Is Classical Music dead ?

askn · Post by **askn** » 24 Jan 2014, 11:49

Article on the state of classical music in America

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/cult ... _door.html

Get the feeling the trends are similar for indian classical music as well

Thoughts ?

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 24 Jan 2014, 13:15

In sales yes, but not on Youtube. There is a Paganini caprice 24 video for one that has 4.6 million views. Last time I checked, Mozart's requiem had a 9 million + view count and one piano concerto has over 2.8 million counts. But good luck trying to find works of contemporary composers there.

Not that classical recordings are costly. In fact old collections are absolutely dirt cheap, with individual downloads under $1. On average the old classics are about 10x cheaper than rock, pop and blues albums per CD. Check out "Arthur Rubinstein The Complete Album Collection" -- it will be the world's biggest CD edition for a solo artist according to Guinness World Records (TM). It contains 150 CDs worth of music and it sells for what, $150? But you'll probably find it on youtube for free.

Actually you can find entire recorded legacies (running into hundreds of hours) of some artistes up on the tube with great view counts in 5 and 6 digits. No one even cares about those uploads because the market sales are so bad and wouldn't improve even if all the videos were removed.

askn · Post by **askn** » 24 Jan 2014, 17:33

True

But was trying to get a perspective related to carnatic music.

Anecdotally , CD sales are non existent , the time slots on Radio & TV are diminishing , the only station dedicated to classical musc in India ( as far as I am aware ) is AIR''s Amrithavarshini in Bangalore.
Views for carnatic concerts on YouTube are a couple of thousands for each concert at best & except for a few MSS & BMK renditions there are no big numbers.

So the question is is there enough engagement in carnatic music or is it going the way of some of the older languages where the knowledge is limited to a small group of people ?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 24 Jan 2014, 19:35

Few years back, Vijay Siva replied to a question, Is CM rasikas numbers growing replied that considering the increase in the population and the percentage of rasikas for CM is on the decline. Rasikas demography -age for CM concerts must be above 55. With exception of abysmally small percentage of rasikas for classicism in CM, the majority of rasikas prefer light classical, cross over and devotional music. Well organized events with immensely popular performers continue to attract full house attendance. Only very few institutions of repute excel in the event management. Sponsorship for the seasonal series or concerts draw a mixed response. The freebie culture deeply ingrained rasikas unwilling to invest or spend. Problems of commuting are discouraging. Many rasikas reconciled to TV and Audio concerts. When rasikas did not support merits and scholarship of deep classicism during fairly long period of time, the decline is not surprising.
With good education and income out of employment, growing number of younger generation is looking for refinement. CM students are on the rise and teachers are mostly busy and occupied. Increase in sponsorship, even though highly discriminatory in comparison with their support for other popular stream of music, has resulted in increase in the number of concerts and engagements like CM education and appreciation events. Performers are seriously engaged in planning events to attract and increase the attendance. NRI growing interest and support to CM has resulted in popular performers enjoying patronage and being extremely busy and engaged.
Increase in artists initiatives and good relationship with rasikas; better visual and print media coverage; teachers encouraging and motivating students to attend concerts more in numbers; educational institutions-both private and public extending support to CM events and ensuring participation by the students; increase in employment and regular income through employment enabling CM artists remain in focus-learning and performing- in the socail events organized by the employers; rasikas determination to support CM, growth in CM, Indian Classical Music, will happen.

munirao2001

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 24 Jan 2014, 20:03

Well, CM videos are new material and frankly it is only since the internet age that CM has finally managed to reach out beyond physical boundaries. The thing about the videos is that there are simply not that many listeners as compared to WCM whose international glory days lasted till about the 80s -- our audience is WAY smaller. I don't see CM though going the same way as WM as it's audience is surely at the international level. International opportunities for musicians have never been better. Besides one area where WCM really suffers (and where CM doesn't) is the budget required for a full orchestra -- It's .... HUGE. It's the budget for organizing a WCM performance as compared to a CM or even HM performance that hits it very badly and CM is very low budget by comparison.

And back in the heyday, WCM used to have an eltist image associated with the rich upper class (and "white") tag to it. It is only BECAUSE of youtube recordings that WCM has broken out to reach hundreds of millions of listeners. It was never so accessible like other genres of music until now. But that will not help the sales of recordings -- which nosedived in the 80s and 90s and never recovered. Even so, WCM recordings are at least 10x cheaper than pop or rock or blues -- WAY cheaper. But still even that cannot overcome the culture shift, which is so great that there are few people who want to listen to it.

CM has just started going the web-casting way (much to the envy of recording labels) so I see the audience to grow at the global level. The question is about the local level. The fact that crowds for the top popular 10 or so vocalists fill the halls to the brim while many other venues are often deserted is a sign that there are in fact only so many listeners in total. Again quite some deliberate effort is required to pass on CM to the next generation (something which WCM has failed to do and the consequences on the audience profile are too well known) and whoever has any concern for the future of CM ought to consider what they can do in this direction.

An interesting phenomenon caused by the appearance of early recording technology deserves mention here -- the 3 minute gramaphone plates of the time gave rise to new kinds of presentation in CM adapted to the short format -- while being suited for those with short musical attention spans. In WM that led to entire genres of music developing around shorter pieces (leading to the rise of all current styles) and the "orthodox classical" long concertos or operas really suffered from the development. The trend and it's aftermath however still sticks in all forms of music all over the world to this day. The WCM recording industry was saved by the development of the LP and cassette player.

CM is taking more initiatives though the net. Check out that website on Oothukaadu Venkata Kavi or sahityam.net. I just feel that CD sales are low because of the price (and others will say it's actually vice versa -- accepted) -- gone are the days where I could get a cassette for 30 bucks.

If anything, I say that the recent efforts by big labels to unethically (and illegally) claim Carnatic compositions as theirs is THE threat that can kill the future of CM -- left unchecked it will wipe out free recordings & live broadcasts (and CM's biggest source of national & international access) all together. That has to be nipped in the bud.

All factors taken into account, with some care taken from the side of musicians, teachers and rasikas to pass on the wealth of CM to the future, I don't see CM going the same way as what happened to WCM.

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 24 Jan 2014, 21:18

askn wrote:Get the feeling the trends are similar for indian classical music as well
Thoughts ?

IMO,its too unorganized(ironical right!with 153 sabhas in 2013)),fragmented and zero sum approach.
This is ripe for disruptive innovation and get non-consumers on board.
To be honest,I dont think we have taken it out of 600004,yet,if we do that I am sure there is a huge upside for all stakeholders as long as we have a win-win to all.
VEVO has got into carnatic music ( http://www.youtube.com/user/MLVasanthak ... ture=watch)
Views of MLVasanthakumariVEVO might not be there as yet! But even in general its low because there is not much curation that has happened in an otherwise flooded market.

I think, CM is happening with the rate of new rasika's as well as the return user rates!

Cheers
Venkat

PS: In terms of numbers - Hindustani Music is an example (market size etc).Still negilgible to say the $4 billion japanese langugage or $1bn korean but I am sure we will get there.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Jan 2014, 21:20

askn, the article you included is about the state of western classical music in the U.S. and not the world. I would like to know the state of WCM in Europe and more interestingly, of late, in China.

Before we establish any correlation of phenomenon between that article and CM, it is good to get that context. Of course, I do not mean to imply that the state of CM is healthy or otherwise.

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 24 Jan 2014, 21:24

I find audience for Carnatic Music has grown tremendously in the last 5 years. KVN , DKJ ...even at their peak never had more than 80% of MA hall full. Only Mahrajapuram Santhanam used draw big crowds. Nowadays I see huge crowds for Sanjay;TMK;Unni;RAGA;Jaishree;A.Sairam;Abhishek;Nithyashree;Sudha;Visaka repeatedly. Youngsters like Bharat Sundar;RK Murthy;Sriranjani Santhangopalan; draw big crowds. Never I had seen so many artists drawing such big crowds as I see it now. This is despite so many other attractions. Carnatic music is alive & appreciation is growing. We can expect the NRIs to make a big impact in CM in the next 10 years. Already RK Murthy; Sandeep Narayan; Sangeetha Swaminathan have become very popular.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Jan 2014, 22:50

Good points, KNV.
Thank you askn for opening this thread, srikanth, VK, Venkat and others for your input. What you all say strike a chord. In the past when the same topic used to be discussed in threads, they caused concern. The difference now is that we are not talking about stagnancy anymore but of all the currents of change which have entered the CM scene--good and the bad.

The good thing is, as you folks have pointed out, CM is not that expensive to support as WM, is now becoming global, more young men and women pursue it and are even succeeding in making a career of it.

After reading the essay, I saw that there were hundreds of responses to it. I only read the Top Comment which made me feel happy. As a rasikA, what she says in the second paragraph of her mail reflects my thoughts...

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 25 Jan 2014, 05:45

Can classical music die ?That should be the question . And the answer is an overwhelming No .
The signs of life in all things classical , are visible , not through record sales , concert attendances .
But through our continued longings for the ultimate , the pristine ,the unfathomable .
Helen Keller once said , - I believe in the immortality of the soul because I have within me , immortal longings .
Yesterday my young son complained to me : ( And I have taken extreme care not to tutor him in matters of taste )
II just read about one TNR , in THE HINDU . You never told me about him. I have been listening to so many of his Todis all day . They are all so unique and wonderful .
And just last week he was raving about Mali's Darbari Kanada rtp .

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 25 Jan 2014, 06:03

Varsha beautiful. In lighter vein tell your son TNR Todi is best suited for Nadaswaram! Not for vocalisation! (But you don't like to influence his taste unlike me)

I like Gamkka laden Ariyakudi Todi, best suited for Vocal. Do you agree.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 25 Jan 2014, 07:32

"I believe in the immortality of the soul because I have within me , immortal longings" - then question should be rephrased from "Dead" to Immortal. I will support that.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 25 Jan 2014, 11:13

Carnatic music, to my limited knowledge is popular only to a very limited extent..

Most youngsters including those belonging to TN , like music of the type

Lungi Dance Full Video Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiaiqgYxXRI 2.62 lakhs

or Battameez Dil..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64i26A4TaJk 0.19lakhs

or..
"Kashmir Main Tu Kanyakumari
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodDteh-m3Q 3lakhs+

See the number of views

and here...

T N Rajarathnam Pillai - Thodi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJqbyKPVLlM 511 views

can you say...carnatic music will survive..

"I believe in the immortality of the soul because I have within me , immortal longings" ...we can enjoy only lyrical beauty...

It is a hard and unpalatable fact...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Jan 2014, 13:34

There are only two kinds of people in the world...

Those that say that there are only two kinds of people in the world and those that don't.

One of my favourite jokes, and I am now going to jump into the trap that it highlights:

There are two kinds of music in the world...
There is music that feeds the brain, the heart and the soul, and there is music that deadens.

We can find the distinction in different cultures and genres. We can see that much 'popular' music, with its limited melodic structures and repetitive, mind-numbing rhythms falls in the second category, but we don't have to move far, eg from Western pop to Western progressive, to find music of the first category. Usually it takes some intelligence, experience and knowledge to compose and perform; perhaps it also takes some intelligence to hear and appreciate, but in so doing it enhances the emotional and mental processes. It might be said that some music is "difficult" to listen to, and sometimes it challenging.

Sadly, the music that feeds brain,heart, soul and can sometimes be challenging is, world-wide, a minority interest. That is unlikely to change.

It struck me recently that I like easy-listening music. I had received various comments that I was to be found in more "heavy-weight" carnatic concerts --- but the truth is that those concerts are my "easy listening," and I don't think of them as being heavy, just beautiful. Similarly, a Mahler symphony is not, to me, "heavy," it is full of exquisite sounds and beautiful melodies.

There must be many many people who have similar ideas. Whilst we are still around, serious music, of whatever genre, will not die.

Here, we are very lucky that our music takes only a handful of people and very little equipment to perform. Even so, economics is going to take its toll as time goes on, but a CM performance will always fit into a living room, whereas a symphony orchestra cannot. It will be much easier to keep our serious music alive than some of the other genres in the world.

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 25 Jan 2014, 13:36

KNV1955 wrote:Varsha beautiful. In lighter vein tell your son TNR Todi is best suited for Nadaswaram!

Well here is an Audio of TNR singing the Todi - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGIacJj_HSs
NOW Be your own Judge

Cheers
Venkat

PS: It has 28,000 + VIEWs! and I am very sure many 'serious' rasikas did not even know that he sang!
PPS: There is his shanmuga priya also I got to know thanks to Gamakkam!

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 25 Jan 2014, 15:19

parivadini ...

This was posted by me at my group Nada Vrundam..Carnatic Instrumental Classics in FB on 15 07 2013
https://www.facebook.com/groups/307530229347885/
This was obtained years back from SP archives and posted at my blogs which Shri Lakshmanji happened to see ...
It is only the curiosity of hearing a vocal from a leading Nadaswara vidwan..
Beyond that I do not see much ....
In my experience with You Tube around 10000 for a carnatic music concert views is maximum exception being in rare cases..
even 28000 does not make a good % compare with many old hindi songs...plenty of viewers..
While Hindi songs are viewed all over India, CM is only from the four southern states..

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 25 Jan 2014, 15:22

@NickH, the key to easy listening is familiarity alone. It's simply that most people cannot overcome the initial feelings of being uncomfortable to new music and I don't know how many of them will listen to a piece long (and repeatedly) enough to gain familiarity with it -- but with a bit of time and patience, even an hour long concerto and entire 3 or 4 hour kutcheris and even tani avartanams can be familiarized -- but it has to be listened enough number of times. It takes about 45 to 60 days actually before a new habit becomes more or less second nature. But this technique allowed me to go from identifying about 30 ragas to almost 250 plus in about 3-4 years (identifying talas was much easier) and after that time, something in your brain changes and you can grasp new ragas almost instantly after hearing it just once or twice.

So it's not hard, but there's a way to do it and few people do it. This goes for fans of any genre of music. The majority are use and throw listeners -- very few listeners are actually in it for the longer haul.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Jan 2014, 16:15

use and throw...

I think that expresses the pop point of view, but I wonder if it is so different to what I would say, that music is an ephemeral experience. More serious music, more serious word!

I suspect that your viewpoint is different because you learn and play music as well as listening to it.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Jan 2014, 19:10

Srikanth,
Yes, familiarity breeds rasikAs!
You seem as though you put your mind to achieving better appreciation of CM.

I might have mentioned it elsewhere years ago--when we were kids, the Tea Board served tea every afternoon at school for a stretch of time--a ritual we used to look forward to (beats the tea ceremony I have experienced in Japan. Ah, childhood memories!). How many of us turned out to be tea drinkers later!

This is just an idea: when schools scarcely have music and art in their curriculum, how about playing classical music in the background at breaks? Nothing like familiarity and everyday exposure! Who knows? Those who are musical or are keen on listening to music may be drawn to it and soon want to listen to more!

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 25 Jan 2014, 19:24

Parivadani Thank You. First time heard TNR singing. I don't know why he chose Nadaswaram when he could sing so well. It is fantastic. The style is breezy & closer to brigga oriented singing & a lot different from the todi he palyed in nadaswaram (what a beautiful name for the instrument). I am used to so much of gamaka oriented music. Ariyakudi in particular. His Todi with those muthu muthu muthana gamakkam is mind boggling. I feel instrumentalists tend of exaggerate the bhavam . It does create an impact on the listener. The genius Veena vidwan Balachander used this to the limit. I therefore feel one should not imitate instrumental style in vocal music.

KNV

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 25 Jan 2014, 21:31

TNR did learn & exchange ideas with SEVERAL of the LEADING Vidwans tho' officially he was not a disciple of any of them. VKV

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 25 Jan 2014, 21:44

Arasi
https://www.facebook.com/knviswanathan/ ... re_comment

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Jan 2014, 23:07

KNV,
I have seen this before some time ago.

If it were a story, it's a well-written one, full of pathos. I say this a bit mischievously (being reminded of the way some people would listen to him in a concert hall with notions that they have taste and that they also belong to a class of discerning audience).

The Post had a good idea but how can one draw definite conclusions from this staging (though the playing was real and was of the same quality as one would hear in the concert hall?).

Turn it around a bit, and make it appear as if this was something which took place to see how a morning's rush to work affects modern men and women. I don't know how many would 'pay any attention' if someone fainted, dropping things with a clatter in a train station--let alone help the person. Are these merciless people? No, they are busy ones, rushing to get to their destination.

Back to the beautiful performance: of the hundreds of people who sped by, if one were to ask them if they heard any music in the morning when they were at the station, it's possible that one would say: Yes, I remember. I heard some lovely music and wondered where it came from, but I didn't stop because I had a meeting to be at. Another might say: I go to concerts often and wondered where this perfect playing of the violin came from, but I had to catch another train and didn't want to miss it. Another might say, I saw this man playing a violin and his face looked familiar, even my son wanted to stop and hear it, but he was being late for his piano lesson!

Well, make up your own stories--mind you, strictly based on the notion that this experiment was conducted to prove that people who are hurrying to be at their destination on time won't even notice a tiger jumping out of the train!

)

Well, I don't want to stretch this anymore. One thing that is evident from this performance (doubly so), at least to me is that children are naturally drawn to music!

So, parents and schools, offer them music in their surroundings to listen to first, before you push them into learning music the 'proper' way

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 26 Jan 2014, 04:44

My analysis is this,there is indeed an unique problem,but can be solved,since it mostly involves democratization of the art and the business of the art.Leading to expansion of consumption.

However the way we see it is in the way content is organized and curated as you can see we rely on a community driven model so for example even during the lec dem series our content (gamakam)went about interacting and collecting information from rasika's perspective,the point I am trying to make is that as a community the way we participate and go about creating network effect's is going to ultimately decide. Cutting a long story short - Press the Like (or Dislike) button every time after you see a concert,this helps,helps us a ton in our analytics! And that helps us in bringing out better stuff..FOR FREE.

As Rasikas not only can we make ourselves happy by consuming the content but also help other fellows rasikas by being a part of a network. I am sure people here would know about network's effect but would like to repeat that here,In economics and business, a network effect (also called network externality or demand-side economies of scale) is the effect that one user of a good or service has on the value of that product to other people. When network effect is present, the value of a product or service is dependent on the number of others using it .The classic example is the telephone. The more people who own telephones, the more valuable the telephone is to each owner. This creates a positive externality because a user may purchase a telephone without intending to create value for other users, but does so in any case. Online social networks work in the same way, with sites like Twitter, Facebook, and Google+ becoming more useful as more users join.

I would think that user generated content that is well organized by a community's(global) participation in the Carnatic Music world will go a long way and benefit all stake holders,sticking my neck out and saying,this job, well done will ensure that classical music never dies.

Cheers
Venkat

PS: For the academically inclined here are some suggested readings on network effects in the global music industry
1http://www.dice.hhu.de/fileadmin/redakt ... Wenzel.pdf
2 Beckstrom's law
3. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/magaz ... =all&_r=1&
4. The blog for the above and the concept of cumulative advantage -http://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2012/11/14/10716/

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 26 Jan 2014, 06:50

An outstanding bunch of essays that tries to answer the question - In five parts .
http://stephendankner.com/writings/what ... l-book.pdf

I am not stopping with just the link . Some day it may disappear but I wanted this forum to retain a few shining bits of it
The first four parts I am posting selected parts from the first four . The last one - the fifth - I reproduce in full . Carnatic Music mention is mentioned nowhere , but the thought processes have such a striking relevance . I ended up getting goosebumps
This essay will join the bunch of wonderful pieces of writing that stay as my bedside companion - along with Lincolns letter to a Teacher , Marcus Aurelius's Meditations , Palgraves Golden treasury of poems ......
Simply brilliant essay . Read on ...

Quote
WHAT MAKES IT CLASSICAL? PART I
So, one jazz student, after hearing a steady diet of John Cage,Carter and Glass for a week, thoughtfully considered what he had heard and asked me “It’s all very interesting, and I like some of it,but it’s not classical music, is it?” I was taken aback. “Why not?” I responded. “Carter writes symphonies and concertos; even Cage
has composed ‘Sonatas’.” “Because,” he explained, “this music doesn’t do what the older music you’ve been teaching us Beethoven, Brahms and Mahler – does.”
I’ve been thoughtfully considering his question over the past sixteen years.
….
The classical masters, through a process of accretion, perfected various musical forms over many years, and by their use, you are taken on a logical, progressive aural journey every time you hear a Bach fugue, a Beethoven symphony or a Chopin or Brahms piano piece.Modern composers don’t like to use the old, traditional forms.
Why? Because …..
Though composers are through with them, listeners aren’t; they still love all those old scales…. It may simply be a matter of unfamiliarity, composers have
repeatedly said….. …Music, after all, is a language. Understanding is a beginning…Is modern concert music still “classical”? Don’t look to me for an answer - decide for yourself. Yes, no, maybe…

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 26 Jan 2014, 06:51

WHAT MAKES IT CLASSICAL? PART II
Previously, the subject was music as a language – how it developed, over the centuries, by common consensus on the part of
the classical composers, across boundaries of era, nationality and style.….. Yes, one can go backand borrow from the past, but the trend has been to attempt to break new ground – either to build upon the past’s great legacy or to completely disavow it. That, in essence, is the state of modern music.

Today, there are opposing forces at work that neatly separate old music from the music of the last 100 year. Thinking about “form” – the structure of music – how it’s conceived by the composer and understood by the listener – is one way to compare and contrast the “before” and “after.”….

Themes were crafted to be memorable, and frequent repetition reinforced their importance. “Aha,” you’d subliminally say to yourself; “I’ve heard that before; it must be the main idea.” …. That meant fewer “aha” moments. And that, friends, was the beginning of the problem…
Borrowing broadly from both ancient Greek philosophy and modern physics, we can look at the world, and music, as subscribing to the opposing precepts of Becoming or Being. Metaphorically, the musical forms mentioned above are all Becoming … The devices of tension and release, of conflict,resolution and catharsis are all ingrained in these forms, though in different proportions.

Of course, as listeners, you are supposed to relish that part that is expected, but also take delight in the infrequent, unpredictable and surprising parts of your excursion. …As for the Being school of thought – well, this seems to be in greatfavor with young composers these days... Last week, when I put forth the question, “Is modern concert music ‘classical,’” I advised that you, the reader and listener, should decide for yourself.
With the perception, though, of the musical language of Being comes the potential for recognition and acceptance of an alternative. That “aha” moment is still possible, if you can learn how to listen “in the moment.”

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 26 Jan 2014, 06:52

WHAT MAKES IT CLASSICAL? PART III
In the two previous essays in this series I addressed the..
The combined genius of the classical masters throughout Europe and elsewhere over the last 400 years,
in their mastery of these skills and principles has bequeathed us a musical legacy unmatched in the world for its diversity and breadth of expression that continues to move us today.
How can this seemingly boundless torrent of expressive energy be explained and understood, and what has driven it and continues to promulgate it today? The answer, in a word, is ‘creativity.
As I see it, the components of creativity are these: a need to “say” something – to express in music feelings and concepts – both obvious and abstract; the desire to communicate. Underpinning that must be the knowledge, or craft, the composer needs to express these vague musical impulses by being a master of the language of music. ….

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 26 Jan 2014, 06:54

WHAT MAKES IT CLASSICAL? PART IV

The three previous essays in this series have explored musical forms, the language of music and creativity. Continuing the discussion, I’d like to investigate its most intangible attribute –spirituality.

What is spirituality in music? It lies at the nexus of religion and philosophy, and is therefore neither overtly worshipful nor about finding the path to living a fulfilling life, though it can be redemptive. Spirituality in classical music follows this middle road, seeking communion, from the source – the composer, via the performer to the listener. Music’s unique power to transcend meaning and reality enables us to potentially perceive the ineffable.Somehow, especially when listening to purely instrumental music,where there is no text to guide us, we intuitively sense that we are privy to a great truth, a transcendent awareness that the composer has captured, and that is being shared with us, in the moment, as we listen.

What exactly is this “great truth . We know it from its effects, not from what we can see or deduce. I compare it to the “dark matter” that makes up most of the cosmos, yet is invisible and, so far, undetectable to physicists. ….Am I conflating spirituality with the unseen forces of nature? Yes,for I think this comparison illuminates my thesis that the greatest part of music – its true, underlying essence, is that which is invisible - beyond our left-brain powers to comprehend. Einstein famously said, “The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science.” So it is, I believe, with music in particular – that most mysterious, and intangible of the arts. I feel certain that Ives would agree with Einstein.

I will go further: There is something of spirituality that is in the DNA of classical music, from its very beginnings as a self-aware art form. For 1000 years, composers have recognized that qualities such as nobility, generosity, exaltation, love, tenderness, dignity, honor and seriousness of purpose can be captured and infused, via the creative process into music. If you look for it, you’ll find it everywhere, wherever classical music is studied, composed, performed and heard. If we fast-forward to relatively recent times, we find that the fruits of the spiritual in classical music, sadly, appear to have withered beginning with Classical music composition today has largely abandoned, either due to embarrassment or fear, the innocence, simplicity and optimism necessary to drive the spiritual impulse.

As always, I look to Franz Schubert, my musical spiritual true compass, to rediscover what has been lost. In the song “An die Musik,” (“To Music”) he sets this poetry by Franz von Schober: “Oh lovely Art, in how many grey hours,! when life's fierce orbit ensnared me,! have you kindled my heart to warm love and carried me away into a better world!” “A better world.” That is what we apprehend in classical music – what the Masters have bequeathed us. Is it possible that we can, in these latter days, recapture the spiritual essence of their music? As Bernstein so aptly put it in his final Norton lecture, “We may not know what the question is, but we do know the answer: The answer is ‘YES!’”

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 26 Jan 2014, 07:03

WHAT MAKES IT CLASSICAL? PART V ( unedited )
Classical music. What is it? What makes it ‘classical’? And where is it going?
Defining questions, these. Music had been around for countless millennia in undocumented form, but it was the advent of a new breed of performing musician - composers - and the resultant invention of musical notation about 1000 years ago that allowed for the preservation of their works for posterity. Music notation gave rise to the transformation of solo and communal song as well as religious ritual and instrumental performance into lasting form – in other words, works of art; viz. proto-classical music.

The attributes, according to Webster, of anything ‘classic’ are: “serving as a standard of excellence; of the first order of importance.” Insofar as classical music is concerned, Webster continues: “Music in the learned traditions, e.g. art song, chamber music, opera, symphony...” Why define what seems obvious? Two reasons: it’s important, summing up, to return to first principles, and also because it may be that my central concerns in these “What Makes it Classical?” columns when thinking about new music will not be relevant looking towards the future. The game has changed, but have the rules? Read on.

When we identify a musical work as “great” or a “masterpiece,” such as a Beethoven symphony or even something relatively recent, like Benjamin Britten’s “War Requiem,” composed in 1962, we subconsciously categorize it as having ‘classic’ status.Taken together, the vast body of these works comprises the socalled
‘canon’ of classical music. To be deemed worthy of belonging to this exalted elite, there must necessarily be agreement from both the music-loving public and professional musicians that the composition in question is indeed worthy; it must be a true “work of the first order…”

How many masterpieces are there? The answer is that it’s within the value system of the listener - the ear of the beholder, in effect.Certainly there exist potentially thousands of compositions, in all genres, composed over the centuries, extending into the dim, far reaches of the past that quality as “great.”You may have noticed that we’ve been looking exclusively into history. Well, it does take time for a composer to get “elected” into the canon. Sometimes it happens fairly quickly, as in the case of
the “War Requiem”; more often, it takes longer – often a lot longer; Berlioz is a good example. Composers need champions to take up their cause: Bach’s music was unknown to the general public when Mendelssohn, in 1829, resurrected it, conducting the “St. Matthew Passion” in Berlin, 102 years after it was composed;Leonard Bernstein dusted off the Mahler symphonies after 50 years of relative neglect. As a result, Mahler now is deemed a venerated master and is perhaps the most popular symphonist, after Beethoven.
All well and good, now those terms have been defined and composers and their works have been codified. Where does that leave us looking ahead? Is the past a prologue to the future? Here’s where it gets tricky.
The spiritual impulse is not today what it once was in classical music’s golden age, from 1600-1900. Throughout its early history, up until and including Monteverdi, around 1600, ‘classical’ music was mostly choral music that accompanied religious observance to glorify God. After Bach, the secularization of music detached its
spiritual underpinnings as a pathway to the higher realms of experience and became dormant, in order to serve the mundane functions of the nobility, and later, the concert-going public. Music became grounded in the classic forms of sonata, concerto,symphony, et al - forms beloved, by the way, of composers,performers and audiences.

To access the latent spirituality of instrumental music, we have to intuit the “dark matter” of spirituality that is imbedded in the works of the masters. We need gifted performers and equally gifted listeners for this esthetic awareness to become palpable. Ask yourself: Does the concert music being composed today have
what it takes to forge the next link in the Great Chain of Being, to ascend to the higher realms? If not, then it has broken the chain – that connection with the immemorial musical past, and new music has, as a result, veered onto a tangential course, doing something else, fulfilling other needs. If some of today’s music does, however possess those timehonored esthetic sparks capable of inspiring listeners: conceived by composers, interpreted via gifted performers and transmitted to perceptive listeners,then we may hope to experience spiritual wonderment worthy of the works composed by the great masters of the past. That is the stuff of what will, over time, make it “classical.”

Postlude
This little book is dedicated to Ronald Markham, my music student at The New Orleans Center for Creative Arts, who in 1994 asked me a question. Here, sixteen years later, is my answer. I’m sorry, Ronald, that it took me so long to answer your deceptively simple but profound question.
Stephen Dankner

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 26 Jan 2014, 10:44

Arasi well said. One thing that is evident from this performance (doubly so), at least to me is that children are naturally drawn to music!So, parents and schools, offer them music in their surroundings to listen to first, before you push them into learning music the 'proper' way" .

That is my point also. Cultivate the taste at impressionable age. As they grow up they will rave about Santhanam & Ramabhadran: then after a while they will say TNS is mind boggling; One fine morning he/she will tell MDR is the ultimate & Raghu is genius. That is the way to cultivate the taste.

KNV

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jan 2014, 12:59

Gamakam, parivadini, Venkat

Thanks to your team for your service (inspired and effective, with so much of effort going into it). May your good work of propagating CM continue and gather momentum. We oldies are proud that the young brigade is 'doing' things to keep CM well and alive!

Thanks. Good work!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jan 2014, 13:12

Varsha,
Thank you for bringing Prof. Stephen Dankner's writing on music to us. A priceless gem. Yes, as you say, something we need to go back to, over and over again. I can wonder at all that he has to say and take joy in exclaiming, 'how true!" 'how very illuminating'!

The mysterious nature of music!

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 26 Jan 2014, 15:35

Varsha "Ask yourself: Does the concert music being composed today have what it takes to forge the next link in the Great Chain of Being, to ascend to the higher realms? If not, then it has broken the chain – that connection with the immemorial musical past, and new music has, as a result, veered onto a tangential course, doing something else, fulfilling other needs. If some of today’s music does, however possess those time honored esthetic sparks capable of inspiring listeners: conceived by composers, interpreted via gifted performers and transmitted to perceptive listeners,then we may hope to experience spiritual wonderment worthy of the works composed by the great masters of the past. That is the stuff of what will, over time, make it “classical.” Aha. Fantastic. :-BD

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 30 Jan 2014, 08:20

askn wrote:Article on the state of classical music in America

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/cult ... _door.html

Get the feeling the trends are similar for indian classical music as well

Thoughts ?

Here is an interesting rejoinder to this original piece in the recent issue of the New Yorker. There seem to be eerie parallels with our own invented Mylapore crises!

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... m=facebook

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jan 2014, 13:25

Brilliant.

I see that, when I commented to a friend at a Christian wedding last year, "you people have turned this into teenage pop," Pope John XXII had beaten me to it by over 600 years! Even more curious is that John XXII's words might even apply to some carnatic concerts I have seen.

Thanks for the link. Indeed, the "death of classical music" does seem to be one of its oldest traditions. Let us hope it goes on for hundreds of years more

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Jan 2014, 14:39

Mahavishnu,
Diva(i)ne!

Yes, perfect--if you can read one CM for the other

Thank you for this. I would have been excited, had I read it this week. As snow falls and cold wind blows outside at home, issues of The New Yorker are waiting for me to be read.

The writer asks: why are the americans so fixated on another supposedly imminent death of classical music?

He adds: The death of classical music is perhaps the oldest continuing tradition.

The infographic (a new term for me!) we see says it so well, as follows (the graphics are cute!):

What is Killing Classical Music?

1324: Popular music
1530: Lascivious music
1600: Monte Verdi
1609: Figured Bass
1683: Money
1740: The violin
1827: Beethoven
1843: The piano
1902: Debussy
1903: Money
1906: The Player piano
1923: Money
1930: The gramophone
1950: Money
1987: Money
2009: Compact discs
2014: Aging audience

The author calls this phenomenon an autopsy conducted on a still breathing body.
Classical music was portrayed as if it was for the snobs in 1935. Even in 2014, a popular TV program agrees withsuch a statement.
In that time span, two great concert halls were built in the country.

Pointing out many positive facts in recent history, the author concludes: these are not the sounds of death throes you hear; they are as sturdy as heartbeats.

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 30 Jan 2014, 21:34

Mahavishnu & Arasi .... Fantastic.India has more than 50% of its population below the age of 25 and more than 65% below the age of 35. Never I have seen so many youngsters getting interested in CM.

KNV

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 31 Jan 2014, 20:55

Lol that sheet!

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 12 Feb 2014, 05:23

Concept: Music technology: A perceptive prospect
Respected Musicians and Music Admirers,
I thought, it is prudent to share the following my perception. I solicit your valued feedback and if it merits kindly take forward in its realization/fructification.
My paper on “Music technology: A perceptive prospect” published by International Journal of Music and Dance, May 2013, for your kind perusal and solicit your valued feedback please
Kindly visit:
Abstract: http://www.academicjournals.org/journal ... 37A4066278
Full paper: http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf
• Scholarly music professionals and academicians like: Prof Yella; Akella Mallikarjuna Shrama; TM Mahadevan, Violinist, Scientist and Director (Retd), Atomic Minerals of Atomic Energy, Professor. Dr. Er. Ratnam V. Raja Kumar, VC, Rajiv Gandhi University of Knowledge Technologies, among many others, who had appreciated my suggestions.
• The US based Guru Swara attempt http://www.guruswara.com/ , Virtual Practice For Vocal Excellence is a good beginning, but it is not an end in it-self, because, it does not address the core issues and lot more to be done in terms of computer software.
• British Professors of Music have developed individualized Musical therapeutics, for seriously ill and suffering from life threatening mentally challenged children, which is yielding good results. http://www.songsoflove.org
• Also, techno-commercial feasibility and job potential exists.
Virtually, Wishes, M.v.Ramanamurthy,
68-1-3/1, Netaji Street , Ashok Nagar, Kakinada .... 533 003,
District: East Godavari, Andhra Pradesh, India.
Phone: Land +918842346644. Mobile +918985762499

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Feb 2014, 11:10

Pity SPAM isn't dead

MV · Post by MV » 12 Feb 2014, 11:29

As always, late to the discussion is yours truly. Still, thoroughly enjoyed the thread and all the musings and fantastic articles. So many facts ring true. As a confirmed worshipper on the CM altar, I have been guilty on many occasions of rushing away to do other things. But like Arasi says, I would remember that I heard a great song or whatever when I was.... And as Arasi says, I have a pile of New Yorkers to browse through. Mahavishnu that last one was the clincher for me. As Nick says 'Yes, let it go on for another 100 years'

But I can hear the view of CM as a business model or a product in a particular stage in its lifecycle (if there is one!) and actually approach it from that objective viewpoint.And I got thinking. Most schools in NZ stage an annual production and the better ones usually pick strong, if you like heavy themes like Madame Butterfly or Phantom of the Opera or like my son was exposed last year to Les Miserables. There is meticulous planning, training, costumes spanning 6 months. They come away with an appreciation of the 'classical' often more-they have learned words, songs, music and so on. So why not CM as curriculum in all schools? I think the freebie ruins the whole scene-that mentality has to be weeded out. As also the reward process to the professional artiste-business model!