A lot of dirt in the world of Carnatic music

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Jan 2014, 20:50

The lines between dharma-vrta-weakness can be so thin indeed. It is highly context sensitive. Our personal reaction to all this depends on how much of the context we are willing to believe in and which ones we are sympathetic to. This is what great epics are made of.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 27 Jan 2014, 23:19

vasanthakokilam,
Thank you for putting things succinctly and in few words what I wanted to convey. In tirukkuRaL it is stated 'guNam nADik kuTRamum nADi avaTRuL migai nADi mikkak koLal' (504) - Before befriending someone, one should look for his virtues and faults and after weighing both, conclude which is more. This is true of our reading material also. We all are endowed with this kind of fine judgment notwithstanding our own weaknesses - which we, as conscious beings - should be aware of. I was wondering whether I could emulate even miniscule portion of the virtues displayed by the characters like bhIshma and yudhishtra, arjuna, draupadi and not to mention kRshNa - the pivotal character. Mahabharata is an epic which is intensely human and extremely divine at once - it is up to us to choose what we want.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jan 2014, 00:54

Govindan, yes, that kuRaL is a great one to quote in this context for a lot of reasons.

This may be a detour but the message of this kuRaL is applicable in many related situations as well.

If you can bear with a personal indulgence, here is one practical use of this which has helped me deal with a few tough spots over the years.

Say I am upset with somebody because of something they said, or the tone in their voice or they slighted me or mocked me. At that time, my emotional reaction is quite intense and totally on the negative side towards that person. That is quite toxic but that is unavoidable, natural and understandable.

But before acting on it, at that intense state, if I recall the good they have done, good judgements they have shown in the past, the times they acted in my best interest etc., however small, decreases the intensity of the current negative reaction. That is extremely good. It reduces the toxicity of the reaction and it prevents me from further escalating the situation ( which is so easy to succumb to ) which I will regret later.

This requires training since we are all wired to react to the current situation with the auto emotional response.

(This of course does not mean we let someone walk all over us just because they have done some good in the past. Actually the opposite happens since the counter party is also under the clutches of emotion but the measured reaction communicates something intangible to the other person and the whole tense situation improves in a dramatic fashion ).

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Jan 2014, 18:45

An interesting analysis of the methods employed by Pandavas to win the war is presented by Arthur Osborne in
p116 to 132 of
Be still, It is the wind that sings
http://pgoodnight.files.wordpress.com/2 ... _still.pdf

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 29 Jan 2014, 19:48

kvc,
The author of this great epic is sage vyAsa. He was the grandfather of kauravas and pANDavas. And he has laid bare all the facts before you - both pros and cons of dharma and adharma. These facts are all well known even to children of this country - it does not need the 'wisdom' of Osborne to 'reveal' these to our country-men. Similar is the epic of Ramayana. These epics were presented to this country - not by any copy-right seeking individuals but by great people for the welfare of the general public. It is for the public the see the pros and cons of the happenings and decide for themselves what they should choose. If one wants to see the wrong-doings, it is all there laid bare. If one wants to go behind the happenings and see the things in their true perspective, it is again present there.

The quote of tirukkuRal which I have given in my previous post is again relevant. It is for the public to chose what they want.

I have seen similar argument in the case of Saint tyAgarAja also - gleaned from his kRtis. I have seen similar arguments in case of Mahatma Gandhi who bared his life in his autobiography. Yesterday I saw an article on Actor Kamala Hasan who says that he opposes autobiography. Because, a true autobiography is most difficult venture anyone can undertake.

All these epics are no less than autobiographies. If one looks for dirt, he sees dirt; if one looks for divinity, he sees divinity - the choice is ours.

Once Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was asked his opinion about Raslila. He said it is most difficult to understand it - it requires a thorough understanding of the Indian philosophy.

These articles are stale for me (and for those who understand Hindu culture).

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Jan 2014, 20:12

I stand by my admiration for the perspective set by Mr. Osborne, catching it better than many Hindus, eschewing the spineless argument that God can do wrong, which does not appeal to me, I am no atheist. The way he has marshalled the facts and the beautiful language in which he has articulated it are really inspiring.
With a balanced mind, we see dirt as dirt and divinity as divinity.
About autobiography, the views of Rajaji are older, wiser and more credible.
Anyway, I referred to it if anyone is interested in reading. An epic and classic are read, re-read and discussed. Criticism is an integral part of art and literature. Is this forum not for critical appreciation of music, though discussing MB here is an incursion?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Jan 2014, 20:13

Sorry, it should read..God can do no wrong.. in the first line end.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Jan 2014, 22:33

If one wants to see the wrong-doings, it is all there laid bare. If one wants to go behind the happenings and see the things in their true perspective, it is again present there.

Wrong doings or true perspective? Isn't the point of it to see as much of the complete picture as we can? If we are to learn any lessons, then we must see the mistakes/wrong-doings. That, to me at least (for what that's worth) is the wonder of these great epics.

though discussing MB here is an incursion?

Sorry... I never expected by brief reference to cause a complete distraction.

the perspective set by Mr. Osborne

It is a long, long book in PDF format. I enjoyed very much reading his description of meeting with Ramana Maharishi. Enjoyed is the wrong word: I was touched by it. But then I realised that there was 400-plus pages in which to look for your reference. This cause me to reflect that I have become too lazy....

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Jan 2014, 07:50

It is just 16 pages from 116 to 132. It is available online (url given above). I did not mean to point out anything bad about the reference to MB here. Sorry if it hurt.
I am going through the MB original translated by Mr. Ganguly and am very interested in it. That explains my butting in. I like to enjoy the epic without reverence or irreverence. It deepens understanding of life and sharpens spiritual focus. As someone suggested, we can have a separate thread to discuss MB if the forumites and co-ordinators agree.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 30 Jan 2014, 08:27

vkc
You may also like to read the story of Harishchandra - who was again defeated in a game of dice and who again got back his kingdom in a game of dice. For us who have become accustomed to seeing the Indian perspective through the Western prism and English education, certain dharmas are not readily appreciable. For example, it was a rAja dharma to play dice when challenged. It was dharma for wrestlers to fight when challenged - the story of jarAsandha is an example. If we enter into the subject, there is no end. We can keep on arguing and will never come to a resolution which is satisfying to everyone. No two individuals are on the same wavelength intellectually. btw, kRshNa is the most controversial figure of all - one may see him as an avatar - a womaniser - a friend - a schemer. In order to see kRshNa in true light one has to become Meera. The final teaching of gItA - yathEcchasi tathA kuru - do whatever you like - is the essence of Indian philosophy. No dogma can ever take a strangle-hold in this sacred country. Had it been so this land would not have seen Buddha. And all dharmas are only paths and not end in themselves - and is there an end at all?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Jan 2014, 08:47

I would request you to read what Mr. Osborne has written. We will discuss after that.
Was it Harischandra or Nala who played dice?
I see Krishna as Chellappa, with my own evolution. Everyone cannot be Meera and that is the spirit of Hinduism.
Let fresh wind blow and sweep away the polluted air. Let knowledge and good things reach us from all directions. That is the sustaining Vedic prayer.
Let us look at what is said and not who said it, that is the modern management jargon.
Spiritual quest is a universal phenomenon, divisions of religion and ethnicity are alien to it. Hinduism has been enriched by absorbing the essence of spirituality eclectically, and luckily it is not subject to a central control which will freeze it by reference to a past occurrence.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Jan 2014, 08:56

Re. Raja Dharma, I wrote '..The more serious Vrata, which is questionable from today's context,..'
Alongside, both in Mahabharata and Nalopakhyanam, the evils of dice play are starkly highlighted. Here is a catch..if it was Raja dharma, will it be evil to play? There is a dharma sukshma. Nothing is clear-cut unless we take a unilateral standpoint. The entire MB abounds in such sukshma dharma and readers are to draw their own lessons.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jan 2014, 13:11

kvchellappa wrote:It is just 16 pages from 116 to 132. It is available online (url given above).

Thank you. I downloaded and saved the book and will check that out.

vgovindan wrote:For us who have become accustomed to seeing the Indian perspective through the Western prism and English education, certain dharmas are not readily appreciable. For example, it was a rAja dharma to play dice when challenged.

Understood. It is clear from the story that the challenge was accepted because of obligation. But... what is dharma and what is social obligation? One may cloak the latter in the former with the aim of taking advantage. Is that not what happened with the dice game?

We can keep on arguing and will never come to a resolution which is satisfying to everyone.

Perhaps we should. The [his]tory may be static, but not so the lessons and the understanding to be derived from it.

btw, kRshNa is the most controversial figure of all

Indeed: this has struck me and seems to be one of the aspects that keeps the mind working.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 30 Jan 2014, 18:36

kvc,
I stand corrected. It is Nala and not Harishchandra. Sorry for the oversight.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 31 Jan 2014, 20:57

From Twitter:
Interview with TMK by Sumana Ramanan

http://news.scroll.in/article/tm-krishn ... ?id=654695

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 31 Jan 2014, 21:41

From Twitter:
I found this interesting (we saw a condensed transcript before):
Interview of TMK by Gopalakrishna Gandhi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Worii58xiJo

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Feb 2014, 08:49

I saw the video in full. From the two examples of kRtis - one MD and one T given by him, I have understood that he belongs to the category of sukkumi-Lagudi-ppili (சுக்குமி-ளகுதி-ப்பிலி) musicians who have no idea of what music is meant for. He had the audacity to ask Gopalakrishna Bharati as to 'what (Mahatma) Gandhi knew about Music'. And GB responded by saying that his one and half year old grand daughter, after listening music said 'aha'. Of course the child would not have said 'aha' but something akin to it. Which means that even a child understands and appreciates music. Probably musicians of his ilk do not know that music is instinctive to beings - 'SiSur-vEtti paSur-vEtti vEtti gAna rasam phaNiH'. And he writes history of Music! And what a strange differentiation as 'professional' and 'artist' (in the same person) after coming to a concert for performance!

"kavi jAla varENyulu
bhAvameruga lErani kalilOna jani
bhukti mukti kalgunani kIrtanamula
bOdhincina tyAgarAja karArcita (dASarathI nI RNamu)"

Even a dozen tyAgarAjas would not be able achieve their purpose in this kind of environment.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Feb 2014, 11:19

I listened to him sing the lines he took as sample. I did not understand the meaning when he said it as prose nor when he sang. But, I was able to enjoy his singing. If I want, I can look up for the meaning. I have a defective mind, the meaning often seems to me to detract from the melody which is sublime and conveys its own meaning. It is a great composer like Thyagaraja ( I understand by reading Bharathi) that finds a perfect fit between meaning, words, rhythm, melody and cadence). So long as music has melody and rhythm, it must transform us and transport us to bliss. How will we otherwise enjoy alapana and mere swaraprastharam? HM uses words scantily, but the music is powerful.
Mr. Parthasarathi writes in his book of T. kritis that it is 'DhariNi telisukondi..' not 'DhAriNi..' Even the swara fits DhariNi, a music teacher told me, but who sings it that way?
He writes 'mana vinNla kim..' is the right text, but I invariably hear 'mana vyAla kim..'

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Feb 2014, 16:39

'darini' is wrong. The correct word is 'dArini'. If it is pallavi only, then 'darini' could be correct. But when connecting end words of anupallavi (moksha), caraNa 1 (OlalADucuNDE), caraNa 2 (nityAnandulaina), caraNa 3 (mukti mArgamanukona) it should be 'dArini' only. Musicians, in order to create sangati (sundari), have converted it as 'darini'. Even if Mr Parthasarathy has written it as 'darini', it is wrong.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Feb 2014, 18:05

What will moksha dhAriNi mean? one who is liberation-earth or holder of liberation?
P gives meaning of dharini as 'pukalidam', moksha dharini will mean (P: moksham nalkum pukalidam aRinthukonden) refuge for liberation.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Feb 2014, 18:31

'dari' means 'refuge'. 'dAri' means 'path'. In pallavi, the meaning 'refuge' fits in. In anupallavi, the ending word 'mOksha' is to be added to pallavi first word. Here, 'moksha darini' will not fit in - here it means 'path for salvation'. Therefore, it should be 'moksha dArini'. Similarly caraNa words, 'OlalADucuNDE', 'nityAnandulaina' and mukti mArgamanukona' are all to be connected to pallavi. In all these cases, 'darini' will not give the correct meaning. It should be 'dArini' only. The word is 'दरि' and not 'धरि'.

Even seasoned artist like Maharajapuram Santanam creates a sangati as 'dArini telusukoNTi tripurasun - dArini telusukoNTI' - which is most absurd. One can have sangati as 'dArini telusukoNTi' or 'tripurasundarini telusukoNTi' and not 'tripurasundArini telusukoNTi'.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Feb 2014, 18:36

Govindan,
You say: what a strange differentiation as 'professional' and 'artiste'(in the same person) after coming to a concert for performance!

Yes, a bit misleading, isn't it?

Let me try to understand this...
If an artiste starts selling say, his paintings, does he become a professional?
If he gives his works away free, is he merely an artiste to those who receive his paintings?
If he sells them to an art gallery, is he a professional again?
If as a professional, he's asked to paint the portrait of a leader, say, Gandhiji at the Salt SatyAgraha, and all he paints is the seashore, and not the MahathmA in the picture, is it just art and not commissioned art which he is supposed to deliver per specifications?

In my limited view, an artiste is an artiste, well, a musician is a musician, and yes, once he starts giving concerts, he becomes a concert musician wherein he displays his skills as a performer 'without losing his artistic soul'. Performance art has certain rules (which change with the times, of course--but note that it happens gradually, naturally and not because of our whims).
I'm not a worshiper at the shrine of the AriyakkuDi format, but it is an agreeable format to me. The format quickly caught on, and doesn't seem to go away. Wasn't musical presentation as it existed good and wasn't it appreciated in those times? Yes, but AriyakkuDi (and other folks and forces too perhaps) arrived at a time when a change would bring in a breath of fresh air. In spite of many northern rasikAs frowning upon it, the format goes on, and very happily so, it seems.

Within this format, there is so much room for a musician to shape his/her art (!)--to live it, to live with it, practice and polish it, even give one's own stamp to it, and carefully present it on the stage with certain observances of what is required of a concert musician when he is on stage. That he is aware of an audience which has come to listen to him/her. It does not mean that you perform only for popular appeal

You display what your artistry and diligence have bestowed upon you, stay a professional on stage and deliver your goods--your artistic self supplying your professional self (performer) all the insight you have acquired in your life with music. That way, your artistic and performer self are at play on stage, you experience your music with your audience--for your enjoyment and that of others.

We are after all humans, and simply can't effectively divide ourselves into different compartmentalized roles. We have a mind and a heart which dictate our lives. The same in expression (the artiste) and the receiving of art (in listeners, viewers).

That's why, rearranging merely the sequence in presenting a concert is not all that it takes.
CM is an ocean, and delving in it, finding at least part of what you are after, making it your own, and sharing it, is a good way to go about being a performer...

I say all this as a mere rasikA who has not experienced the bliss of the sangIta sAgarA, except for a few drops of it

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 04 Feb 2014, 19:09

Nice post.
We listened to Sanjay yesterday, which followed ARI format truly, and Sanjay's creativity was not any the less. I found it strange to hear that the format damaged the art. I wrote a mail to TMK, but his answer was not helpful to understand.
As for a divide between artiste and professional, he clearly says 'as far as possible' which is good enough. His vidwat, grip on CM and openness appeal to me as one without any grounding in music, all said and done. i have listened to his lec-dem, talking to management students, interactions in svanubhava, the interview cited above, and have found it worth listening to.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 04 Feb 2014, 19:37

On ARI format, Sriram Parasuram of outstanding accomplishment in music has this to say:
"An artistic innovation in any of the performative arts needs to be tested, tried, modified and then honed and presented with conviction if it is to make any significant impact on the field. Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar's kutcheri format did exactly that both overtly and intuitively. And in doing so, it unleashed a revolutionary change in the performance of Carnatic music. I daresay this grand format of the Carnatic music concert introduced by Ariyakudi, with its structural variety, proportional logic and overarching appeal, .." in the context of his paying tribute to PMI.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 04 Feb 2014, 20:24

Arasi,
The statement of 'differentiation' is with a context and not in general terms. TMK was referring to his leaving the concert in the middle stating that 'artist' in him had nothing more to perform.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 04 Feb 2014, 20:52

The question was whether the book was written as a musician. He differentiated between a performing musician and a musician, and said that he wrote as a musician. He said he stood aside even as TMK.
Re. stopping the concert 'midway', he said as an artiste he was done for that day. To continue to perform would be a formality and not art. That was his take.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Feb 2014, 20:55

Thanks for putting me right, Govindan.
I however feel that the bigger picture is relevant too, unless you feel that what I said was like a hippopotamus rolling a pea!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 05 Feb 2014, 08:19

TMK asks a question 'What (Mahatma) Gandhi knows about music'? This audacity needs to be exposed. You may accuse me of repetition. Please have a look the link and - most importantly - the audience. Does it require aesthetic appreciation capability to enjoy music?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiOfCtgZp18

man abhimAn na jANE rE - let one not pride

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4YqgR5D ... VbE2pvmh1M

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 05 Feb 2014, 11:45

It is a wrong take. TMK asks genuinely what Gandhi knew of music. Mr. GKG answers genuinely and convincingly. In fact, it was DKP who made the original comment acc. to GKG and no one can read any irreverence in DKP's comment. She was ladyship personified and a Gandhian in true sense. Coming back to TMK, he has written a wonderful piece on Gandhi in The Hindu last Sunday. It is far from any mocking reference to Gandhi by him in the interview.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Feb 2014, 12:50

Yes, VG.
'kATTu vilangum kETTE mayangum madhura mOhana gItam' (music which moves even the jungle beasts) was dear to the Mahatma. What did he know about music?: that it was joyful, uplifted us, brought us together, made us focus on divinity and purpose. His prayer meetings included Rock of Ages, a christian hymn, and hymns of other faiths.

Did he know the science of music? Like many of us, he did not. He had better things to do than to pour over the theory of music, I guess!

Aesthetics is an often bandied about word--more so today. Let's call it music appreciation in our context and consider it. Think about it as it's seen in a concert (your example fits right in). Looking at the audience, it is obvious that they are all music lovers (at least, are fond of listening to music). They even practice it, as they work in the fields, pray in a temple or celebrate festivals and in family gatherings.

Then, there is also a different kind of aesthetics which has been cultivated over the centuries in the cities of the world, where the patrons of the arts listened to music in grand halls (they helped in building them) and the newly rich joined them as time went by, all music lovers
of cultivated taste.
Then, there are just rasikAs who don't know the grammar, but like listening to music.
Aesthetics reside in all of them.

Then, why are some folks not keen on music at all, or 'think' that they are not? Growing up not having a chance to listen to music, perhaps. Interestingly, even on this forum, we have heard from those who say they had no interest at all inmusic, but suddenly were drawn to it and from then on, they can't live without surrounding themselves with music.

Music has been enriched by folk music from times of yore--just as in arts and crafts.
Aesthetics then is an inborn human quality (even our ancestors the monkeys display this trait!).
The way we label it is a whole new thing, of course!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Feb 2014, 12:57

KVC,
Our posts crossed! So, it was DKP who made that statement, and TMK quoted it? Fair enough.

Then again, the context in which DKP said that is missing. Knowing DKP's generous nature and spirit, all we can guess is that someone might have said what a national spirit she possessed and she might have exclaimed: the mahatma is the epitome of it. Who am I? How much does he know about music? That's all I know of patriotism.
A stretch of my imagination, I know

but it sits well with me!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 05 Feb 2014, 13:58

Rather it was GKG who quoted it comparing his (a layman in music as he felt) position to interviewing TMK (who knew the onions). TMK wanted to know what Gandhi knew about music. Neither implied that it takes a genius to enjoy music. TMK has said elsewhere, and I believe, that music is in each of us. Your musings are indeed musical, Arasi madam, like at times you see poetic fervour in telling prose.
When you reach home and may find some time, please consider listening to the interview proper so that distortions in what I write may be cleared.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 05 Feb 2014, 16:22

kvc,
I again listened to the beginning portion of the interview. TMK says 'First I would like to know what Gandhiji knows about music'.
GkG replies 'Gandhiji was aesthetically untuned to music and would not have patience to sit through your concert'.
Probably I lack aesthetics to understand the conversation or any 'implied' meanings.
Thanks for your 'clarification'.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Feb 2014, 18:03

TMK says that the book was written by a musician and not by a performing musician. How can one divide oneself into two entities when one is still both? Did he merely mean by that: I have only written about music here and not about the performing art?

Adding to this, KrishnA uvAcha: even TMK isn't in it. I don't get it. The book surely wasn't written by a ghost writer and so, he certainly had a hand (a writing/typing hand!) in it!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Feb 2014, 09:46

Where 'real and purposeful' music is -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n4NHcgGyvw

DhAyee Akshar 'prEm' -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4e9p-_4HI8

Rangadu · Post by **Rangadu** » 06 Feb 2014, 09:59

TMK has found new ways of attracting attention, and ways that aren't close to anything musical. Only a decade ago we thought he was the brightest star on the Carnatic horizon. Today we realize we are not just wrong but also the star has fallen from grace beyond repair.

The diamond of Carnatic music is hanging around the next of a donkey like TMK who will never realize it's worth.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 Feb 2014, 10:06

Rangadu wrote:TMK has found new ways of attracting attention, and ways that aren't close to anything musical. Only a decade ago we thought he was the brightest star on the Carnatic horizon. Today we realize we are not just wrong but also the star has fallen from grace beyond repair.

The diamond of Carnatic music is hanging around the next of a donkey like TMK who will never realize it's worth.

What happened to

Rangudu wrote:Let us learn to respect the artiste, the critic, the space and the art form in all its entirety. This is just a humble appeal.

?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Feb 2014, 12:20

Ravi,
My feeling is that the artiste, the performer and TMK are very much one and the same. Then why all these splits?

It's his innovation of shuffling the cards (the concert list--an incomplete one at times) as if he's playing a card game with us that I'm not comfortable with.

His philosophical (aesthetic) musings are fine by me (we are all allowed that) but some of his statements are incomprehensible to me. Since several others feel the same way, it's not just me who is unable to understand him, I suppose.

As for his music, I look forward to listening to him soon.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 06 Feb 2014, 17:20

In my assessment TMK is not at peace with himself and there is a violent conflict going on within himself. The deeper reason is that TMK is an atheist( he would deny it telling the usual argument that irreligious does not mean atheist) See his first book he brought out jointly with Bombay Jayashri.In that book he tries to depict the great legends of the past avoiding to his maximum possible the unavoidable namely the religious aspect of their life ( a picture of the Puja room of GNB is the single exception(may be jayashri might have wanted it )
unfortunately for him 90 percent of carnatic compositions speak about God. Of course he can easily sing them without understanding or believing the content, But his atheistic conviction revolts.So he tries to sing without any bhava as much as possible.He believes that he has ripped the carnatic music of its religious content.. He calls it pure music and tries to make all formal jugleries of separation of the container and the content.
Why can't he compose his own secular pure music or set to CM the words of the DK or DMK poets.? he does not dare because he knows that it is worthless and that he will lose his audience as there will be no communication with his audience.
As any angry child,he throws a tantrum and throws out anything within his reach: the word kutchery, the format, the procedure, his ambition to see a dalit becoming sangeetha kalanidhi, his distinction of nuance between a singer a performer an artist a writer a professional a teacher,. In the process he eats the appalam and a little bit of pickle and gets up saying that he has no more appetite. Mahathma may know more of music than krishna about renunciation or tendulkar about cardiac surgery.
As in the case of any indian atheist, the TIME, the experiences of life and the grace of God he rejects will change him . We need indulgence to ignore his tantrums till then.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Feb 2014, 20:16

Please also refer to the following links -
http://kupamanduka.livejournal.com/31623.html

Muslims and Indian Music -
http://muslimbuddhist.blogspot.in/2009/ ... music.html

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 07 Feb 2014, 20:00

Excerpts from an essay -

'Rasa and Bhava in Music' by Dr. B Arundhathi, Senior Lecturer in Music, SrI Narayana College for Women, Kollam, Kerala

http://musicresearchlibrary.net/omeka/f ... 60e143.pdf

".........Music, literature, drawing and sculpture are the most popular forms of fine arts. Fine art is the communication or expression of feelings. It is actually an intuition that is transformed into poetry, music, drawing or acting through which the intended bhAva is reflected. The carrier of this bhAva is the rasa and when we relish it through an art form, we get the rasAnubhava. The following SlOka establishes the prominence of music and literature among the fine arts -

sangItamapi sAhityam sarasvatyAH stanadvayam |
EkamApAta madhuram anyadAlOcanAmRtam ||

As has already been explained, conveying of some mood is essential for an art to become a fine art. This is applicable to music also.

bhAva or mood is important in music. Hence a musician should know enough about bhAva, to be efficient in communicating it.

Even the music that does not convey some specific bhAva (mood), pleases the listener as such. Here the combination of sound is creating mere rasa meaning pleasure. This enjoyment is called sangIta rasa or gAnarasa. It is due to this ability to impart instant enjoyment even without carrying specific bhAva, that music has attained the prime status among fine arts. Hence music is called the finest among fine arts.

One important point to be noted here is that each rAga can impart sangIta rasa, besides the emotional moods it is used to convey.

The bhAva of music consists of two aspects - rAga bhAva and sAhitya bhAva.

rAga bhAva conveys the mood of the rAga, whereas sAhitya bhAva conveys the meaning of the sAhitya of the piece. When these two are interlinked and presented, it is a blissful experience. rAga bhAva can be conveyed through pure music even without sAhitya. When we hear a rAga AlApana, we enjoy it though there is no sAhitya in it. It is the melody that enchants us.........."

In his chAyAgauLa kRti 'sarasvatyA bhagavatyA', MD states -
"sarasa sangIta sAhitya stanadvayA'

Meaning of the SlOka - Music and literature are the two breasts of Sarasvati; One is descending honey - that can be assimilated and enjoyed directly, as is, while the other is nectar upon reflection - it requires reflection for enjoyment.

https://www.mail-archive.com/sanskrit@c ... 00127.html

My humble submission is, probably, according to TMK, Sarasvati has only one breast - sangIta. Has she undergone mastectomy?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 07 Feb 2014, 22:01

I listened to two concerts of TMK in the last two days. The one at BGS was overflowing with audience and the other at JP Nagar had about 250 listeners, who kept leaving by and by. I liked the second concert better where he sang 4 straight songs of T, he had no choice as he was asked to sing Thyaga Vaibhava. From what I understood, he sang with bhava (T, Bharathi said, is the only composer who has brought about perfect fit between the structure, melody and meaning, perhaps the bhava had to be complete when he sang T kritis). I found it enjoyable. RKP who cut into the concert with a speech said what TMK presents is music proper. Of course, it is his opinion, but I consider it must have merit more than mine at least.
At the end of the day, I care whether the music attracts me. TMK's music does.
Whatever be his take on the ARI format, belief and value systems, when it comes to singing CM, he does justice to tradition and does not seem to warp it at all. As he argues that he wrote his book as a musician keeping the performer and TMK apart, let us listen to his music keeping aside his angularities. That is my attitude to him.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 07 Feb 2014, 22:19

kvc,
In the interview with GKG, TMK says 'I don't care' referring to the word 'bhUjA nAyaka' in the T kRti. He says that he is interested only in 'ja'. And TMK and his ilk of musicians who 'don't care' about sAhitya, cringe for copy rights without paying even lip service to the great composers. What a shame!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 08 Feb 2014, 07:51

A rasika's take about TMK's concert in BGS:
"mIna lOchana brova.. delivered with utmost divinity.. I had sAkshAtkAra of mInAkshi amma right in the concert hall. The main tani followed for around 18 mins after nereval and swaras."

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 08 Feb 2014, 08:06

Here is another description by the same rasika about another performance:
"The bhakti bhAva was oozing out of both vocal and violin performances."

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Feb 2014, 06:58

Balamurali (2005), a vocalist, discovered new Ragas and a new Tala system it-self.
When MGR was in deep coma
and all hopes were lost and when final arrangements are
being planned to dispose, Dr. MBK was allowed to see
him through the glass of the Intensive Care Unit. He
returned home and prepared a 9 minutes music therapy
cassette. With MGR's wife's permission, he asked them
to play non-stop, with time to time rewinding. After 18th
play, he came into senses and became fit to travel to US
for medical treatment. Later he became twice Chief
Minister and lived long.

Is this true and scientifically documented?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 16 Feb 2014, 10:27

The purpose of music as given in the Tamil Book 'tamizhar vaLarttha azhagu kalaigaL' - http://www.tamilvu.org/library/lA417/html/lA417ind.htm is defined as under -

‘‘இசைப்பாட்டு இயற்கையில் எற்றுக்கு அமைந்தது? புலன்களின்
வழியே புகுந்து, கோளுக்குரிய புறமனத்தை வீழ்த்தி, குணத்துக்குரிய
அகக்கண்ணைத் திறந்து, அமைதி இன்பத்தை நிலைபெறுத்துதற்கென்று
இசைப்பாட்டு இயற்கையில் அமைந்தது. இஃது இசைப்பாட்டின் உள்ளக்
கிடக்கை. இதற்கு மாறுபட்டது இசைப்பாட்டாகாது.’’ (பக்கம் 118)

Entering through sense organs, subduing the cursed external-oriented mind, opening the laudable inner eye (of wisdom), in order to fixate joy of peace.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 25 Feb 2014, 07:38

Dear brother-member, cmlover, Today only I happened to go through this thread. Long ago I also came to know about this incident and I do not have any Idea whether it has been documented or not. But, in my experience as a professional-violin-accompanist having accompanied hundreds of Vocalists in my artistic life, Dr. MBK and MSG are the only persons having the svara-control (note-control ) in our Karnataka music while all others having only sangati-control.

In general, all the people remain under control of the language and very few people have the control over the language like all other Violinists being under the control of the Violin and only MSG having the control over the Violin. amsharma