's easier to count, but the cycle length is now so long that it is much more difficult to time the next beat of the tala. At faster tempos when it is possible to judge your beats, you can't even think that fast. The kalai makes it simpler by repeating each beat of the tala enough times so that you are mostly singing the usual 4 notes per minor beat (chaturashra nadai) and do not have to worry about how far away the next beat will be.
SrinathK, catching up a little, I like your comments on "speed."
This 1st speed, 2nd speed, etc, stuff is like the car manufacturers putting "5-speed" on the back of their vehicles, as if it only goes at, say, 5kmph, 10kmph, 20kmph, 30kmph and 60kmph. Patently, it is rubbish, and what they mean is 5-gear but the auto industry lived with the misnomer for a long time.
How about when the concepts are 1st, 2nd etc speed and nadai are combined? As in 1st, 2nd, tisra, 3rd, and so on? eek.
Dear @NickH, the reply requires quite some explanation. For example, the trisra nadai Adi Talam in 2 kalai (3rd speed)
1) Major beats : 1,,,,, 2,,,,, 3,,,,, 4,,,,, ! 1,,,,, 2,,,,, ! 1,,,,, 2,,,, !!
L D D
(If kalai is ditched while rendering it would be the 4th speed and not the third, but now at half the pace so that the tempo of the composition is the same)
2) Minor beats : 1,,1,, 2,,2,, 3,,3,, 4,,4,, ! 1,,1,, 2,,2,, ! 1,,1,, 2,,2,,!! (2 Kalai and 3rd speed in trisra nadai is 3 counts per minor beat)
3) Sub beats : 11,11, 22,22, 33,33, 44,44, ! 11,11, 22,22, ! 11,11, 22,22, !! (This is how the tala is mostly rendered although it can also be rendered in all 3 ways).
Total number of counts is always 48 regardless of how the tala is rendered.
When you change over from chatusram speeds to trisram speeds, it's basically a nada bhedam. To avoid too much confusion we can simply tell our audience that the varnam was played in 5 different speeds across different nadais.
So the 3rd speed for chaturashram is 4 counts a beat and that for trisram is 3 per beat and for khandam it is 5 per beat and so on. Anything slower can be expressed as 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, for chaturashram.
However for other nadais, since they are odd numbered, slower speeds create a new problem and it's no longer straightforward anymore. It requires a more complex approach. Because 2nd speed for khandam is 5 per 2 beats and when you run into this problem, you cannot escape from counting the intermediate pauses anymore (at least mentally). This means that your counts as such are frozen at 5 per beat (the least possible integer). Now your swaras have to span two counts each like this - (ta, di, gi ! , na, thom). Your "gi" is now criss-crossing a beat -- the gi falls a count before the next beat while the PAUSE FALLS ON THE NEXT BEAT. The same thing will happen in every other odd nadai. The beats of the tala are now no longer synced with the swaras, but they will fall alternately on swaras and pauses. This is what I term as going "OUT OF PHASE".
At higher speeds this out of phase problem doesn't arise as you will have 6 or 10 or 8 counts in a beat, which are whole integers.
In chaturashra nadai also, by choosing a 1/4 or 3/4 eduppu point and singing in the 2nd speed, you will ensure that the beats will ALWAYS fall only in the pause between two swaras, so you have to count the pauses. (,ta,ka !,di, mi !, ta, ka.... etc..). Now your swaras and your beats are always OUT OF PHASE. Therefore, in this variation of chaturashra nadai also, your least count per beat is now frozen at 4 and cannot go lower. The challenge now is to handle the pauses properly.
So now what? It's clear that just "counts" is no longer enough. Once you deal with the "out of phase effect", you have to deal with 2 layers of counting :
1) The primary counting that actually counts your swaras and keeps criss crossing across the beats -- when you say 5 counts in 2 beats, we are talking about this one.
2) The secondary counting that includes the pauses and therefore remains frozen at 3,4,5,7 or 9 counts per beat. In truth this is where your mind will be really working the whole time to ensure that your beats are falling at the correct position between the notes. When you want 5 counts in 2 beats, you will actually be making 10 counts in 2 beats in your head and split the svaras on alternate counts like this t,k,g ! , n, th, ! That is also why when singers or instrumentalists do this calculation, you can hear them sometimes add a staccato emphasis at the pauses.
While this may result in a "shirasangam" exericse, actually it's not so hard to demonstrate as it is to explain the theory behind it. One video or audio would easily bring out the two layers of counting that arise in the odd nadais at lower speeds -- for. e.g. listen to the opening of the second speed kalpanaswaras of GNB in that Brochevarevarura recording. Or better, the chittaswaram for Sri Mahaganapati in Gowla. The first line if sung in 2nd speed, will go out of sync will the M.Chaapu beats and will come in line every 2 cycles.
P ! , M ! , G ! , M !! , ! R , ! G, ! M, !! R ! , S ! , R ! , S !! , ! N , ! S , !! etc...
So the limits of a layman's instinctive ability to count are roughly here :
1) Anything in 8 notes per beat and beyond in Chaturashra nadai. Anything faster all sounds like fireworks, regardless of nadai.
2) 1/4 and 3/4 eduppu slow speed swaras in Chaturashra nadai is over the line. Also very slow chaturashra nadai like 1/4 speeds. 1/4 eduppu is harder because it is rarely heard compared to 3/4.
3) Virtually everything other than straightforward patterns of 3, 5 and 7 notes (7 is doubtful) per beat in the other nadais. Only one degree of speed. Simple Tisram (t,k tk, tkt tkt ) and khandam (t, tkt - t,tkt - t,tkt) are easily recognizable, Mishram not as readily obvious. Few people would recognize a sankeernam run unless announced prior. No question of counting 4 or 3 patterns in khandam.
4) Only kanakku in chaturashra nadai can be followed within limits.
Anything beyond this requires work to figure it out. Which is when a rasika is no longer just an audience member but becomes a proper music student. B-)
Nothing to get overly frightened about. 1-2 weeks of exercises will give vast improvements. It's just that passive learning by instinct has to be abandoned in favour of a more structured approach with deliberate thinking and ESPECIALLY WRITING down the patterns. #:-s
I guess this is all part of why I left off being a music student... and now you tell me I have to do it all just to sit in the audience? Oh! The Horror!
Awesome Srinath. I can see you are trying to bring some clarity and order to this. I have not digested it all fully but I will come back to this.
Noted your distinction between sub-beats and counts
Let me break the theoretically heavy stuff with some "sounds", whether good or bad.
This is something I did with Garage band a while back. This seems to illustrate Srinath's OUT OF PHASE stuff. https://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/trisr ... athi-nadai
The first two is normal stuff, but the third one is where the out of phase happens.
I have more of this at https://soundcloud.com/dabbler125 for other combinations but this is illustrative of this concept I think.
Back to the general framework Srinath is conceiving, one thing about songs in chapu thalas whose internal pulses follow the pulse pattern of the thala closely, they sound to me like it consists of an alternating Nadai. Thiruppugazh songs sound that way to me.
Another more mundane example, this is something I put together a few months back. My method was to come up with a nice sounding beat pattern first and then play something to that pattern. https://soundcloud.com/dabbler127/sivar ... achapufolk
This also sounds like mixed nadai to me.
especially accompanying the greats.
